Floyd patterson Doesn't get enough credit!!

[fg2227]

Don't think he gets enough credit, Just watched Ali- patterson 2 fantastic brillant performance from floyd he was 37 and outweighed by 30 pounds.

I never quite realised how skillfull he was and his speed was lightning.
which brings me to my next point with the modern guys weighing so much i think that people make too much of a big deal about weight i.e Could a foreman or an Ali take on a guy the size of lennox? Give me speed and skill anyday of the week.

What do you guys think about my points?

[Dempsey1238]

Patterson would GET credit if he ever defended the title against a LIVED body in his title rein. You can only defend the title against the Jackson and Petes for so long until people demand a top contender like Liston or Folly.

[Mike South]

Don't think he gets enough credit, Just watched Ali- patterson 2 fantastic brillant performance from floyd he was 37 and outweighed by 30 pounds.

I never quite realised how skillfull he was and his speed was lightning.
which brings me to my next point with the modern guys weighing so much i think that people make too much of a big deal about weight i.e Could a foreman or an Ali take on a guy the size of lennox? Give me speed and skill anyday of the week.

What do you guys think about my points?

Based on your viewing of Ali Patterson 2, is it tha case that Floyd doesn't get enough credit, or is it the case that Ali gets too much?

[fg2227]

Hmmm good point! mike south i'm not sure now that you put it like that. I just feel that alot of fighters would struggle with that Ali.

I think that i just think of the floyd that got destroyed by Liston and so do alot of people. Don't get me wrong i'm not saying that floyd was invincible.

[Sonny's jab]

I think Ali and Foreman are big enough to take on Lennox Lewis, just has Lewis is big enough to take on Valuev. Lewis actually lost to guys who were not really bigger than Foreman.

If you're good enough you're big enough. As Carmelo Modica says it's about talent. And yes, a 188 pound Dempsey poses a real threat to any behemoth.

Obviously almost all the heavyweights of the last 15 years have used steroids or growth hormones. It has made them all bigger, but has probably only made SOME of them better.

[Sardu]

Weight and size may not be important for one fight. However, over the course of a career facing men coniderably larger than oneself can bring dire consequences. Case in point: Jerry Quarry. He did well against guys like Mathis, Foster, Lyle, Shavers, etc. But these larger, heavier guys were still hitting him back. The big men in Dempsey's day were severely limited fighters. Compare Fred Fulton and Jess Willard to modern big men like Lennox Lewis and the Klitschkos. There is no comparision. There is a reason why a 200lb. Roy Jones decided not to defend the title he won from Ruiz. He knew that fighting the big guys is a very dangerous assignment. Patterson was a remarkable fighter. The only times he was really kayoed and overpowered was the first Johansson fight and the two Liston fights. Floyd was resilient and only those two guys (Johansson and Liston) with alltime great punching power kept him down. He was robbed against Ellis in 1968. By that time I guess they wanted new blood and Floyd was a veteran. One of the alltime great gentleman too. Everyone liked Floyd Patterson. Heck, even Liston loved the guy and that is saying alot! Liston did not like most people.

[Minotauro]

I agree he doesn't get enough credit and was an amazing talent also Ali regarded him as the most talented fighter he ever fought.

[jowcol]

Floyd was resilient and only those two guys (Johansson and Liston) with alltime great punching power kept him down.

They didn't keep him down either. He always rose. You never saw Floyd lying prone with the ref tolling away.

As the resident Floyd lover, I have to say it was his own fault that he is, for the most part, underrated. He was just too passive and, save Ingo 2, never carried any killer instinct into the ring.
IMO if he kept that hungry Ingo 2 with him in his other fights
he would have, rather easily, gone 3-0 in his Quarry-Quarry-Ellis trifecta.

my $0.02

[Dempsey1238]

Well you may not have seen Liston 2 than. Patterson got the full count.

[radianttwilight]

Patterson was unfortunate in having Sonny Liston coming in right after he won the title. Same thing happened with Frazier and Foreman.

