Sonny Liston v.s Rocky Marciano

[Bad_Intentions]

who takes it?

[McGrain]

I actually think that Rocky would really trouble Liston.

But I do see the outcome as pretty much inevetable. Perhaps he'd be ahead on the scorecards but I guess Rocky would get KO'D before the end of the 5th.

Nobody hit like Sonny.

[jc]

i can only see one winner in this and it is Sonny Liston. Everything Rocky does plays into Listons hands imo.

Clay layed the blue print on how to be a peak Sonny, i really doubt Rocky can box like that.

I think Marciano will be KOd before 10.

[Ramon Rojo]

Liston by KO 1 - 4

[janitor]

I cannot think of a champion who would be worse news for Marciano stylisticaly than Liston.

[Jupiter1610]

I cannot think of a champion who would be worse news for Marciano stylisticaly than Liston.

Agreed. The only way Rocky might stand a chance is to get inside, and Liston's freakishly long, powerful jab is not letting that happen. Liston wins by mid round KO.

[McGrain]

I cannot think of a champion who would be worse news for Marciano stylisticaly than Liston.

I actually tend to disagree. A guy who comes straight at him and is able to take his shots without taking them might just throw him for a few rounds. A thrown fighter might just have trouble with Rocky.

But i'd bet on Liston, for sure.

[timmers612]

I wish I could pick Marciano here, but I can't. Sonnys jab and uppercuts would make the Rocks face anything but pretty. Frazier bobbed a little deeper then the Rock but I think the result is the same, Sonny by ko. Dempsey is the exception here and I would have it a pick-em because Jack could move around and then dart in when he had too, plus at his best Jack was very fast doing this also.

[rekcutnevets]

I wish I could find away to disagree just to give another perspective. I can't.

[hobgoblin]

Liston would destroy all three swarmer: Marciano, Frazier, and Tyson. It is a styles issue. Granted, those three are vastly different from Patterson but still look at the stylistic aspect.

[Muchmoore]

My initial thought was Liston, but im having second thoughts now.

Liston was bigger and had an absolute GIANT edge in reach. His power was also better and he had a much better jab than Marciano. But Marciano had better stamina and was tougher.

If Marciano can not get blown out early his workrate would start to take away Listons stamina and leave him open and that would be his best chance. But the best bet is that Liston is able to keep him at the end of his jab and rough him up bad.

Liston by UD.

[C. M. Clay II]

I cannot think of a champion who would be worse news for Marciano stylisticaly than Liston.

I couldn't have said it better myself.:good

[C. M. Clay II]

Luigi must be burning up right now.:yep

[Bad_Intentions]

Luigi must be burning up right now.:yepbutterfly..:D

[fightking12]

Probably Liston will win because Marciano fought at a lighter weight back then

[Mega Lamps]

Interesting fight. This fight would not be fought on the outside very long so reach won't be much of a factor on the outside. Both men would take a beating but I see Marciano pressuring him nonstop and testing his heart and stamina, with Marciano raising his hand in victory at the end with either a decision win or stoppage late.

[Executioner]

I have always thought Liston would win a close decision, but after thinking about it several times I've changed my pick.

Liston would dominate the early rounds with his wicked left jab, and stunning Rocky a few times with big right hands and left hooks but by the later stages of the fight Rocky would come on strong, rally late to take a razor thin decision.

[Luigi1985]

Marciano KO 8 Liston



Liston simply didn´t have the legacy that we could really believe he could beat a legend like Marciano. Beside a mental ill and for a puncher tailor-made Patterson his resume is totally thin, Liston is the typical type of "Could have, should, he would, etc.", IMO Marciano´s power, heart and chin would be too much for the one-dimensional Liston...

[Luigi1985]

Luigi must be burning up right now.:yep


Opinions from idiots like you don´t interest me, you should know it yet.

[ChrisPontius]

Marciano KO 8 Liston



Liston simply didn´t have the legacy that we could really believe he could beat a legend like Marciano. Beside a mental ill and for a puncher tailor-made Patterson his resume is totally thin, Liston is the typical type of "Could have, should, he would, etc.", IMO Marciano´s power, heart and chin would be too much for the one-dimensional Liston...

I'm with you on this one, actually.

Well, i would favor Liston a bit, but i think Marciano has more chance than most imply. Williams, who had a glass chin, made it to round 2 & 3 in a slugfest, so Marciano may just last longer and if he's still there by the 6th, i think Liston will start getting some "shoulder injuries". Marciano's determination, stamina and akwardness would come in.

Marciano fought better opposition (with the exception of Clay, but Liston lost to him twice) and he never quit as blatantly as Liston did.


I think a fight with Foreman far worse for Marciano.

[Luigi1985]

I'm with you on this one, actually.

Well, i would favor Liston a bit, but i think Marciano has more chance than most imply. Williams, who had a glass chin, made it to round 2 & 3 in a slugfest, so Marciano may just last longer and if he's still there by the 6th, i think Liston will start getting some "shoulder injuries". Marciano's determination, stamina and akwardness would come in.

Marciano fought better opposition (with the exception of Clay, but Liston lost to him twice) and he never quit as blatantly as Liston did.


I think a fight with Foreman far worse for Marciano.


