Boxing 88 : Tyson - Dempsey

[JohnThomas1]

Dempsey and Tyson might have displayed a mutual respect. Or gone to unprecedented lengths to prove their toughness. Dempsey shelves the razor to look meaner,Tyson turns off the water in his shower to smell meaner. The possibilities are a publicists dream.

These two would leave finesse at the ballet. Dempsey knew only one way, but his atempts to bully Tyson would fail. Dempsey's 6 title challengers weighed an average of 190 pounds. Tyson, bigger, stronger and just as quick as his foe, would gladly ram heads in ring center. Punch for punch it would be no contest.

Attempting to smother Tyson with a blizzard of blows, Dempsey would run blindly into a house wrecking hook. Boom! There would be three more knockdowns in round 1. (Dempsey's manager Doc Kearn, would have insisted on waiving the 3 KD rule.) Add two more crash landings in round 2 and you have a second round Tyson victory.

"I forgot to duck - about 27 different times," Dempsey would say at the postfight press conference. "And i forgot to hit him".

That's all right Jack. Our guess is Babe Ruth wouldn't have hit Roger Clemens, either.

[dpw417]

Dempsey and Tyson might have displayed a mutual respect. Or gone to unprecedented lengths to prove their toughness. Dempsey shelves the razor to look meaner,Tyson turns off the water in his shower to smell meaner. The possibilities are a publicists dream.

These two would leave finesse at the ballet. Dempsey knew only one way, but his atempts to bully Tyson would fail. Dempsey's 6 title challengers weighed an average of 190 pounds. Tyson, bigger, stronger and just as quick as his foe, would gladly ram heads in ring center. Punch for punch it would be no contest.

Attempting to smother Tyson with a blizzard of blows, Dempsey would run blindly into a house wrecking hook. Boom! There would be three more knockdowns in round 1. (Dempsey's manager Doc Kearn, would have insisted on waiving the 3 KD rule.) Add two more crash landings in round 2 and you have a second round Tyson victory.

"I forgot to duck - about 27 different times," Dempsey would say at the postfight press conference. "And i forgot to hit him".

That's all right Jack. Our guess is Babe Ruth wouldn't have hit Roger Clemens, either.
I respect Dempsey as one of boxing's immortals...but that pretty much sums up a fight between him and Tyson at that time....:good

[Longhhorn71]

Dempsey and Tyson might have displayed a mutual respect. Or gone to unprecedented lengths to prove their toughness. Dempsey shelves the razor to look meaner,Tyson turns off the water in his shower to smell meaner. The possibilities are a publicists dream.

These two would leave finesse at the ballet. Dempsey knew only one way, but his atempts to bully Tyson would fail. Dempsey's 6 title challengers weighed an average of 190 pounds. Tyson, bigger, stronger and just as quick as his foe, would gladly ram heads in ring center. Punch for punch it would be no contest.

Attempting to smother Tyson with a blizzard of blows, Dempsey would run blindly into a house wrecking hook. Boom! There would be three more knockdowns in round 1. (Dempsey's manager Doc Kearn, would have insisted on waiving the 3 KD rule.) Add two more crash landings in round 2 and you have a second round Tyson victory.

"I forgot to duck - about 27 different times," Dempsey would say at the postfight press conference. "And i forgot to hit him".

That's all right Jack. Our guess is Babe Ruth wouldn't have hit Roger Clemens, either.

JT:

You can say wild things about Dempsey, but please
not about "The Babe".

:lol:

[JohnThomas1]

JT:

You can say wild things about Dempsey, but please
not about "The Babe".

:lol:

Twasn't "i" that said any of it :D

[BUDW]

Dempsey pounds over rated Tyson into dream land,Tyson couldnt take Holyfields pressure just think what jack would do to him

[BUDW]

Dempsey and Tyson might have displayed a mutual respect. Or gone to unprecedented lengths to prove their toughness. Dempsey shelves the razor to look meaner,Tyson turns off the water in his shower to smell meaner. The possibilities are a publicists dream.

These two would leave finesse at the ballet. Dempsey knew only one way, but his atempts to bully Tyson would fail. Dempsey's 6 title challengers weighed an average of 190 pounds. Tyson, bigger, stronger and just as quick as his foe, would gladly ram heads in ring center. Punch for punch it would be no contest.

