Can Ruslan Chagaev be considered a possible great heavyweight? [Archive]

Mendoza

01-21-2008, 07:17 AM

Can Chagaev be considered possible great heavyweight?

A quick review of Chagaev’s amateur and pro qualifications indicates he has a chance to become an all time great. Chagaev was a great amatuer fighter, who finished with a record of 82-3. Chagaev won the 1997, and 2001 World Amateur heavyweight titles, along the way he beat the legendary Felix Savon twice before Savon won gold in the 2000 Olympic games and retired. Chagaev also holds a points win over Sultan Ibragimov. Chagaev’s three amateur losses were all points’ losses to quality amateur fighters like Savon, Krasniqui, and Chantuira. None were losses via stoppage. In terms of quality of name opposition beaten as an amateur, Chageav rates slightly above Povetkin, or Wald.

As a professional, Chagaev seems to have achieved a lot in a short amount of time. He is currently 24-0-1. The draw vs Calloway ( which was avenged by brutal KO ) was a fluke event. Chagaev had Calloway all but out. When Chageav moved in for the finish there was a clash of heads. The result was Calloway escaped with a technical draw. Chagaev has already defeated former alphabet champions in Ruiz, and Valuev. He defeated a currently ranked cotnender in Virchis. The young champion is but 28 years of age.

I believe the heavyweight division is in better shape these days, as the top talents in Wlad, Chagaev, Ibrgimov, Peter, and Povetkin average under 30 years of age. The five seem willing to meet each other in the ring. The result will be a legacy for the one who wins the most matches between them.

In the ring the 6’1” 225 pound southpaw has shown good hand speed, good skills, good stamina, good power, and surprising smarts. There really seems to be no down side to his game, except for average height and range, and average foot speed.

Box Rec has him at #2. Ring Magazine has him at #4. Fight News.com has him at #2. I tend think Chageav is a sold #2. In some past eras, I could see Chagaev as lineal champion. In the most competitive eras, Chagaev looks to be a highly rated contender at the very least. I need to see more of Chageav before quantifying or qualifying as a top 25-50 all time great, but my gut feeling is he will make into this range. The question I want to present the knowleldge posters of the board, is this. Can Chageav end up as an all time great?

Sonny's jab

01-21-2008, 07:24 AM

Isn't this the guy who just won a horribly untidy bore-fest with Matt Skelton ?

Yes, I think "greatness" is awaiting him.

Beeston Brawler

01-21-2008, 07:26 AM

Erm.................no.

Mendoza

01-21-2008, 07:30 AM

Isn't this the guy who just won a horribly untidy bore-fest with Matt Skelton ?

Yes, I think "greatness" is awaiting him.

I did not see Chagaev vs Skelton. I do know Skelton is a tough nut to crack. Though not skilled he is durable, can clinch, and bend the rules to go the distance. Chagaev was comming back from a layoff. The Skelton fight will not define Chagaev, other fights he has had or will have will.

McGrain

01-21-2008, 07:30 AM

Mendoza

01-21-2008, 07:37 AM

ChrisPontius

01-21-2008, 07:47 AM

Although he won comfortably on the (and my) scorecards, it was a borefest and i had expected more from him in knowing how to deal with Skelton. Skelton was gassed past the 9th and all he did was lean on Chagaev. Based upon this fight, he didn't look the part of an all time great anyway. Then again, neither did Ali vs Cooper or Jones.

One thing that did catch my attention is that he is a notoriously slow starter. I remember him losing the first three rounds against Valuev because he did little. Lost some of the early rounds against Ruiz as well, and Skelton's best rounds were the early ones, when it was still a boxing match instead of a leaning fest. Incompetent referee.

McGrain

01-21-2008, 07:50 AM

I think some historians / serious fans are slow to credit modern fighters. In some cases they go out of their way to unfairly submarine them in conversations that involve history, or comparison to past fighters. I am looking for good Pro or Con replies in this thread that go into some detail on where Chageav will end up which is why I posted this thread here, and not the general forum.

I agree that modern fighters sometimes get it tight in this enviroment, although the reverse is true next door (in general).

CON'S -

1 - He's pretty reticent. That might hurt him in tight encounter against an aggressive fighter than goes to the cards. It would have been interesting to have seen the cards for the Skelton fight if it had taken place in London, for example (I had that fight as a clear, clear victory, but the English commentator had it much, much closer).

2 - He's small. Inside, he looks fine to me, and if Skelton couldn't manhandle him he probably can't be manhandled. But perhaps a Klitchko could dominate him with range.

