Moral victory is what it's all about in Hopkins vs. Calzaghe!

[Decebal]

I am somewhat surprised to see that many here debate in earnest who the victor in this fight will be or whether or not the judges will score the fight fairly. To me, it's obvious who the winner will be and irrelevant whether the judges will give the nod to the actual winner.

I am baffled, however, when I see knowledgeable boxing fans proposing to take a scant interested in this fight, citing as reason the difference in the level of performance that the two men are likely to display on the night. Some are even thinking so far ahead that they campaign for a Calzaghe fight with Dawson, because he displays elite skills, implying that Hopkins no longer does. Incredibly short-sigthed, in my opinion!

Surely everyone must realise that the real victor of Hopkins vs. Calzaghe will not be he who hits more whilst being hit less but he who turns out to be the more competent ring-general, the superior and more flexible strategic planner and implementor and the mentally stronger, more intelligent and artful operator. Are these not "skills" too?

The reason why Calzaghe was so impressive in his performance against Kessler - his most significant victory to date - is that he dominated the young, likable and brave Dane mentally, through sheer strength of will, showing supreme stamina and speed, tactically, enforcing a superior jab, reacting well and working around his gameplan, and morally, by fighting a cleaner fight than he was expected to or could have gotten away with. Had Calzaghe been knocked out in the last round by Kessler's punches, he would still have been the moral victor in that fight. To me, this is clear!

Similarly, if Hopkins wins the mental battle prior to the fight, managing to force Calzaghe to enter the ring with an inappropriate attitude, if he proves to be the better ring-general on the night, implementing and asserting a winning strategy that catches Calzaghe by surprise and outwits him regularly, if he employs artful tricks of gamesmanship successfully to make Calzaghe lose his nerve and draw him into fighting scrappily, if he shows more will to win in the crucial moments of the fight, certain to be showcased with typical aplomb, Hopkins will be the moral victor in this encounter, irrespective of the number of effective punches thrown by Calzaghe in comparison, or the decision of the judges.

I am surprised to notice that quite a few knowledgeable fans fail to consider these aspects of the sport important. At this stage in their career, given the age difference between them, these facets are all important to me. However, they are all important in and of themselves too, because boxing is not just about speed, strength, endurance and precision. The mental and moral aspects of the sport are crucial, I would argue.

I would also like to add that whilst I agree that the referee might play a salutary role as Hopkins' accomplice in this fight, I will expect Calzaghe to use his youth and freshness, stamina and strength, fitness and especially speed to overcome that imbalance and assert himself within the limits accepted by the referee.

So, if you are still uncertain why Hopkins has taken this fight, think how important the moral victory would be to him, against Calzaghe, and question yourself whether a fighter who competes for the moral victory against the odds stacked high by such a formidable opponent doesn't deserve our unstinted praise and admiration.

[McGrain]

Cowboys are cool.

[dan-b]

Good post apart from one thing. Getting knocked out in the last round doesn't give you a moral victory in my opinion.

[Decebal]

Getting knocked out in the last round doesn't give you a moral victory in my opinion.

You're wrong, kid.

Kessler needed the knock-out and Calzaghe could have danced around him in that last round. Instead, he decided to put the last nail in Kessler's coffin by holding true, taking his best punches like a man and getting out alive.

[Dorfmeister]

What has been said in this post, I have been sayin for long and as soon as the fight was officially announced. I don't know about moral issues but boxing is not just numbers ( stats, punch output, age, height, reach) but is really about who has your number... Hopkins had Winky's number and he was behind in jabs and total punches thrown and landed ( just ahead on powerpunch stats - any punch other than a jab), Calzaghe surely had Kessler's number and that was reflected in numbers as well. The thing was defined well by Max Kellerman at the start of this last fight, Kessler's boxing fundamentals to beat Calzaghe's unorthodox athleticism like Pavlik to Taylor - in the end, it didn't, Calzaghe spoiled Kessler's boxing... The game is almost all mental and if you mean "moral victory" as taking your opponent's confidence away and commanding, controlling the fight, the tempo, the pace, that's all good. Calzaghe handspeed may get to be deceptive for Hopkins and Hopkins' counterpunch timing may get to be frustrating for Calzaghe... All of this will go to the scorecards - remember the judges have 3 minutes ( plus 1 minute) to decide whom are they giving the round to, they have no time to go into stats and connect rates...