Attempting to smother Tyson with a blizzard of blows, Dempsey would run blindly into a house wrecking hook. Boom! There would be three more knockdowns in round 1. (Dempsey's manager Doc Kearn, would have insisted on waiving the 3 KD rule.) Add two more crash landings in round 2 and you have a second round Tyson victory.

"I forgot to duck - about 27 different times," Dempsey would say at the postfight press conference. "And i forgot to hit him".

That's all right Jack. Our guess is Babe Ruth wouldn't have hit Roger Clemens, either.

Babe takes roger out of the park, when he was on roids or before.

[radianttwilight]

Tyson KO1 Dempsey. Seriously, this is about as bad a mismatch as it gets for Jack.

I have no doubts that Tyson would've gone undefeated against most pre-Patterson lineal champions' competition.

[Amsterdam]

Dempsey and Tyson might have displayed a mutual respect. Or gone to unprecedented lengths to prove their toughness. Dempsey shelves the razor to look meaner,Tyson turns off the water in his shower to smell meaner. The possibilities are a publicists dream.

These two would leave finesse at the ballet. Dempsey knew only one way, but his atempts to bully Tyson would fail. Dempsey's 6 title challengers weighed an average of 190 pounds. Tyson, bigger, stronger and just as quick as his foe, would gladly ram heads in ring center. Punch for punch it would be no contest.

Attempting to smother Tyson with a blizzard of blows, Dempsey would run blindly into a house wrecking hook. Boom! There would be three more knockdowns in round 1. (Dempsey's manager Doc Kearn, would have insisted on waiving the 3 KD rule.) Add two more crash landings in round 2 and you have a second round Tyson victory.

"I forgot to duck - about 27 different times," Dempsey would say at the postfight press conference. "And i forgot to hit him".

That's all right Jack. Our guess is Babe Ruth wouldn't have hit Roger Clemens, either.

You're on the right track, only he'd be KTFO cold in about 30 seconds, not two rounds mate.

Good try though, I appreciate a measure of realism here.:good

[Amsterdam]

Tyson KO1 Dempsey. Seriously, this is about as bad a mismatch as it gets for Jack.

I have no doubts that Tyson would've gone undefeated against most pre-Patterson lineal champions' competition.

It's likely he'd have gone undefeated for a long time against most pre-80's champion's competition. I can't find any reasons to pick Ali against Tyson, and seeing that Ali was the best of the bunch.

Foreman has a good style clash, but is too slow and too hittable.

Liston doesn't have what it takes, realistically, to beat Tyson.

The rest?:yep

Please.

[Sonny's jab]

JohnThomas, who wrote that crap?

[crippet]

Imagine using Demspeys rules and Tyson is able to stand over a dropped opponent.
Tyson KO within a minute

[Jack Dempsey]

I love Dempsey as you can imagine, but I can't see him ever beating Tyson

[JohnThomas1]

I love Dempsey as you can imagine, but I can't see him ever beating Tyson

There's nothing better than a big fan with a dose of reality

:good

[mr. magoo]

Babe takes roger out of the park, when he was on roids or before.

I wonder how many 100+ MPH balls the Babe ever nailed.

[Sonny's jab]

Why is it a "dose of reality" ?

It's pure FANTASY.

I take it this was written in 1988.

As of 2008, Dempsey was obviously a far better FIGHTER than Tyson. I'd favour him in a quick brutal two-sided fight.

The REALITY is that Tyson never showed the toughness required to make him favourite over Dempsey.

The article talks about Dempsey walking into a "house wrecking hook" but says nothing about what Tyson might walk in to !
And Tyson never got off the deck to win a fight !

It's a big pile of shit, or just one man's opinion, surprising well-received and lapped up by some people here who I really thought might know better. It's certainly not "reality", since Dempsey was an old man before Tyson was even born, they never fought, it's pure speculation. Oh, I guess in they'd been matched in 1980, a 14 year-old Tyson would have literally KILLED any 85 year-old Dempsey. But I hear he was more inclined to mug grandMOTHERS rather than grandpas at the time.

[mr. magoo]

Why is it a "dose of reality" ?

It's pure FANTASY.

I take it this was written in 1988.

As of 2008, Dempsey was obviously a far more FIGHTER than Tyson. I'd favour him in a quick brutal two-sided fight.

