Lloyd Honeyghan is way too underrated!

[brownpimp88]

Honestly this guy is so underrated its not even funny. I always hear names like de la hoya, trinidad, whitaker and donald curry be mentioned when discussing top 20 atg welterweights, yet he never gets mentioned. At welterweight he beat top 3 p4per donald curry, gianfranco rosi, jorge vaca, johnny bumphus, gene hatcher, maurice blocker. He also has wins over legitmate contenders like brazier, stafford, shufford, twinning, and kil chung.

In my honest opinion, its not even a comparison. At welterweight his wins resume crushes that of de la hoya, whitaker and tito. They all picked on smaller fighter or old guys, while honeyghan beat 6 world champs at this wieght class. His only losses are to other world champs, nothing to be ashamed of at all.

[zippy]

I wasn't aware Ralph Twinning was a contender. Besides the very thing you try to nail DLH for Honeyghan is also guilty of. Bumphus and Hatcher were used up junior-welterweights. The only top flight fighter he ever beat was Curry. He was a good fighter, but youre making him out to be more than he was.

[sweet_scientist]

Honestly this guy is so underrated its not even funny. I always hear names like de la hoya, trinidad, whitaker and donald curry be mentioned when discussing top 20 atg welterweights, yet he never gets mentioned. At welterweight he beat top 3 p4per donald curry, gianfranco rosi, jorge vaca, johnny bumphus, gene hatcher, maurice blocker. He also has wins over legitmate contenders like brazier, stafford, shufford, twinning, and kil chung.

In my honest opinion, its not even a comparison. At welterweight his wins resume crushes that of de la hoya, whitaker and tito. They all picked on smaller fighter or old guys, while honeyghan beat 6 world champs at this wieght class. His only losses are to other world champs, nothing to be ashamed of at all.
Depends how much emphasis you put on the Curry win really. Curry was top 3 p4p but how bad did DOn look that night? You think Tito and DLH wouldn't destroy that Curry? You think Pea wouldn't make an absolute fool out of him?

Take away the Curry win and you have him beating some decent fighters, but no one outstanding.

I'd say Lloyd is a Simon Brown level fighter - just a half notch below the Titos, DLHs and Peas of the welterweight division.

[brownpimp88]

I wasn't aware Ralph Twinning was a contender. Besides the very thing you try to nail DLH for Honeyghan is also guilty of. Bumphus and Hatcher were used up junior-welterweights. The only top flight fighter he ever beat was Curry. He was a good fighter, but youre making him out to be more than he was.
im sorry but i mentioned 3 lineal weltwerweight champs and a future 154 champ. Please tell me how many welterweight champs de la hoya beat during his tenure as a welterweight. Old ass chavez, blown up gatti, old ass camacho, corley, rivera, carpentier, kamau?

[brownpimp88]

Depends how much emphasis you put on the Curry win really. Curry was top 3 p4p but how bad did DOn look that night? You think Tito and DLH wouldn't destroy that Curry? You think Pea wouldn't make an absolute fool out of him?

Take away the Curry win and you have him beating some decent fighters, but no one outstanding.

I'd say Lloyd is a Simon Brown level fighter - just a half notch below the Titos, DLHs and Peas of the welterweight division. yeah but just compare thier welterweight resumes really. Pea and dlh didnt beat as many chasmps at that weight. I'm sure honeyghan could have been champ longer if he fought the same bums that tito did from 95-98.

Blocker and vaca may not be ATGs, but they were better than most of the welterweights that those other 3 beat. Same thing with gianfranco rosi.

Hey curry may not have been at his best, but hey im sure honeyghan would have beaten blown up chavez and all the bums tito kept fighting.

[zippy]

im sorry but i mentioned 3 lineal weltwerweight champs and a future 154 champ. Please tell me how many welterweight champs de la hoya beat during his tenure as a welterweight. Old ass chavez, blown up gatti, old ass camacho, corley, rivera, carpentier, kamau?

You forgot Quartey, and most agree he did enough to beat Tito. Bottom line is, you put ANY of those guys Honeyghan fought against DLH and they don't see the final bell. None of them. The two fighters aren't comparable at all. Brazier was also a 140 pounder and Chung and Shufford and Stafford were very borderline, as was Vaca. Doesn't leave much on your list.

