Kudos to Povetkin and the Heavyweight Division

[seldomseenslim]

Sasha Povetkin, in only his 15th pro fight, just got through soundly thrashing a fighter who was 30 and 0 in a lopsided win, a fighter who specializes in making other fighters look bad, and this silly board is filled up with haters! Furthermore, the heavyweight division is better now than it has ever been. The fighters are much bigger and stronger than they have ever been before. But this board is filled up with people throwing hissy fits because their black americans have been displaced from the heavyweights. Same with their tv announcers, Little Maxie and the rest. Their earlier overhyped black american champs need to have an asterisk put next to their names because eastern european fighters were not able to turn pro in their day. And no, Povetkin is not yet in the same league as Wlad. Nobody is.

[DamonD]

So, up with whitie then?

[richie leon]

I thought Chambers was outboxing him early, he should have worked harder throughout the fight. I respect what Povetkin has accomplished in 15 fights, but although he showed a lot of heart and determination last night, he looked very vulnerable to me. I've never been much of a Klitschko fan, but i see Wlad destroying this guy. I mean, it'll be UGLY.
I'll say this though: last night's fight was good and pretty entertaining IMO. There ARE in fact good fights to see at heavyweight, contrary to popular belief.

[richie leon]

BTW, i give Dimitrenko a better shot at beating Klitschko. The only heavy weight who can match him for size AND speed. Plus, he has an equally shaky chin, which should make for a fun fight.

[MrSmall]

I really don't think all this "Chambers was outboxing him" stuff is true. I watched the fight, and Chambers was landing maybe 10 clean punches a round, while Povetkin was landing maybe 25 partially blocked ones, but some were getting through. Chambers' quickness and counter jab/right were hitting Sacha pretty suddenly, but they simply weren't enough to get him rounds.

[seldomseenslim]

If they're saying Povetkin, at 227, is "undersized" for a heavy now, where does that leave men who weigh 200-210? Boxing badly needs at the very least one additional heavy weight classification.

[Alo2006]

I thought Chambers was outboxing him early, he should have worked harder throughout the fight. I respect what Povetkin has accomplished in 15 fights, but although he showed a lot of heart and determination last night, he looked very vulnerable to me. I've never been much of a Klitschko fan, but i see Wlad destroying this guy. I mean, it'll be UGLY.
I'll say this though: last night's fight was good and pretty entertaining IMO. There ARE in fact good fights to see at heavyweight, contrary to popular belief.


I agree :yep Congrads to him :good

[RUSKULL]

I agree slim........................100%.

[MagnificentMatt]

I'm more curious to find out how Chambers next fight goes...

[FROST]

a lopsided win?? Have you seen the fight?

I had Povetkin winning too, but it was a close fight. There's compubox stats for the fight somewhere in another thread here, Povetkin had a much higher punch output than Chambers but the number of punches landed by both was about the same. Chambers also scored the harder, more accurate punches imo.

It was a good win for Povetkin tho, he showed he can rally after a bad start and has enough stamina to finish strong in the championship rds - that's more important for him to gain experience than another easy win.

The HW divison better now than ever?? Hell no, there's one good HW out there, Klitschko, who could be top ten in the 90s or 70s, that's it. Many HWs may be bigger and stronger now than before, but that don't mean that they are better. It's the skills that count. If not, Valuev would be the best HW ever... BTW, the beltholders other than Klitschko - Ibragimov, Maskaev and Chagaev - are not that big, nor is Povetkin...

[audio101]

Chambers could of easily out boxed him if he had the heart and motivation to do so, but for what ever reasons he was never in the fight.

[seldomseenslim]

a lopsided win?? Have you seen the fight?

I had Povetkin winning too, but it was a close fight...

___________________

117-111 119-109 116-112

[seldomseenslim]

Chambers could of easily out boxed him...

__________


And pigs could fly...


To tell the truth, I missed most of the fight and tuned in for the last few rounds. You could see that Chambers' corner knew he was losing and kept telling him he needed a KO. He was doing virtually nothing except covering up. He was doing a good job of covering up, though.

[Punisher33]

a lopsided win?? Have you seen the fight?

I had Povetkin winning too, but it was a close fight. There's compubox stats for the fight somewhere in another thread here, Povetkin had a much higher punch output than Chambers but the number of punches landed by both was about the same. Chambers also scored the harder, more accurate punches imo.

It was a good win for Povetkin tho, he showed he can rally after a bad start and has enough stamina to finish strong in the championship rds - that's more important for him to gain experience than another easy win.

The HW divison better now than ever?? Hell no, there's one good HW out there, Klitschko, who could be top ten in the 90s or 70s, that's it. Many HWs may be bigger and stronger now than before, but that don't mean that they are better. It's the skills that count. If not, Valuev would be the best HW ever... BTW, the beltholders other than Klitschko - Ibragimov, Maskaev and Chagaev - are not that big, nor is Povetkin... My thoughts exactly, being bigger and stronger never made a man more talented, if anything it makes you less skilled and clumsy in the ring. Povetkin is an above average Heavyweight at best, the 05-06 version of Brewster would of had a field day with a fighter like him, if Chambers can stun him, a guy like Brewster, Wlad or Peter would knock him out easily.

[Strike]

Furthermore, the heavyweight division is better now than it has ever been.

Stupidest. Post. Ever.

[AmazingHook]

Anyone who think the heavyweight division is better than ever today can't really be serious. That's the worst thing I've heard in a long time


As for American fighters....Eddie Chambers is only a descent fighter but he's still one of the best american Heavyweights so that's says a lot about how much the american HW scene suck right now.

[seldomseenslim]

"Anyone who think the heavyweight division is better than ever today can't really be serious."

That's the Politically Correct American Party Line, repeated ad nauseum by the talking heads on the tv, the Kellermans, etc., and parroted on these boxing forums.

