Can Wladimir become an ATG?

[RAMPAGE0017]

Anyone whose ever seen any of my posts knows I'm the furthest thing from a WALD nut-hugger, so don't get the wrong idea here. :lol:


The last thing I want to do right now is make a thread about Wladimir since everyone is pretty much running the topic into the ground since his recent success, but I'm curious.... seeing as most of you seem to think the heavyweight division as it stands is the worst in it's history, can Wladimir accomplish ATG status? IMO, the only questionable threats he has at the moment are Ruslan Chagaev and Sam Peter, and it's debatable as to whether or not there's more. Most of who he's beaten have pretty much been dismissed as " bums " or " has-beens ", even Brewster, who some have claimed " had his number " are now dismissing him as nothing special. So in your opinion.. can Wladimir accomplish such a status in today's division?

[liljp361]

Yeah but theres a problem with him when he is punched lol

[Seamus]

If anyone in these days of split championships has a chance, it is him. Head to head, I already take against many sacrosant fighters of the past. As long as he has Manny behind him.

[Olander]

Not with the current weakness of the heavyweight division. It's not like he's fighting in the era of Ali-Foreman-Frazier-Norton, and he just missed out on the Tyson-Holyfield-Lewis era.

[RAMPAGE0017]

and he just missed out on the Tyson-Holyfield-Lewis era.



Well.. he didn't miss out on it, he just wasn't as successful at the time.

[Heavyrighthand]

I want to know why some seem to really get their panties in a bunch when Wlad is compared to Ali, as if Wlad is not even worthy to be mentioned in the same thread as Ali.

Ali was one of the all time best heavies, ever, certianly, but he could be beaten, and was beaten by a few fighters who didn't have have the assets that Wlad does.

Not saying what may happen on any given night....I am merely making an observation.

[RAMPAGE0017]

I want to know why some seem to really get their panties in a bunch when Wlad is compared to Ali, as if Wlad is not even worthy to be mentioned in the same thread as Ali.

Its not like Ali was the unbeatable boxing GOD. Frazier, Spinks, Holmes,all beat him. I saw many of Ali's fights, and someone with Wlad's reach and power would stand a good chance at getting to Ali.

Anyone can be beaten on any given night, as we've seen, over and over again.


I agree, but some people think fighters of the past are at this mythical peak that just can't be touched.... it's common mainly in Ali and Tyson supporters. " Prime Tyson KOs everyone in the first round ", " Nobody stands a chance against Ali in his prime " yada yada yada.

[brooklyn1550]

I want to know why some seem to really get their panties in a bunch when Wlad is compared to Ali

Because Wladimir hasn't accomplished nearly the amount Ali did, he hasn't shown the heart Ali did, and he is not considered one of the 5 or 10 best fighters in boxing like Ali is.

With that said, he would give Ali a pretty good fight - especially in the second half of Ali's career. Could he beat that Ali that lost to Norton and the Ali around that time? Yes

[boxingcar]

Not with the current weakness of the heavyweight division. It's not like he's fighting in the era of Ali-Foreman-Frazier-Norton, and he just missed out on the Tyson-Holyfield-Lewis era.

(this is a repost)
--------------------

Originally Posted by C.J.Rock
I was at the Cooper-Ali fight To say Cooper owned Ali is preposterous
I was pro Cooper in that fight but Ali was dominating and started showboating Henry caught him with the perfect left hook and put him down in the final seconds of the round. Angelo 's quick thinking and Ali's ability to take a punch enabled him to survive. I went to that fight hoping to see the Louisville Lip silenced and left it a life long Ali fan
Theres not a HW fighting today that would have a prayer against Ali
Lennox is the best since Ali thats for sure

------------

(response)

Yes Ali was dominating but since you've seen the fight.
You know as well as I do that this fight should've been a huge upset.

It never happened because Ali's corner did the right thing at the right time...Without his bullshit excuses...And with an instant restart...Ali would've been either Koed or Tkoed.

My point still stands...We all know that Muhammad Ali , is the #1 HW of all time.

But my point is , if Cooper could do it. (no offense)
Just imagine what a huge , skilled fighter would've done...
I repeat , there was no such thing as a Lennox Lewis back in Ali's era.