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[dan-b]

You're wrong, kid.

Kessler needed the knock-out and Calzaghe could have danced around him in that last round. Instead, he decided to put the last nail in Kessler's coffin by holding true, taking his best punches like a man and getting out alive.

Shall we talk like adults? Thanks.:good

I think we have crossed wires. I thought you were saying had Kessler knocked Calzaghe out in the last round the moral victory would have been with Joe.

[Gneus7]

Hopkins won't get a moral victory if he fights too negatively like against Eastman or if he fights too dirty.

[BigBone]

Moral victory is what it's all about in Hopkins vs. Calzaghe!
Nice post man!

Of course the mental (not moral) part is very important in boxing and I agree absolutely that Calaghe got into Kessler's head and never let him back in the fight (altough Mikkel fought like a warrior in the 12th landing his biggest shots in the second half of the fight). These are important weapons in our sport or in any other sport.

However the biggest counterpoint to your post is the April fight itself and the competitors. Both guys are very very tough mentally, very well aware what’s going in the ring and they are both 40+ fight, 25+year experienced crafty veteran warriors so even if the mental battle is in important thing I can’t see any other fight today where mental battle could be a MINOR issue. No way that Hopkins can get into Calzaghe’s head and vice versa.

Of course sometimes Joe gets carried away but that when he really wants to get an instant revenge to a great shot or something so he’s not a wild man or a furious attacker to be counter-punched easily. So he becomes aggressive very intelligently and usually after he got caught not before. And Calzaghe's probably the most dangerous when he suddenly strikes back but then again he always knows what’s going on. It's not easy to break him. And of course no one is breaking Hopkins mentally. He’s the finest of the mental warriors.

So at the age of 36 and 42, I don’t see them letting the other guy get into their head. It’s gonna be a pure skill vs. skill battle between two great awkward legends.

[Dorfmeister]

Hopkins won't get a moral victory if he fights too negatively like against Eastman or if he fights too dirty.

Yes, he will b'cause being dirty without being penalised is a part of the tricks and wits. When did a clean fighter earn moral victories just for that reason? Even Joe roughed poor ole Mikkel Kessler up and had a smile in his face and embracing arms to him at the final bell... Hopkins is a great dirty fighter - as of late, Roy Jones Jr was the one to notice him hitting JT low on the blind side of Jay Nady as a HBO commentator ... Bernard grabbed Winky's right arm and nailed him real good with double short hooks on the blind side of Robert Byrd all night long... And when Byrd or Nady tried to warn him ( for grabbing and breaking off without punching, not just clinching) he would open his arms and play the victim. And I'm not sure the cut on JT's head and on Winky's eyebrow were that accidental. There are no moral victories in boxing, there is no moral in boxing as in life... I'm sure Bernard would say Calzaghe is a great fighter and all he did was just to promote the fight in the end, as long as he wins in amoral fashion.

[Decebal]

What has been said in this post, I have been sayin for long and as soon as the fight was officially announced. I don't know about moral issues but boxing is not just numbers ( stats, punch output, age, height, reach) but is really about who has your number... Hopkins had Winky's number and he was behind in jabs and total punches thrown and landed ( just ahead on powerpunch stats - any punch other than a jab), Calzaghe surely had Kessler's number and that was reflected in numbers as well. The thing was defined well by Max Kellerman at the start of this last fight, Kessler's boxing fundamentals to beat Calzaghe's unorthodox athleticism like Pavlik to Taylor - in the end, it didn't, Calzaghe spoiled Kessler's boxing... The game is almost all mental and if you mean "moral victory" as taking your opponent's confidence away and commanding, controlling the fight, the tempo, the pace, that's all good. Calzaghe handspeed may get to be deceptive for Hopkins and Hopkins' counterpunch timing may get to be frustrating for Calzaghe... All of this will go to the scorecards - remember the judges have 3 minutes ( plus 1 minute) to decide whom are they giving the round to, they have no time to go into stats and connect rates...