They are throwing their hissy fits because black Americans have been totally deposed from the heavyweight division.

In fact, all of their media-hyped champs of the recent past - the Alis, Fraziers, etc. - need to have an asterisk next to their names because eastern Europeans were not allowed to turn pro. Now they are, and the results are obvious.

[Punisher33]

"Anyone who think the heavyweight division is better than ever today can't really be serious."

That's the Politically Correct American Party Line, repeated ad nauseum by the talking heads on the tv, the Kellermans, etc., and parroted on these boxing forums.

They are throwing their hissy fits because black Americans have been totally deposed from the heavyweight division.

In fact, all of their media-hyped champs of the recent past - the Alis, Fraziers, etc. - need to have an asterisk next to their names because eastern Europeans were not allowed to turn pro. Now they are, and the results are obvious. Ok, whats your excuse for 10-15 years ago when the Heavyweight scene was dominated by talented American fighters? I think it's obvious to most people that has watched boxing over the past 20 years, the talent level of most of these so called "Big Heavyweights", are limmited. I could see why the Heavyweight division is the laughing stock in boxing right now, no personalities, bad physical shape, and limmited boxing skills, you sir our clearly the minority in your way of thinking.

[Strike]

"Anyone who think the heavyweight division is better than ever today can't really be serious."

That's the Politically Correct American Party Line, repeated ad nauseum by the talking heads on the tv, the Kellermans, etc., and parroted on these boxing forums.

They are throwing their hissy fits because black Americans have been totally deposed from the heavyweight division.

In fact, all of their media-hyped champs of the recent past - the Alis, Fraziers, etc. - need to have an asterisk next to their names because eastern Europeans were not allowed to turn pro. Now they are, and the results are obvious.

So why then retard, are washed up old fighters who couldn't win a title in their primes able to win world titles now? Guys like Briggs who could not win a title at their best, are able to win one now by KO as old, past it fighters...

Guys like Matt Skelton who are 40, have only been boxing for 6 years are able to go 12 rounds winning a few with one of the "world champions" of todays pathetic era.

Fighters like Holyfield who can barely walk and are so shot it is untrue are losing by 5 or 6 rounds in World Title fights to unbeaten prime "champs".:lol:

It is the most pathetic era of any division at any period of the sports history and if Wlad quit tommorow a weak chinned, average stamina, cruiserweight like Haye could clean up.

[seldomseenslim]

So why then retard...


_____________________


You need to put a comma between then and retard. I wouldn't normally correct grammar on a boxing forum - participants not being generally noted for their intellectual acuity - but if someone is going to take it upon himself to address me as "retard"...

[seldomseenslim]

Ok, whats your excuse for 10-15 years ago when the Heavyweight scene was dominated by talented American fighters? I think it's obvious to most people that has watched boxing over the past 20 years, the talent level of most of these so called "Big Heavyweights", are limmited. I could see why the Heavyweight division is the laughing stock in boxing right now, no personalities, bad physical shape, and limmited boxing skills, you sir our clearly the minority in your way of thinking.


First of all, you and your friends are the ones trying to come up with excuses, excuses for why black americans have been deposed from the heavyweight division - and, again, the heavyweight division is only the "laughing stock" of you and your friends and the talking heads on the US media, not the rest of the world!

10 or 15 years ago eastern europeans had not yet established themselves in the pros.

Exhibit A and Exhibit B:

It is almost universally accepted that both Doug Jones and Jimmy Young beat Muhammed Ali fair and square but were then robbed by the judges. I submit that Chambers is much better and bigger and stronger than either Jones or Young. Henry Cooper also beat Ali in the first fight, but due to Dundee's cheating, Ali got an extended rest period between rounds. The record books need to be corrected, and Cooper declared the winner. Cooper only weighed 185, Douglas 188. Chambers weighed 220.

[Punisher33]

First of all, you and your friends are the ones trying to come up with excuses, excuses for why black americans have been deposed from the heavyweight division - and, again, the heavyweight division is only the "laughing stock" of you and your friends and the talking heads on the US media, not the rest of the world!

10 or 15 years ago eastern europeans had not yet established themselves in the pros.

Exhibit A and Exhibit B:

It is almost universally accepted that both Doug Jones and Jimmy Young beat Muhammed Ali fair and square but were then robbed by the judges. I submit that Chambers is much better and bigger and stronger than either Jones or Young. Henry Cooper also beat Ali in the first fight, but due to Dundee's cheating, Ali got an extended rest period between rounds. The record books need to be corrected, and Cooper declared the winner. Cooper only weighed 185, Douglas 188. Chambers weighed 220. I dont understand how you can accuse me of making excuses when just in this post you stated 10 or 15 years ago eastern Euros had not yet established themselves, that sounds like a big excuse to me, maybe it was because the Americans were so talented they couldnt compete with them at the top level.

As far as Ali is concerned, in his younger days he was so talented you coudnt keep your eyes of him, which is a far cry from todays talent limmited Heavyweights.

[G_RapPBF]

Sasha Povetkin, in only his 15th pro fight, just got through soundly thrashing a fighter who was 30 and 0 in a lopsided win, a fighter who specializes in making other fighters look bad, and this silly board is filled up with haters! Furthermore, the heavyweight division is better now than it has ever been. The fighters are much bigger and stronger than they have ever been before. But this board is filled up with people throwing hissy fits because their black americans have been displaced from the heavyweights. Same with their tv announcers, Little Maxie and the rest. Their earlier overhyped black american champs need to have an asterisk put next to their names because eastern european fighters were not able to turn pro in their day. And no, Povetkin is not yet in the same league as Wlad. Nobody is.