3 - He's a powerful fighter but he's not a killing puncher. This combined with his reticence may mean he struggles to climb out of a basement against a top level opponent. But that remains to be seen.

4 - Possible stamina issues. This may explain his reticence, too. Should have pushed for the KO v Skelton in 10, for example.

PRO'S

1 - Temprament. He is cool, cool, cool.

2 - Two handed. Rare these days & not to be underestimated as an equaliser.

3 - Mobile. In spite of appearances he can move. And he appears to have the generalship to utilise that properly. A powerful weapon in this current heavyweight division of dreadnoughts and plodders.

4 - Short punches. Whipser it, but he throws effective shots as short as Louis. They don't have the same power, but they are hurtful, scoring punches.

5 - Elusiveness. Againts Skelton he took my breath away. He was backed into a corner and lifted his hands for a short left/right combo. Skelton was hurt but waded and threw a wide left. Chagaev ducked it, rolled, and came back with another left. Skelton is not Tyson of course, but Chagaev didn't just avoid the scoring punch. He avoided Skelton's arms, his weapon head, his body, everything. It was a perfect moment in boxing.

Mendoza

01-21-2008, 07:54 AM

I agree that modern fighters sometimes get it tight in this enviroment, although the reverse is true next door (in general).

CON'S -

1 - He's pretty reticent. That might hurt him in tight encounter against an aggressive fighter than goes to the cards. It would have been interesting to have seen the cards for the Skelton fight if it had taken place in London, for example (I had that fight as a clear, clear victory, but the English commentator had it much, much closer).

2 - He's small. Inside, he looks fine to me, and if Skelton couldn't manhandle him he probably can't be manhandled. But perhaps a Klitchko could dominate him with range.

3 - He's a powerful fighter but he's not a killing puncher. This combined with his reticence may mean he struggles to climb out of a basement against a top level opponent. But that remains to be seen.

4 - Possible stamina issues. This may explain his reticence, too. Should have pushed for the KO v Skelton in 10, for example.

PRO'S

1 - Temprament. He is cool, cool, cool.

2 - Two handed. Rare these days & not to be underestimated as an equaliser.

3 - Mobile. In spite of appearances he can move. And he appears to have the generalship to utilise that properly. A powerful weapon in this current heavyweight division of dreadnoughts and plodders.

4 - Short punches. Whipser it, but he throws effective shots as short as Louis. They don't have the same power, but they are hurtful, scoring punches.

5 - Elusiveness. Againts Skelton he took my breath away. He was backed into a corner and lifted his hands for a short left/right combo. Skelton was hurt but waded and threw a wide left. Chagaev ducked it, rolled, and came back with another left. Skelton is not Tyson of course, but Chagaev didn't just avoid the scoring punch. He avoided Skelton's arms, his weapon head, his body, everything. It was a perfect moment in boxing.

This is the type of reply I was looking for. I tend to beleive that Chagaev has the best chin/durability of all the champions and contenders with the possible exception of Virchis. Chagaev can also counter ( rare among heavies ) and combo as you mentioned. As a Southpaw, he holds an un-familiarity advantage over most of his opponents.

McGrain

01-21-2008, 08:01 AM

This is the type of reply I was looking for. I tend to beleive that Chagaev has the best chin/durability of all the champions and contenders with the possible exception of Virchis. Chagaev can also counter ( rare among heavies ) and combo as you mentioned. As a Southpaw, he holds an un-familiarity advantage over most of his opponents.

Southpaw is an excellent point, and I always feel it's a problem that's exaserbated many times over when the fighter is an elusive one. But Skelton did actually take that away from him, there may be a blueprint there, maul, push throw plenty even if it's at the arms/thin air. A more compete fighter may be able to make that pay.

Mendoza

01-21-2008, 08:07 AM

Southpaw is an excellent point, and I always feel it's a problem that's exaserbated many times over when the fighter is an elusive one. But Skelton did actually take that away from him, there may be a blueprint there, maul, push throw plenty even if it's at the arms/thin air. A more compete fighter may be able to make that pay.

I guess I need to see the fight. I have seen Skelton before, and he's got very good durablity and guts. He really does. I hear Chagaev hurt him ( not badly ) a few times. Could other fighter afford to attempt maul Chagaev? Valuev didn't because he was getting hit flush with hard counters, and the giant seems very hard to hurt too. Like I said Chagaev has some moxie and smarts to him in the ring. His defense has greatly improved since he went pro.