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It seems to me you are arguing Hopkins could beat Calzaghe, because it's likely "he has Calzaghe's number". I, on the other hand, am arguing that although Hopkins won't beat Calzaghe, because he doesn't have enough in the tank anymore, due to his age, he could end up convincing everyone that had he had as much as Joe in the tank, (had they both been to an equal extent in their prime), he would have beaten Calzaghe, because the extent to which Hopkins "has Calzaghe's number" is greater than the extent to which "Calzaghe has Hopkins' number" i.e. Hopkins finds, implements and enforces a flexible, responsive strategy that would have beaten Calzaghe had he had enough in the tank.

[Decebal]

Nice post man!

Of course the mental (not moral) part is very important in boxing

Physical aspects include: speed, strength, power, endurance, agility, etc.

Mental aspects include: depth of concentration, length of time for which you can concentrate deeply, speed of thought, analytical skills, etc.

Moral aspects include: courage, resolve, resilience, nerve, etc.

All these are tightly linked.

In my post, I suggested that the mental and moral aspects of sport are as important as the physical aspects.

I used "moral" in two separate ways, however: figuratively "Moral victory" and literally, to refer to moral aspects of the sport.

So at the age of 36 and 42, I don’t see them letting the other guy get into their head. It’s gonna be a pure skill vs. skill battle between two great awkward legends.

In that case, how would you explain that Hopkins has taken this fight? His physical skills, because it seems you are referring to these, are considerably inferior to Calzaghe's. He would have no chance to win the moral victory. Fortunately, this is not the case. Hopkins can win the moral victory by proving that his mental and moral skills are superior to Calzaghe's, and, had his physical skills been as close to what they once were as Calzaghe's presently were, he would have won.

[Decebal]

Hopkins won't get a moral victory if he fights too negatively like against Eastman or if he fights too dirty.

I think that as long as the referee doesn't altogether throw the rule-book out of the window, Hopkins could be the moral victor. You are right, however, when you suggest that by killing the fight completely, Hopkins would have no chance to prove his superior mental and moral qualities.

[Dorfmeister]

It seems to me you are arguing Hopkins could beat Calzaghe, because it's likely "he has Calzaghe's number". I, on the other hand, am arguing that although Hopkins won't beat Calzaghe, because he doesn't have enough in the tank anymore, due to his age, he could end up convincing everyone that had he had as much as Joe in the tank, (had they both been to an equal extent in their prime), he would have beaten Calzaghe, because the extent to which Hopkins "has Calzaghe's number" is greater than the extent to which "Calzaghe has Hopkins' number" i.e. Hopkins finds, implements and enforces a flexible, responsive strategy that would have beaten Calzaghe had he had enough in the tank.

I didn't say that Hopkins has Calzaghe's number but I also don't necessarily agree with your take on Hopkins' motive about the up-coming match. I have seen Bernard breathing deep in between rounds against Winky in July and it wouldn't take Einstein to predict that he won't be able to match Calzaghe's workrate if the pace gets to be very, very hard ( well, I also don't know how will Cal react if the going gets very tough early)... Again on your assumption and Hopkins' moral victory issue, I really think he would have better options to end his career than to convince people ( in sure to be defeat) about what he would have done had he been in Cal's condition... No, man, I believe he is really convinced he can take it maybe because he is not convinced about Calzaghe himself. Maybe he doesn't feel Joe is the alpha male in the wolf pack or using another view based on your own avatar, that Joe is not some Dirty Harry or one Sergio Leone's Western Spaghetti's character. I am not also convinced about this but I am about Hops' capacity to make this into a very close, tough fight.