Your a complete fucking moron.Muhammad Ali would have beat both those bums in the ring last night at the same time when he was WASHED UP. A prime Ali would have sent both of those bums to the hospital. Povetkin won on default, because Eddie Chambers didnt throw a punch. Boy do you know nothign about what makes boxing a sport to love. Lewis, Holyfield, hell even Tommy fucking Morrison would own that pitiful division. When Gay Eddie Chambers is 5 punches per round away from being the top contender in the heavyweight division you know its full of nothing but bums, The only good fighter in that division is Wlad, the rest are scrubs who wouldnt make journeymen rank 10 years ago.

[ChrisPontius]

So why then retard, are washed up old fighters who couldn't win a title in their primes able to win world titles now? Guys like Briggs who could not win a title at their best, are able to win one now by KO as old, past it fighters...

Guys like Matt Skelton who are 40, have only been boxing for 6 years are able to go 12 rounds winning a few with one of the "world champions" of todays pathetic era.



Foreman and Holmes were also beating 90's contenders when they were in their 40's. Both went the distance with Holyfield in losing a pretty lopsided decision, just like Holyfield went the distance with Ibragimov losing a wide, wide decision.


Fighters like Holyfield who can barely walk and are so shot it is untrue are losing by 5 or 6 rounds in World Title fights to unbeaten prime "champs".:lol:


Holyfield won 1 round, 2 at best. Have you even seen that fight? It was a lopsided loss.


It is the most pathetic era of any division at any period of the sports history and if Wlad quit tommorow a weak chinned, average stamina, cruiserweight like Haye could clean up.

So what's stopping him? The money is there.


I do think the 90's were better, by the way, but i think you're exaggarating a little.

[Antsu]

Chambers could of easily out boxed him...

__________


And pigs could fly...


To tell the truth, I missed most of the fight and tuned in for the last few rounds. You could see that Chambers' corner knew he was losing and kept telling him he needed a KO. He was doing virtually nothing except covering up. He was doing a good job of covering up, though.
Why don’t you shut the hell up about the fight if you didn’t even see it. Povetkin didn’t win this one as easily as looking just the score cards would let you to think. There where many tought almost even rounds, what was scored for Povetkins favor because of his activity. If you like defense and accuracy you could have scored some of those rounds for Chambers too.

[IntentionalButt]

Chambers could of easily out boxed him...

__________


And pigs could fly...


To tell the truth, I missed most of the fight and tuned in for the last few rounds. You could see that Chambers' corner knew he was losing and kept telling him he needed a KO. He was doing virtually nothing except covering up. He was doing a good job of covering up, though.
Dork. :yep

The beginning and the end were like two completely different fights.

That's like saying you saw the last few rounds of Margarito-Clottey and announcing "well, that was a shutout!" :rofl

And you think you have enough of a frame of reference to start a thread about your ill-formed convictions? Then you come out and admit you don't have a leg to stand on? Ha, wave goodbye to any credibility around here.

[Strike]

So why then retard...


_____________________


You need to put a comma between then and retard. I wouldn't normally correct grammar on a boxing forum - participants not being generally noted for their intellectual acuity - but if someone is going to take it upon himself to address me as "retard"...

Don't start with some piss poor grammar crap. I write in cogent sentences, but this is not an academic essay so when writing quickly, I will not check and double check on whether every comma is in place.

The fact is that you are a fucking half wit if you think this is the strongest era ever, it is not even open to debate.

[seldomseenslim]

I was impressed with how Povetkin performed. He does not just throw punches with mindless abandon. There are a great deal of subtleties(sp) occuring with his boxing that many fail too comprehend. This was a good win over a skillfull fighter in Chambers.

The change in power of the heavyweights is refreshing to me and I happen to enjoy the Eastern European fighters. My only real complaint was the quiet, bordering on disinterested German crowd.


I agree with that. the German boxing crowds are a little too polite and refined for for my taste.

As for the cursing and spitting and name-calling keyboard "tough guys" here, you'll have to learn how to impersonate a semi- civilized grown up if you expect me to respond to you. You would not talk to me like that face to face, and I don't respond to that posturing prepubescent bullcrap online.

[IntentionalButt]

I agree with that. the German boxing crowds are a little too polite and refined for for my taste.

As for the cursing and spitting and name-calling keyboard "tough guys" here, you'll have to learn how to impersonate a semi- civilized grown up if you expect me to respond to you. You would not talk to me like that face to face, and I don't respond to that posturing prepubescent bullcrap online.
Yeah, it could be tough guy posturing...or maybe, just maybe - that's how hypocrisy and blatantly misinformed and willfully ignorant rhetoric are addressed in any arena of discussion. :good

You're the one who put your foot in your mouth. Don't be mad at others for then pointing out that your breath stinks.

[G_RapPBF]

I agree with that. the German boxing crowds are a little too polite and refined for for my taste.

As for the cursing and spitting and name-calling keyboard "tough guys" here, you'll have to learn how to impersonate a semi- civilized grown up if you expect me to respond to you. You would not talk to me like that face to face, and I don't respond to that posturing prepubescent bullcrap online.


Lmao I'd call you a moron to your face for even implying that any of these eastern european robotic bums could be in the same ring of any decent American heavyweight over the last 50 years. Then you take it one step further and tried to say that Russian bum last night is a good fighter when the only reason he won because the other guy didnt throw punches. :nut That had to be the first fight I've seen in ages that was won on default because the other guy didnt fight back. Unless you score boxing by someones gloves hitting another guys arms for 12 rounds. Tommy Morrison wins undisputed belt at this crappy era in the heavyweight division, on coke before the fight.

[seldomseenslim]

Originally Posted by Strike
It is the most pathetic era of any division bla bla bla


By parroting the talking heads on their tv sets and repeating it over and over they think it becomes true.


"So what's stopping [them]? The money is there."


Exactly! Talk is cheap.

[seldomseenslim]

Lmao I'd call you a moron to your face...

______

Talk is cheap, especially when hiding behind the safety and anonymity of mommy and daddy's keyboard. Suddenly everybody is John L. Sullivan when they're behind the keyboard.

