Do you think there should be two HW divisions?

[klion22]

I think in today's boxing, the disparity in size between one HW and another is so huge. It wasn't as drastic as the past.

Do you think there should be two HW divisions? Maybe from 200-220 and another for 221+ or 220-215 and 215+? You can call one "Heavyweight Division" and the other one " Super Heavyweight Division".

[BoxingGuru]

Jesus no. There are already TOO MANY divisions in this sport.

[RonnieHornschuh]

no, because a skilled 220 pounder easily can take out some lazy, fat 270s guy. having 330 pounds isn't necessarily a bonus - take valuev for example.

[kirk]

i was in an argument over this in another thread... no its the dumbest idea in boxing today imo.

[slo100]

I think it's fine how it is, as mentioned previously; too many divisions. Besides when you get to a certain weight/size punching power seems to plateau, 30 lbs difference in a heavyweight doesn't necessarily equate to a massive disparity, where as in the lighter weights you may see a significant difference between 7 lbs or so.

[McGrain]

Chagaev is better than Valuev.

[BewareofDawg]

225-James Toney s/b Heavyweight
200-225 s/b Light Heavyweight
180-200 s/b Cruiserweight
168-180 s/b Light Cruiserweight

[Thread Stealer]

no, i like it like it is now.

[TFFP]

What would be the point?

It's already been shown being big doesn't do shit if you aren't good. It will just dilute the quality of the divisions even further

[Thread Stealer]

Chris Byrd was only 210 when he beat 244 lb. Vitali Klitschko. He also drew with 237 lb. Andrew Golota and defeated 270 lb. Jameel McCline.

245 lb Wlad lost to 2 guys in the mid 220s, and 240 lb. Lennox fought very close with a 217 lb. Holyfield in the rematch.

Size helps, but it isn't everything.

A 20 lb. difference in the HWs is not like Kelly Pavlik vs. Ricky Hatton.

[BewareofDawg]

A 20 lb. difference in the HWs is not like Kelly Pavlik vs. Ricky Hatton.
Wlad having a 20lb advantage is like Pavlik fighting a Welterweight.

[albeziel]

NO, that's the beauty of the sport agility vs strenght

[booradley]

The Cruiser division was put in place do to the size difference between lhw and hw. I doubt if a super heavy division would do anything positive for boxing.

[Marnoff]

Definitely not.

[BewareofDawg]

NO, that's the beauty of the sport agility vs strenght
So they should have 3 divisions then.
Small < 160lbs
Med 161lbs - 190lbs
Large > 191lbs


Pac would have to compete with Pavlik, Taylor, Wright etc etc There would be no MAB or EM....they would have never been champs.

Don't you see. The way boxing works today is one loss can set you back years and pretty much drop you. Fans claim exposure if a fighter has a bad night, let alone gets knocked out. Now you can be the most gifted fighter on the planet, but it's gonna be damn hard to display it if you are naturally 210lbs and have to face a 6'7" 245lb Wlad :deal Another division would even it out, and is long over-due.

[Thread Stealer]

Wlad having a 20lb advantage is like Pavlik fighting a Welterweight.

Wlad has lost to guys with almost a 20 lb weight disdvantage.

I really do not see Pavlik losing to a WW.

[BewareofDawg]

Wlad has lost to guys with almost a 20 lb weight disdvantage.

I really do not see Pavlik losing to a WW.
So fucking what? its the body weight percent thats the issue cocknocker! Jesus Christ your a fucking idiot :rofl

[BewareofDawg]

Thats my point anyway. a 225lb guy trying to win a title from Wlad is like having a 147lb guy having to win a title from Pavlik. It's not fair or balanced to the big guys.

[Mendoza]

I think in today's boxing, the disparity in size between one HW and another is so huge. It wasn't as drastic as the past.

Do you think there should be two HW divisions? Maybe from 200-220 and another for 221+ or 220-215 and 215+? You can call one "Heavyweight Division" and the other one " Super Heavyweight Division".

NO, NO, and NO! There isn't enough talent to create a 215 and under divsion. We don't need 4 more heavyweigh champions.

If your walk around weight is 210, you can still make the crusier weight cut at 200, then re-hydrate.

[klion22]

NO, NO, and NO! There isn't enough talent to create a 215 and under divsion. We don't need 4 more heavyweigh champions.