The REALITY is that Tyson never showed the toughness required to make him favourite over Dempsey.

The article talks about Dempsey walking into a "house wrecking hook" but says nothing about what Tyson might walk in to !
And Tyson never got off the deck to win a fight !

It's a big pile of shit, or just one man's opinion, surprising well-received and lapped up by some people here who I really thought might know better. It's certainly not "reality", since Dempsey was an old man before Tyson was even born, then never fought, it's pure speculation. Oh, I guess in they'd been matched in 1980, a 14 year-old Tyson would have literally KILLED any 85 year-old Dempsey. But I hear he was more inclined to mug grandMOTHERS rather than grandpas at the time.

Indeed,

Tyson never proved that he had enough decency to allow concerned ringsiders to help him back into the ring after being knocked out of it by a man of tremendous skill like Luis Firpo. He was also a heartless sole, who never took petty by giving a sick, financially struggling man who was 3-3-1 in his last 7 bouts a title shot. He also would have done himself well to have a few non-title bouts against some guys who were comparable to that of the great Jim Darcy, as this would have clearly helped his public relations. Everett Martin would have done quite nicely. Frankly I'm not sure why he fought men like Spinks, Tucker, Williams, Biggs and Bruno, when there were better men like Cooney, Cobb, Crabtree, Zouski, and Duplooey. Finally, I think the reason Tyson lost his title was because the constant activity and pressures of fighting on a regular basis finally got to him. Had he taken a few years off, and sat on the title to rest and think things over, he well may have kept the belt, or better yet, why defend it at all?

[Sonny's jab]

Indeed,

Tyson never proved that he had enough decency to allow concerned ringsiders to help him back into the ring after being knocked out of it by a man of tremendous skill like Luis Firpo.

Imagine the crying and whining Tyson would have done to the referee if an opponent had pushed him through the ring ropes. That scared little boy comes out. Cover your ears ringsiders, he's about to bite !

He probably would have been fighting to be left outside the ring, pulling that crying baby face of his. Meanwhile, Don King and Jose Sulaiman would be disqualifying the opponent for some reason or other.

He was also a heartless sole, who never took petty by giving a sick, financially struggling man who was 3-3-1 in his last 7 bouts a title shot.

Well, he gave plenty of bums bigger paydays than they would have got in title shots. Ever heard of Peter McNeeley ?

He also would have done himself well to have a few non-title bouts against some guys who were comparable to that of the great Jim Darcy, as this would have clearly helped his public relations. Everett Martin would have done quite nicely.


Dempsey's bout with Jim Darcy has escaped notice of almost everyone who ever wrote about him. Never knew about it before boxrec, it was an exhibition, a bit like Tyson's summer '87 exhibition with Tillis, which has gone unnoticed too. So much for PR.


Frankly I think it was also foolish of him to allow fighters of all different ethnic or racial backgrounds to get shots at his belt, when no one would have held it against him for fighting only one select group of individuals.


Last time I checked Tyson defended his "titles" almost exclusively against black Americans. Oh, he did fight Frank Bruno, a black Brit.
But Dempsey fought TWO non-Americans, one from France, one from Argentina.

I have to give credit to Tyson for finally losing to a big docile IRISH OAF though. That's the height of race relations. If Tyson ever comes back I expect him to lose to a woman. That might win him some friends. Everyone gets a chance to beat up little Mikey !


Finally, I think the reason Tyson lost his title was because the constant activity and pressures of fighting on a regular basis finally got to him. Had he taken a few years off, and sat on the title to rest and think things over, he well may have kept the belt, or better yet, why defend it at all


Even going by the record books, Dempsey had more fights in a shorter career than Tyson had, and probably more that haven't been uncovered.

[UpWithEvil]

I wonder how many 100+ MPH balls the Babe ever nailed.

Hard to say. Bob Feller, the legendary fireballer and American war hero, was timed at 98.7 MPH using a photoelectric array (a very invasive method of timing a moving object using a series of connected cameras - more accurate than a radar gun in most instances, but impossible to do during an actual game since the camera array must be on the field) designed by the Army Ordinance Department in 1946.