I have not disrespected anybody here, and I will not accept being disrespected because I don't agree with the politically correct official american Max Kellerman party line.

[seldomseenslim]

Just wondered how do you guys see David Haye vs Povetkin?


David Haye is fighting as a cruiserweight, not a heavyweight.

[Strike]

I agree with that. the German boxing crowds are a little too polite and refined for for my taste.

As for the cursing and spitting and name-calling keyboard "tough guys" here, you'll have to learn how to impersonate a semi- civilized grown up if you expect me to respond to you. You would not talk to me like that face to face, and I don't respond to that posturing prepubescent bullcrap online.

Nobody who knows the first thing about boxing gives a flying fuck whether you respond to them or not because your opinions are so fucking stupid that the only sane course of action is to...

a) Laugh at you

Or

b) Laugh at you

[seldomseenslim]

Nobody who knows the first thing about boxing gives a flying fuck whether you respond to them or not because your opinions are so fucking stupid that the only sane course of action is to...

a) Laugh at you

Or

b) Laugh at you




This is the juvenile garbage you get from these clowns who just chant over and over how bad the heavyweight division is supposed to be today! The real reason they are doing this is all too obvious.

In fact, the heavyweight division is stronger now than it has ever been! It is so strong that it very badly needs to be broken up into some extra divisions - a superheavyweight division at the very least.

[rydersonthestorm]

This is the juvenile garbage you get from these clowns who just chant over and over how bad the heavyweight division is supposed to be today! The real reason they are doing this is all too obvious.

In fact, the heavyweight division is stronger now than it has ever been! It is so strong that it very badly needs to be broken up into some extra divisions - a superheavyweight division at the very least.:nut

[seldomseenslim]

His moving up soon dude after the Enzo fight!!! His already had a fight at heavy KO1!!!


Well, if he does move up, I guess that would mean he's a very incompetant fighter too, since then he'd be part of the heavyweight division that these clowns keep telling us over and over is so horrible.

[G_RapPBF]

In fact, the heavyweight division is stronger now than it has ever been! It is so strong that it very badly needs to be broken up into some extra divisions - a superheavyweight division at the very least.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Stop it dude my sides. You should take this act on tour lmao.

[rydersonthestorm]

Well, if he does move up, I guess that would mean he's a very incompetant fighter too, since then he'd be part of the heavyweight division that these clowns keep telling us over and over is so horrible.
Or perhaps along with wlad he would be one of the more tlented fighters in the heavyweight ranks

[Mindspring]

My thoughts exactly, being bigger and stronger never made a man more talented, if anything it makes you less skilled and clumsy in the ring. Povetkin is an above average Heavyweight at best, the 05-06 version of Brewster would of had a field day with a fighter like him, if Chambers can stun him, a guy like Brewster, Wlad or Peter would knock him out easily.

I was thinking the same thing, more like the '05 Brewster connecting and taking him out. It would've been a rugged fight.
Don't think Peter can take him out.

[Punisher33]

I was thinking the same thing, more like the '05 Brewster connecting and taking him out. It would've been a rugged fight.
Don't think Peter can take him out. I just thought about the styles matchup between the 2, and I strongly believe Brewster has the better chin and power, so if it came down a punch for punch fight 90% of the time Brewster's knocking you down or out. After last nights match, I feel Peter would do the same, to much power and size for a guy like Povetkin to handle IMO, the only good oppenents he has beating are average to below average punchers, guys like Donlad, Bryd, and Chambers, who seemed to stun him a couple times.

[FROST]

a lopsided win?? Have you seen the fight?

I had Povetkin winning too, but it was a close fight...

___________________

117-111 119-109 116-112

Man, you have to watch the fights, looking up the scorecards on boxrec.com isn't enough...

[Strike]

This is the juvenile garbage you get from these clowns who just chant over and over how bad the heavyweight division is supposed to be today! The real reason they are doing this is all too obvious.

In fact, the heavyweight division is stronger now than it has ever been! It is so strong that it very badly needs to be broken up into some extra divisions - a superheavyweight division at the very least.

Of course, because you are a cretin you think I am black and American. Sadly for your pathetic paper thin argument, I am white and European.
I highly rate Wlad in terms of his skill, speed and power and I think Vitali would have been a top contender in any era due to his incredible chin, and good fundamentals.

I rate Calzaghe and Kessler highly, I have no bias in regards to race or nationality, but the fact is that the current heavy crop is utter garbage with Wlad being the exception and possibly Povetkin. I say possibly because I have not seen him properly so cannot judge.

The facts are that old, totally shot, fighters are holding their own or winning titles in this god awful era.
The facts are that novice fighters in terms of experience, but who are 40 years old are world title contenders who can fight a champ and look okay.

The facts are that until Briggs stopped the white wolf, people were raving about this particular European heavy and saying he was the best outside of Wlad. Every time one gets exposed a new hype job steps in. Sadly most of them only have other crap hype jobs to fight so someone has to come out of it looking okay.

Then again you can get fights where two hype jobs show how dire the division is and outside of Wlad that is what will happen everytime two of this current crop of crap (alliteration for you, seeing as you are so big in the use of the English language) meet.

[razor]

BTW, i give Dimitrenko a better shot at beating Klitschko. The only heavy weight who can match him for size AND speed. Plus, he has an equally shaky chin, which should make for a fun fight.

Dimitrenko is a fucking BUM and you know this.

[seldomseenslim]

Of course, because you are a cretin you think I am black...


Now what are you going on about, fool? Where did I ever say you are black?

Big-mouthed little internet punk.

[seldomseenslim]

Man, you have to watch the fights, looking up the scorecards on boxrec.com isn't enough...


I told you, I caught the last three rounds.

[Strike]

Now what are you going on about, fool? Where did I ever say you are black?

Big-mouthed little internet punk.