[brownpimp88]

You forgot Quartey, and most agree he did enough to beat Tito. Bottom line is, you put ANY of those guys Honeyghan fought against DLH and they don't see the final bell. None of them. The two fighters aren't comparable at all. Brazier was also a 140 pounder and Chung and Shufford and Stafford were very borderline, as was Vaca. Doesn't leave much on your list.

O please, donald curry would have a great shot at beating oscar, he would probably be the favourite. You keep downgrading his wins, please at least he didnt pick on old washed up hasbeens.:lol:

[zippy]

O please, donald curry would have a great shot at beating oscar, he would probably be the favourite. You keep downgrading his wins, please at least he didnt pick on old washed up hasbeens.:lol:


Any good welterweight would have beaten the Donald Cury that showed up that night. He was weight drained.

Have you seen any of these guys to any extent? Or did you just get his record off boxrec?

[brownpimp88]

Any good welterweight would have beaten the Donald Cury that showed up that night. He was weight drained.

Have you seen any of these guys to any extent? Or did you just get his record off boxrec?
yeah im sure the 36 year old chavez and the 80 year old camacho would have beat him too right? Oscar's welterweight resume is far more overrated. Wilfredo rivera arguably beat cokhead whitaker, hurtado was schooling him priro to the stoppage, yet de la hoya couldnt do shit but hit thin air and arguably lost that fight. De la hoya also arguably lost to a quartey that hadnt fought in a year and a half.:lol:

[zippy]

yeah im sure the 36 year old chavez and the 80 year old camacho would have beat him too right? Oscar's welterweight resume is far more overrated. Wilfredo rivera arguably beat cokhead whitaker, hurtado was schooling him priro to the stoppage, yet de la hoya couldnt do shit but hit thin air and arguably lost that fight. De la hoya also arguably lost to a quartey that hadnt fought in a year and a half.:lol:

No; those two weren't good welterweights. I said GOOD welteweights. Seiously, go watch some of these fighters on this great resume of Honeyghan's and get back to me.

And you should know enough than to compare the unprepared unmotivated version of Whitaker we saw against Hurtado and Rivera with the one we saw amped up and well-trained fighter we saw against DLH. You know all this (I hope).

[brownpimp88]

No; those two weren't good welterweights. I said GOOD welteweights. Seiously, go watch some of these fighters on this great resume of Honeyghan's and get back to me.

And you should know enough than to compare the unprepared unmotivated version of Whitaker we saw against Hurtado and Rivera with the one we saw amped up and well-trained fighter we saw against DLH. You know all this (I hope).
He was fully prepared in the rematch against rivera, only won by like 1 or 2 points and yeah ive seen that fight on espn. Quit making lame ass excuses, he couldnt dominate an old whitaker like he was supposed too.

[sweet_scientist]

yeah but just compare thier welterweight resumes really. Pea and dlh didnt beat as many chasmps at that weight. I'm sure honeyghan could have been champ longer if he fought the same bums that tito did from 95-98.

Blocker and vaca may not be ATGs, but they were better than most of the welterweights that those other 3 beat. Same thing with gianfranco rosi.

Hey curry may not have been at his best, but hey im sure honeyghan would have beaten blown up chavez and all the bums tito kept fighting.

If you accept that Honeyghan was fighting a diminished Curry then i don't see how you can really make the claim that Lloyd has a better resume.

I mean, I would take Chavez and McGirt over that Curry in a heartbeat.

I would take Quartey and the Whitaker that faced DLH over that Curry in a heartbeat.

I would take DLH over that Curry in a heartbeat.

I don't think Whitaker (a relatively prime one), DLH or Tito would ever lose to someone like Vaca. They also wouldn't get thoroughly owned the way way Lloyd was by Marlon Starling.

[brownpimp88]

If you accept that Honeyghan was fighting a diminished Curry then i don't see how you can really make the claim that Lloyd has a better resume.

I mean, I would take Chavez and McGirt over that Curry in a heartbeat.

I would take Quartey and the Whitaker that faced DLH over that Curry in a heartbeat.