These two champs more than anybody ran into somebody tailor-made to destroy them relatively early in their title reign.

Although his heavyweight H2H position suffers because of his small stature, he'd most likely be a light heavyweight in today's boxing.

I'd sure as hell pick him over Calzaghe and Hopkins.

[Dempsey1238]

Patterson was unfortunate in having Sonny Liston coming in right after he won the title. Same thing happened with Frazier and Foreman.

These two champs more than anybody ran into somebody tailor-made to destroy them relatively early in their title reign.

Although his heavyweight H2H position suffers because of his small stature, he'd most likely be a light heavyweight in today's boxing.

I'd sure as hell pick him over Calzaghe and Hopkins.

Right after he won the title?? Patterson was champ for YEARS from 1956 up until 61 or 62?? Liston didnt relly make noise until 58 though.

[jowcol]

Well you may not have seen Liston 2 than. Patterson got the full count.

Hey Demp!
As a Patterson lover, I've obviously seen all his fights that are available to see.
I could watch again (maybe not, too painful) but I always thought it was TKO in one, failure to rise in time KO in the other. But he was always getting up, that was my point. You know, maybe this is wishful thinking but I've always wondered what would have happened had the bell saved Floyd in Ingo 1. One thing you could always say about my hero, he had remarkable recouperative powers.

Edit: As to Patterson's 50's weak title defenses, that was all Cus's doing; in retrospect Floyd wanted the best available: Folley, Machen, Williams, DeJohn, an aging Valdez...etc. and I would daresay he may have run the table against them unless his passive soft nature got in the way...

And, as I've said before, with repeated viewings of the Ellis fight, it wasn't the robbery that many (including myself) had said it was.
Patterson simply NEVER consistantly stayed on the attack in his fights; that's why an assessment of him is so darned difficult.

How else can you explain how this HOF numbing left-hook, combination whirlwind would have to take 24 rounds to dispose of Roy Harris & Brian London?

It breaks my heart to realize how much more highly rated he could have been had he kept himself in more of a constant "seek & destroy" mode.

But I guess a less "kinder gentler" Floyd wouldn't have endeared himself to all of us as much...

[jc]

Size does matter.

I think Patterson gets about as much credit as he deserves, he wasnt a great heavyweight champion, he was small and beatable, thats why he doesnt enter in many H2H arguments...I would pick most of todays average heavyweight champs to beat him.

[jowcol]

I would pick most of todays average heavyweight champs to beat him.

With all due respect, I totally disagree. Maybe you're a young man who wasn't around to see the division play out back then.

I've been struggling with the idea that comparing fighters in different eras is misleading, difficult, if not downright impossible!

Let me get nasty :D To say that Floyd loses to "todays average heavyweight champs" is, quite simply, an ill-informed joke!

[Dempsey1238]

Hey Demp!
As a Patterson lover, I've obviously seen all his fights that are available to see.
I could watch again (maybe not, too painful) but I always thought it was TKO in one, failure to rise in time KO in the other. But he was always getting up, that was my point. You know, maybe this is wishful thinking but I've always wondered what would have happened had the bell saved Floyd in Ingo 1. One thing you could always say about my hero, he had remarkable recouperative powers.

Edit: As to Patterson's 50's weak title defenses, that was all Cus's doing; in retrospect Floyd wanted the best available: Folley, Machen, Williams, DeJohn, an aging Valdez...etc. and I would daresay he may have run the table against them unless his passive soft nature got in the way...

And, as I've said before, with repeated viewings of the Ellis fight, it wasn't the robbery that many (including myself) had said it was.
Patterson simply NEVER consistantly stayed on the attack in his fights; that's why an assessment of him is so darned difficult.

How else can you explain how this HOF numbing left-hook, combination whirlwind would have to take 24 rounds to dispose of Roy Harris & Brian London?

It breaks my heart to realize how much more highly rated he could have been had he kept himself in more of a constant "seek & destroy" mode.

But I guess a less "kinder gentler" Floyd wouldn't have endeared himself to all of us as much...

