Clinching

[ocelot]

Who are the top fighters who abuse this technique the most, and why don't they have points deducted for it? Seriously, why?

[kirk]

abuse it? maybe hatton and ruiz...

you know... someone that i have never seen clinch is trinidad... if i have i dont remember, maybe in the hopkins fight? but he usually just stands in front of you with his hands to his chin no matter what is going on... lol.

[albeziel]

John Ruiz and Fres Oquendo

[Shpion]

BHOP. But he abuses pretty much all the ilegal tactics, headbuts, elbows, hit and hold and more. Have not seen a point deduction yet.

[ocelot]

BHOP. But he abuses pretty much all the ilegal tactics, headbuts, elbows, hit and hold and more. Have not seen a point deduction yet.
He's definitely one who came to mind. I just watched the Tarver fight again the other day, and I can't figure out how he could grab Tarver so blatantly over and over each round and yet the ref didn't deduct a point. It was a joke.

[PH|LLA]

Hopkins is the best at knowing exactly how to clinch so that he doesn't get deducted.

Its a skill like any other.

[Shpion]

He's definitely one who came to mind. I just watched the Tarver fight again the other day, and I can't figure out how he could grab Tarver so blatantly over and over each round and yet the ref didn't deduct a point. It was a joke.

I am asuming you did not watch his fight with Winky. DON"T!

[Bomber]

Hopkins is the best at knowing exactly how to clinch so that he doesn't get deducted.

Its a skill like any other.

Its a skill called cheating. Its especially successfull when Judges and Refs love you and everything you hold dear.

[greengloves]

Hopkins is the best at knowing exactly how to clinch so that he doesn't get deducted.

Its a skill like any other.

o fuck off,hatton does it,he's ridiculed a cheat,hopkins does it he's named a boxing magician?

[Shpion]

Hopkins is the best at knowing exactly how to clinch so that he doesn't get deducted.

Its a skill like any other.

That way Ruiz is one of the most talented boxers of all times, after all he is the best clincher without point deduction.

[MancMexican]

o fuck off,hatton does it,he's ridiculed a cheat,hopkins does it he's named a boxing magician?

gotta love the consistency of the average boxing fan!

[ocelot]

I'm afraid the Hopkins-Calzaghe fight is going to be closer to a square dance than a boxing match. Both of them repeatedly tie up their opponent's arms- illegally, of course- and get away with it. The fight could be a big letdown.

[SteveO]

I've come to accept clinching in boxing like traveling in pro basketball. It's against the rules, but it's overlooked.

I'd probably be the worst ref in the world because I'd deduct points left and right for clinching and DQ'ing excessive holders.

Scorecards after a 12 rounder would be 18-15.

[PH|LLA]

That way Ruiz is one of the most talented boxers of all times, after all he is the best clincher without point deduction.
you're argument is completely illogical and off base. Ruiz is not one of the most talented of all time because he's been knocked out in 17 seconds by Tua, lost to Roy Jones who was moving up from light heavy, lost to Valuev, lost to Chagaev, lost to James Toney, lost to a shot Holyfield, and whose best wins are a UD against Rahman and a controversial decision against Golota.

you think that the reason he is not considered one of the most talented boxers of all times is because he clinches?

[PH|LLA]

o fuck off,hatton does it,he's ridiculed a cheat,hopkins does it he's named a boxing magician?
Hatton does it and got ktfo

+ i never called Hatton a cheat so you're not making any sense whatsoever.

[PH|LLA]

Its a skill called cheating. Its especially successfull when Judges and Refs love you and everything you hold dear.
the refs love Hopkins?

are you high or just plain stupid?

[scott is cool]

Hatton clinches a lot, but Hopkins though is the daddy of clinching. But they do it very well, so good on them.

[Shpion]

you're argument is completely illogical and off base. Ruiz is not one of the most talented of all time because he's been knocked out in 17 seconds by Tua, lost to Roy Jones who was moving up from light heavy, lost to Valuev, lost to Chagaev, lost to James Toney, lost to a shot Holyfield, and whose best wins are a UD against Rahman and a controversial decision against Golota.

you think that the reason he is not considered one of the most talented boxers of all times is because he clinches?