McGrain

01-21-2008, 08:12 AM

I guess I need to see the fight. I have seen Skelton before, and he's got very good durablity and guts. He really does. I hear Chagaev hurt him ( not badly ) a few times. Could other fighter afford to attempt maul Chagaev? Valuev didn't because he was getting hit flush with hard counters, and the giant seems very hard to hurt too. Like I said Chagaev has some moxie and smarts to him in the ring. His defense has greatly improved since he went pro.

He did indeed hurt Skelton. I think with more gas and aggression he could have stopped him in round 10, that's my opinion. But he backed of. Now the Americans won't like that. I really think a disputed decision v an aggressive opponent is a possibiliy for him in the future.

To maul him you need all that Skelton has plus great power or great speed. Nothing less would get the job done IMO. But that is in real terms. In actual fact, judges scoring heavily for aggression could concievably give an better opponent a decision based upon that type of fight. If you understand what I mean.

DamonD

01-21-2008, 08:44 AM

He's young, he still has time to make a major mark. He's a capable boxer with a very good straight left and that cagey southpaw style.

At the moment though, I'm not all that enthused and I wasn't even before the Skelton fight. He's kind of in the same boat as Ibragimov to me at the moment.

Sonny's jab

01-21-2008, 08:58 AM

Mendoza

01-21-2008, 09:34 AM

To be honest, I think I was in the minority when I was picking him to beat Valuev.

I had hopes for him about 18 months ago, but dont think he looked good against Valuev or Skelton.

Then again, Valuev and Skelton are ugly types who are gonna make a lot of good fighters look bad. But I dont think either of them would have been ranked if they were fighting 20 years ago.

Put it this way, Chagaev needs a very good winning performance or two to regain my interest. Then, if he establishes himself as a elite performer we can start to talk about whether he has potential to be a great fighter.

But I wont be surprised if he's just another alphabet titlist playing pass-the-parcel with these belts. We shall see.

I picked Chagaev to defeat Ruiz and Valuev. I disagree a bit. Chagaev looked decent vs Valuev and showed the other side of the coin of his talents in terms of counter punching, ring generalship and defense.

I tend to beleive Chagaev is more than just another alphabet title holder. I think he is a good alphabet title holder with the skills, and background that will give him a chance to earn greater acclaim.

Speaking of Valuev, it appears the winner of him vs Sergi Lyakhovich on 2-16- 08 will be the #1 WBA ranked fighter, and mandatory for Chagaev's next fight.

It could be mere speculation on my part, but I think If Wlad and Chagaev win their next match, there is a chance for Wlad vs Chagaev in the end of 2008 in what would be viewed as a high stakes unification match with three belts on the line.

Bad_Intentions

01-21-2008, 09:42 AM

hell no.
and he should change his alias, he ain't no 'white tyson'.:-(

Bummy Davis

01-21-2008, 09:53 AM

Sonny's jab

01-21-2008, 10:05 AM

It could be mere speculation on my part, but I think If Wlad and Chagaev win their next match, there is a chance for Wlad vs Chagaev in the end of 2008 in what would be viewed as a high stakes unification match with three belts on the line.

That's a possibility.
Or if Ibragimov beats Wlad he'll obviously be confident of taking on the other champs too.

Mendoza

01-21-2008, 10:41 AM

he seems to be a solid guy who just edged out Virchis,Valuev,Ruiz and beat Skelton but did nothing to excite. Ruslin has showd some power in the past but not as of late and Heavyweights need power. He may need another old pro n his corner but he has beenoff for a while. In the meantime he keeps winning, close but he is not fighting bums

The power remark made me think. Virchis, Valuev, Ruiz, and Skelton have a combined 147 fights between them, and have only been stopped once ( Tua KO over Ruiz ).

I have seen enough of Chagaev to know he can hit. Perhaps it was the styles, tactics, and durability of the above fighters that lead to decision wins, more so than Chagaev lacking a punch to finish them.

Zakman

01-21-2008, 01:51 PM

Doubtful. Outside of Wlad Klitschko I don't think ANY of the guys around today has the potential to be an ATG.

janitor

01-21-2008, 03:37 PM

hell no.
and he should change his alias, he ain't no 'white tyson'.:-(

Isnt being called the white Tyson a bit like being called the black Elvis Presley?

Nobody called Mike Tyson the black Jack Dempsey or the black Rocky Marciano.

Marciano Frazier

01-21-2008, 06:27 PM

I did not see Chagaev vs Skelton. I do know Skelton is a tough nut to crack. Though not skilled he is durable, can clinch, and bend the rules to go the distance. Chagaev was comming back from a layoff. The Skelton fight will not define Chagaev, other fights he has had or will have will.
Like his razor-thin decisions over legends such as Wladimir Virchis, an old John Ruiz and Nicolai Valuev, which represent all three of his prior steps up to a world-class level? Most any heavyweight with a large portion of his career is obviously a possible great, but a likely one Chagaev is not.