Yeah, agreed!

[Sonny's jab]

Marciano was tough as a piece of iron.

I think Liston was bigger, stronger, a better boxer, and I know he was VERY TOUGH but I dont know if he was tough enough to beat Marciano.

I just dont know.

[Luigi1985]

Marciano was tough as a piece of iron.

I think Liston was bigger, stronger, a better boxer, and I know he was VERY TOUGH but I dont know if he was tough enough to beat Marciano.

I just dont know.


Fair statement from a Liston-fan! Good to see that someone can be objective even to his favourite fighters! :thumbsup

[Luigi1985]

Liston's stare has no effect on Marciano. By the middle of the fight it is Liston who is wanting out of there. Liston is not going to beat any of the big three - Dempsey, Louis, Marciano. He was good but not THAT good.

Exactly!

[McGrain]

Liston simply didn´t have the legacy that we could really believe he could beat a legend like Marciano. Beside a mental ill and for a puncher tailor-made Patterson his resume is totally thin, Liston is the typical type of "Could have, should, he would, etc.", IMO Marciano´s power, heart and chin would be too much for the one-dimensional Liston...

Hey Luigi.

I tell you what, I think i'm the only guy on the first three pages of this thread to speak up for Rocky's chances. But I still had to predict a Liston win. Liston spent most of his career working out how to get people to come to him, and this guy here wouldn't be hard to find (Rocky's a people's fighter for sure). Liston is going to bowl Rocky over at some stage - he got dropped by lesser punchers, even as champ - and when - and I do say when, he would beat the count - he'd have a proper heavyweight finisher right after him.

You know?

[Luigi1985]

Hey Luigi.

I tell you what, I think i'm the only guy on the first three pages of this thread to speak up for Rocky's chances. But I still had to predict a Liston win. Liston spent most of his career working out how to get people to come to him, and this guy here wouldn't be hard to find (Rocky's a people's fighter for sure). Liston is going to bowl Rocky over at some stage - he got dropped by lesser punchers, even as champ - and when - and I do say when, he would beat the count - he'd have a proper heavyweight finisher right after him.

You know?


I can live with such a scenario, but I can´t see that it´s happens. Liston wasn´t the murderous puncher like many of you make him. Some Marciano bombs and he would be knocked out. He´s IMO one, if not the most overrated HW outthere...

[McGrain]

I can live with such a scenario, but I can´t see that it´s happens. Liston wasn´t the murderous puncher like many of you make him. Some Marciano bombs and he would be knocked out. He´s IMO one, if not the most overrated HW outthere...

Well he is one of two things - one of the absolute elite heavyweight punchers or very overated. Let me ask you though; what is it you think would lead to the fighter becoming so overated? The bad guy in the Ali fight. Then the guy that took the dive. 0wned by the mob. Died messing with heroin. You know guys like Louis, Ali, Dempsey, Hagler, Leonard, De La Hoya, I could see how hero worship would cause these men to become overated. But why Liston?

[Luigi1985]

Well he is one of two things - one of the absolute elite heavyweight punchers or very overated. Let me ask you though; what is it you think would lead to the fighter becoming so overated? The bad guy in the Ali fight. Then the guy that took the dive. 0wned by the mob. Died messing with heroin. You know guys like Louis, Ali, Dempsey, Hagler, Leonard, De La Hoya, I could see how hero worship would cause these men to become overated. But why Liston?


He simply didn´t impress me against elite fighters that much that I favour him against proven fighters like Marciano, Frazier, etc., he could have been more, but he didn´t, so I can´t pick him over fighters of the calibre like Rocky...

[C. M. Clay II]

Some Marciano bombs and he would be knocked out.

Yeah, even though Marciano was teeing off on LHW Ezzard Charles round after round for 15 rounds and couldn't put him away, had to keep putting down ancient Archie Moore five times in nine rounds before he stayed down, struggled to finish off lightheavy Don Cockell, but he's gonna ice Liston with a couple of punches? This is biasedness at it's finest.:good

[Marciano Frazier]

Yeah, even though Marciano was teeing off on LHW Ezzard Charles round after round for 15 rounds and couldn't put him away, had to keep putting down ancient Archie Moore five times in nine rounds before he stayed down, struggled to finish off lightheavy Don Cockell, but he's gonna ice Liston with a couple of punches? This is biasedness at it's finest.:good Those fights occured when Marciano was utilizing a centrally volume-punching style, having shifted the focus of his punching since his early big fights. If you want a Marciano who could take out a serious elite opponent with a "couple of punches," look at his fights with Layne, Louis, Matthews and Walcott.
That said, I'm doubtful that any version of Marciano could take out Liston without dishing out a fair amount of punishment first.

[Marciano Frazier]

Hey Luigi.

I tell you what, I think i'm the only guy on the first three pages of this thread to speak up for Rocky's chances. But I still had to predict a Liston win. No, actually, just glancing down this page, I see at least four people who've picked Marciano.