If your walk around weight is 210, you can still make the crusier weight cut at 200, then re-hydrate.

I think the best argument one can make is that there simply isn't enough talent. But i still believe that when you put a SKILLED 215 lb guy up against a SKILLED 245 lb guy, the 245 lb guy has a huge advantage. Again, i'm not comparing a great 215 lb guy against some fat 245 lb. I'm talking about guys with talent. That's why i brought up the idea.

[kirk]

I think the best argument one can make is that there simply isn't enough talent. But i still believe that when you put a SKILLED 215 lb guy up against a SKILLED 245 lb guy, the 245 lb guy has a huge advantage. Again, i'm not comparing a great 215 lb guy against some fat 245 lb. I'm talking about guys with talent. That's why i brought up the idea.

but that smaller guy is GOING to have physical advantages BASED off of his size... wether it being able to get inside and do better work, or better stamina, better workrate...


Beware... i love ya man but i gotta disagree here strongly...

also, not only are you hurting boxing imo, your taking the privilidge away from future holyfields (just because todays small heavyweights arent that doesnt mean one wont pop up) and taking their right away for fighting for that iconic title.. the one rocky held, the one ali held, the one foreman held, the one lewis held,

its iconic, and its a privilidge.... splintering it up because 215lb guys are at a disadvantage to me just is wrong...

thats the heavyweight division... diversity of big men, and where it all comes together, using differant skills and advantages to their best ability.

[BewareofDawg]

That's just poor reasoning. A certain weight ratio (e.g. 9:10) does not lead to the same disparity in ability to win a fight at different weights; this is why the intervals between weight classes increase disproportionately as weight increases (e.g. Bantamweight = 3lb interval, cruiserweight = 25lb interval, but cruiserweights are not 8 times heavier than bantamweights).

Also, a lot of really heavy fighters are overweight, so are not necessarily better than they would be if they weighed closer to 200 pounds.
Poor reasoning huh? :huh :patsch :twisted:

20lbs difference ----- divided by Wlads weight of 245lbs ==== 8.16%
13lbs difference ----- divided by Kellys weight of 160lbs ==== 8.13%

In this case Wlad is not overweight and is very skilled. So a 225lb skilled, in shape guy going up against a 245lb skilled, in shape guy.......is like Kermit Cintron having to fight Kelly Pavlik. Still think it's poor reasoning Socrates? :think

[PH|LLA]

no, because a skilled 220 pounder easily can take out some lazy, fat 270s guy. having 330 pounds isn't necessarily a bonus - take valuev for example.
Valuev is a great example of someone with zero skills and speed getting by solely on his size.

the guy weighs in at like 320 lbs.

but they can't make a division for guys like him cause he is the only one

[BewareofDawg]

but that smaller guy is GOING to have physical advantages BASED off of his size... wether it being able to get inside and do better work, or better stamina, better workrate...


Beware... i love ya man but i gotta disagree here strongly...

also, not only are you hurting boxing imo, your taking the privilidge away from future holyfields (just because todays small heavyweights arent that doesnt mean one wont pop up) and taking their right away for fighting for that iconic title.. the one rocky held, the one ali held, the one foreman held, the one lewis held,

its iconic, and its a privilidge.... splintering it up because 215lb guys are at a disadvantage to me just is wrong...

thats the heavyweight division... diversity of big men, and where it all comes together, using differant skills and advantages to their best ability.
I feel you. That is the downside to what I'm saying and probably a stronger argument then the one I have. But the problem still remains that some heavyweights have to overcome a 40lb disparity agaisnt a quick, skilled and agile Wlad in order to search for greatness....when in some eras the only guys over 230lbs could barely walk and chew gum at the same time. The best guys Joe Louis had to beat were 200lbs and under, same with Marciano. This I might be killed for, but I'm gonna say it anyway. If Frazier came along in this era and had to face one of the Klits, he might........ah fuck never mind, I don't feel like getting raped right now :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[liljuve13]

All the Present Heavyweights Suck ass , :ban1

[Thread Stealer]

So fucking what? its the body weight percent thats the issue cocknocker! Jesus Christ your a fucking idiot :rofl

Thats my point anyway. a 225lb guy trying to win a title from Wlad is like having a 147lb guy having to win a title from Pavlik. It's not fair or balanced to the big guys.