[Decebal]

I didn't say that Hopkins has Calzaghe's number but I also don't necessarily agree with your take on Hopkins' motive about the up-coming match. I have seen Bernard breathing deep in between rounds against Winky in July and it wouldn't take Einstein to predict that he won't be able to match Calzaghe's workrate if the pace gets to be very, very hard ( well, I also don't know how will Cal react if the going gets very tough early)... Again on your assumption and Hopkins' moral victory issue, I really think he would have better options to end his career than to convince people ( in sure to be defeat) about what he would have done had he been in Cal's condition... No, man, I believe he is really convinced he can take it maybe because he is not convinced about Calzaghe himself. Maybe he doesn't feel Joe is the alpha male in the wolf pack or using another view based on your own avatar, that Joe is not some Dirty Harry or one Sergio Leone's Western Spaghetti's character. I am not also convinced about this but I am about Hops' capacity to make this into a very close, tough fight.

A moral victory over Calzaghe could still help Hopkins climb back up into the pound-for-pound top ten, whilst dropping Calzaghe to fourth or fifth, depending on each fighter's performance on the night. Surely that is some incentive, wouldn't you say?

[Decebal]

Cowboys are cool.

Yes, they are, McGrain...if not particularly smart.

[Dorfmeister]

A moral victory over Calzaghe could still help Hopkins climb back up into the pound-for-pound top ten, whilst dropping Calzaghe to fourth or fifth, depending on each fighter's performance on the night. Surely that is some incentive, wouldn't you say?

The great strategical wisdom that would enable him to compete against a much busier Joe Calzaghe doesn't help Hops in his quest towards retirement... Why would he want to get the better out of a loss against Calzaghe and not take a former P4P best (RJJ) in what would make as much sense finantially?... The major incentive is always big doe, the thousands that will come to Mandalay Bay, but also all about their legacies - there's no doubt in my mind a win over Hops is the perfect icing on the cake for Cal and that works the other way around too. Of course, the loser will try to diminuish the aspects of that disappointment cuz there gat to be a loser, but they're going into this one with their minds set on victory.

[Decebal]

The great strategical wisdom that would enable him to compete against a much busier Joe Calzaghe doesn't help Hops in his quest towards retirement... Why would he want to get the better out of a loss against Calzaghe and not take a former P4P best (RJJ) in what would make as much sense finantially?... The major incentive is always big doe, the thousands that will come to Mandalay Bay, but also all about their legacies - there's no doubt in my mind a win over Hops is the perfect icing on the cake for Cal and that works the other way around too. Of course, the loser will try to diminuish the aspects of that disappointment cuz there gat to be a loser, but they're going into this one with their minds set on victory.

In that case, I will have given Hopkins too much credit for his intelligence level; unless he wins, that is, in which case, beside the fact that I will leave ESB, as promised, [don't worry about possible future aliases either; they're onto me big time!] I will consider it a minor miracle!

Thank you for your reply, Dorfmeister.

[randeris]

I don't agree. To win by knockout, is still the original and the well, true way to win (not to be misunderstood, just could not find a better word). Do you then think Jersey Joe Walcott is the moral victor against Rocky Marciano? I sure don't. The winner is the winner, and the moral victor, unless ofcourse he won by cheating. Had Kessler landed a clean punch, knocked Calzaghe out, i don't think Calzaghe would feel like the moral victor.

[Dorfmeister]

Of course you'll leave ESB with the rest of these clowns who spent so much time and energy hyping up a mediocrity; you're not man enough to stay and eat crow for knowing fuck-all about boxing...

To me this is just another thinly veiled "Calzaghe winning is guaranteed" thread

I can't possibly find a reason to insult Decebal and get him out of ESB other than him being convinced that Joe Calzaghe is gonna take a fight he's favored to win. Actually, it annoys me to think that someone would want Decebal or any other given individual to leave the board for believing in an outcome for a fight! Decebal should prove he's more than just man enough for Tyson86 and eat all that Tyson can give to him ( implicitly Tyson 86 should never leave the board either). Let's just recognise we don't know shit about what's gonna happen, fuck Cal, fuck Hops, let's just forget about chidish bets?

I think this thread is not just about supporting Calzaghe but Tyson has a point in saying that a guaranteed win was suggested. There's nothing wrong about it anyway.