[Luigi1985]

Yeah, even though Marciano was teeing off on LHW Ezzard Charles round after round for 15 rounds and couldn't put him away, had to keep putting down ancient Archie Moore five times in nine rounds before he stayed down, struggled to finish off lightheavy Don Cockell, but he's gonna ice Liston with a couple of punches? This is biasedness at it's finest.:good

Like Marciano_Frazier wrote correctly, Marciano chose a tactic to wear these tricky fighters (Moore, Charles) down, not with one-punchs. And like we all know, this tactic was right. You can use always the other way too: Liston quit on his stool, was KO´ed by the bum Marshall, in one single round by the at the best mediocre hitting Ali, can you immagine what Marciano would do?

[C. M. Clay II]

Like Marciano_Frazier wrote correctly, Marciano chose a tactic to wear these tricky fighters (Moore, Charles) down, not with one-punchs. And like we all know, this tactic was right. You can use always the other way too: Liston quit on his stool, was KO´ed by the bum Marshall, in one single round by the at the best mediocre hitting Ali, can you immagine what Marciano would do?

I could do the same thing.

Marciano was put on his butt and in serious trouble against cruiserweight Walcott. He was dropped by 175lb Moore. Imagine what Liston would do?:roll:

[groove]

Bad match up for Marciano. Lucky for Marciano that he fought great light heavies and not a true great big punching Heavy like Liston (discounting an old past his best Louis). Look what happened when a great light heavy like Bob Foster fights a true great Heavy like Frazier and Ali. No contest. Same thing would've happened to Moore & Charles against Liston, Frazier or Ali.

[Dempsey1238]

Moore was 188 pounds for the Marciano fight. Walcott 195. Hardly 175 pounds as ClayII claims.

[DocDevil]

Like Marciano_Frazier wrote correctly, Marciano chose a tactic to wear these tricky fighters (Moore, Charles) down, not with one-punchs. And like we all know, this tactic was right. You can use always the other way too: Liston quit on his stool, was KO´ed by the bum Marshall, in one single round by the at the best mediocre hitting Ali, can you immagine what Marciano would do?

It's pretty obvious Rock is one of your favorites,and Sonny Liston is my all time favorite fighter period.Sonny had one on the most perfect physiques for a heavyweight fighter,while Rocky did a helluva job to makeup for his physical shortcomings{height and reach.Rocky was a better champion,unquestionably.Liston the fighter coming up the ranks was better than the champion he became.Yes Liston dishonored himself agaist the great one,and was cleanly kayoed at 38 to 40 years old.We did see what Rocky {couldn't} do at 40.I like the Rock,but one thing we probably have to agree on,Had Liston kept outa jail, got into the rankings earlier,and Rocky kept running his winning streak to 50 plus fights.Sonny Liston woulda been the one to end it,brutally.

[Luigi1985]

I could do the same thing.

Marciano was put on his butt and in serious trouble against cruiserweight Walcott. He was dropped by 175lb Moore. Imagine what Liston would do?:roll:


Being knocked down for a count of 4 against a fighter with a hard one-punch and knocked out against a mediocre hitting fighter is a big difference... ( and about the ATG puncher Moore we don´t even need to start a discussion)

[Duodenum]

If Sonny takes Marciano on inside, Rocky's short arms, lower center of gravity, and superior handpeed (circa Rex Layne), will make things very difficult for Liston. Walcott and Moore were famously able to drop Marciano, but they both had speed Liston lacked, and were able to drop Rocky by retreating. An aged Louis was also able to stop Marciano in his tracks with an early right, but even then, Joe had some handspeed and shortness of punching that Liston never possessed.

Liston has to keep Marciano away with his jab. He's not going to win this with Jimmy Cannon's press clippings. Rocky's intangibles are through the roof. Considering his earlier devastating kayo loss to Johansson, one might expect Eddie Machen to be dispatched by Liston with similar speed, yet Machen proved that Marciano would not have been too small to hang with Liston. Bert Whitehurst also proved an adversary the size and caliber of Marciano could hang with Sonny.

When Sonny was faced with an opponent he couldn't intimidate, or inflict severe distress on, he looked lost. Against Marciano, he might dominate the first several rounds of the contest, but Rocky simply won't stop coming, won't give in, won't wear down. Marciano also secured that crucial 15 round distinction in the first Charles fight. This comes down to mental toughness, and Sonny would blink first against the extremely rough Rock.

At some point late in the championship rounds, Liston, probably far ahead on points but unable to retreat, would abruptly crumble under the unrelenting pressure from Marciano. I believe peak Liston vs peak Marciano would look much like Sonny's final defeat to Leotis Martin (another sub 200 pounder who was able to survive long enough against Liston for Sonny to wear down).

[JimmyShimmy]

What we have is big bad Liston coming in and POW! Little Marciano falls over...he gets up with that non-descript, lethargic expression on his face that has NO SKILL written all over it (too bad Charlie Goldman was really just a hardcore flute player who happen to be good at wrapping hands) and POW! Another big one from the larger, better physique, MORE MODERN (Ali era) demon as he easily smites the confused caveman who thinks an uppercut is a type of fish.

While Rocky was using Pulley's, running up a few hills and eating his pasta, Liston was eating 7 steroided Holyfield’s a day for the SDMTR (Super Duper Modern Training Regime) that has been 100% Homicidal Hank proof tested to defeat any suicidal pre 1960 HW.