Feller's career began in 1936, the year after Ruth retired, so they never faced each other. However, umpires and other players did, of course, span the careers of both. The general consensus was that Feller threw slightly harder than left-handed ace Lefty Grove, who himself was considered to throw slightly slower than legendary Hall of Famer Walter Johnson (who held the career strikeout record for almost 70 years before Nolan Ryan broke it).

In his book "The Physics of Baseball", Robert Adair points to a published 1914 record of Walter Johnson's best fastball being timed at 99.7 MPH using a ballistic pendulum, a method of timing that I consider slightly inferior to a radar gun. In a 1917 test while wearing street clothes and throwing off flat ground (rather than a pitching mound), Johnson was timed at 134 feet-per-second, or 91 MPH.

So I think it is fair to say that during his legendary career, The Babe faced his share of hard-throwers. However, I would also note that raw velocity alone is nowhere near as important as control and movement of the pitch. Consider that the greatest pitchers of the modern era - Roger Clemens, Pedro Martinez, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Greg Maddux, Bert Blyleven, etc., were *never* timed at 100MPH on a single pitch, despite the proliferation of radar guns.

[Sonny's jab]

Magoo,
I notice you've added a sentence about "Cooney, Zouski, Crabtree, Duplooy" in an edit of your post. Perhaps to offset your ridiculous assertion that Tyson gave title shots to a ethnically and racially diverse group of challengers ?

[Sonny's jab]

Oh, you removed your most ridiculous statement as well.

Better luck next time.

:good

[couch13]

Indeed,

Tyson never proved that he had enough decency to allow concerned ringsiders to help him back into the ring after being knocked out of it by a man of tremendous skill like Luis Firpo. He was also a heartless sole, who never took petty by giving a sick, financially struggling man who was 3-3-1 in his last 7 bouts a title shot. He also would have done himself well to have a few non-title bouts against some guys who were comparable to that of the great Jim Darcy, as this would have clearly helped his public relations. Everett Martin would have done quite nicely. Frankly I'm not sure why he fought men like Spinks, Tucker, Williams, Biggs and Bruno, when there were better men like Cooney, Cobb, Crabtree, Zouski, and Duplooey. Finally, I think the reason Tyson lost his title was because the constant activity and pressures of fighting on a regular basis finally got to him. Had he taken a few years off, and sat on the title to rest and think things over, he well may have kept the belt, or better yet, why defend it at all?

Mr. Magoo, as much as I like your avatar, you sir are being ridiculus. Sonny's Jab has done an excellent rebuttal of this post, but there is one thing I'd like to add.

Dempsey did sign to fight Harry Wills in 1925 [Only registered and activated users can see links]

[couch13]

I posted this before I noticed that he had removed the ethnic comment so its not totally relevant anymore.

[TBooze]

I remember something similar done around the same time in The Ring; Tyson against the greats: With everyone at their best, and weighing 215lbs.

Pretty sure Demsey beat Tyson off the floor in four.

Tyson went something like 7-5 over the 12 greats named.

Louis, Ali, Holmes and Johnson also went over him I believe.

[mr. magoo]

:good
Sonny's jab]Imagine the crying and whining Tyson would have done to the referee if an opponent had pushed him through the ring ropes. That scared little boy comes out. Cover your ears ringsiders, he's about to bite !


Naaa. He'd be more likely to knock out the people helping him back in rather than being concerned about dealing with the incredible force that Firpo would have proven to be.





[QUOTE]
Well, he gave plenty of bums bigger paydays than they would have got in title shots. Ever heard of Peter McNeeley ?


Ever heard of the concept of taking a tune up after a layoff. If the only comparison that you have to make with Dempsey giving TITLE SHOTS to men like Miske, is Tyson's COMEBACK fight with McNeeley, then I'd say you have to go back to the drawing board Sonny.


Dempsey's bout with Jim Darcy has escaped notice of almost everyone who ever wrote about him. Never knew about it before boxrec, it was an exhibition, a bit like Tyson's summer '87 exhibition with Tillis, which has gone unnoticed too. So much for PR.



Indeed, Boxrec has taken a step further and listed this as a title defense, rather than a mere exhibition. Rather generous if you ask me, of course everyone seems to be when it comes to the great Manassa Mauler.


Last time I checked Tyson defended his "titles" almost exclusively against black Americans. Oh, he did fight Frank Bruno, a black Brit.
But Dempsey fought TWO non-Americans, one from France, one from Argentina.