I would take DLH over that Curry in a heartbeat.

I don't think Whitaker (a relatively prime one), DLH or Tito would ever lose to someone like Vaca. They also wouldn't get thoroughly owned the way way Lloyd was by Marlon Starling. whats ur point really, it pisses me off when you do this.

Please tell me what the fuck did chavez ever do at this weight? Please inform me. He did nothing at welterweight. Curry was sturggling to make weight long before the lloyd, fight yet he kept winning. If it was such a washed up curry, why was the enitre boxing world shocked. There is always an excuse when a big upset happens.

Mcgirt, chavez, green hurtado is a better resume than rosi, vaca, blocker, bumphus, hatcher, and donald curry. This is what you are honestly telling me.

Hurtado wasnt even ranked by ring when whitaker fought him, niether was jake rodriguez.

[sweet_scientist]

yeah im sure the 36 year old chavez and the 80 year old camacho would have beat him too right? Oscar's welterweight resume is far more overrated. Wilfredo rivera arguably beat cokhead whitaker, hurtado was schooling him priro to the stoppage, yet de la hoya couldnt do shit but hit thin air and arguably lost that fight. De la hoya also arguably lost to a quartey that hadnt fought in a year and a half.:lol:
Depends how you look at it. One man could look and see DLH losing to Whitaker, Quartey and Trinidad. Another man can look and see DLH beating all three of them and losing a close fight with Shane Mosley. That would utterly shit on anything Lloyd has done at the weight, and it's arguably true.

I have DLH losing by a point to Pea, drawing with Quartey, beating Tito by 4 points and losing to Shane by 2. To me that puts him ahead of Lloyd Honeyghan.

Against that quartet I'm not sure Lloyd wins a single fight.

[brownpimp88]

Depends how you look at it. One man could look and see DLH losing to Whitaker, Quartey and Trinidad. Another man can look and see DLH beating all three of them and losing a close fight with Shane Mosley. That would utterly shit on anything Lloyd has done at the weight, and it's arguably true.

I have DLH losing by a point to Pea, drawing with Quartey, beating Tito by 4 points and losing to Shane by 2. To me that puts him ahead of Lloyd Honeyghan.

Against that quartet I'm not sure Lloyd wins a single fight.
no, i go by official resume, not how i would judge fights. Hell i can make a case de la hoya is 40-3, which would make him top 15 p4p.

[sweet_scientist]

whats ur point really, it pisses me off when you do this.

Please tell me what the fuck did chavez ever do at this weight? Please inform me. He did nothing at welterweight. Curry was sturggling to make weight long before the lloyd, fight yet he kept winning. If it was such a washed up curry, why was the enitre boxing world shocked. There is always an excuse when a big upset happens.

Do you see me comparing Curry's resume to Chavez's at welterweight? I am talking about the night that Chavez faced Whitaker and the night Curry faced Honeyghan. Chavez looked better to me than Curry did that night. If we're going to look at expectations, well Chavez was expected to beat Whitaker. So you can consider Whitaker whipping him an upset.


Mcgirt, chavez, green hurtado is a better resume than rosi, vaca, blocker, bumphus, hatcher, and donald curry. This is what you are honestly telling me.

McGirt would beat them all I'm pretty confident of that. I'd favour Chavez over them all too. Again, keep in mind what i've said about Curry. I think Chavez on the fight he faced Pea beats Curry the night he faced Honeyghan.

Hurtado wasnt even ranked by ring when whitaker fought him, niether was jake rodriguez.

Yeah.... so? They don't really amount to much for Whitaker's claim as a welterweight. I don't deny it.

[brownpimp88]

Do you see me comparing Curry's resume to Chavez's at welterweight? I am talking about the night that Chavez faced Whitaker and the night Curry faced Honeyghan. Chavez looked better to me than Curry did that night. If we're going to look at expectations, well Chavez was expected to beat Whitaker. So you can consider Whitaker whipping him an upset.




McGirt would beat them all I'm pretty confident of that. I'd favour Chavez over them all too. Again, keep in mind what i've said about Curry. I think Chavez on the fight he faced Pea beats Curry the night he faced Honeyghan.