[he grant]

Sonny would have busted him up and stopped him in seven or eight ... this is the reason they have weight divisions ...

[joe the great]

Rocky probably would've made Sonny quit after six rounds.

[ChrisPontius]

Sonny would have busted him up and stopped him in seven or eight ... this is the reason they have weight divisions ...

What, because Marciano weighed 15 pounds less than Liston? If Liston beats Marciano then it's because of stylistic advantage rather than size difference.

Marciano is no Patterson who gets knocked down by every punch that lands, plus Marciano has a tremendous amount of (first round) knockouts himself. He stopped more of his opponents than Liston, in fact.

[Holmes' Jab]

Liston inside 6 or 7 rounds. Marciano would fare better than Dempsey.

[round15]

Liston would destroy all three swarmer: Marciano, Frazier, and Tyson. It is a styles issue. Granted, those three are vastly different from Patterson but still look at the stylistic aspect.

I disagree. I do agree with you that styles make fights though. However, Floyd Patterson could have made a better account for himself against Liston, but was already beat in the dressing room well before the fight even started. For a boxer that Ali once called the most skillful he's ever faced, he just crumpled in fear of Sonny Liston.

Liston doesn't possess a huge height advantage over Marciano, Frazier or Tyson. I think Sonny's easiest fight would probably be Marciano because there's not much head movement to his crouch and he could be hit more frequently than Tyson or Frazier. One thing is for sure, Marciano could definitely hurt Liston with his right hand.

Tyson's advantage is hand and footspeed over Liston and his right hand punch is arguably just as strong. Sonny's jab probably hurts Tyson and a straight right would likely have Mike in big trouble early in the fight. Prime Mike Tyson though, would be on him fast from the early rounds and it wouldn't surprise me to see them both trading punches.

With regards to Frazier, I've heard it all before when analyzing a potential matchup with Sonny Liston. Sonny KO's Joe Frazier easy and early, just like George Foreman? I don't think Liston would have lasted 10 rounds with the prime Joe Frazier from 1967 to FOTC. Too much emphasis is placed on Foreman's destruction of a fat, lazy, poorly conditioned Frazier. Liston's jab is nowhere near as quick as Ali's, and Frazier employed much more head movement than Patterson. He made Ali miss jabs and right hands and he'd do the same to Liston. The only way Liston beats Frazier is if and when the ref allows Liston to push, shove and grab Frazier's shoulders like Mercante let Foreman get away with in 1973.

Sonny's game is strongly based on fear. Fear wouldn't work against Marciano, Frazier or Tyson.

[groove]

I cannot think of a champion who would be worse news for Marciano stylisticaly than Liston.
I agree. great post.

[Sweet Pea]

Get fukin real. I'm sure that Sonny would be happy to face someone that he could hit than someone he couldn't who moved quick on foot as in Clay.You just agreed with him.

[groove]

yes thanks i now know :p

[groove]

that's the thinking of Ali - he knew in his head that power means fuk all if you cannot hit the target. his style was out-speeding your opponent without being hit.

[Loewe]

Well, I don´t think Liston knocks out Marciano. Marciano had a very good if not great chin and a very underated defense. Liston could stop Marciano on cuts but he wouldn´t knock him out. Could Liston knock Marciano down? For sure lesser fighter did and I see KDs beeing the only way for Liston to collect enough points to beat the Rock by decision.
I think Liston would dominate the early rounds, even score one, two KDs but Marciano get´s up and becomes stronger as the fight goes on. His punch output gets up and Liston starts to crumble mentally but still is dangerous and game. Marciano clear UD 15, rounds 9 to 6.

Now let´s take a short look of Liston´s chances against the other atg swarmers:
- Dempsey: Clay proved that fast feet can trouble Liston and Dempsey had very fast feet, together with his erratic head movement which would make it very hard for the slow Liston to hit him it spells trouble for Sonny. Dempsey KO4 Liston
- Patterson: we saw what happened.
- Frazier: I don´t think Liston would use his jab to hit Frazier´s head but instead he would work Frazier´s left arm and shoulder with it, making it hurt and tired and so taking away Frazier´s big left hook in the middle to late rounds. If Liston then uses his uppercut constantly when Frazier is moving in, ties him up when he´s close I think even an old Liston has a chance of beating Frazier on points. I can´t see Liston knocking out Frazier at that stage of his career.
But Frazier is the heavy favourite in hereand the most realistic outcome would be a KO/TKO win for Frazier in the mid-rounds. I wrote this in the thread "Liston-Frazier 1969". When both are in their prime I think this gameplan would work out even better and Sonny stops Frazier in the mid-rounds.
- Tyson: Well, Tyson´s style is somewhat similar to Patterson´s with the peek-a-boo defence and fast hands but his head movement is a mix of Dempsey´s and Frazier´s. Not as erratic as Dempsey´s but also not as regular as Frazier´s. And he starts very fast. Both had that auro of a very bad man about them and both had some mental issues. Pick´em fight imo with a slight advantage for Liston - Liston is 2-2 against atgs, Tyson is 2-3.