[Decebal]

As everything in my opening post suggests, I believe there is no way Hopkins can beat Calzaghe. This thread wasn't really about that, though.

I haven't made any "leave ESB forever" bet with anyone. However, if my prediction of the outcome of this fight is wrong, I will leave, as I have said I would, because it means I haven't learned anything in a whole year of ESB.

In the meantime, I will start debating the technical aspects of this fight with Dorfmeister, sues2nd, etc. and leave rhetoric to one side.

[peter5]

Decebal, dont be a Tart!:good You dont have to leave ESB if Cal loses, it doesnt mean you didnt learn anything in a year here, it just means you got the prediction wrong,nothing wrong with that, nonoe has a 100% prediction rate, and it certainly doesnt lean you know nothing about boxing, and you know as well as I that you cant trust those fucking Las Vgas judges!

Calzaghe by UD

[Amsterdam]

You have any bets in on this fight yet? I'll make you the same offer I've made every other Calzaghe fan on here assured of a victory: Joe as a 1/2 favorite, 10k max. To date nobody on ESB has taken me up on this, which seems odd considering those are great odds as Joe's such a lock. PM me if you want to be the first to back up your claims monetarily, because for now it seems like I'm the only one willing to.

I already said I'd bet several thousand with you, but we have never discussed deals.

[Decebal]

Decebal, dont be a Tart!:good You dont have to leave ESB if Cal loses, it doesnt mean you didnt learn anything in a year here, it just means you got the prediction wrong,nothing wrong with that, nonoe has a 100% prediction rate, and it certainly doesnt lean you know nothing about boxing, and you know as well as I that you cant trust those fucking Las Vgas judges!

Calzaghe by UD

If Calzaghe fights like I think he will, there is nothing the Las Vegas judges will be able to do about it. I am a big Calzaghe fan, but this is not about Calzaghe, or about Hopkins. This is a "bet" I have made with myself. :good

Let's not talk about me anymore, though.

Let's talk analyse technical aspects of the fight.

[Decebal]

You have any bets in on this fight yet? I'll make you the same offer I've made every other Calzaghe fan on here assured of a victory: Joe as a 1/2 favorite, 10k max. To date nobody on ESB has taken me up on this, which seems odd considering those are great odds as Joe's such a lock. PM me if you want to be the first to back up your claims monetarily, because for now it seems like I'm the only one willing to.

I don't trust you or respect you so I will not be entering into any bets with you.

[Dorfmeister]

In the meantime, I will start debating the technical aspects of this fight with Dorfmeister, sues2nd, etc. and leave rhetoric to one side.

I wish Tyson86 and Decebal start to debate without any unnecessary use of empty rhetoric or strong language too. I guess sues2nd has the same view as I have but I am a little handicaped here - I made a bid on ebay and am about to buy Joe C entire career collection just now - so I can tell that since last night, I am almost fully focused on Wlad vs Brewster II, Iggy vs Briggs and Iggy vs Holy and technicalities between those two... Still I will be glad to post when I think it's necessary about Cal-Hops, not just posting to increase my number of posts - that's just irrelevant to me! Thank you friends Decebal and Tyson86.

[Decebal]

This is where I get off, in this thread. I will not respond to any more posts.

[peter5]

If Calzaghe fights like I think he will, there is nothing the Las Vegas judges will be able to do about it. I am a big Calzaghe fan, but this is not about Calzaghe, or about Hopkins. This is a "bet" I have made with myself. :good

Let's not talk about me anymore, though.

Let's talk analyse technical aspects of the fight.

Fair enough :good Personally I dont believe Hopkins can handle JC's workrate for one, and secondly, people talk about Hopkins' ability to adapt and work a opponent out during a fight and make them fight his fight, this is precisely what joe does, I was in Cardiff when he fought Kessler, and for the first 4 rounds I was slightly concerned, but from that point on it was a domination from Joe, I dont see any reason why it will be different on April 19th. And for me, this is Hopkins' biggest test, taking on a p4p fighter in his natural weight division (if you count the fact JC has struggles to make weight for a while at 168)

Peace