Yeah.... so? They don't really amount to much for Whitaker's claim as a welterweight. I don't deny it. chavez beats proven much bigger fighters like gianfrano rosi, blocker and vaca, this is riduculous. He didnt beat 1 welterweight his whole life yet u claim he can beat 3 of them.:lol:

No im not confident mcgirt beats them all, i mean its not like he was an ultimate world beater. Im sure the historians hold honeyghan in a higher regard than mcgirt and he deserves too, his resume is better.

I dont think chavez was such a big favourite, all i know is one of the magazines picked him to win but thats about it. He didnt look so good against the other two benton fighters he fought previosuly, so im sure many picked whitaker to beat him.

blocker is 8 inches taller than chavez, has a much bigger reach and has beaten other welterweight, yet chavez is gonna pressure and bully him. Yeah nice analytical skills you have there.

[sweet_scientist]

no, i go by official resume, not how i would judge fights. Hell i can make a case de la hoya is 40-3, which would make him top 15 p4p.

Well, good for you for going by the book. I prefer to use my own mind to analyse things where it's possible and come up with my own opinion. I'm not going to call Whitaker-Chavez a draw just because two inept officials did. Likewise I'm not going to say Lloyd's the man for whipping the no.2 in the world p4p. I'll look at the fight and see what I see. I see Curry looking bad. I see Curry looking WORSE than he did in other fights where he was weight drained. You see a stat. Again, good for you.

[sweet_scientist]

chavez beats proven much bigger fighters like gianfrano rosi, blocker and vaca, this is riduculous. He didnt beat 1 welterweight his whole life yet u claim he can beat 3 of them.:lol:
If the Chavez that fought one night near his best as a welterweight the night he fought Whitaker shows up against Rosi, Blocker and Vaca, yes I think he beats them. I think he's a better boxer than all three, even if he's unable to outmuscle them to the extent he did against smaller fighters and apply heavy pressure. I think his chin is good enough to take anything they can give him.

No im not confident mcgirt beats them all, i mean its not like he was an ultimate world beater. Im sure the historians hold honeyghan in a higher regard than mcgirt and he deserves too, his resume is better.
Maybe they do hold Honeyghan in higher regard (maybe they don't btw), but do they hold Vaca, Blocker and Rosi in higher regard? Afterall, we're talking about Lloyd's resume here. They asnwer is a resounding FUCK NO!
Do they hold the Curry of the Honeyghan fight in higher regard? Again, good luck finding anyone to pick that Curry over McGirt.

I dont think chavez was such a big favourite, all i know is one of the magazines picked him to win but thats about it. He didnt look so good against the other two benton fighters he fought previosuly, so im sure many picked whitaker to beat him.
Chavez was a slight favourite amongst the experts and a large favourite amongst the fans/betters.


blocker is 8 inches taller than chavez, has a much bigger reach and has beaten other welterweight, yet chavez is gonna pressure and bully him. Yeah nice analytical skills you have there.
So because he has a height and reach advantage he beats Chavez? Oh and because he has beaten other welterweights? (Like who other than an old Marlon Starling in his last fight by an MD?) Yes, very good analytical skills.

[brownpimp88]

If the Chavez that fought one night near his best as a welterweight the night he fought Whitaker shows up against Rosi, Blocker and Vaca, yes I think he beats them. I think he's a better boxer than all three, even if he's unable to outmuscle them to the extent he did against smaller fighters and apply heavy pressure. I think his chin is good enough to take anything they can give him.


Maybe they do hold Honeyghan in higher regard (maybe they don't btw), but do they hold Vaca, Blocker and Rosi in higher regard? Afterall, we're talking about Lloyd's resume here. They asnwer is a resounding FUCK NO!
Do they hold the Curry of the Honeyghan fight in higher regard? Again, good luck finding anyone to pick that Curry over McGirt.


Chavez was a slight favourite amongst the experts and a large favourite amongst the fans/betters.



So because he has a height and reach advantage he beats Chavez? Oh and because he has beaten other welterweights? (Like who other than an old Marlon Starling in his last fight by an MD?) Yes, very good analytical skills. when did chavez beat someone 6'2, hell answer the original question, when did he beat a fuckin welterweight. You always claim that you dont try and put whitakers opponents on a higher pedastol, its quite obvious that you do.