Patterson was not knock cold, but He was not getting up either, he took the full count on his butt. It was not like Marciano Charles II or Walcott Louis II were they ALMOST beat the count.

[Dempsey1238]

The First fight was the ten count looking back at it on Youtube. The sad thing is they cut the count out.

[radianttwilight]

Right after he won the title?? Patterson was champ for YEARS from 1956 up until 61 or 62?? Liston didnt relly make noise until 58 though.

He lost the title to Johannson in late 1959, getting it back the next year. He only held the title from late 1956 to mid 1959 before losing it and regaining it.

[jowcol]

Patterson was not knock cold, but He was not getting up either, he took the full count on his butt. It was not like Marciano Charles II or Walcott Louis II were they ALMOST beat the count.
He was rising both times and almost beat the count; granted it wouldn't have mattered but he didn't take the full count on his butt as you suggested.

[markedwardscott]

agree -- he had lightning hands and even when he got creamed in some fights his quick combos were evident

[Lefty Supremacy]

You think Wlad is... fat???

[kenmore]

Don't think he gets enough credit, Just watched Ali- patterson 2 fantastic brillant performance from floyd he was 37 and outweighed by 30 pounds.

I never quite realised how skillfull he was and his speed was lightning.
which brings me to my next point with the modern guys weighing so much i think that people make too much of a big deal about weight i.e Could a foreman or an Ali take on a guy the size of lennox? Give me speed and skill anyday of the week.

What do you guys think about my points?

I agree with you that Floyd was a sensational fighter with excellent hand speed. It's also true that Patterson gave Ali much better fights than he is credited for. Not by any stretch of the imagination was Patterson a totally outclassed foe...he was competitive against Ali.

But I don't think that Floyd could have troubled the best big heavyweights of today. He was simply too small.

Patterson should be ranked among the other great fighters at heavyweight and cruiserweight who weighed less than 200 lbs. He shouldn't be compared to the super heavyweights like Lewis, the Klitschos, Tyson, Bowe, etc.

[red cobra]

Hey Demp!
As a Patterson lover, I've obviously seen all his fights that are available to see.
I could watch again (maybe not, too painful) but I always thought it was TKO in one, failure to rise in time KO in the other. But he was always getting up, that was my point. You know, maybe this is wishful thinking but I've always wondered what would have happened had the bell saved Floyd in Ingo 1. One thing you could always say about my hero, he had remarkable recouperative powers.

Edit: As to Patterson's 50's weak title defenses, that was all Cus's doing; in retrospect Floyd wanted the best available: Folley, Machen, Williams, DeJohn, an aging Valdez...etc. and I would daresay he may have run the table against them unless his passive soft nature got in the way...

And, as I've said before, with repeated viewings of the Ellis fight, it wasn't the robbery that many (including myself) had said it was.
Patterson simply NEVER consistantly stayed on the attack in his fights; that's why an assessment of him is so darned difficult.

How else can you explain how this HOF numbing left-hook, combination whirlwind would have to take 24 rounds to dispose of Roy Harris & Brian London?

It breaks my heart to realize how much more highly rated he could have been had he kept himself in more of a constant "seek & destroy" mode.

But I guess a less "kinder gentler" Floyd wouldn't have endeared himself to all of us as much...
If Patterson approached every fight as he did against Ingo the second time, he would have accomplished more and been impressive in doing so. I also feel that if he had abandoned the heavyweight division and campaigned instead as a cruiserweight, (if there was one when he was fighting that is) he would have dominated. The trouble with Floyd was that he was perhaps too decent a guy to turn himself into a 'seek and destroy" type of fighter. Maybe his temperment was what made him unique and such of a much beloved figure. Maybe he just refused to compromise himself and become a "killer" and maybe he figured that was worth more in life to him. Whatever the case, he was a decent, fine man with many fine accomplishments in his boxing career, and that's something these newcomers to boxing just don't quite understand.

[radianttwilight]

Patterson started out as a middleweight, how does everyone think he would've faired against the middleweights of the 50s, 60s, and 70s?