ChrisPontius

01-21-2008, 06:40 PM

Like his razor-thin decisions over legends such as Wladimir Virchis, an old John Ruiz and Nicolai Valuev, which represent all three of his prior steps up to a world-class level? Most any heavyweight with a large portion of his career is obviously a possible great, but a likely one Chagaev is not.

Have you seen Chagaev-Ruiz or Chagaev-Valuev?

PowerPuncher

01-21-2008, 07:46 PM

I agree that modern fighters sometimes get it tight in this enviroment, although the reverse is true next door (in general).

CON'S -

1 - He's pretty reticent. That might hurt him in tight encounter against an aggressive fighter than goes to the cards. It would have been interesting to have seen the cards for the Skelton fight if it had taken place in London, for example (I had that fight as a clear, clear victory, but the English commentator had it much, much closer).

2 - He's small. Inside, he looks fine to me, and if Skelton couldn't manhandle him he probably can't be manhandled. But perhaps a Klitchko could dominate him with range.

3 - He's a powerful fighter but he's not a killing puncher. This combined with his reticence may mean he struggles to climb out of a basement against a top level opponent. But that remains to be seen.

4 - Possible stamina issues. This may explain his reticence, too. Should have pushed for the KO v Skelton in 10, for example.

PRO'S

1 - Temprament. He is cool, cool, cool.

2 - Two handed. Rare these days & not to be underestimated as an equaliser.

3 - Mobile. In spite of appearances he can move. And he appears to have the generalship to utilise that properly. A powerful weapon in this current heavyweight division of dreadnoughts and plodders.

4 - Short punches. Whipser it, but he throws effective shots as short as Louis. They don't have the same power, but they are hurtful, scoring punches.

5 - Elusiveness. Againts Skelton he took my breath away. He was backed into a corner and lifted his hands for a short left/right combo. Skelton was hurt but waded and threw a wide left. Chagaev ducked it, rolled, and came back with another left. Skelton is not Tyson of course, but Chagaev didn't just avoid the scoring punch. He avoided Skelton's arms, his weapon head, his body, everything. It was a perfect moment in boxing.

On Cons you missed:

1. VERY FAT - looked at least 30lbs over weight
2. Poor stamina
3. Arguably lost to Skeleton. I missed the first 3 rounds but Skeleton outworked him from rounds 4-10 although Chagaev landed the better shots, Skeleton outlanded him in a big way and it was a really shitty fight. Danny Williams beat Skeleton far more emphatically than Chagaev
4. Immobile - he may be able to move at times but hes too out of shape to take advantage
5. Not particularly strong
6. Average Power

Bottom line - Great? No

KobeIsGod

01-21-2008, 08:09 PM

Yes, if he recovers properly, I think it's possible. He's the best of the current crop. Sonny's Jab, give don't be to hard on him over Skelton, he was coming back from serious illness and Skelton would make anyone look bad. I was actually impressed with Chagaev's temprement.

He's the best of the current crop. I'm interested to see what happens next with him, put it that way. He's an affective fighter, and as has been mentioned, has up to ten years left to him.

:lol:
ha ha. Sorry, you're a great and knowledgeable poster but that is a ludacris statement. Wlad is the only elite boxer at hw. The rest are far, far behind or unproven.

i have seen his last 4 fights a couple of times. chagaev has a great left but he has been exposed as a one-dimensional fighter who lacks a power right hand and jab. he never leads with his right effectively and must land his left first to do damage. his lazy jab can be countered with a quick left hook all day long. all one has to do is move to the left to neutralize his offense.

people love to nitpick wlad's opposition so let me do the same here. yes, ruiz, valuev, virchis are solid wins and he just pointed skelton. Personally, i thought the virchis fight could have gone either way. But do u notice any similarities about the people he beat. They are all slow and low-skilled hws. Virchis is the only one with power and none of them throw decent combinations. How will he adapt to Wlad's stalking style and combination punching?

he let a handpicked opponent take him the distance in a sloppy and uninspired performance. people can say skelton has an ugly style but chagaev had chances to take him out but didn't let his hands go enough. he let skelton spoil his offense.

i dont understand how anyone can see chagaev beating wlad. how can he get to the chin? if he won't walk down skelton who basically bullied the white tyson around the ring for 9 rounds, u think he's going to pressure klit. he's got no jab or right. klit just moves to his left and jabs his face off til the cumulative damage stops him in 7.