Rosi outboxing chavez at 147, yeah thats the most likely outcome if those two ever fought at 147. You keep saying this chavez was awesome, yeah getting a boxing lesson of a lifetime was such an amzing performance by chavez, on top of that his great performances against randall two months later.

[sweet_scientist]

when did chavez beat someone 6'2, hell answer the original question, when did he beat a fuckin welterweight. You always claim that you dont try and put whitakers opponents on a higher pedastol, its quite obvious that you do.

He never beat anyone that is 6'2. He did beat taller fighters than himself though (Mayweather, Aguilar, Cortes, Kamau, Parisi, Jakubowski, Smith etc.) and didn't really seem to struggle with any of them. Not a lot of quality fighters there, but it's not like they stretched Chavez out to his limit either to be making a massive issue about height.

When did he beat a welterweight? Well, he beat quite a few guys AT welterweight. No one really good. I don't think that means he couldn't beat anyone good there though, because he wasn't struggling with the fighters he was fighting there. He was showing himself to be way above their level. I think the Chavez that fought Whitaker, though small was still an excellent fighter and would definitely trouble and imo beat B level welters like the aforementioned (Rosi, Vaca, Blocker).


Rosi outboxing chavez at 147, yeah thats the most likely outcome if those two ever fought at 147. You keep saying this chavez was awesome, yeah getting a boxing lesson of a lifetime was such an amzing performance by chavez, on top of that his great performances against randall two months later.

Chavez did not fight bad against Whitaker. He put up an excellent effort. It's just that he came across Whitaker in the best shape of his welterweight life and got outboxed. It's not like it wouldn't have happen to Vaca, Rosi or Blocker. Whitaker that night would have bamboozled them all, easily.

Chavez was not the same fighter after that night with Whitaker. He lost motivation, never trained as hard for a fight and lost confidence in his own ability. Not to mention the obvious, he was getting old. He could no longer do what he once could, even if he wanted to. Chavez left anything that was special about him out in that ring with Whitaker.

[Sonny's jab]

I think it's a shame that Honeyghan gets no credit for beating up Don Curry.
"Weight-drained" is the lamest excuse a boxer can ever use, esp. when he's been fighting in that very same weight class all the time. Pathetic excuse. BOTH FIGHTERS have to make weight. Making weight is part of the fight. I reckon Curry was very confident he could win until Honeyghan started beating him.
Honeyghan was undefeated too, going in to the Curry fight, but if he'd tasted defeat there who would have listened to his excuses ?

[JohnThomas1]

Honeyghan was undefeated too, going in to the Curry fight, but if he'd tasted defeat there who would have listened to his excuses ?

Nobody simply because Honeyghan had never risen to within light years of where Curry had been sitting for ages. Curry had beaten the finest welterweights available in excellent to white hot fashion, Lloyd had beaten mostly nobody. When a fighter such as Curry not only loses to an unheralded challenger but also looks so bad comparable to his average form to any astute viewer we tend to sit up and take notice. It's easy to see Curry was far from his usual self both in physique and form. There were whispers in Curry's prior fight. There is also a story or two about why he stayed at 147, but it's all been said before and is not worth me rehashing.

Credit too goes to Honeyghan for being a MUCH much finer fighter than most anyone had envisioned. It was a combination of Curry being sub par and Honeyghan being superb. He proved himself a very decent fighter, while Curry showed he one one of these more fragile fighters who never seems to quite get over that first image damaging loss.

[Sonny's jab]

Nobody simply because Honeyghan had never risen to within light years of where Curry had been sitting for ages. Curry had beaten the finest welterweights available in excellent to white hot fashion, Lloyd had beaten mostly nobody. When a fighter such as Curry not only loses to an unheralded challenger but also looks so bad comparable to his average form to any astute viewer we tend to sit up and take notice. It's easy to see Curry was far from his usual self both in physique and form. There were whispers in Curry's prior fight. There is also a story or two about why he stayed at 147, but it's all been said before and is not worth me rehashing.