And like I said before , most of his competition was mainly against US fighters too. the competition wasn't as international as it is today.

Better yet , the term "white hope" became a norm in the english language because the only white boxers america used to have were monumental cans for the afro american athlete.

Best white american HW fighter they used to have back then (in Ali's era) was Jerry Quarry. And that's not saying much...Even though Quarry had a lot of heart and was always ready for a war
------------------------------

It's all relative...Tyson used to beat monumental bums...and no one was ever bitching about it.

[hobgoblin]

After this fight, I have him at #10 right behind Holyfield at #9, and Vitali at #8 and just ahead of Lennox Lewis who trails behind at #11. I think he already is a top ten fighter no doubt.

[oblate]

Anyone whose ever seen any of my posts knows I'm the furthest thing from a WALD nut-hugger, so don't get the wrong idea here. :lol:


The last thing I want to do right now is make a thread about Wladimir since everyone is pretty much running the topic into the ground since his recent success, but I'm curious.... seeing as most of you seem to think the heavyweight division as it stands is the worst in it's history, can Wladimir accomplish ATG status? IMO, the only questionable threats he has at the moment are Ruslan Chagaev and Sam Peter, and it's debatable as to whether or not there's more. Most of who he's beaten have pretty much been dismissed as " bums " or " has-beens ", even Brewster, who some have claimed " had his number " are now dismissing him as nothing special. So in your opinion.. can Wladimir accomplish such a status in today's division?
i think the heavweight division right now is far better then it was when brewster, ruiz, byrd, and injured vitali had the belts.

[ajohnfp]

After this fight, I have him at #10 right behind Holyfield at #9, and Vitali at #8 and just ahead of Lennox Lewis who trails behind at #11. I think he already is a top ten fighter no doubt.

:lol: You're kidding right?

[ajohnfp]

I want to know why some seem to really get their panties in a bunch when Wlad is compared to Ali, as if Wlad is not even worthy to be mentioned in the same thread as Ali.

Ali was one of the all time best heavies, ever, certianly, but he could be beaten, and was beaten by a few fighters who didn't have have the assets that Wlad does.

Not saying what may happen on any given night....I am merely making an observation.

Wlad is a good fighter, the best in the division now, but his career is not comparable to Ali's right now. It's not even close. Wlad's career is not even comparable to Ali's best opponents' careers.

[brooklyn1550]

After this fight, I have him at #10 right behind Holyfield at #9, and Vitali at #8 and just ahead of Lennox Lewis who trails behind at #11. I think he already is a top ten fighter no doubt.

What are you talking about?

[Asterion]

Wlad can become a real All Time Great if he beats 6 more contenders, while unifying belts and becoming Lineal Champ.

The rankings change with time, so it's impossible to give a list of fighters that he should beat, but I'll risk to give one: Chagaev, Peter, Rahman, Virchis, Valuev or Liakhovich, Krasniqi or Sanders (only to avenge).

[Martini643]

he already is among the best heavyweights in the past 20 years, why wouldnt he be ranked as an ATG

[hobgoblin]

he already is among the best heavyweights in the past 20 years, why wouldnt he be ranked as an ATG

spot on. i'd think he'd be champion in ANY era.

[liljp361]

If they allow him to wear headgear he can.

lol

[Mind Reader]

spot on. i'd think he'd be champion in ANY era.


I think a prime Tyson would have knocked him out, I don't think he could beat Ali or Foreman, and I think Lennox would have taken him too.

[Mind Reader]

The best right now, but for sure not a sure spot ATG yet, the division is at its weakest in a long time, cant go yelling ATG, we will just have to see.

[Fallow]

Wlad is my favourite fighter ever, but even I will admit that he is a bit shit, glass chin, limited offense and crumbles in moments of crisis. Wlad, I will always support you, but you will never be great, you've been served too many times already. :(

[My dinner with Conteh]

After this fight, I have him at #10 right behind Holyfield at #9, and Vitali at #8 and just ahead of Lennox Lewis who trails behind at #11. I think he already is a top ten fighter no doubt.