So i basically have come up w/these conclusions about him:

positives: very smart, high guard, good footwork, above average handspeed, good power, great left throwing it from different angles over the top or looping it, at least a decent chin although hasn't gotten hit with combinations (virchis had him buzzed a couple of times on single shots)

negatives: he has to land his left first to be effective. non-existent power right hand. has a lazy jab. must be set to land effectively and doesn't like being backed up. doesn't throw a lot of combinations. slows down late. his top cometition have been identical: slow and not highly skilled fighters. does just enough to win.

he deserves to be #2 or 3 right now based on holding a belt and competition depth. right now, I'd favor wlad, sultan and povetkin over him w/o pause.

his alias is more embarrassing than flattering :yep So I guess that's a resounding NO to the original question. i don't see much upside either. He can be a Ruiz or Byrd type beltholder maybe a smidge better. A solid hw. nothing more, nothing less.

KobeIsGod

01-21-2008, 08:33 PM

It could be mere speculation on my part, but I think If Wlad and Chagaev win their next match, there is a chance for Wlad vs Chagaev in the end of 2008 in what would be viewed as a high stakes unification match with three belts on the line.

i doubt Kohl will let that happen or will try to prevent it. I heard the klits and kohl had a bad falling out. Wlad would maul Chagaev. Terrible style matchup for the White Tyson :patsch

brooklyn1550

01-21-2008, 08:36 PM

No, he will not be a great heavyweight. Chagaev has the tools to become a decent champion worth remembering from this era, but not the tools to be considered one of the greats.

KobeIsGod

01-21-2008, 08:45 PM

No, he will not be a great heavyweight. Chagaev has the tools to become a decent champion worth remembering from this era, but not the tools to be considered one of the greats.

as always, a very fair and good assessment.

but that avatar has got to go :yep Oleg UD

mr. magoo

01-21-2008, 10:19 PM

I don't know.

Only 25 pro fights by the age of 30.

Most of his recent wins were split or majority decisions in bore fests, including a close win over a shot John Ruiz.

I'd say he's good, but calling him great is getting a bit carried away at this point.

BOGART

01-21-2008, 10:40 PM

Haven't seen his fight with Skelton so I cant comment much on it, people seem down on him but people here are very fair weathered. Up until now I thought Chagaev was a good heavyweight but nothing special. He looks solid on film but nothing jumps out at you and makes you say thats a great fighter.

He has a couple nice wins and is undefeated so thats a plus. If he could beat Wlad than that would skyrocket his credibility but it won't happen. Chagaev will be looked back on as a solid heavyweight with some nice wins but not great at all. I'd actually be surprised if he still has his belt a year from now.

Marciano Frazier

01-22-2008, 03:33 AM

Have you seen Chagaev-Ruiz or Chagaev-Valuev? I haven't seen Chagaev-Ruiz, but I do know that a large portion of the boxing public had Ruiz winning or drawing in that match, which says something, given that Ruiz is such a hated fighter. I have seen Chagaev-Valuev, or at least most of it (it wasn't very entertaining and I left in a couple spots). The majority of the rounds were fairly slow-paced and non-descript without an overly clear winner. I thought Chagaev edged it, but again, very close, and a good-sized portion of the public had Valuev winning or scored it a draw. Even if one believes Chagaev deserved all of these decisions, it's hardly the mark of a likely future all-time great that he keeps consistently being run very close- to the point at which numerous reasonable observers think he could've lost- against the likes of these guys.

Mendoza

01-22-2008, 06:44 AM

PowerPuncher: On Cons you missed:

1. VERY FAT - looked at least 30lbs over weight

30 pounds over weight??? Horrible comment. Chagaev is a thick man. Maybe he's 10-15 pounds overweight. Here is a picture of Chagaev bending over a bit. Most of the fighter in the 70's look the same way.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

2. Poor stamina

Based on what? Chagaev had more left in 12 round matches with Ruiz and Valuev, and won the later rounds.

3. Arguably lost to Skeleton. I missed the first 3 rounds but Skeleton outworked him from rounds 4-10 although Chagaev landed the better shots, Skeleton outlanded him in a big way and it was a really shitty fight.

I did not see the fight yet, but no one said Chagaev " arguably lost " to Skelton. Your credibility is shaky so far in this post.

4. Immobile - he may be able to move at times but hes too out of shape to take advantage

I think he has pretty quick hands, and average feet. Hadly immobile.

5. Not particularly strong

Disagree. Chagaev is strong, and can punch.

6. Average Power

Only average power? Did you see his Ko over Calloway, Lane or Fields. They were huge punches.