Fair enough. You make good points.
(I guess that's similar to how we all know something was wrong with Clay-Liston 1, a guy like Liston losing to a kid like Clay in that fashion.)

I still think "weight drain" is generally a bad excuse. Making weight is basic to the sport, it's fundamental.

(Hey, if I think about it hard enough, maybe Tyson-Douglas can be written off as a "sub par" abberation on Tyson's part.)


Credit too goes to Honeyghan for being a MUCH much finer fighter than most anyone had envisioned. It was a combination of Curry being sub par and Honeyghan being superb. He proved himself a very decent fighter, while Curry showed he one one of these more fragile fighters who never seems to quite get over that first image damaging loss

Then again, Curry tried taking on Mike McCallum, an underrated fighter at the time, and a man who could have done the same against the best pre-Honeyghan version of Don Curry, IMO.

[sweet_scientist]

I think it's a shame that Honeyghan gets no credit for beating up Don Curry.
"Weight-drained" is the lamest excuse a boxer can ever use, esp. when he's been fighting in that very same weight class all the time. Pathetic excuse. BOTH FIGHTERS have to make weight. Making weight is part of the fight. I reckon Curry was very confident he could win until Honeyghan started beating him.
Honeyghan was undefeated too, going in to the Curry fight, but if he'd tasted defeat there who would have listened to his excuses ?

Sonny it seems you are intent on giving Lloyd credit for the win. That's fine. But ask yourself this; which other welterweights would have beaten Donald Curry the night he faced Honeyghan?

If you don't compile a long list, you're not being honest with yourself.

[Sonny's jab]

Sonny it seems you are intent on giving Lloyd credit for the win. That's fine. But ask yourself this; which other welterweights would have beaten Donald Curry the night he faced Honeyghan?

If you don't compile a long list, you're not being honest with yourself.

I dont really know the answer.
But I think Honeyghan came right at Curry and didn't really give him much chance to fire. Other good welterweights might have stood off in awe, wondering what Curry was going to do, and Curry might have iced them early.
Honeyghan went out there and bullied him.

[sweet_scientist]

I dont really know the answer.
But I think Honeyghan came right at Curry and didn't really give him much chance to fire. Other good welterweights might have stood off in awe, wondering what Curry was going to do, and Curry might have iced them early.
Honeyghan went out there and bullied him.
Fair enough, I don't think there was much there for other good welters to be in awe of really (and it wasn't as if Curry was only traditionally known for fighting on the outside and couldn't handle himself on the inside with pressure fighters. His in-game was one of his best facets), but I could be wrong.

[Raggamuffin]

Raggamuffin was a good fighter and a great character.
Maybe not a ATG but just a level below

[brownpimp88]

He never beat anyone that is 6'2. He did beat taller fighters than himself though (Mayweather, Aguilar, Cortes, Kamau, Parisi, Jakubowski, Smith etc.) and didn't really seem to struggle with any of them. Not a lot of quality fighters there, but it's not like they stretched Chavez out to his limit either to be making a massive issue about height.

When did he beat a welterweight? Well, he beat quite a few guys AT welterweight. No one really good. I don't think that means he couldn't beat anyone good there though, because he wasn't struggling with the fighters he was fighting there. He was showing himself to be way above their level. I think the Chavez that fought Whitaker, though small was still an excellent fighter and would definitely trouble and imo beat B level welters like the aforementioned (Rosi, Vaca, Blocker).




Chavez did not fight bad against Whitaker. He put up an excellent effort. It's just that he came across Whitaker in the best shape of his welterweight life and got outboxed. It's not like it wouldn't have happen to Vaca, Rosi or Blocker. Whitaker that night would have bamboozled them all, easily.

Chavez was not the same fighter after that night with Whitaker. He lost motivation, never trained as hard for a fight and lost confidence in his own ability. Not to mention the obvious, he was getting old. He could no longer do what he once could, even if he wanted to. Chavez left anything that was special about him out in that ring with Whitaker.
those guys were a good 3-4 inches shorter than him also and he fought tune up fights at welterweight against c-d level fighters, no it doesnt tell me that he would beat 3 former champs at this weight at all. I dont know if you are aware of this but 8 inches is a huge difference and not to mention the obvious reach. If he was a slickster, sure he could pull it off, but no hes a pressure fighter that likes to bully his opponents and work on the inside, this doesnr work well against bigger much much stronger men at all.:good

from 94-2000 he continued fighting at 140, except for a couple fights, i think he knew his ass belonged there.