Are you serious? Jesus, is this why the posters in the classic forum always laugh at you guys. :huh

[hobgoblin]

Are you serious? Jesus, is this why the posters in the classic forum always laugh at you guys. :huh

As far back as I can remember, no one has ever looked down upon me in the classic forum and I do post there every now and then (over half of my posts are in that forum over the course of 3 years).

[My dinner with Conteh]

As far back as I can remember, no one has ever looked down upon me in the classic forum and I do post there every now and then (over half of my posts are in that forum over the course of 3 years).


Vitali at 8 is quite laughable.

[Stimulant]

Wlad is my favourite fighter ever, but even I will admit that he is a bit shit, glass chin, limited offense and crumbles in moments of crisis. Wlad, I will always support you, but you will never be great, you've been served too many times already. :(

Nice troll.. but LOL @ limited offense

:)

[Jazzo]

A better question would be, will he ever be a champ?

[hobgoblin]

Vitali at 8 is quite laughable.

you're suggesting i should have him higher? after all, vitali has the highest KO% among champions and he had a defining fight (your ali-frazier, tyson-holyfield etc) in a war against lennox lewis that ended in similar fashion to ali-frazier III. i may actually go with your suggestion.

i agree with you, vitali should be higher - but i'll wait and see.

[My dinner with Conteh]

you're suggesting i should have him higher? after all, vitali has the highest KO% among champions and he had a defining fight (your ali-frazier, tyson-holyfield etc) in a war against lennox lewis that ended in similar fashion to ali-frazier III. i may actually go with your suggestion.

i agree with you, vitali should be higher - but i'll wait and see.


Yeah, he should be 1 or 2. :good

[Cachibatches]

Its going to be an uphill battle. The opponents just aren't there yet.

If he gets the winner of Chag/Sultan, wins big, and has a good couple of matches agaisnt Povetkin, then yeah, he'll be remembered as such.

Its ironic, but the way boxing works is that he almost has to have a loss to be remembered as greater. If he had three matches against Povetkin winning two, then eveyone says they are roughly equal in ability, and it showed such a great champion's heart to win. If he shellacks Povetkin in two rounds, then they will thing Alexander just wasn't the guy in the first place.

[Leeroy]

Not with the current weakness of the heavyweight division. It's not like he's fighting in the era of Ali-Foreman-Frazier-Norton, and he just missed out on the Tyson-Holyfield-Lewis era.

It's ridiculous to assume Wlad wont be rated as an all time great if he beats his competition.....

Each fighter,in every era are judged by their performances,and competition.

[DanePugilist]

I think it will be hard for Klitschko to become an ATG - his skills are there, but the opponents are not.

[0-1]

I'd say he needs to beat the winner of Ibragimov-Chagaev; KO Peter; beat one of the old-timers (McCall or Holyfield preferably); and beat Povetkin, Haye, Solis, Greenberg, maybe Skelton, though not just yet for most of them, and Sanders, after he's had a couple more comeback wins. A win against Lyakhovich wouldn't be bad either.

[Doppleganger]

After this fight, I have him at #10 right behind Holyfield at #9, and Vitali at #8 and just ahead of Lennox Lewis who trails behind at #11. I think he already is a top ten fighter no doubt.

Are you serious? :patsch

[Antsu]

you're suggesting i should have him higher? after all, vitali has the highest KO% among champions and he had a defining fight (your ali-frazier, tyson-holyfield etc) in a war against lennox lewis that ended in similar fashion to ali-frazier III. i may actually go with your suggestion.

i agree with you, vitali should be higher - but i'll wait and see.

It would be interesting to hear why you put him above Lewis who beat him in that career defining fight and has better accomplishments.

[hobgoblin]

It would be interesting to hear why you put him above Lewis who beat him in that career defining fight and has better accomplishments.
it wouldn't be interesting...it'd be utterly stupid! :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

although on a more serious note: up to now, that fight has been a defining one for vitali and in a good way too. it shows that he belongs in the ring with a champion, he has heart, and that he can carry his great traits against a top fighter (the question that many are still asking of wlad - how would he do against a decent fighter). before the lewis fight, a lot of people questioned vitali's opposition.

of course he clearly lost the fight and it'd be silly to rate him above lewis. the only thing that he beats lewis with is a superior chin but besides that he failed to pick up from that fight in 2003 and live up to his potential. it has been 4 years now! however, a loss is not always negative. even though frazier lost manila or against foreman or holy lost to bowe - the losses said a lot about the fighter. hanging in there with lewis - vitali showed he could bang with the best. too bad about that cut.