[Sardu]

If Sonny takes Marciano on inside, Rocky's short arms, lower center of gravity, and superior handpeed (circa Rex Layne), will make things very difficult for Liston. Walcott and Moore were famously able to drop Marciano, but they both had speed Liston lacked, and were able to drop Rocky by retreating. An aged Louis was also able to stop Marciano in his tracks with an early right, but even then, Joe had some handspeed and shortness of punching that Liston never possessed.

Liston has to keep Marciano away with his jab. He's not going to win this with Jimmy Cannon's press clippings. Rocky's intangibles are through the roof. Considering his earlier devastating kayo loss to Johansson, one might expect Eddie Machen to be dispatched by Liston with similar speed, yet Machen proved that Marciano would not have been too small to hang with Liston. Bert Whitehurst also proved an adversary the size and caliber of Marciano could hang with Sonny.

When Sonny was faced with an opponent he couldn't intimidate, or inflict severe distress on, he looked lost. Against Marciano, he might dominate the first several rounds of the contest, but Rocky simply won't stop coming, won't give in, won't wear down. Marciano also secured that crucial 15 round distinction in the first Charles fight. This comes down to mental toughness, and Sonny would blink first against the extremely rough Rock.

At some point late in the championship rounds, Liston, probably far ahead on points but unable to retreat, would abruptly crumble under the unrelenting pressure from Marciano. I believe peak Liston vs peak Marciano would look much like Sonny's final defeat to Leotis Martin (another sub 200 pounder who was able to survive long enough against Liston for Sonny to wear down).


I agree with Duodenum... Marciano by 9th round kayo.

[leverage]

Liston trounces the "brockton block buster" inside of 5.

[turpinr]

marciano would knock the rock out in 2 with a few knock-downs.
marciano's big heart wouldn't be enough against a 210lb wrecking ball with fists as big as steam hammers.
the fact that rocky's reach is 16" shorter than charles sonny's wouldn't help him either.
its a mis-match and rocky would struggle to get past sonny's jab.
there'd be blood and snot everywhere and only the snot would belong to sonny

[he grant]

Chris, Rocky was between 25 - 30 pounds lighter than Liston, not 10 pounds. I'd be more concerned about the reach because if Sonny keeps him outside with the jab and that huge reach advantage he would cut him up pretty good pretty early. It's very hard to fight with blood in your eyes.

While I favor Liston I do feel Rocky would be a very live underdog in this match up. If Rocky could get inside by keeping low and avoid early cuts and land a few early it could be a different fight. Rocky definately has the power to hurt anyone and the longer it went the better Rocky's shot. Again I stress cuts are the think that concern me most.

[PetethePrince]

I cannot think of a champion who would be worse news for Marciano stylisticaly than Liston.

Foreman or Tyson?

At least in my opinion.

[PetethePrince]

Hey Luigi.

I tell you what, I think i'm the only guy on the first three pages of this thread to speak up for Rocky's chances. But I still had to predict a Liston win. Liston spent most of his career working out how to get people to come to him, and this guy here wouldn't be hard to find (Rocky's a people's fighter for sure). Liston is going to bowl Rocky over at some stage - he got dropped by lesser punchers, even as champ - and when - and I do say when, he would beat the count - he'd have a proper heavyweight finisher right after him.

You know?

Rocky has been on the canvas less than 99% of most fighters. I see knockdowns in this one. But if it didn't happened, it wouldn't surprise me. Walcott and Moore were quite more crafty, cunning, and precise punchers, albeit they didn't hit in the league of a Sonny Liston in terms of power.

But that's the type of power Marciano would expect. It would be there for him to see and know, and he's willing to go down that dark road. Hey, he might get dropped. But no way Liston KO's him. Marciano toughness, determination, chin, and defensive ability will keep him weathering the storm and evading some of Liston's blows. I'll write up my piece on the matchup. But your implication about the Marciano knockdowns are a bit misleading. It's like me claiming that because Martin KOed Liston, so would Rocky. Or since Marshall broke his jaw, Marciano would do the same. There's more to it...

[PetethePrince]

If Sonny takes Marciano on inside, Rocky's short arms, lower center of gravity, and superior handpeed (circa Rex Layne), will make things very difficult for Liston. Walcott and Moore were famously able to drop Marciano, but they both had speed Liston lacked, and were able to drop Rocky by retreating. An aged Louis was also able to stop Marciano in his tracks with an early right, but even then, Joe had some handspeed and shortness of punching that Liston never possessed.

Liston has to keep Marciano away with his jab. He's not going to win this with Jimmy Cannon's press clippings. Rocky's intangibles are through the roof. Considering his earlier devastating kayo loss to Johansson, one might expect Eddie Machen to be dispatched by Liston with similar speed, yet Machen proved that Marciano would not have been too small to hang with Liston. Bert Whitehurst also proved an adversary the size and caliber of Marciano could hang with Sonny.

When Sonny was faced with an opponent he couldn't intimidate, or inflict severe distress on, he looked lost. Against Marciano, he might dominate the first several rounds of the contest, but Rocky simply won't stop coming, won't give in, won't wear down. Marciano also secured that crucial 15 round distinction in the first Charles fight. This comes down to mental toughness, and Sonny would blink first against the extremely rough Rock.