Well let's see...your entire argument is that anyone who slates the division is "desperate for a black heavyweight champ" you have repeated it again on another thread. You repeatedly mention black, American fighters and imply that anyone who sees this pile of steaming excrement of a divison for what it is, must be hating because there are no black American champs.

You are clearly a white, European guy who has major issues about race or at the very least is ludicrously biased and no doubt of Eastern European heritage. So you project your own subjective mindset upon others and try to kid yourself that the likes of Valuev and Chagaev are better than Ali, Frazier, Tyson, Lewis, Marciano, Louis and Holmes etc.

As I said you are a farce.

[Strike]

I told you, I caught the last three rounds.

Well that settles it then, you must be right. How much of the boxing game have you caught pre 2006? Perhaps if you had seen the last 30 or 40 years on tape rather than say the last 3 rounds of the most recent sham of a fight, you wouldn't keep spewing up your verbal faeces across the boards.

[IntentionalButt]

Yeah, it could be tough guy posturing...or maybe, just maybe - that's how hypocrisy and blatantly misinformed and willfully ignorant rhetoric are addressed in any arena of discussion. :good

You're the one who put your foot in your mouth. Don't be mad at others for then pointing out that your breath stinks.

:deal

[Sardu]

I think the threadstarter makes some valid points. The problem is when the argument is based on jingoism or ethnic pride the debate ceases to be based on logic and conflagrates into a shitstorm. There were two excellent heavyweights back in the early 1970's - namely Vitshotsky from the soviet union and Stevenson from cuba who were no doubt great fighters. Vitshotsky was an absolute animal who cut easily so he was held out of the 1972 olympic games. But he beat all the best american amateurs of that era as well as kayoing the great cuban Stevenson a couple of times. Both would have no doubt found success in the pros if they had been llowed to fight professionally. I am sure there were countless other potential stars that never got the chance to go pro. The american media is biased towards american athletes and that goes for boxing too which is a global sport. It is true that if Wlad was an american he would be lauded as the best fighter on the planet. He is the best fighter on the planet because he can beat any man in the world right now in a boxing match. Lennox Lewis also never got his props from the american sportswriters. It is a shame. I know what I am watching anyway and don't need the Kellermans, Merchants, Lampleys, etc. to tell me Klitschko is great. All you have to do is watch him in action.

[boxingcar]

It is the most pathetic era of any division at any period of the sports history and if Wlad quit tommorow a weak chinned, average stamina, cruiserweight like Haye could clean up.

That's more like wishful thinking on your part. He wouldn't.

[seldomseenslim]

I think the threadstarter makes some valid points. The problem is when the argument is based on jingoism or ethnic pride the debate ceases to be based on logic and conflagrates into a shitstorm. There were two excellent heavyweights back in the early 1970's - namely Vitshotsky from the soviet union and Stevenson from cuba who were no doubt great fighters. Vitshotsky was an absolute animal who cut easily so he was held out of the 1972 olympic games. But he beat all the best american amateurs of that era as well as kayoing the great cuban Stevenson a couple of times. Both would have no doubt found success in the pros if they had been llowed to fight professionally. I am sure there were countless other potential stars that never got the chance to go pro. The american media is biased towards american athletes and that goes for boxing too which is a global sport. It is true that if Wlad was an american he would be lauded as the best fighter on the planet. He is the best fighter on the planet because he can beat any man in the world right now in a boxing match. Lennox Lewis also never got his props from the american sportswriters. It is a shame. I know what I am watching anyway and don't need the Kellermans, Merchants, Lampleys, etc. to tell me Klitschko is great. All you have to do is watch him in action.



No fighters from eastern Europe or Cuba were allowed to turn pro back then - up until when, the 1990's? That's still the case in Cuba. I would think that post-Castro Cuba would change that policy since their top athletes keep defecting, lured by the Yankee dollar. China and other Asian countries, too, I guess, tho boxing isn't a popular sport in those places, I think.

Anyway, it is so obvious where the carefully controlled American media is coming from on this issue too, and these nitwits on the boxing forums keep parroting them, posting and re-posting threads about how bad the heavyweight division is supposed to be now, whereas in fact it is strionger now then it has ever been before, now that "world champion" is actually taking on an authentic meaning.

[seldomseenslim]

if Wlad quit tommorow a weak chinned, average stamina, cruiserweight like Haye could clean up...

________________


Haye must be their latest in a long line of Great Black Hopes - or Great Black Dopes, as they used to call the White heavyweight contenders.

[seldomseenslim]

I was impressed with how Povetkin performed. He does not just throw punches with mindless abandon. There are a great deal of subtleties(sp) occuring with his boxing that many fail too comprehend. This was a good win over a skillfull fighter in Chambers.

The change in power of the heavyweights is refreshing to me and I happen to enjoy the Eastern European fighters. My only real complaint was the quiet, bordering on disinterested German crowd.


He wasn't at his best either. He was recovering from the flu. You can see him at his best on some of the Youtube clips.

[seldomseenslim]

First of all, you and your friends are the ones trying to come up with excuses, excuses for why black americans have been deposed from the heavyweight division - and, again, the heavyweight division is only the "laughing stock" of you and your friends and the talking heads on the US media, not the rest of the world!

10 or 15 years ago eastern europeans had not yet established themselves in the pros.

Exhibit A and Exhibit B:

It is almost universally accepted that both Doug Jones and Jimmy Young beat Muhammed Ali fair and square but were then robbed by the judges. I submit that Chambers is much better and bigger and stronger than either Jones or Young. Henry Cooper also beat Ali in the first fight, but due to Dundee's cheating, Ali got an extended rest period between rounds. The record books need to be corrected, and Cooper declared the winner. Cooper only weighed 185, Douglas 188. Chambers weighed 220.