Mendoza

01-22-2008, 07:07 AM

I haven't seen Chagaev-Ruiz, but I do know that a large portion of the boxing public had Ruiz winning or drawing in that match, which says something, given that Ruiz is such a hated fighter. I have seen Chagaev-Valuev, or at least most of it (it wasn't very entertaining and I left in a couple spots). The majority of the rounds were fairly slow-paced and non-descript without an overly clear winner. I thought Chagaev edged it, but again, very close, and a good-sized portion of the public had Valuev winning or scored it a draw. Even if one believes Chagaev deserved all of these decisions, it's hardly the mark of a likely future all-time great that he keeps consistently being run very close- to the point at which numerous reasonable observers think he could've lost- against the likes of these guys.

Chagaev vs Ruiz is decent fight to watch, which says a lot in a Ruiz fight. Chagaev clearly won the fight. He landed more punches, and harder punches.

I think Chagaev cleanly won the Valuev fight. Valuev says he lost, and anyone who scored it for Valuev doesn't know how to score a fight or is biased. For whatever reason, Valuev seems to get “ favorable “ score cards yet he still lost to Chagaev.

Ruiz, and Valuev were alphabet champions who won their share of title fights. Virchis might be good enough to win a world title. Beating these guys in under 25 fights is more impressive than not.

It seems some historians are quick to critique modern fighters, and sometimes forget to put things into context. Rocky Marciano had some mediocre efforts on his way up well into his career. So did Frazier, Ali, Patterson, Johnson, etc...

If the question were asked would these guys be all time greats after some of their shaky performances before they became champion, the answer would be unlikely too.

Chagaev has never lost to date. He hasn't shown real weakness in stamina, durability or skills as an amateur or professional, and appears to have added new wrinkles to his game as a pro. At age 28, Chagaev has many prime years ahead of him. If he keeps winning, he can be viewed as an all time great. While some might not see Wlad, Povetkin, Peter, Ibragimov, and Chagaev as legacy type of guys, they might be fighting each other in their primes, which is rare. Most legacy fights do not have prime vs prime match ups. There is usually a good age difference, a layoff, someone not being in top shape, an injury, etc....

Do I think Chageav will end up as an all time great? No. Can he be top 100? I think he is right now. Can he be top 75? Likely, as he is on his way here. Top 50? Possibly. Top 25? Unlikely, unless he keeps winning. Top 15? Only if he goes un-defeated or only losses once after winning a string of title defenses.

But the question here is CAN Chagaev be an all time great? Yes.

McGrain

01-22-2008, 07:12 AM

On Cons you missed:

1. VERY FAT - looked at least 30lbs over weight
2. Poor stamina

Hi PP.

1 - A bit strong. He's carrying extra weight, yes, but certainly no more than Peter. Also, he's a smaller man so he actually has a reason for carrying some bulk. I have no problems with his phyciality.

2 - There's an issue. We'll see how he does in his next fight. Obviously coming back from something tricky versus Skelton. I feel he finished in better shape of those two men.

3. Arguably lost to Skeleton.

This is certainly not true. I scored it for Chagaev by some distance. I wanted Skelton to win.

4. Immobile - he may be able to move at times but hes too out of shape to take advantage

This is the only thing you've said where i'm really "WTF"? Don't understand this remark at all. He's very, very mobile whether it's in close controling the movement at distance. He has great, great footwork too from the point of view of conservation, he doesn't waste a lot of steps. Your points about Chagaev's stamina have some validity, but I don't see that it particularly affects his movement when he's suffering because he's so conservative/smart. Again, I think aggression will be the key to beating him.

5. Not particularly strong

He matched Skelton who is very strong. Chagaev is very strong.

6. Average Power

I think I mentioned that he doesn't have enough power to drag himself out of the basement, i'm happy with that position - average is OTT.

Bottom line - Great? No

Not yet, that's for sure. We'll see.

McGrain

01-22-2008, 07:19 AM

:lol:
ha ha. Sorry, you're a great and knowledgeable poster but that is a ludacris statement. Wlad is the only elite boxer at hw. The rest are far, far behind or unproven.

Wlad is not elite for me, not at all. He looks used up to me. He looks gassed and he looks vulnerable, even when he wins sometimes. Peter for example. Wlad is waiting to be taken I think, it's only a question of time.

I don't neccesarily feel that you are wrong in calling Chagaev unproven - he needs Maskaev or Peter or somebody perhaps? - but I do think he's the better of the two.

barneyrub

01-22-2008, 07:23 AM

Mendoza

01-22-2008, 07:40 AM

Wlad is not elite for me, not at all. He looks used up to me. He looks gassed and he looks vulnerable, even when he wins sometimes. Peter for example. Wlad is waiting to be taken I think, it's only a question of time.