At some point late in the championship rounds, Liston, probably far ahead on points but unable to retreat, would abruptly crumble under the unrelenting pressure from Marciano. I believe peak Liston vs peak Marciano would look much like Sonny's final defeat to Leotis Martin (another sub 200 pounder who was able to survive long enough against Liston for Sonny to wear down).

Bravo for your honesty and gusto! :happy

[junior-soprano]

can't believe that some people, who normally have very intelligent threads outhere, really see marciano winning over liston.
what is/are the things that marciano have over liston ? stamina and that's all. don't say liston has no heart. the man boxed with a broken jaw. that is tough (i broke mine twice so i know what i am talking about). al other aspects of boxing liston has the upper hand. a longer reach, more power, better ring generalship. a better chin. much more accuracy in his punches. marciano is overrated. if you see him fight look how much of his punches miss his opponents.
this one wouldn't go past the 8th round. or rocky gets KO'd or the ref stops the fight.

[PetethePrince]

I disagree. I do agree with you that styles make fights though. However, Floyd Patterson could have made a better account for himself against Liston, but was already beat in the dressing room well before the fight even started. For a boxer that Ali once called the most skillful he's ever faced, he just crumpled in fear of Sonny Liston.

Liston doesn't possess a huge height advantage over Marciano, Frazier or Tyson. I think Sonny's easiest fight would probably be Marciano because there's not much head movement to his crouch and he could be hit more frequently than Tyson or Frazier. One thing is for sure, Marciano could definitely hurt Liston with his right hand.

Tyson's advantage is hand and footspeed over Liston and his right hand punch is arguably just as strong. Sonny's jab probably hurts Tyson and a straight right would likely have Mike in big trouble early in the fight. Prime Mike Tyson though, would be on him fast from the early rounds and it wouldn't surprise me to see them both trading punches.

With regards to Frazier, I've heard it all before when analyzing a potential matchup with Sonny Liston. Sonny KO's Joe Frazier easy and early, just like George Foreman? I don't think Liston would have lasted 10 rounds with the prime Joe Frazier from 1967 to FOTC. Too much emphasis is placed on Foreman's destruction of a fat, lazy, poorly conditioned Frazier. Liston's jab is nowhere near as quick as Ali's, and Frazier employed much more head movement than Patterson. He made Ali miss jabs and right hands and he'd do the same to Liston. The only way Liston beats Frazier is if and when the ref allows Liston to push, shove and grab Frazier's shoulders like Mercante let Foreman get away with in 1973.

Sonny's game is strongly based on fear. Fear wouldn't work against Marciano, Frazier or Tyson.

:lol:

You'll never admit that Frazier would be Sonny's easiest opponent out of those fighters. That's what I believe. But you'll just write off the Rock and praise Frazier. Rock doesn't have the movement or defense. It's nonsense. In fact, his low rolling crouch would be better fit. He'd get UNDER the jab of Liston (A thing short fighters should do), and roll to counter. Plus his awkwardness and punching out of all angles and superior durability, stamina, and two-fisted power make it seem obvious to me that he's a better matchup. Frazier head-movement was good but repetitive, and Liston's jab would eat through him more often then it would for a lower target. Frazier weighs more, but is he really stronger? Does he hit harder? Is he going to out-box Liston. It won't be pretty, but I favor Rocky's style over Liston for the reasons I mentioned.

But I won't go off-topic as I have to make my post on this fight for Marciano vs Liston. Of course, you couldn't just enter a thread and answer the question with bringing up Frazier or responding to a poster that talked about how swarmers will lose to him. Okay, maybe just maybe I would have done the same thing. I'd like to think I show a bit more reserve, though.

[junior-soprano]

If Sonny takes Marciano on inside, Rocky's short arms, lower center of gravity, and superior handpeed (circa Rex Layne), will make things very difficult for Liston. Walcott and Moore were famously able to drop Marciano, but they both had speed Liston lacked, and were able to drop Rocky by retreating. An aged Louis was also able to stop Marciano in his tracks with an early right, but even then, Joe had some handspeed and shortness of punching that Liston never possessed.

Liston has to keep Marciano away with his jab. He's not going to win this with Jimmy Cannon's press clippings. Rocky's intangibles are through the roof. Considering his earlier devastating kayo loss to Johansson, one might expect Eddie Machen to be dispatched by Liston with similar speed, yet Machen proved that Marciano would not have been too small to hang with Liston. Bert Whitehurst also proved an adversary the size and caliber of Marciano could hang with Sonny.

When Sonny was faced with an opponent he couldn't intimidate, or inflict severe distress on, he looked lost. Against Marciano, he might dominate the first several rounds of the contest, but Rocky simply won't stop coming, won't give in, won't wear down. Marciano also secured that crucial 15 round distinction in the first Charles fight. This comes down to mental toughness, and Sonny would blink first against the extremely rough Rock.

At some point late in the championship rounds, Liston, probably far ahead on points but unable to retreat, would abruptly crumble under the unrelenting pressure from Marciano. I believe peak Liston vs peak Marciano would look much like Sonny's final defeat to Leotis Martin (another sub 200 pounder who was able to survive long enough against Liston for Sonny to wear down).


when liston fought leotis martin he was so way way past his prime (almost 40 years old) how can you bring that fight up. where talking about a prime rocky and a prime sonny

[PetethePrince]

Well, as to no surprise I suppose. But in this matchup I predict a Rocky win. I predict a win, and I won't predict how he wins.