No it's not. the difference among heavyweights is not greater than that among smaller fighters.

A 225 lb. guy has beaten Wladimir in the past. Brewster was a tad over 225 in the first fight.

Chagaev weighs 228 and a match between him and Wlad is the best fight in the division.

Pavlik versus a welterweight would be a disgrace, unlike Wlad-Chagaev, which is fine.

Wlad has skills, the size is a bonus for him.

[El Presidente]

Wlad having a 20lb advantage is like Pavlik fighting a Welterweight.still you dont get the point huh

[Shaolin Box]

I think in today's boxing, the disparity in size between one HW and another is so huge. It wasn't as drastic as the past.

Do you think there should be two HW divisions? Maybe from 200-220 and another for 221+ or 220-215 and 215+? You can call one "Heavyweight Division" and the other one " Super Heavyweight Division".

No but i think some of these fat fucks should loose some weight for the love of god

[BewareofDawg]

still you dont get the point huh
What point?

How is a 225lb heavyweight (say Brewster) fighting a 245lb Wlad different from Margarito fighting Pavlik?

Honest question though. I don't see what point I'm missing. What that a 225lb guy can hit hard enough to KO a big Heavyweight and a 147lb just can't? If thats the point, then yeah I see it :good If there is something else, educate me :deal

[MacManJr.]

Who cares about heavyweights anyway? Lennox retired a long time ago.

[Asterion]

No, there should not be two heavyweight divisions.

If they create a Super Heavyweight division, however, it should start from 250 pounds.

[BewareofDawg]

You missed the point...the 8% is significant at the lower weight classes, because it equates to a big power and strength difference. The 8%, for biological reasons, does not equate to much difference at all at over 200 pounds.

The bantamweight interval is 3lb in size, which is 2.5% of the weight of a bantamweight fighter. The cruiserweight interval is 25lb in size, which is 12.5% the weight of a cruiserweight fighter. This ratio at middleweight is 3.75%.

The ratio of interval width to weight increases in this way as one goes up the divisions because weight differences (not only fixed but also by ratio) are becoming less significant! By the time we reach heavyweight, there is no need for an upper limit to the division, because the natural limit of about 25 stone is low enough.
Ok. 10% of Wlads body is more mass then 10% of Pacs. I got ya. :good I still disagree with everyone on this thread and hope you all go to hell, but I understand what your saying :yep

[dan-b]

All it would do is further dilute an already sparse division & further dilute boxing overall. Both divisions would lack integrity & what little glamour that is left in our supposed banner division would be lost.

[randeris]

Sure, size matters. But then Welterweight should also be divided in two because Paul Williams fights there?. Joe Dempsey fought at or around 190 lbs most of his career. Rocky Marciano fought at or around 185-190. With the all ready small talent, what would dividing it in two not do? All would be lost if there was a 'super heavyweight division', the main tradition of the sport is heavyweight. Why wreck that by creating super heavyweights?

[BewareofDawg]

Sure, size matters. But then Welterweight should also be divided in two because Paul Williams fights there?. Joe Dempsey fought at or around 190 lbs most of his career. Rocky Marciano fought at or around 185-190. With the all ready small talent, what would dividing it in two not do? All would be lost if there was a 'super heavyweight division', the main tradition of the sport is heavyweight. Why wreck that by creating super heavyweights?
First of all if Marciano was around in the 90s or even today he wouldn't be Heavyweight Champ, maybe a titlist, definitely not undefeated. Most likely he'd be the greatest cruiserweight ever, but he would've had to beat Holyfield at Cruiser....which would be tough.

[LiamE]

The answer would be yes if cruiserweight didnt exist. Guys over 175 used to be H/W.... then it was 190, now its 200. Some BIG guys can get down to 200 - Just look at Haye.

I'd take a prime 5'11" 210lb Tyson to take out a 6'7" 245lb Wlad or 7' 330lb Vlauev any day of the week and twice on sunday.

[2ironmt]

no, because a skilled 220 pounder easily can take out some lazy, fat 270s guy. having 330 pounds isn't necessarily a bonus - take valuev for example. yeah but guys like wlad whom are actually athletic and huge have a clear advantage over natural 215lbers. obviously there's only a handful of 6'4 plus athletes in the division, so there may be not be a dire need right now. IMO the cruiser division should be somehow up to 215or 220 but the other divisions would have to be adjusted which is fine b/c imo there doesn't need to be a division every 6 lbs or so.