Wlad is used up? Not a chance. Wlad looks to be in his prime right now and has put on some dominating performances. Wlad has not gassed in many years, and has shown good punch out put and foot movement. Wlad went a hard 12 with a fouling Peter and had plenty left. Wlad is elite right now, has a real chance to be a top 25 or better heavyweight. Head to head he dusts many all x- lineal champions, and would have a real punchers chance vs just about anyone, but that is another thread. I'd rather focus on the under the radar Chagaev in this thread.

McGrain

01-22-2008, 08:41 AM

Wlad is used up? Not a chance. Wlad looks to be in his prime right now and has put on some dominating performances. Wlad has not gassed in many years, and has shown good punch out put and foot movement. Wlad went a hard 12 with a fouling Peter and had plenty left. Wlad is elite right now, has a real chance to be a top 25 or better heavyweight. Head to head he dusts many all x- lineal champions, and would have a real punchers chance vs just about anyone, but that is another thread. I'd rather focus on the under the radar Chagaev in this thread.

Sure. But if Wlad is raised in direct comparison I will of course comment.

For the moment I will only say - it looks to me like Wlad's physicality may desert him. Whether this means he might get dirtched by a puncher or gassed.

As for a puncher's chance, I disagree. He looks like a fighter who needs to be in the ascendancy for his punching to really be at it's best. I quesiton his mental make up too.

We'll see, (I hope - I hope his body doesn't straight out betray him like his brother's did, whether that's genetics, steroid abuse or just bad luck) but I will bet he retires found out.

Mendoza

01-22-2008, 09:15 AM

Sure. But if Wlad is raised in direct comparison I will of course comment.

For the moment I will only say - it looks to me like Wlad's physicality may desert him. Whether this means he might get dirtched by a puncher or gassed.

As for a puncher's chance, I disagree. He looks like a fighter who needs to be in the ascendancy for his punching to really be at it's best. I quesiton his mental make up too.

We'll see, (I hope - I hope his body doesn't straight out betray him like his brother's did, whether that's genetics, steroid abuse or just bad luck) but I will bet he retires found out.
Wlad has had no major joint, bone, or tendon related injuries, and like his brother has always tested clean as a professional. Most of Vitlai's injures stem from his days as a champion heavyweight kick boxer.

I think Wlad's confidence is sky high right now. His conditioning is great. I completely disagree if you think he doesn't have a punchers' chance vs just about anyone. Wlad is an all time puncher power wise. He has great reach and speed. Good accuracy too.

Wlad passed his mental make up test vs Peter and the Brewster re-match. He'll fight anyone.

ChrisPontius

01-22-2008, 01:34 PM

I haven't seen Chagaev-Ruiz, but I do know that a large portion of the boxing public had Ruiz winning or drawing in that match, which says something, given that Ruiz is such a hated fighter. I have seen Chagaev-Valuev, or at least most of it (it wasn't very entertaining and I left in a couple spots). The majority of the rounds were fairly slow-paced and non-descript without an overly clear winner. I thought Chagaev edged it, but again, very close, and a good-sized portion of the public had Valuev winning or scored it a draw. Even if one believes Chagaev deserved all of these decisions, it's hardly the mark of a likely future all-time great that he keeps consistently being run very close- to the point at which numerous reasonable observers think he could've lost- against the likes of these guys.

Well, Chagaev-Ruiz was actually a pretty entertaining fight. For the first 8 that is, after that Ruiz tired and held on a lot. It was not razor-close at all, in my opinion. I thought it was an 8-4 victory for Chagaev, perhaps 7-5 but a draw would've been more than Ruiz deserved. I also don't know where you quote from, but nearly all posts that i've read said that Chagaev was the clear winner and that SD wasn't representative of the fight.

Let's not forget that Ruiz, love him or hate him, has a pretty good resume and many people thought he beat Valuev.

Now, i did think Chagaev-Valuev was pretty close. In fact, i had it a lot closer than most people, but again, the consensus was that Chagaev won the fight. He did exactly what he had to do against Valuev: back away from him most of the time, not spend too much energy, then throw and land a combination, and repeat. Not very exciting, but it did grant him a victory, and fighting a 330lbs fighter with an iron chin and good stamina is very tiring. Barret tried fighting at a normal pace, won some rounds but had nothing left past the 8th. Barret may not be a great fighter, but he was a ranked contender nonetheless.