Well, kudos to Dempsey. He successfully managed to not fight the #1 contender of his era, but he of course well made up for it by being a good embasador of his country and giving title shots internationally.


I have to give credit to Tyson for finally losing to a big docile IRISH OAF though. That's the height of race relations. If Tyson ever comes back I expect him to lose to a woman. That might win him some friends. Everyone gets a chance to beat up little Mikey !


Too bad Dempsey never fought past the age of 32, I guess that lightheavyweight was just too much for him:lol:


Even going by the record books, Dempsey had more fights in a shorter career than Tyson had, and probably more that haven't been uncovered.


Yes, I particularly like the claim about him having more 1st round KO's, and agianst men who's reported records are 0-0-0. As for his UNRECORDED outings, I'd sure like to see some of those boxcar hobos in action. Must have been some real scuffles.

[mr. magoo]

=couch13]Mr. Magoo, as much as I like your avatar, you sir are being ridiculus. Sonny's Jab has done an excellent rebuttal of this post, but there is one thing I'd like to add.


He refuted absolutely nothing that I said. One of his so called rebuddles was to compare Dempsey's title defense against Billy Miske to Tyson's tuneup fight with McNeeley. If he can't tell the difference between a world title fight and a comeback bout, then I seriously have to question his ability to rebuddle any argument as it may pertain to boxing.

Dempsey did sign to fight Harry Wills in 1925 [Only registered and activated users can see links]
[/quote]

I was already well aware of this, and believe me, it was a media stunt. Wills was never going to get a shot at Dempsey and thats all there is to it.

[mr. magoo]

Magoo,
I notice you've added a sentence about "Cooney, Zouski, Crabtree, Duplooy" in an edit of your post. Perhaps to offset your ridiculous assertion that Tyson gave title shots to a ethnically and racially diverse group of challengers ?

Had he fought these men, and neglected to face men like Spinks, then his reign would have been no different than Dempsey's.

[Sonny's jab]

Actually, magoo, your response to my original post (on the topic of this thread) was no sort of rebuttal either.
All of it was totally irrelevant to the subject of Dempsey-Tyson match-up, and much of it was just plain wrong.

You want to deflect the subject away from the facts that point towards Dempsey being a better fighter than Tyson.
Dempsey was an all-time great FIGHTER, he never punked out, never cried and whined to the referee, he took it as well as he dished it out.
He was tougher than Tyson. Put two explosive fighters together, and I'd pick the guy with toughness and heart.
Everyone should see that makes sense, but people here seem to fool themselves into thinking the SIZE OF TYSON'S NECK or some other crap would be the deciding factor.

You criticized Dempsey for being "charitable" giving Miske a payday.
Tyson gave a bum like McNeeley a payday, and you excuse it as a "non-title tune-up". But that excuse can only carry so far.

Firstly, Miske was NOT a bum on McNeeley's level. Nor is he comparable to a pure clubfighter like Bobby Crabtree. You'll probably disagree, and insist that Miske was one of the worst fighters ever. Sure, he was a very bad choice for a title fight at that time, I dont excuse that, but he had SOME "pedigree".

Secondly, Dempsey and Ali came off similar layoffs to Tyson and didn't fight bums like McNeeley ! Dempsey lost to Tunney, Ali beat Quarry. But there's absolutely no good excuse for Tyson fighting McNeeley. Then again, he gets credit from some for winning back a "title" against a mediocrity like Bruce Seldon, who went down without being hit.

But these are all peripheral issues.

By all means, CARRY ON with your criticisms of Dempsey. Criticise him for fighting exhibitions, criticize his inactivity, criticize his ducking, or criticize him losing to (the great) Gene Tunney, a "lightheavyweight", and criticize him retiring at 32. It's all laughable stuff, when you're putting Mike Tyson forward as a superior - or possibly even "greater"(!) - fighter.

[janitor]

Some points have to be made.

Dempsey was better technicaly than Tyson as an ofensive fighter all round. He was litteraly the Tyson upgrade.

One historian said that Dempsey was everything Tyson wanted to be but couldnt. That is so true psychologicaly.

Only a fool makes a confident pick in a bout between two fighters like Dempsey and Tyson. The train wreck nature of the fight makes the result more dependent on chance than most stylistic matchups.