[Beatboxer]

If Wlad beats Chagaev Sultan Peter again and Povetkin then i believe you have to regard him as at least top 20 perhaps top 15

people will always question his chin though and i don't think he will get many backers in head to head debates against top 10 greats such as tyson lewis foreman louis etc etc

[hobgoblin]

Are you serious? :patsch

:patsch

ever hear of something called sarcasm?

[SevenSamurai]

If he beats chagaev to win the WBA and WBO

and then the wbc belt holder whether it is peter again or maskaev then he becomes undisputed heavyweight champion.

People forget he is a much better fighter now than he ever was.

He can then be considered in the top 20 atleast once he has retired, otherwise he cannot be.

[Boro chris]

After this fight, I have him at #10 right behind Holyfield at #9, and Vitali at #8 and just ahead of Lennox Lewis who trails behind at #11. I think he already is a top ten fighter no doubt.

:admin Based on what mate?
Fuck all I presume.
I've just realised you were probably joking. Oooops!

[hobgoblin]

you guys have to look at the history and conventional wisdom. what great fighters of the past (you top 15) suffered the kinds of losses that wlad suffered and then went on to achieve enough to erase thoses losses and be top 15? none that i can think of in the 100 years of hw boxing

if norton was dismantled - it was against all time great punchers like foreman and shavers (who earned fame for other than just killing norton). he at least had the achievment of competitively going 15 rounds with ali & holmes (achievments far better than anything wlad has done and this overrides my opinion that wlad would destroy norton head to head (you also have to consider how the two would do against other opponents and wlad wouldn't have norton's success imo and this counts for something)).

if patterson loss it was to champions like ingo and liston. not guys like corey sanders, lamon brewster, and ross purrity. those guys were nothing special whereas someone like douglas against tyson was highly touted for the undeniable skills he showed independent of tyson! that douglas would have been a good fight for anyone with the undeniable handspeed ring generalship, ability to get up from a punch and win, etc. i'm not trying to give everyone except wlad the benefit of the doubt. even lewis never had AS embarassing losses as wlad or as many.

sure, the past does not reflect what wlad can do in the future. but look at history and tell me someone who has had such an AVERAGE career as wlad (his losses to those fighters show it) WELL INTO HIS CAREEER (what he won gold 11 years ago!?!) and then came back to make top 15. the answer: 0. can wlad beat history?

very unlikely. i think if wlad wants to make top 15, he needs to dominate for 3 years at least! hell, even guys like tyson who dominated for 4 years etc don't make the top 10 but are in the top 15 slot for some. just winning 3 fights ain't gonna cut it.

i don't imaging wlad being ATG (top 10) there is a VERY small chance that wlad transfrom and dominate for 5 years and beat quality fightrs (if they show up in this dying sport). can he make top 15? MAYBE but very slim chance.

[Sakura]

If i were wlad i'll fight with Golota, Holyfield (even it's little sad) and other tittle holders..nice fight next would be Valuev or Ruiz..atleast you get good names on your list.

[RAMPAGE0017]

IMO, if Chagaev beats Ibragimov, that will give Wladimir a formidable opponent. Next to Wladimir, nobody in the division has a resume like Chagaev, and if he beats Ibragimov that'll just put him even further.

[Betty Swollocks]

no way, he's beating a few duds these days...wait until he fights a stiff challenge again...he will be parked again....Wlad has been on more canvases than Rembtandt.

[Cachibatches]

no way, he's beating a few duds these days...wait until he fights a stiff challenge again...he will be parked again....Wlad has been on more canvases than Rembtandt.
I agree with you that Wladdy is beatable by someone with power who physically challenges him, but the question is, who?

I love Chag, but is he that powerful? Wladdy has already beaten Peter and Lamon. He ain't fighting his brother.