I think Rocky's low center of gravity and crouch keep him from getting hit with Liston's jab. I think he gets low and inside and wins the fight in the trenches in inside quarters. Liston got the 84 inch reach, and Marciano has the T-Rex Arms. Marciano finds his way inside I think at some point and his low center of gravity and short reach have him throwing bombs. Liston power becomes smother, and he can't get off as much or as often.

My main reasoning for picking Rocky is I think that Liston won't KO him. I don't think he can, actually. A TKO would be possible, but I don't see that happening. Cuts are a concern, but not as much as some might suggest. Marciano was never in any significant danger because of cuts from punches. That's right, only an elbow almost cost his title. There will be blood... I'm sure both men would be bleeding.

I give Liston the first few rounds. Liston starts of great, and Marciano isn't the best starter. Marciano does have an ever so slightly edge in hand-speed but that's completely nullified on the outside by the 15+ inch reach advantage by Liston. Liston's jab is grazing Rocky and finding its mark enough. Liston keeps Rocky at bay for the first 3 rounds. In fact, sweeping the opener. Tide starts turning though. I think from rounds 3-9, Rocky will up at least half of them.

Now, Liston's biggest and best arsenal on offensive is his jab, and overhand right. His uppercut, is also a thing of beauty. Surprisingly, I think Liston's head-movement bothers Rocky on the early stages. And that bothering happens on the rare times Rocky finds himself inside. I don't think much about Liston's overhand right in this one. Rocky's so low, shorter, that it isn't viable. It won't be in play for this one. Liston will rely heavily on the jab, and mix it up with a straight right hand and trying the uppercut.

Liston's best bet is to use that uppercut with Rocky coming in. Rocky is going to forward, but cautiously. He won't walk in like he did against Moore. Liston's severe power is known. Marciano's durability and chin at his peak was better than in his last fight, anyway. This even gets underrated now.

For Liston to win he needs to fight off the backfoot for as long as he can. He needs to bang and break Rocky down. Unfortunately, Liston fights great off the back foot. Better than most Heavyweight sluggers, which is why he is considered such a versatile force. If he busts up Rocky, I can see a late TKO from cuts or ref stoppage. This gameplan is to back up, jab, and try duping Marciano into exchanging for long-distances.

In my honest opinion, though. I think Liston stops retreating around the 3rd or 4th round. Liston doesn't fight off the back fight for extended periods. He met Williams face to face and eventually broke him down and pushed him backwards. I think his ego, manhood, and belief in his power/jab will have him start standing toe to toe with Rocky. Bad move. From this point, Rocky's body-work and punching power take a toll. Both mean are bloodied, but the final stages see Rocky cleaning up round 9-12 to even up the fight. The Championship rounds see a broken down mentally Liston. Liston quits on his stool. Marciano wins. Both fighters have fought a hellacious war. Both fighters aren't the same.


I rather have the 52-53 version of Marciano in this matchup than the latter version we see against Charles/Moore. I think the more calculated Marciano would have the better chance. This Marciano is smarter (Due to being more calculated), and more defensive, and harder to hit than it appears. This version is more apt to losing early rounds and being out-pointed. No fear, this won't happen against Liston. Only cutey fighters like Walcott will pose this problem. I feel that guys that stand and trade with Marciano are tailor made for him. The Charles, Walcott's are the ones that move away and try to use their boxing ability and craftiness that are troubling for Rocky. Guys that go mano o mano most likely lose. Obviously there are different circumstances for everything, though.

I think the low center, low target, awkwardness, and punching from all angles can beffudle Liston. Liston dealing with adversity, whether it be a mental fortitude issue or an issue on how to adapt. Liston just didn't like it when he didn't have you in the palm of his hands. At some point he is trouble, mentally, physically, strategically, and even stylistically. He won't have the answer. The power of Marciano would be a power that he has never been hit with before (At this point. A peak Liston hasn't sparred with Foreman). The tenacity...

Rocco Francis Marchegiano will find his mark against Liston. He may get dropped, he may even drop Liston. But Liston doesn't have the fortitude or will to win this kind of a scrap up. In my mind, at one point or another I think he just says... fuck it and quits.

I can be honest though. In this matchup I'm picking with my mind and emotions. But not just my emotions.

[Silver]

liston wins by late ko

[turpinr]

liston wins by late koyes,late in round 2

[choklab]

I just dont think liston paid his dues as a top10 ATG to be mentioned in the same breath as marciano. head to head we have to consider what they both did in life. rock did evrything posible then retired, having beat all time greats in some style. giving away weight 27 times and reach 49 times.
By comparison Liston was impresive against guys he had evry posible advantage over (only KOd 1 guy heavier then he was) and had bad shoulders or a brocken jaw when sombody stood up to him. but he fought 1 ATG and lost badly both times. he never beat 1 undefeted opponent or knocked out a single guy who was not already a KO victim. Great fighters win great fights, they get off the floor to win. They can give and take it and give some more.
However, Styles make fights. Liston with rocks head on his shoulders wins easy against the marciano wearing listons head. Listons huge arms and power at all ranges would be nightmarish for rocky. However there is proof rocky was never KOd so why here? lesser guys no bigger than rock lasted the distance with sonny.
it wouldnt be easy for rock but he had beter fitness, Hit as hard, could take it and was stronger than the many sub 200lb guys who troubled liston.
Rock by retirement stoppage.