This will be brutal ugly and short. If I simply have to put money down it is going on Dempsey. Most details of this match work subtley his way.

[janitor]

I was already well aware of this, and believe me, it was a media stunt. Wills was never going to get a shot at Dempsey and thats all there is to it.

Lets look at the facts here

A. Dempsey advertised for a promotor to arrange a fight between him and Wills. The headline the next day was

"Dempsey disolves the colour bar"

B. Dempsey signed to fight Wills.

C. The New York State athletic comision banned the fight for fear that it would cause race riots.

D. Dempsey again sought a promotor to arrange a match with Wills and found one.

E. The offer was not on the level and Dempseys cheque bounced.

Now by all means criticise Dempseys record on the grounds that he didnt fight Wills but dont acuse him of ducking him.

If anything Dempsey should be praised for trying to do what Jeffries and indeed Johnson would not do at any price. Wills himself always respected that Dempsey had tried to make the fight.

[Mega Lamps]

I'm not so sure Tyson was stronger than Dempsey. He was often times bullied in the clinches and didnt do much there.

[Duodenum]

In Toledo, Dempsey stood up to the same uppercut Jess Willard used to kill Bull Young. Tyson never killed anybody with his. Tyson himself probably has doubts that he could have taken Jack.

Dempsey: "A champion is someone who gets up when he can't."

Tyson: Didn't get up against McBride when he could.

Holyfield was the same size as Dempsey when he became cruiserweight champion, and he certainly proved perfectly capable of playing with the big boys. I have no problem visualizing Dempsey handling Tyson. Jack could be fantastically dangerous when scared or hurt. When it comes to intangibles, Dempsey has all the advantages.

[ChrisPontius]

Holyfield was the same size as Dempsey when he became cruiserweight champion, and he certainly proved perfectly capable of playing with the big boys. I have no problem visualizing Dempsey handling Tyson. Jack could be fantastically dangerous when scared or hurt. When it comes to intangibles, Dempsey has all the advantages.

Funny, i must have missed those moments when a 190lbs Holyfield was beating up heavyweights.


Holyfield had an iron chin and that has carried him in many fights at HW (including the Tyson fight). How many of the 220lbs+ monster punchers did Dempsey prove himself against? Willard never landed much, neither did Fulton. Firpo did and he knocked Dempsey silly.

[JohnThomas1]

In Toledo, Dempsey stood up to the same uppercut Jess Willard used to kill Bull Young. Tyson never killed anybody with his.

I can never see any relevance when people talk of boxers killing people with punches as a means to proclaim their power or effectiveness. It's the luck of the draw, or should i say terrible bad luck of the draw. Mancini killed a Kim, but would you say this means he hits harder than Tyson too? Emile Griffith? I'm sure given a choice boxers will much prefer not to have killed someone in the ring.

Dempsey: "A champion is someone who gets up when he can't."

Tyson: Didn't get up against McBride when he could.

Tyson got up vs Douglas regardless of his shocking condition and whether it was stopped. It took some effort :lol:

And if we are going to go so far outside Tyson's norm we have to include the Towering Inferno that was Jim and a myriad of other woeful performances by dozens of greats at their end.

Holyfield was the same size as Dempsey when he became cruiserweight champion, and he certainly proved perfectly capable of playing with the big boys. I have no problem visualizing Dempsey handling Tyson. Jack could be fantastically dangerous when scared or hurt. When it comes to intangibles, Dempsey has all the advantages.

Holyfield was no-where near the size of Dempsey when fighting Tyson. The big thing is he felt he needed to pack on a substancial amount of extra muscle and size to compete at heavyweight.

Holyfield weighed a solid 218 and 215 vs Tyson, by comparison Dempsey's best days were at about 188. This is a whopping 30 pounds, not so meaningful from the 220's up but very much here. Beating big lumbering oafs from 188 is very different to beating machinations like peak Tyson and co.

[mr. magoo]

Actually, magoo, your response to my original post (on the topic of this thread) was no sort of rebuttal either.
All of it was totally irrelevant to the subject of Dempsey-Tyson match-up, and much of it was just plain wrong.