I am illogical? You are the one stated that the cheating techique called clinching should be considered as a skill.

[PH|LLA]

I am illogical? You are the one stated that the cheating techique called clinching should be considered as a skill.
I said your argument is illogical,

i said that it takes skill to be able to clinch and get away with it the way Hopkins does (i don't see how anyone can deny it), and then you said that Ruiz must be the most talented boxer in the world because he clinches so much, and that is a stupid reply.

OBVIOUSLY, Hopkins' skills are not limited to clinching, and Ruiz, as demonstrated by his career record, is not as talented as Hopkins or a shitload of other boxers.

Just cause it takes talent to clinch effectively, doesn't mean that the only people with talent are good clinchers.

I mean unless you are still in elementary school I don't see how you could fail to understand this.

[TFFP]

I always find it amusing how Hopkins incessant clinching is rarely if ever brought up, yet Hatton is derided as 'Huggy bear' and a 'wrestler' amongst others

Twats

[Cabannero]

the refs love Hopkins?
J Nady called Hopkins 'the ring general' for that and added that B-Hop is 'very intelligent'. I coudn't believe the ref could say so unless he is career is over.

[RICH]

1) john ruiz
2) b-hop
3) hatton
4) oquendo
5) holyfield


I THINK THAT FIGHTERS THAT CLINCH KNOW THEY CLINCH SO WHEN THEY WORK OUT THE DETAILS TO UPCOMING FIGHTS THEY LOOK FOR REFS THAT UNDERSTAND THIS TO AVOID POINT REDUCTIONS.

[Shpion]

I said your argument is illogical,

i said that it takes skill to be able to clinch and get away with it the way Hopkins does (i don't see how anyone can deny it), and then you said that Ruiz must be the most talented boxer in the world because he clinches so much, and that is a stupid reply.

OBVIOUSLY, Hopkins' skills are not limited to clinching, and Ruiz, as demonstrated by his career record, is not as talented as Hopkins or a shitload of other boxers.

Just cause it takes talent to clinch effectively, doesn't mean that the only people with talent are good clinchers.

I mean unless you are still in elementary school I don't see how you could fail to understand this.

Obvioudly BH is 1000 times more talented than Ruiz, that was not even the point. The point is that he incorporates cheeting techniques pretty much in every fight, and has never been penilized for it, even minimally.

[dan-b]

I always find it amusing how Hopkins incessant clinching is rarely if ever brought up, yet Hatton is derided as 'Huggy bear' and a 'wrestler' amongst others

Twats

Maybe because the boxing Hopkins does in between his clinching is better.

[TFFP]

Maybe because the boxing Hopkins does in between his clinching is better.
Hopkins also gets away with a lot of other stuff, when he isn't boxing or clinching

Besides, it's not the point. It's all cheating, and they should be bashed equally for hugging like a family reunion

[dan-b]

Hopkins also gets away with a lot of other stuff, when he isn't boxing or clinching

Besides, it's not the point. It's all cheating, and they should be bashed equally for hugging like a family reunion

Okay lets say I accept that, for arguments sake, do you agree Joe should be given the occasional ticking off for his slaps?

[TFFP]

Okay lets say I accept that, for arguments sake, do you agree Joe should be given the occasional ticking off for his slaps?
This is a thread on clinching

[dan-b]

This is a thread on clinching

You were the one who decided to bring up other infringements.

[TFFP]

You were the one who decided to bring up other infringements.
You were the one that brought up boxing outside clinches

[dan-b]

You were the one that brought up boxing outside clinches

You were the one drawing comparisons between Hatton & Hopkins.

[TFFP]

You were the one drawing comparisons between Hatton & Hopkins.
All on the topic of homo clinching, and it's finest exponents

[dan-b]

All on the topic of homo clinching, and it's finest exponents

It was a veiled way to stick the boot into Hopkins as usual.