[rooq]

not two hw divisions.

but we all have to take into account that the range of size in pro boxing has increased over the last decade or two. while the sport has become more popular in asia to increase the need for lighter weight divisions, heavyweights are also getting bigger and bigger.

i personally don't think there are too many weight divisions, but "heavyweight" should always be the highest weight division as it still captures the imagination of the casual fan and being the hw champ is still considered the ultimate position in boxing

my solution would be to swicth the cruiserweight limit back to 190, and introduce a 215lb super-cruiserweight division for guys like david haye, eddie chambers etc

[DamonD]

No.
Let's look at some recent superheavyweights.

The two guys to beat Lewis were 6'2 (231lbs) and 6'2 (238 )...both shorter and lighter.

The two guys to beat Vitali were 6' (210) and 6'5 (256)...both shorter, Byrd was lighter (and Lewis was overweight).

The three guys to beat Wladimir were 6'3 (249), 6'4 (225) and 6'2 (226)...all three shorter, Sanders and Brewster lighter (and Puritty just tubby).

The guy to beat Riddick Bowe was 6'2 (217)...if you'd like to include the Golota blugeonings, he was 6'4 (243 & 239). Both shorter, both lighter except Golota-Bowe II by four pounds.

Michael Grant's three victorious opponents were 6'5 (247), 6'6 (260) and 6'3 (218 )...all three shorter, only McCline heavier by just by six pounds.

The guy that beat Nikolay Valuev is 6'1 (228 )...vastly shorter and lighter.


Bottom line is, despite the hang-wringing that has often occured over the decades about these big nasty superheavies coming along and picking on the 'little guys', the right person doing the right thing at the right time can make them lose same as anyone else.

The superheavies have their own set of problems due to their size, often relating to coordination and stamina issues. It's not like they're necessary everything a 'normal' heavyweight is but better.

[KobeIsGod]

diluting the talent pool even more by creating add'l weight divisions is a terrible idea. they should if anything eliminate divisions to make them more competitve. look at football and baseball. Expansion doesn't create parity, rather mediocrity.

i'd rather see them merge the cruiserweight and hw divisions. many claim the hws suck, so the cruisers should have no problems competing with them since they are far more skilled despite the size differences. So if Dempsey can beat Willard why not Mormeck against Wlad since we all know Wlad is a slow, plodding, heartless and chinless joke :yep

[2ironmt]

No.
Let's look at some recent superheavyweights.

The two guys to beat Lewis were 6'2 (231lbs) and 6'2 (238 )...both shorter and lighter.

The two guys to beat Vitali were 6' (210) and 6'5 (256)...both shorter, Byrd was lighter (and Lewis was overweight).

The three guys to beat Wladimir were 6'3 (249), 6'4 (225) and 6'2 (226)...all three shorter, Sanders and Brewster lighter (and Puritty just tubby).

The guy to beat Riddick Bowe was 6'2 (217)...if you'd like to include the Golota blugeonings, he was 6'4 (243 & 239). Both shorter, both lighter except Golota-Bowe II by four pounds.

Michael Grant's three victorious opponents were 6'5 (247), 6'6 (260) and 6'3 (218 )...all three shorter, only McCline heavier by just by six pounds.

The guy that beat Nikolay Valuev is 6'1 (228 )...vastly shorter and lighter.


Bottom line is, despite the hang-wringing that has often occured over the decades about these big nasty superheavies coming along and picking on the 'little guys', the right person doing the right thing at the right time can make them lose same as anyone else.

The superheavies have their own set of problems due to their size, often relating to coordination and stamina issues. It's not like they're necessary everything a 'normal' heavyweight is but better. yeah we can think of examples where smaller guys beat good extra large heavys, but this is the exception rather than the rule. those extra large guys beat a lot of smaller guys. btw, byrd didn't win so much as vitaly quit because he wanted to avoid injury. look how byrd fared against wlad, byrd had no shot. rahman and mccall are big enough and are legit superheavy's themselves despite being only 6'2 or so. just think what holy would've done to bowe if he were naturally 245 lbs.

i'm just saying the few good natural 245 lbrs have obvious advantages over natural 215 lbrs.

i agree w/ the supercruiser idea plus eliminating all of those small weight classes to go back to the old divisions.