You want to deflect the subject away from the facts that point towards Dempsey being a better fighter than Tyson.
Dempsey was an all-time great FIGHTER, he never punked out, never cried and whined to the referee, he took it as well as he dished it out.
He was tougher than Tyson. Put two explosive fighters together, and I'd pick the guy with toughness and heart.
Everyone should see that makes sense, but people here seem to fool themselves into thinking the SIZE OF TYSON'S NECK or some other crap would be the deciding factor.

You criticized Dempsey for being "charitable" giving Miske a payday.
Tyson gave a bum like McNeeley a payday, and you excuse it as a "non-title tune-up". But that excuse can only carry so far.

Firstly, Miske was NOT a bum on McNeeley's level. Nor is he comparable to a pure clubfighter like Bobby Crabtree. You'll probably disagree, and insist that Miske was one of the worst fighters ever. Sure, he was a very bad choice for a title fight at that time, I dont excuse that, but he had SOME "pedigree".

Secondly, Dempsey and Ali came off similar layoffs to Tyson and didn't fight bums like McNeeley ! Dempsey lost to Tunney, Ali beat Quarry. But there's absolutely no good excuse for Tyson fighting McNeeley. Then again, he gets credit from some for winning back a "title" against a mediocrity like Bruce Seldon, who went down without being hit.

But these are all peripheral issues.

By all means, CARRY ON with your criticisms of Dempsey. Criticise him for fighting exhibitions, criticize his inactivity, criticize his ducking, or criticize him losing to (the great) Gene Tunney, a "lightheavyweight", and criticize him retiring at 32. It's all laughable stuff, when you're putting Mike Tyson forward as a superior - or possibly even "greater"(!) - fighter.

I'm not really criticizing Dempsey here. My post was only intendend to pull your chains a bit Sonny, and it apparently worked like a charm. I will say however that the whole thing about McNeeley is a joke. Frankly if you think that Tyson givng him a fight is bad after 4 years of inactivity, is as bad as Dempsey fighting MIske for the title, then lets just have a beer and call it quits, because I don't know how else to refute this argument.

I just got through celebrating my daughter's 1st birthday, and this is how I feel :cheers

Of all the posters on ESB Sonny, you're the one who I would most want to buy a beer at a pub. You're the biggest pain in my arse, but I love ya big boy.....:good

You're my man Sonny.....I LOVE YOU..... And I don't give a crap about who would win between Tyson and Dempsey. You pick and I'll follow.......

[My dinner with Conteh]

Funny, i must have missed those moments when a 190lbs Holyfield was beating up heavyweights.



I think he'd have done better at heavyweight if he'd have come in even lighter than 190. :yep

[Jack Dempsey]

There's nothing better than a big fan with a dose of reality

:good

:good

[Duodenum]

I think he'd have done better at heavyweight if he'd have come in even lighter than 190. :yepWell he certainly did against Willard and Fulton.

[Duodenum]

Funny, i must have missed those moments when a 190lbs Holyfield was beating up heavyweights.


Holyfield had an iron chin and that has carried him in many fights at HW (including the Tyson fight). How many of the 220lbs+ monster punchers did Dempsey prove himself against? Willard never landed much, neither did Fulton. Firpo did and he knocked Dempsey silly.I won't bother to rehash our disagreements about Dempsey/Firpo again. I will say that I've always wondered how Holyfield would have done against the heavyweights he defeated if he still weighed 190. Likewise, I've wondered how the 170 pound Mike Spinks of the David Sears fight might have done against Holmes and Cooney. I'm not entirely sold on the notion that increased weight is as important as increased strength.

[Sonny's jab]

I'm not really criticizing Dempsey here. My post was only intendend to pull your chains a bit Sonny, and it apparently worked like a charm. I will say however that the whole thing about McNeeley is a joke. Frankly if you think that Tyson givng him a fight is bad after 4 years of inactivity, is as bad as Dempsey fighting MIske for the title, then lets just have a beer and call it quits, because I don't know how else to refute this argument.


Of course, Dempsey with his duty as world's champion, is worse, but I was just pointing out that giving McNeeley that payday was actually an even bigger case of "charity", and the result even more of a foregone conclusion.


I just got through celebrating my daughter's 1st birthday, and this is how I feel :cheers

Of all the posters on ESB Sonny, you're the one who I would most want to buy a beer at a pub. You're the biggest pain in my arse, but I love ya big boy.....:good

You're my man Sonny.....I LOVE YOU..... And I don't give a crap about who would win between Tyson and Dempsey. You pick and I'll follow......