[sweet_scientist]

those guys were a good 3-4 inches shorter than him also and he fought tune up fights at welterweight against c-d level fighters, no it doesnt tell me that he would beat 3 former champs at this weight at all. I dont know if you are aware of this but 8 inches is a huge difference and not to mention the obvious reach. If he was a slickster, sure he could pull it off, but no hes a pressure fighter that likes to bully his opponents and work on the inside, this doesnr work well against bigger much much stronger men at all.:good

from 94-2000 he continued fighting at 140, except for a couple fights, i think he knew his ass belonged there.
Chavez could box though, he wasn't just a one dimensional pressure fighter. In fact he had to rely on his boxing ability quite a bit at the tail end of his career. E.g. the few moments he enjoyed against Randall (especially in the rematch) came when Chavez outboxed Randall, not outslugged him.

As for Chavez moving back down to 140 after 1994, well obviously he was more comfortable there, but what was he going to do, hang around for another lesson from Whitaker?

Anyway, Chavez was showing himself superior to C and D level fighters at welterweight as you said, no that doesn't show that he beats some B level champions, but what it does show is that Chavez was above D or C level himself because he was handling those fighters with ease. So at the very least you can't scoff at his chances against the Rosis (who did fuck all himself at 147 btw), Blockers and Vacas.

[brownpimp88]

Chavez could box though, he wasn't just a one dimensional pressure fighter. In fact he had to rely on his boxing ability quite a bit at the tail end of his career. E.g. the few moments he enjoyed against Randall (especially in the rematch) came when Chavez outboxed Randall, not outslugged him.

As for Chavez moving back down to 140 after 1994, well obviously he was more comfortable there, but what was he going to do, hang around for another lesson from Whitaker?

Anyway, Chavez was showing himself superior to C and D level fighters at welterweight as you said, no that doesn't show that he beats some B level champions, but what it does show is that Chavez was above D or C level himself because he was handling those fighters with ease. So at the very least you can't scoff at his chances against the Rosis (who did fuck all himself at 147 btw), Blockers and Vacas.
he could beat vaca, i would give him a solid chance. I just see him losing to blocker and rosi.:good

[warchild]

Honeyghan was strong and had plenty of power, but when faced by someone who wasn't taken in by the intimidation factor, could be beaten fairly easily....as Marlon Starling demonstrated. Some people would say that Honeyghan was past his best in that fight....but don't forget that Starling was coming off of that devastating after the bell KO loss too. Honeyghan would get smoked by the likes of Oscar, Quartey, or Trinidad....they were mentally strong individuals with plenty of talent.

[JohnThomas1]

Found what i was looking for from a credible source

Curry had to lose 11 pounds in 10 days before the Honeyghan bout. This is of course his own tough luck but is certainly worth the mention.

Don Curry - That day against Honeyghan, i said "I'm Curry, i'm the best fighter in the world, i can go in 70% and still win." Hey, i thought i was Donald Curry The Great.

[sweet_scientist]

Found what i was looking for from a credible source

Curry had to lose 11 pounds in 10 days before the Honeyghan bout. This is of course his own tough luck but is certainly worth the mention.

Don Curry - That day against Honeyghan, i said "I'm Curry, i'm the best fighter in the world, i can go in 70% and still win." Hey, i thought i was Donald Curry The Great.

In and of itself 11 pounds in 10 days doesn't sound that bad. That said, I suppose it depends on how boiled down you were to begin with before you had to shed those 11 pounds.

There's no doubting Curry looked less impressive against Lloyd than he had in previous fights though.

[brownpimp88]

In and of itself 11 pounds in 10 days doesn't sound that bad. That said, I suppose it depends on how boiled down you were to begin with before you had to shed those 11 pounds.

There's no doubting Curry looked less impressive against Lloyd than he had in previous fights though.
yeah but most welterweights are around 165-170ish when they normally walk around. Eddie mustafa muhammad had to cut 26 pounds to fight spinks and yet he put up a very good fight in the first 6-8 rounds. I dont belive in all these weight excuses, making weight is the name of the game.