A good big man will beat a good small man. If you don't think so, do away with the weight divisions entirely. Liston, Frazier, etc. would look tiny in the ring with today's 250 pound heavyweights. The bigger they are, the harder they hit.

[kirk]

If they're saying Povetkin, at 227, is "undersized" for a heavy now, where does that leave men who weigh 200-210? Boxing badly needs at the very least one additional heavy weight classification. horrible.. horrible idea... the LAST thing boxing needs is another division with another belt with another champion... thats one of boxing MAIN probles AS IS..

guys 200-210 eather need to drop to cruiser, or excell at their advantages, which would probably be workrate and stamina...

[T.S.]

Sasha Povetkin, in only his 15th pro fight, just got through soundly thrashing a fighter who was 30 and 0 in a lopsided win, a fighter who specializes in making other fighters look bad, and this silly board is filled up with haters! Furthermore, the heavyweight division is better now than it has ever been. The fighters are much bigger and stronger than they have ever been before. But this board is filled up with people throwing hissy fits because their black americans have been displaced from the heavyweights. Same with their tv announcers, Little Maxie and the rest. Their earlier overhyped black american champs need to have an asterisk put next to their names because eastern european fighters were not able to turn pro in their day. And no, Povetkin is not yet in the same league as Wlad. Nobody is.

Good post says it like it is fck the political correctness.
There's a lot of "Soviet Envy" here on ESB.

I admit the HW division is trash...in America that is. Here's my top ten of the next "Great American Hope" of any color...

1. Evander Holyfield (86 years old, had head used as speed bag by Ibragimov but I have nothing but admiration for him. At his age still willing to go at it has the knowledge but body is slowing down. He's still America's best HW)

2. Shannon Briggs (another victim of Ibragimov stood there like sand bag gasping for air. This is our second best chance at HW Champ :patsch )

3. John Ruiz (Please...Realized or Realised or Realiced he's out of his league after getting schooled by Chagaev)

4. Tony Thompson (Except he gets decapitated by "Wlad the impaler" in three rnds or less)

5. Hasim Rahman (Just don't buy tickets in the front row! :nono )

6. Chris Byrd ( Battered bloody by Wlad the Impaler or as the Brits might say Bloody Battered. Better have Daddy ready to throw in the towel just in case)

7. Eddie Chambers (After done pissing blood he should go down to cruiserweight IMO)

8. Calvin Brock (Dropped like a rock by Wlad the Impaler. Bank account seems over-drawn)

9. George Foreman ( I might reconsider and rank him #2 :good )

10. Tye Fields (Does OK against that guy name TBA don't know how he do against someone with a name tho)

But wait! Don King did say Ray Austin would reign Hell on Klitschko maybe he should get a rematch? :thumbsup

The HW division is alive and well...in Russia! Problem is we need one Champion not four and it looks like it's going in that direction.
Wlad over Chagaev within' two years
We shall see
To be continued...

[seldomseenslim]

horrible.. horrible idea... the LAST thing boxing needs is another division with another belt with another champion... thats one of boxing MAIN probles AS IS..

guys 200-210 eather need to drop to cruiser, or excell at their advantages, which would probably be workrate and stamina...


No, I completely disagree. There are way too many light weight classifications, some seperated by an absurd 2 or 3 pounds, but there is actually no place in pro boxing today for a man who naturally weighs say 205. If he wants to compete he has to step into the ring with guys who outweigh him by 40, 50 pounds, or in the extreme case of Valuev, by over 100 pounds. That's some handicap! Otherwise, like you, they'll say, hey, just lose weight.

I'd like to see a more rational weight classification system, with systematic increments of 10% or some other percentage. If it was 10%, then you'd have a 150 lb. weight class, then 165, then 182, then 200, 220, 242, etc.

[seldomseenslim]

T. Stout

:good


I still think that Mike Mollo has a lot of promise as the best American(born) heavy. I hope that he is OK, BTW. I haven't heard any news on him since the bad news that he had been hospitalized with a concussion following the Golota fight, and the subsequent report from his manager that he will be OK. Joe Mesi was definitely the best before, if he can come back. I haven't heard news on him lately either.

[seldomseenslim]

T.S. -

Good list! Tye Fields vs. TBA's. Too true. He's made a whole career out of fighting them! I don't know what the story is there.

[kirk]

No, I completely disagree. There are way too many light weight classifications, some seperated by an absurd 2 or 3 pounds, but there is actually no place in pro boxing today for a man who naturally weighs say 205. If he wants to compete he has to step into the ring with guys who outweigh him by 40, 50 pounds, or in the extreme case of Valuev, by over 100 pounds. That's some handicap! Otherwise, like you, they'll say, hey, just lose weight.

I'd like to see a more rational weight classification system, with systematic increments of 10% or some other percentage. If it was 10%, then you'd have a 150 lb. weight class, then 165, then 182, then 200, 220, 242, etc.

im sorry man but not only do i think your totally wrong seldomseenslim, i think your idea hurts boxing very badly, and it a bit asburd...

the heavyweight division is iconic in sports... to carve it up for the need of smaller heavyweights to me is just WRONG... jesuz.. im not quite sure you realise the consequences (sorry if it is spelled wrong) of those actions would be..

200 - 4 champion mess
220 -4 more champions
242 - 4 more champions
and so on and so forth...

horrible, horrible idea...

dude, the problem with todays boxing is too many champions, and too many weight classes, and thats one of the PLUSES that heavyweights have going for them.... also add to that that any man over 200lbs, from 200-250lbs... is fighting for the iconic, heavyweight champion of the world title...

if someone weighs NATURALLY 205.... then they could drop 15lbs to cruiser... im sorry man but you have to accept that not EVERYONE is going to fair well in boxing... and if you are an undersized heavyweight, like i said, you will have to excell at your advantages... or drop weight. its that simple.

and please.... anyone who weighs in at 205 as a heavyweight can and would drop to cruiser...