Now i don't want to argue that Chagaev is a great fighter, but in the end, the Ruiz and Valuev are wins over highly ranked contenders, Skelton was a fringe contender and although a boring fight, a comfortable win (i had it 8-2-2) and the win over Virchis may have more significance as he might go on to do more than beat up tomato cans/fringe contenders.

Sonny's jab

01-22-2008, 01:47 PM

Yeah, it's ironic Chagaev is nicknamed "White Tyson" but of his last 3 fights, 2 were bore-fests and it took a pairing with JOHN RUIZ to make it exciting.

PowerPuncher

01-22-2008, 02:11 PM

1. 30 pounds over weight??? Horrible comment. Chagaev is a thick man. Maybe he's 10-15 pounds overweight. Here is a picture of Chagaev bending over a bit. Most of the fighter in the 70's look the same way.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

2. Based on what? Chagaev had more left in 12 round matches with Ruiz and Valuev, and won the later rounds.

3. I did not see the fight yet, but no one said Chagaev " arguably lost " to Skelton. Your credibility is shaky so far in this post.

4. I think he has pretty quick hands, and average feet. Hadly immobile.

5. Disagree. Chagaev is strong, and can punch.

6.Only average power? Did you see his Ko over Calloway, Lane or Fields. They were huge punches.

1. Easily 30lbs overweight, watch his last fight, he has a belly, probably has 15lbs on his belly

2. Based on Skeleton throwing 2-3times as many punches as Chagaev, outmuscling him and outlanding him while Chagaev did sweet FA

3. You havent seen the fight, I watched it live minus 3rounds, 1 commentator had Skeleton up at the end. Skeleton had Chagaev on the ropes for the duration of the fight and threw 2-3times he number of shots.

4. He is immobile because he doesn't move much because hes a fat ass. Quickish hands yes - feet when he actually moves, which he didnt do much last time

5. Got outmuscled by Skeleton and who has he ko'd whos top30? No one

6. And what has he done against fighters that weren't journeymen? NO KOs against none journeymen

PowerPuncher

01-22-2008, 02:18 PM

Hi PP.

1 - A bit strong. He's carrying extra weight, yes, but certainly no more than Peter. Also, he's a smaller man so he actually has a reason for carrying some bulk. I have no problems with his phyciality.

2 - There's an issue. We'll see how he does in his next fight. Obviously coming back from something tricky versus Skelton. I feel he finished in better shape of those two men.

3. This is certainly not true. I scored it for Chagaev by some distance. I wanted Skelton to win.

4. This is the only thing you've said where i'm really "WTF"? Don't understand this remark at all. He's very, very mobile whether it's in close controling the movement at distance. He has great, great footwork too from the point of view of conservation, he doesn't waste a lot of steps. Your points about Chagaev's stamina have some validity, but I don't see that it particularly affects his movement when he's suffering because he's so conservative/smart. Again, I think aggression will be the key to beating him.

5. He matched Skelton who is very strong. Chagaev is very strong.

6. I think I mentioned that he doesn't have enough power to drag himself out of the basement, i'm happy with that position - average is OTT.

[b][size=5]

Not yet, that's for sure. We'll see.

1. I'd say Peter is 20-30lbs over optimum fighting weight too. Did you see the Skeleton fight Chagaev looked chubby.

2. I don't know Chagaev looked a bit bashed up at the end but Skeleton did a bit too. It was a messy fight though and I won't argue over a winner. I'll just say Chagaev didnt look impressive

3. It depends how you score - Chagaev would always land the cleaner shots BUT Skeleton definately outlanded him in most of the rounds. Again I missed the first 3 rounds and I won't be rushing to find them

4. Yes he has good footwork but his weight means there is no athleticism. What if there was someone with a skilled attack instead of a unskilled Skeleton?

5. How can you say he matched Skeleton for strength when Chagaev lay on the ropes and covered up for the majority of the fight?

6. In terms of contender level his power is average. Plenty of contenders have much more power.

ChrisPontius

01-22-2008, 02:27 PM

Yeah, it's ironic Chagaev is nicknamed "White Tyson" but of his last 3 fights, 2 were bore-fests and it took a pairing with JOHN RUIZ to make it exciting.

Ironic, hehe. That was actually the first Ruiz fight that i enjoyed since..... well, i guess the Tua fight. :lol:

But his nickname is stupid indeed and they should change it. Apart from the lack of exciting-ness, his power is hardly of that level, either. I don't think it's a shame to go the distance with Valuev, who seems to almost be impervious to taking punches, but he landed pretty much on Ruiz and never knocked him down. Ruiz is durable, but also a bit old .. Tyson knocked out Berbick who was also very durable. He should've put Skelton away, who is very old too.