[TFFP]

It was a veiled way to stick the boot into Hopkins as usual.
That's because his is classed as ring generalship, unlike Ruiz or Hatton

I take the point his actual boxing is better, but it's cheating all the same

[dan-b]

That's because his is classed as ring generalship, unlike Ruiz or Hatton

I take the point his actual boxing is better, but it's cheating all the same

The fundamental difference is Ruiz & Hatton have styles based around clinching where as Hopkins uses it as part of his style when necessary. A Hatton or Ruiz attack will inevitably end in a clinch whereas with Hopkins that is not always the case.

[TFFP]

The fundamental difference is Ruiz & Hatton have styles based around clinching where as Hopkins uses it as part of his style when necessary. A Hatton or Ruiz attack will inevitably end in a clinch whereas with Hopkins that is not always the case.
Semantics...

Most boxers clinch, but for me there is a certain point at which it starts to get annoying as fuck. All of them pass it with flying colours. They all use it for precisely the same reasons, they are all some of the biggest cheats around

Cheating cnuts the lot of em

[Bodysnatcher]

I think I've even read Hopkins boasting about improving his holding.

Doesn't bother me, it always happened in boxing and always will.

Only annoys me when it gets to Akinwande vs Lewis proportions, which is rare.

[Bodysnatcher]

The fundamental difference is Ruiz & Hatton have styles based around clinching where as Hopkins uses it as part of his style when necessary. A Hatton or Ruiz attack will inevitably end in a clinch whereas with Hopkins that is not always the case.

I might be wrong, memory hazy, but didn't Hatton clinch a hell of at lot less even 2-3 years ago?

That's a genuine question, not making an argument against or for anyone.

[TFFP]

I might be wrong, memory hazy, but didn't Hatton clinch a hell of at lot less even 2-3 years ago?

That's a genuine question, not making an argument against or for anyone. Yes, it started to become more prevelant as he stepped up the competition. He was really exciting as an upcomer

Another explanation could be all those pints he's downing. He doesn't have the gas he once did, so he clings on for dear life

[dan-b]

Semantics...

Most boxers clinch, but for me there is a certain point at which it starts to get annoying as fuck. All of them pass it with flying colours. They all use it for precisely the same reasons, they are all some of the biggest cheats around

Cheating cnuts the lot of em

Just because you keep saying it's cheating doesn't make it true. It may annoy & anger you but it's not against the rules unless it's excessive. Hopkins will clinch Joe, possibly a lot, so get used to it.:good

[dan-b]

I might be wrong, memory hazy, but didn't Hatton clinch a hell of at lot less even 2-3 years ago?

That's a genuine question, not making an argument against or for anyone.

Indeed he did far less clinching when he was fighting people he could get away with standing off from in between attacks.

Yes, it started to become more prevelant as he stepped up the competition. He was really exciting as an upcomer

Another explanation could be all those pints he's downing. He doesn't have the gas he once did, so he clings on for dear life

:good

[Dorfmeister]

I would be so pleased if someone steps up and invokes one boxing rule that rationally gives reason to penalize one given fighter for frequent clinches - and keep in mind it can't be inactivity b.c. others have had more inactive performances without clinching in boxing history.

[mike464]

Ruiz, Hatton and Klitschko

[MacManJr.]

Wlad. All he does since he got with Emmanuel is jab, jab, cross, clinch. I don't remember the last time I saw him throw a hook and you can completely forget about an uppercut! He is still fun to watch though just because his 1-2 is so powerful.

[Dorfmeister]

Ruiz, Hatton and Klitschko

Were Hatton, Ruiz or Klitschko ever penalised for use of that tactic? And what were the referee's or analysts' explanations for that reason?

[Zakman]

That way Ruiz is one of the most talented boxers of all times, after all he is the best clincher without point deduction.

Helps if you have the power of Don King behind you to get that curiously hands off attitude from the officials.

Notice how Ruiz has largely abandoned his excessive holding since King dropped him??

It's no coincidence. And it's also no coincidence he hasn't "beaten" a decent fighter since.

[Shpion]

Helps if you have the power of Don King behind you to get that curiously hands off attitude from the officials.

Notice how Ruiz has largely abandoned his excessive holding since King dropped him??

It's no coincidence. And it's also no coincidence he hasn't "beaten" a decent fighter since.

Well, we all hope het gets KTFO into oblivion, SOON.