James Toney, a former MIDDLEWEIGHT fought holyfield IN SHAPE and weighed around 215lbs...

Roy jones jr... another former middleweight, fought and beat ruiz at 190 something pounds...

chris byrd fought and was champion fighting at around 210lbs...

all these guys could have dropped to cruiser... yet these guys wanted to fight for that iconic title, for that iconic recognition... to go down in history... not only does your idea hurt boxing, it keeps these guys from fighting for the same title that ali had, that foreman had, that tyson had, that lewis had... come on.

The heavyweight division is fine the way it is... they are HEAVYWEIGHTS... its iconic to our sport and the world... splitting it up is a horrible idea, to bend over backwards for fighters who dont have the size and skill to compete... because as toney, byrd, and jones have shown... small men have their advantages and if they have the skills they will do their damage....

thats the magic of the heavyweight division, diversity.

[T.S.]

T. Stout

:good


I still think that Mike Mollo has a lot of promise as the best American(born) heavy. I hope that he is OK, BTW. I haven't heard any news on him since the bad news that he had been hospitalized with a concussion following the Golota fight, and the subsequent report from his manager that he will be OK. Joe Mesi was definitely the best before, if he can come back. I haven't heard news on him lately either.


I liked Mesi until Jirov bashed his brains in (Rabbit punches or not) but to continue boxing after damage to the brain would be insane. I know he's got the guts to continue and can always pay off a doctor to give him clearance but I'd hate to see him get hit again. His story is rather tragic "waste" of talent.

Same with Lamon Brewster. I don't want to see this guy go blind after getting mauled twice in a row.

Best chance of a non "Soviet" Champ right now is Sam Peter who I like a lot and expect him to beat aging rusty Maskaev but that's what everyone said during Rahman rematch and look what happened there!
Maskaev is always underestimated :huh
Maybe Maskaev still has something left we'll see :good

[sthomas]

Sasha Povetkin, in only his 15th pro fight, just got through soundly thrashing a fighter who was 30 and 0 in a lopsided win, a fighter who specializes in making other fighters look bad, and this silly board is filled up with haters! Furthermore, the heavyweight division is better now than it has ever been. The fighters are much bigger and stronger than they have ever been before. But this board is filled up with people throwing hissy fits because their black americans have been displaced from the heavyweights. Same with their tv announcers, Little Maxie and the rest. Their earlier overhyped black american champs need to have an asterisk put next to their names because eastern european fighters were not able to turn pro in their day. And no, Povetkin is not yet in the same league as Wlad. Nobody is.

Don't taint Povetkin's victory with this racial crap. I'm a white American guy and I think the current heavyweights are way better than critics give them credit for. But that's the only common ground that you and I share. I don't care where a fighter comes from or what they look like. I just want good fighters. Overhyped black American champs? Get serious. Ali, Holmes, young Tyson, Marciano, Louis, Dempsey, Tunny, J. Johnson. These guys were not overhyped.

[sthomas]

A good big man will beat a good small man. If you don't think so, do away with the weight divisions entirely. Liston, Frazier, etc. would look tiny in the ring with today's 250 pound heavyweights. The bigger they are, the harder they hit.

Not true. Tyson is a good example. Valuev is another good example. Joe Choynski is the best example, 165-175 lbs. 4 champs: J.Johnson, Corbett, Sullivan, and Jefferies all said noone ever hit them harder than Joe.

[sthomas]

I like Wlad, but he's been KO'd by 2 AMERICANS. Must be overrated.

[seldomseenslim]

Kirk - I agree that there are too many so-called champs and weight divisions, but the excess weight divisions are all in the lighter classes. Heavyweights, for whatever reason - improved diet and training, steroids - are MUCH bigger and stronger now than they used to be. Heavyweight champs used to often be ~ 185 pounds. The Olympics and amateurs now have a super-heavyweight class, and I say the pros need to AT LEAST that. It is not fair to tell somebody whose natural weight may be in the low 200's to "lose weight." Why not tell the lighter guys to lose their TWO OR THREE pounds? they were even calling Povetkin - at 227 - a "small heavyweight"! getting the Cruiserweight division from them was like pulling teeth - and if not for that, a guy who weighs 175 would still be in the heavyweight division!

[seldomseenslim]

I liked Mesi until Jirov bashed his brains in (Rabbit punches or not) but to continue boxing after damage to the brain would be insane. I know he's got the guts to continue and can always pay off a doctor to give him clearance but I'd hate to see him get hit again. His story is rather tragic "waste" of talent.

Same with Lamon Brewster. I don't want to see this guy go blind after getting mauled twice in a row.

Best chance of a non "Soviet" Champ right now is Sam Peter who I like a lot and expect him to beat aging rusty Maskaev but that's what everyone said during Rahman rematch and look what happened there!
Maskaev is always underestimated :huh
Maybe Maskaev still has something left we'll see :good


And Corrie Sanders fights later this week - for the South African championship.

[kirk]

i just dont see the substance of your argument, we will have to agree to disagree ;) i for one am glad they are not doing this, and never will hopefully

[seldomseenslim]

i just dont see the substance of your argument, we will have to agree to disagree ;) i for one am glad they are not doing this, and never will hopefully


Well, the next time you are standing next to some guy who is a head taller than you and outweighs you by 50 or 100 pounds, think about how it would feel to step into the ring with him.

[kirk]

Well, the next time you are standing next to some guy who is a head taller than you and outweighs you by 50 or 100 pounds, think about how it would feel to step into the ring with him.
lol.. the fact of the matter is that if your THAT undersized... then its not ment for you... PERIOD.

dude, chagaeve beat valuev, ruiz almost beat valuev... byrd beat vitali, byrd beat mccline, brock beat mccline... guinn beat doki, guinn beat grant

i could go on and on and on and on and on on small guys beating the bigger men with their abilities and spirit...

its the HEAVYWEIGHT division... if your good enough, you will compete with the other heavyweights... if you cant, then drop down (which again, is not as hard as your making it seem for a heavyweight) or just deal with it...

im sorry, im not going to feel sorry for 205lb fighters to the point of making a whole new division for them... lol.. that is ABSURD. drop to cruiser... or man up and fight.

its been done throughout history, and will continue to do so...