Congratulations, man.
LOVE YOU TOO
:good

[janitor]

I think he'd have done better at heavyweight if he'd have come in even lighter than 190. :yep

One question.

If the Tyson who fought Holyfield had gone up against the cruiserweight version of Holyfield would you bet on Tyson?

Would the diference in weight have turned the fight in Tysons favour?

[UpWithEvil]

Holyfield was no-where near the size of Dempsey when fighting Tyson. The big thing is he felt he needed to pack on a substancial amount of extra muscle and size to compete at heavyweight.

And that's what the steroids were for.

Dempsey and Holyfield are two men of the same biometric size. Holyfield just needed to cheat and use steroids to compete at heavyweight.

[couch13]

He refuted absolutely nothing that I said. One of his so called rebuddles was to compare Dempsey's title defense against Billy Miske to Tyson's tuneup fight with McNeeley. If he can't tell the difference between a world title fight and a comeback bout, then I seriously have to question his ability to rebuddle any argument as it may pertain to boxing.

Have you looked at Miske's post-Dempsey record? That paycheck saved him, what Dempsey did was actually a good thing, even if he brutalized him in the fight. Besides, in terms of competition, it's no different than Marciano fighting Cockell or Ali fighting Wepner other than the fact that Dempsey was doing it because his friend needed the money. Another good example being Joe Louis fighting John Henry Lewis because he needed money.

I was already well aware of this, and believe me, it was a media stunt. Wills was never going to get a shot at Dempsey and thats all there is to it.

Prove it.

[couch13]

I'm not really criticizing Dempsey here. My post was only intendend to pull your chains a bit Sonny, and it apparently worked like a charm. I will say however that the whole thing about McNeeley is a joke. Frankly if you think that Tyson givng him a fight is bad after 4 years of inactivity, is as bad as Dempsey fighting MIske for the title, then lets just have a beer and call it quits, because I don't know how else to refute this argument.

Nice trolling 9/10

I just got through celebrating my daughter's 1st birthday, and this is how I feel :cheers

Of all the posters on ESB Sonny, you're the one who I would most want to buy a beer at a pub. You're the biggest pain in my arse, but I love ya big boy.....:good

You're my man Sonny.....I LOVE YOU..... And I don't give a crap about who would win between Tyson and Dempsey. You pick and I'll follow.......

Congrats on your daughters first birthday.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=couch13]Have you looked at Miske's post-Dempsey record? That paycheck saved him, what Dempsey did was actually a good thing, even if he brutalized him in the fight. Besides, in terms of competition, it's no different than Marciano fighting Cockell or Ali fighting Wepner other than the fact that Dempsey was doing it because his friend needed the money. Another good example being Joe Louis fighting John Henry Lewis because he needed money.

Yes, but the other men that you mentioned, had a number of significant title defenses against quality fighters. Ali's reputation and legacy does not ride on his fight with Chuck Wepner, and nor does Marciano's with Cockell. Dempsey was a champion who had only 5 title defenses in 7 years. When you have so few defenses, the people you give shots to better damn well be worth it.




Prove it.


I think the fact that he avoided Wills for the better part of 10 years is proof enough.

[Sonny's jab]

The thing about the Billy Miske criticism is that Dempsey actually beat a younger version of Miske - who nobody claims was sick at the time, as far as I know - in 1918.
He drew with him over 10 and later beat him over 6. Not his greatest performance, but a good win nontheless over a decent fighter.

So when someone lists Billy Miske as a good fighter Dempsey beat, it is valid.

Of course, Miske lost a few after that, and was really in a slight career slump when handed a shot at the title, plus he was "sick". But let's not be too harsh on Dempsey for being "charitable". Those were harsh times.

I dont actually hear anyone who rates Dempsey highly saying Dempsey's legacy rides on his title fight with Billy Miske. That's an argument that has been falsely imposed by Dempsey critics, a strawman.

Still, most accounts agree that Dempsey made short work of Miske in emphatic fashion, putting the "sick has-been" out of his misery ala Louis-JHLewis or Ali-C.Williams.

Dempsey was dreadfully inactive as champion, yes.
But he fought a heck of a lot of fights to get there, and has 3 or 4 very good wins and performances pre-title.