[janitor]

yes,late in round 2

Both fighters are getting sold short in this thread.

You are one of the worse examples of sombody selling Marciano short.

[Bummy Davis]

Well, as to no surprise I suppose. But in this matchup I predict a Rocky win. I predict a win, and I won't predict how he wins.

I think Rocky's low center of gravity and crouch keep him from getting hit with Liston's jab. I think he gets low and inside and wins the fight in the trenches in inside quarters. Liston got the 84 inch reach, and Marciano has the T-Rex Arms. Marciano finds his way inside I think at some point and his low center of gravity and short reach have him throwing bombs. Liston power becomes smother, and he can't get off as much or as often.

My main reasoning for picking Rocky is I think that Liston won't KO him. I don't think he can, actually. A TKO would be possible, but I don't see that happening. Cuts are a concern, but not as much as some might suggest. Marciano was never in any significant danger because of cuts from punches. That's right, only an elbow almost cost his title. There will be blood... I'm sure both men would be bleeding.

I give Liston the first few rounds. Liston starts of great, and Marciano isn't the best starter. Marciano does have an ever so slightly edge in hand-speed but that's completely nullified on the outside by the 15+ inch reach advantage by Liston. Liston's jab is grazing Rocky and finding its mark enough. Liston keeps Rocky at bay for the first 3 rounds. In fact, sweeping the opener. Tide starts turning though. I think from rounds 3-9, Rocky will up at least half of them.

Now, Liston's biggest and best arsenal on offensive is his jab, and overhand right. His uppercut, is also a thing of beauty. Surprisingly, I think Liston's head-movement bothers Rocky on the early stages. And that bothering happens on the rare times Rocky finds himself inside. I don't think much about Liston's overhand right in this one. Rocky's so low, shorter, that it isn't viable. It won't be in play for this one. Liston will rely heavily on the jab, and mix it up with a straight right hand and trying the uppercut.

Liston's best bet is to use that uppercut with Rocky coming in. Rocky is going to forward, but cautiously. He won't walk in like he did against Moore. Liston's severe power is known. Marciano's durability and chin at his peak was better than in his last fight, anyway. This even gets underrated now.

For Liston to win he needs to fight off the backfoot for as long as he can. He needs to bang and break Rocky down. Unfortunately, Liston fights great off the back foot. Better than most Heavyweight sluggers, which is why he is considered such a versatile force. If he busts up Rocky, I can see a late TKO from cuts or ref stoppage. This gameplan is to back up, jab, and try duping Marciano into exchanging for long-distances.

In my honest opinion, though. I think Liston stops retreating around the 3rd or 4th round. Liston doesn't fight off the back fight for extended periods. He met Williams face to face and eventually broke him down and pushed him backwards. I think his ego, manhood, and belief in his power/jab will have him start standing toe to toe with Rocky. Bad move. From this point, Rocky's body-work and punching power take a toll. Both mean are bloodied, but the final stages see Rocky cleaning up round 9-12 to even up the fight. The Championship rounds see a broken down mentally Liston. Liston quits on his stool. Marciano wins. Both fighters have fought a hellacious war. Both fighters aren't the same.


I rather have the 52-53 version of Marciano in this matchup than the latter version we see against Charles/Moore. I think the more calculated Marciano would have the better chance. This Marciano is smarter (Due to being more calculated), and more defensive, and harder to hit than it appears. This version is more apt to losing early rounds and being out-pointed. No fear, this won't happen against Liston. Only cutey fighters like Walcott will pose this problem. I feel that guys that stand and trade with Marciano are tailor made for him. The Charles, Walcott's are the ones that move away and try to use their boxing ability and craftiness that are troubling for Rocky. Guys that go mano o mano most likely lose. Obviously there are different circumstances for everything, though.

I think the low center, low target, awkwardness, and punching from all angles can beffudle Liston. Liston dealing with adversity, whether it be a mental fortitude issue or an issue on how to adapt. Liston just didn't like it when he didn't have you in the palm of his hands. At some point he is trouble, mentally, physically, strategically, and even stylistically. He won't have the answer. The power of Marciano would be a power that he has never been hit with before (At this point. A peak Liston hasn't sparred with Foreman). The tenacity...

Rocco Francis Marchegiano will find his mark against Liston. He may get dropped, he may even drop Liston. But Liston doesn't have the fortitude or will to win this kind of a scrap up. In my mind, at one point or another I think he just says... fuck it and quits.

I can be honest though. In this matchup I'm picking with my mind and emotions. But not just my emotions.

I too think R.M. prevails in a rugged go

[turpinr]

Both fighters are getting sold short in this thread.

You are one of the worse examples of sombody selling Marciano short.i'm not too bothered.i don't hate or even dis-like rocky, i just think liston would easily beat him.foreman easier still.

[kidargentine]

Liston by Decision...