[Dostoevsky]

In Japan in K1 (Thats kickboxing) they banned clinching, any fighter that clinches gets warned and eventually points taken away and then purse reduction!
And its not like in the states where it takes dozens of clinches to get a warning its literally the first clinch.

[Zakman]

In Japan in K1 (Thats kickboxing) they banned clinching, any fighter that clinches gets warned and eventually points taken away and then purse reduction!
And its not like in the states where it takes dozens of clinches to get a warning its literally the first clinch.

That's exactly the way it should be in the fight game. :yep

[mstar]

bhop needs to be deducted a point for gds sake why do refs never do that with bhop? its all obvious to all of us on here. Bhop for gods sake FIGHT!!

[mike464]

That's exactly the way it should be in the fight game. :yepYes, fights would be so much more exciting.

[ocelot]

bhop needs to be deducted a point for gds sake why do refs never do that with bhop? its all obvious to all of us on here. Bhop for gods sake FIGHT!!
B-Hop has a Lot of power in American boxing. No ref who wants to ref future high-profile fights is going to risk deducting a point and possibly losing the fight for him.(It's probably the same with Hatton or Calzaghe in England). Watch the Tarver fight again with the sound off. Count how many times each round Hopkins charges and grabs Tarver.

[Bodysnatcher]

You wanna see a lot of clinching, watch most Tyson fights from 85-89 :)

Guys like Mitch Green and Tucker were hanging on for dear life at some points!

Probably why they finished the fight, so can't blame 'em.

[Polymath]

It's when a fighters whole game is clinching that it becomes unwatchable; Hopkins, Wlad et al are dull, but real bums like Ruiz and Hatton shouldn't even be allowed in the ring.

[PH|LLA]

here's a soundbyte of Hopkins talking about how he approaches his illegal tactics

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Zakman]

It's when a fighters whole game is clinching that it becomes unwatchable; Hopkins, Wlad et al are dull, but real bums like Ruiz and Hatton shouldn't even be allowed in the ring.

Exactly. When clinching is used judiciously as a SUPPLEMENT to actual boxing skills, it's one thing - but when it's used as a REPLACEMENT for them, as Ruiz does, that's where it really crosses the line.

A fighter like Ruiz, who is as limited as they come, would never have gotten anywhere in the fight game without cheating.

[PH|LLA]

Clinching can be used as an ELEMENT of boxing skills.

[Dorfmeister]

bhop needs to be deducted a point for gds sake why do refs never do that with bhop? its all obvious to all of us on here. Bhop for gods sake FIGHT!!

Ricky Hatton says it's an art to working in close and finding gaps to land your shots as much as being able to box on the outside - his performance against Tszyu was considered as one of the best by a British boxer ever, he says, and mentions JCC and Roberto Duran as others to have used their hands and arms to find gaps inside in what he calls technical inside fighting. Another example is Frank Bruno that would follow up any given shot on Mike the second time around, tyin him up but it Bernard was the one to be penalised for move-and-grab tactics against Winky by referee Robert Byrd?... Well, Joey was warned not to hold Mikkel with one hand and hit him with the other, rabbit-punch him with clubbing punches by ref Mike Ortega and he wasn't penalised either...

[barneyrub]

Wlad was the clinching grabbing, cuddling and hanging on for dear life master versus Peter. He would lunge in to grab hold and turn his head away at the same time, he held on and leaned down on Peters kneck and back, the ref didnt even warn him until round 11 lol, in fact the ref warned Peter in about round 5 for trying to break free from the vice like grip which was real bizzarre. Randy Newman just seemed to be too old and fat to want to exert himself by getting in and splitting the clinches up so did a terrible job.

[Polymath]

I was/am a Wlad fan, but his jab 'n' grab schtick is becoming unbearable.

[mike464]

Exactly. When clinching is used judiciously as a SUPPLEMENT to actual boxing skills, it's one thing - but when it's used as a REPLACEMENT for them, as Ruiz does, that's where it really crosses the line.

A fighter like Ruiz, who is as limited as they come, would never have gotten anywhere in the fight game without cheating.I don't think clinching should be used to supplement boxing skills any more than low blows should be used to supplement boxing skills.