[RUSKULL]

So why then retard, are washed up old fighters who couldn't win a title in their primes able to win world titles now? Guys like Briggs who could not win a title at their best, are able to win one now by KO as old, past it fighters...

Guys like Matt Skelton who are 40, have only been boxing for 6 years are able to go 12 rounds winning a few with one of the "world champions" of todays pathetic era.

Fighters like Holyfield who can barely walk and are so shot it is untrue are losing by 5 or 6 rounds in World Title fights to unbeaten prime "champs".:lol:

It is the most pathetic era of any division at any period of the sports history and if Wlad quit tommorow a weak chinned, average stamina, cruiserweight like Haye could clean up.

That's only partially true.

Briggs gave Lewis all he could handle in the first couple of rounds.

Lewis is a top 10 ATG Heavy.

Shannon's power is huge & he has a chance to KO just about anybody for that reason alone. Power is also one of the last traits to go when a fighter ages so don't give me that "old" BS either.

Truth is Liakhovich was beating Briggs in a shitty fight before he got stupid & got KO'd in the final seconds of the final round.

[RUSKULL]

I dont understand how you can accuse me of making excuses when just in this post you stated 10 or 15 years ago eastern Euros had not yet established themselves, that sounds like a big excuse to me, maybe it was because the Americans were so talented they couldnt compete with them at the top level.

As far as Ali is concerned, in his younger days he was so talented you coudnt keep your eyes of him, which is a far cry from todays talent limmited Heavyweights.

Ali was extremely talented & gifted but let's not make like he was always exciting to watch, okay? He was a fairly dirty fighter also with A LOT of holding, holding & hitting, etc. I recall many of his fights where he didn't do shit but cover up for the first few rounds.

[RUSKULL]

Foreman and Holmes were also beating 90's contenders when they were in their 40's. Both went the distance with Holyfield in losing a pretty lopsided decision, just like Holyfield went the distance with Ibragimov losing a wide, wide decision.



Holyfield won 1 round, 2 at best. Have you even seen that fight? It was a lopsided loss.



So what's stopping him? The money is there.


I do think the 90's were better, by the way, but i think you're exaggarating a little.

Well done Chris. I didn't see your post or you would've saved me a bit of typing. :yep Like I said, he's only partially correct.

So far the 90's were better but we have 2 years left to see what the 2000's have in store.

[RUSKULL]

Lmao I'd call you a moron to your face for even implying that any of these eastern european robotic bums could be in the same ring of any decent American heavyweight over the last 50 years. Then you take it one step further and tried to say that Russian bum last night is a good fighter when the only reason he won because the other guy didnt throw punches. :nut That had to be the first fight I've seen in ages that was won on default because the other guy didnt fight back. Unless you score boxing by someones gloves hitting another guys arms for 12 rounds. Tommy Morrison wins undisputed belt at this crappy era in the heavyweight division, on coke before the fight.

Quite honestly that's dumber than anything Slim has written IMO.

Wlad would kill Morrison as would Briggs, Chagaev or Ibragimov, and Maskaev & Peter are 50/50 fights at best for Tommy. I was a fan of Tommey too but let's keep it realistic.

[RUSKULL]

Just wondered how do you guys see David Haye vs Povetkin?

Edge to David Haye based on power & early aggression, and I hate Haye too.

However Povetkin's chances go up sharply the longer the fight goes since Povetkin has shown awesome stamina & Haye's stamina & chin are shit.

[curmudgeon]

if Chambers can stun him, a guy like Brewster, Wlad or Peter would knock him out easily.

Brester and Peter will just stay there with a puzzled look blocking combo after combo with their heads. They do not have even close enough speed needed to score, and an occasional haymaker would not cut it.

Only Wlad is fast and strong enough to knock AP out.

[seldomseenslim]

"
Originally Posted by seldomseenslim
Well, the next time you are standing next to some guy who is a head taller than you and outweighs you by 50 or 100 pounds, think about how it would feel to step into the ring with him.
"

[quote=kirk]lol.. the fact of the matter is that if your THAT undersized... then its not ment for you... PERIOD.


No, that's just the way it is for a man who is 6' tall, 200 lbs. standing next to a man who is 6'6, 250 lbs!


dude, chagaeve beat valuev, ruiz almost beat valuev... byrd beat vitali, byrd beat mccline, brock beat mccline... guinn beat doki, guinn beat grant


Well, Byrd only beat Vitali because Vitali sustaned an injury and couldn't continue. He had been far ahead on all the scorecards up to then. But of course there will always be exceptions to the rule. The exceptions only serve to prove the rule - and the rule is you generally don't want to engage in fisticuffs with a man who is much bigger than you are! The little fellers don't have to do that!



i could go on and on and on and on and on on small guys beating the bigger men with their abilities and spirit...

its the HEAVYWEIGHT division... if your good enough, you will compete with the other heavyweights... if you cant, then drop down (which again, is not as hard as your making it seem for a heavyweight) or just deal with it...

im sorry, im not going to feel sorry for 205lb fighters to the point of making a whole new division for them... lol.. that is ABSURD. drop to cruiser... or man up and fight.

its been done throughout history, and will continue to do so...]

As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get them to finally introduce a cruiserweight division, otherwise 176 pounders would still be expected to compete with Wlad, Valuev et al.

I say get rid of all those dumb assed "junior" and "super" and whatever they are light weight divisions and introduce some extra heavyweight divisions, at the very minimum a super-heavyweight div.