[sweet_scientist]

Surely you would admit there are fights where weight draining affected the fighter though. It's a fighter's duty to be in shape and make weight and all, but all the same sometimes it takes the fight out of the fighter.

For instance, I don't excuse Duran for being out of shape and weight cutting dramatically for the second Leonard fight, but I also don't deny that Duran was not as good as he had been in the first Leonard fight. I can't see how that is deniable. It's a fact.

[brownpimp88]

Surely you would admit there are fights where weight draining affected the fighter though. It's a fighter's duty to be in shape and make weight and all, but all the same sometimes it takes the fight out of the fighter.

For instance, I don't excuse Duran for being out of shape and weight cutting dramatically for the second Leonard fight, but I also don't deny that Duran was not as good as he had been in the first Leonard fight. I can't see how that is deniable. It's a fact.
I can agree it affects some people, but like i said before the curry weight issues started even before the mcrory fight. It was around 1984 that he began struggling.

[sweet_scientist]

I can agree it affects some people, but like i said before the curry weight issues started even before the mcrory fight. It was around 1984 that he began struggling.
And you don't think Curry looked any worse in the Honeyghan fight than he had in those previous fights though? There's no question for mine that he was in a more diminished state.

[zippy]

I can agree it affects some people, but like i said before the curry weight issues started even before the mcrory fight. It was around 1984 that he began struggling.

He never had to cut that much weight that quickly before.

[JohnThomas1]

In and of itself 11 pounds in 10 days doesn't sound that bad. That said, I suppose it depends on how boiled down you were to begin with before you had to shed those 11 pounds.

There's no doubting Curry looked less impressive against Lloyd than he had in previous fights though.

Curry had struggled in his previous fight also (regardless of being short) to both make the weight AND perform impressively. He looked a bit scratchy. At the time of the Honeyghan fight he was in a big managerial tug of war too.

I will not go on too much as i don't want to be seen as someone making multitudes of excuses for Curry. For me there are three facts in the matter

1. Curry was well below par for various reasons.

2. Honeyghan was a far better fighter than anyone realised.

3. Curry's problems were of course his own fault/doing thru at least two bad decisions he chose.

[hitman_hatton1]

You forgot Quartey, and most agree he did enough to beat Tito. Bottom line is, you put ANY of those guys Honeyghan fought against DLH and they don't see the final bell. None of them. The two fighters aren't comparable at all. Brazier was also a 140 pounder and Chung and Shufford and Stafford were very borderline, as was Vaca. Doesn't leave much on your list.

yeah true.

honeyghan was decent.

he ultimately did lose the 2 big ones against starling and breland though.

quartey was arguably better than starling and certainly would have beaten breland.

might watch me honeyghan tape over the next few days.

got all of his title fights and some before he won the title.

[Mantequilla]

quartey was a Welterweight Bruno;)

[redrooster]

Found what i was looking for from a credible source

Curry had to lose 11 pounds in 10 days before the Honeyghan bout. This is of course his own tough luck but is certainly worth the mention.

Don Curry - That day against Honeyghan, i said "I'm Curry, i'm the best fighter in the world, i can go in 70% and still win." Hey, i thought i was Donald Curry The Great.

hat was roughly what Duran had to lose for the leonard rematch excpet he did it in 3, leading to no mas.

One other factor you left out John: Curry's comp was mediocre until he stepped in with Lloyd. Lloyd was the first man to test his chin. McCallum was the second.

[JohnThomas1]

hat was roughly what Duran had to lose for the leonard rematch excpet he did it in 3, leading to no mas.

One other factor you left out John: Curry's comp was mediocre until he stepped in with Lloyd. Lloyd was the first man to test his chin. McCallum was the second.

What a surprise Leonard somehow come into the equation :yikes

If you put Starling, Jones and McCrory all down as mediocre then i have no real need to give a serious answer.

[Xplosive]

Honeyghan was a good fighter. Stylewise he could have given Ike and DLH hell.

However, due to styles he'd have been destroyed by Tito.