Even Povetkin does not seem to have that one punch KO power.

[Hax0rJimDuggan]

If he can unify the belts in a watered down era, I would put him on the ATG list... near the bottom. If he can't do that, then I personally don't feel he should be mentioned as one.

[Rock0052]

My guess is that he will be an ATG, assuming he goes undefeated for another 2-3 years, racking up defenses and at least unifying 2 of the 3 other belts...but he probably won't be remembered as such until after he retires, much like Lennox Lewis.

It's almost an insult to even mention most currently active fighters as ATG's to many people, but once that fighter retires, everyone looks at the next guy in line- and that's when it'll hit them that hey, maybe the last guy was great after all. Right now alot of people are waiting for Wlad to fail (again, just like with Lewis)....if he retires without losing again, those same people are going to finally look at the entire body of work and realize he was a hell of a heavyweight.

[MachineGunMitch]

in order to be an ATG you have to be great and beat other great fighters
He has done none of the above -He really hasent beat anyone spectacular
nor any big names - if he unifies which he wont then he would be the best
of his decade

[Rock0052]

you guys have to look at the history and conventional wisdom. what great fighters of the past (you top 15) suffered the kinds of losses that wlad suffered and then went on to achieve enough to erase thoses losses and be top 15? none that i can think of in the 100 years of hw boxing

if norton was dismantled - it was against all time great punchers like foreman and shavers (who earned fame for other than just killing norton). he at least had the achievment of competitively going 15 rounds with ali & holmes.

if patterson loss it was to champions like ingo and liston. not guys like corey sanders, lamon brewster, and ross purrity. those guys were nothing special whereas someone like douglas against tyson was highly touted for the undeniable skills he showed independent of tyson! that douglas would have been a good fight for anyone with the undeniable handspeed ring generalship, ability to get up from a punch and win, etc. i'm not trying to give everyone except wlad the benefit of the doubt. even lewis never had AS embarassing losses as wlad or as many.


It's ironic that Norton and Patterson are your examples, because those are the guys to me that one could argue Wlad ranks higher than right now. Norton and Patterson were worse at taking punches than Wlad is. I say that with all due respect to both guys, as I'm a fan of Patterson's as well, but it's a double standard when other people have KO losses not held against them.

It can't go both ways- either the losses get held against everybody the way they do for Wlad, or you have to look at the context of every loss for everybody the way you're doing for the "classic" fighters.

I personally lean towards the latter because I'd rather focus on what the fighter did in their entire 40+ fight career as opposed to ignoring the entire body of work to simply to focus on a couple of losses. The losses carry weight; but it's pretty haterish to hold the new fighters to that much of a higher standard. It should be equal footing for everyone.

[Shamrock]

If anyone in these days of split championships has a chance, it is him. Head to head, I already take against many sacrosant fighters of the past. As long as he has Manny behind him.

Right on! :good

[hobgoblin]

It's ironic that Norton and Patterson are your examples, because those are the guys to me that one could argue Wlad ranks higher than right now. Norton and Patterson were worse at taking punches than Wlad is. I say that with all due respect to both guys, as I'm a fan of Patterson's as well, but it's a double standard when other people have KO losses not held against them.

It can't go both ways- either the losses get held against everybody the way they do for Wlad, or you have to look at the context of every loss for everybody the way you're doing for the "classic" fighters.

I personally lean towards the latter because I'd rather focus on what the fighter did in their entire 40+ fight career as opposed to ignoring the entire body of work to simply to focus on a couple of losses. The losses carry weight; but it's pretty haterish to hold the new fighters to that much of a higher standard. It should be equal footing for everyone.

i deliberately chose those examples because they are the most vulnerables one for one to say wlad ranks higher. did you mean to say you lean towards "former" and not "latter"? the "latter" in your context was my method too. look at the loss in the context (not excuse). losing to sonny liston during an undisputed championship belt is one thing - losing to corey sanders is something completely different IMO. if you think i hold double standards againt klitschkos- i dont hold much against vitali for his loss against lennox (if anything i see it in VERY positive light for vitali because it proved a lot of good things about him).