[janitor]

I think that Patterson is generaly under rated although most people on this site give him a fair write up.

I have seen websites that describe Patterson as one of the worst of all the heavyweight champions which is far from the case.

[jowcol]

If Patterson approached every fight as he did against Ingo the second time, he would have accomplished more and been impressive in doing so. I also feel that if he had abandoned the heavyweight division and campaigned instead as a cruiserweight, (if there was one when he was fighting that is) he would have dominated. The trouble with Floyd was that he was perhaps too decent a guy to turn himself into a 'seek and destroy" type of fighter. Maybe his temperment was what made him unique and such of a much beloved figure. Maybe he just refused to compromise himself and become a "killer" and maybe he figured that was worth more in life to him. Whatever the case, he was a decent, fine man with many fine accomplishments in his boxing career, and that's something these newcomers to boxing just don't quite understand.

In reading his book, accounts from his friends, and listening to him in interviews, I'm sure he felt exactly as you've wrote. Good post.

Floyd once said he would rather fight a good fight, have the crowd behind him and lose, then fight a poor fight and win.

[round15]

I agree that Floyd Patterson, like Joe Frazier gets very listen respect, historically as a great heavyweights. They both got blown out by bigger guys when they weren't at their very best. One can say Floyd's back was giving him major problems against Liston as was the case against Ali. Patterson was beat before he stepped inside the ring and crumbled at his first look at Liston. IMO I think he could have done a lot better than he showed in those fights. Sonny was probably too much for Floyd to overcome both nights but Floyd looked lost, not using any of the boxing skills that helped him in previous fights. It's a lot more difficult to maneuover around the ring with a bad back, but Floyd could have boxed better and kept his hands higher. Quite a few senior citizens that I've spoken to about his career mention Floyd Patterson as one of the kindest as a person and celebrity. He was a great champion that might've taken Marciano to the limit in what could have been one of the best fights of all time.

[markedwardscott]

maybe fastest hands of any heavyweight

[Dempsey1238]

I dont think Patterson could have taking the Rock to the limit. People are over rated Patterson in this regard imo. Marciano was a step above the Ingos, Jackson's and Petes he battle. And most of them gave Patterson life and death battles.

[freelaw]

You seem to think that big equals great, but the most successful heavyweights were not big. Dempsey, Tunney, Schmeling, Baer, Louis, Marciano, Clay, Tyson. All of them were small compared to today's boxers, and beat fighters who were bigger. The smaller heavyweights were faster, and just as powerful as the "modern" boxers.

Today, people think big equals great because all heavyweights are giants. They are slow, sluggish, and would not last more than two rounds against any of the old-time boxers I mentioned above. Floyd Patterson had a glass chin but Jack Dempsey would plow through any of today's fighters in a matter of seconds, like he did with Jess Willard. Speed means something.

Sultan Ibragimov, who is light by today's standards, weighs 221 lbs. Wladimir Klitschko, another title holder, weighs 242 lbs. This is insane, and the public actually believes that big (fat) equals great. Fat means slow, and it also means these guys are easier to knock out because blood flow to the brain is obstructed by the grease they eat at McDonald's every day. George Foreman is to blame for turning the post-1980's into the golden age of ultra-fat-heavyweight boxing.

Not all of modern HW's are Valuevs. How can you say that Lewis, Bowe, Golota or Vitali were fat and sluggish in their primes?:huh

If you stay fit, fast, skillfull and durable, size DOES matter. I don't think Paterson or Dempsey would last long with any of the ones I mentioned (prime for prime).

[mcvey]

Patterson would GET credit if he ever defended the title against a LIVED body in his title rein. You can only defend the title against the Jackson and Petes for so long until people demand a top contender like Liston or Folly.
Patterson,s reign wasn,t very distinguished true ,but his resume after he lost the tile ,even into his mid 30s ,is very solid ,he took on punchers ,swarmers ,boxers all styles and did very well,he is generally sold a little short ,I feel,not top ten as Champ but a fine fighter,he went down a lot ,but he mostly got up ,he had heart as well as talent.