those losses say something about a fighter. isn't lennox lewis suffering so much bashing for life because of his two losses (which weren't nearly as poor as wlad's). in lewis' case, it shows that he doesn't have a granite chin. in wlad's case, it says his chin is average or below but more so - if his chin can't help him, he doesn't make up for it with survival skills or ability to rally while hurt like holmes. can this be later changed? absolutely. but we're going to have to see a LOT to define a change. now, wlad is 11 years into his career? how many fighters in history have been able to make such a turn around? none that i can think of.

theoretically it is possible for wlad - practically the chances are very little IMO (whereas you proly have more optimistic expections). i think wlad fans try to lower the standars for him to be top 20 (just beating 3 contenders in one era is not enough as some claim - there were LOTS of contenders you and i don't know about that had 3 great wins over good contenders but we don't hear of them because top 20 is not a joke it is not easy to make that list. there are high standards for them.

1. ali
2. louis
3. liston
4. holmes
5. foreman
6. dempsey
7. frazier
8. marciano
9. holyfield
10. lennox lewis
11. mike tyson
12. riddick bowe
13. jack johnson
14. jim jeffries
15. max baer
16. gene tunney
17. max schmelling
18. jesse willard
19. floyd patterson (i feel guilty about keeping him so low just because a lot of those guy above would beat him head to head - his achievments, abilities, and regaining the title make him immortal)
20. ken norton

That is a pretty filled up list right there. I can't justify taking out an of those guys and IMO that is a very distinguished crowd right there. Guys like Vitali, Buster Douglas (yes, even he!), Ingo, etc. have higher priority of claim to hte list than Wlad.

[2smart4u]

i deliberately chose those examples because they are the most vulnerables one for one to say wlad ranks higher. did you mean to say you lean towards "former" and not "latter"? the "latter" in your context was my method too. look at the loss in the context (not excuse). losing to sonny liston during an undisputed championship belt is one thing - losing to corey sanders is something completely different IMO. if you think i hold double standards againt klitschkos- i dont hold much against vitali for his loss against lennox (if anything i see it in VERY positive light for vitali because it proved a lot of good things about him).

those losses say something about a fighter. isn't lennox lewis suffering so much bashing for life because of his two losses (which weren't nearly as poor as wlad's). in lewis' case, it shows that he doesn't have a granite chin. in wlad's case, it says his chin is average or below but more so - if his chin can't help him, he doesn't make up for it with survival skills or ability to rally while hurt like holmes. can this be later changed? absolutely. but we're going to have to see a LOT to define a change. now, wlad is 11 years into his career? how many fighters in history have been able to make such a turn around? none that i can think of.

theoretically it is possible for wlad - practically the chances are very little IMO (whereas you proly have more optimistic expections). i think wlad fans try to lower the standars for him to be top 20 (just beating 3 contenders in one era is not enough as some claim - there were LOTS of contenders you and i don't know about that had 3 great wins over good contenders but we don't hear of them because top 20 is not a joke it is not easy to make that list. there are high standards for them.

1. ali
2. louis
3. liston
4. holmes
5. foreman
6. dempsey
7. frazier
8. marciano
9. holyfield
10. lennox lewis
11. mike tyson
12. riddick bowe
13. jack johnson
14. jim jeffries
15. max baer
16. gene tunney
17. max schmelling
18. jesse willard
19. floyd patterson (i feel guilty about keeping him so low just because a lot of those guy above would beat him head to head - his achievments, abilities, and regaining the title make him immortal)
20. ken norton

That is a pretty filled up list right there. I can't justify taking out an of those guys and IMO that is a very distinguished crowd right there. Guys like Vitali, Buster Douglas (yes, even he!), Ingo, etc. have higher priority of claim to hte list than Wlad.:patsch you do realize your list could be ripped apart dont you ? You are aware that guys like SONNEY defended titles just one time against 180 pounders right ? GEORGE defended against who again ? DEMPSEY took how long betweeen defences ? ect ect ! you seem to insinuate VLAD must do much more then anyone else to get accepted as an all time great ! PS LARRY fought the most pathetic bunch of contenders of all ! :deal your to smart to make these rediculous claims HOB ! :bbb