The Single Most Overrated Fighter...

[Russell]

Of all time. Who is it in your opinion?

Lets try to avoid the obvious answers.

[My dinner with Conteh]

Felix Trinidad.

[Russell]

Good pick.

[Pat_Lowe]

Felix Trinidad.
How so? I agree but what is your reasoning? For example I believe he showed very little ability to adapt. Oh and to answer the question I nominate Shane Mosley, he is touted in the general forum as an ATG but his resume is very thin, he used steroids albeit unknowingly and I don't know if he even belongs in the hall of fame. Credit to the sport though and he is a very nice guy.

[Sonny's jab]

Muhammad Ali

(Sorry, I know it's one of the "obvious answers")

[Addie]

Muhammad Ali

(Sorry, I know it's one of the "obvious answers")

Beat everybody. He's not overrated.

Floyd Mayweather, Felix Trinidad, Wlad are safer bets.

[Holmes' Jab]

I reckon Zab Judah.

[ironchamp]

I reckon Zab Judah.

Zab is not overrrated at all. Nobody is calling him #1 p4p, they acknowledge his talent and appreciate what he brings to the table.

Overrated: Vitaly Klitschko

[PhillyPhan69]

Obvious Answer: Tyson (Crazy enough to call him top 10 but some go crazier and place him top 5???)

Current: Zab Judah (just who is he a threat to???)

[McGrain]

I'm happy with Trinidad for an anwer.

But George Foreman is certianly worth a mention in the h2h sense.

[Holmes' Jab]

But George Foreman is certianly worth a mention in the h2h sense.

Agree. He's not quite the head-to-head nearly invinsible monster that some make him out to be.

[ironchamp]

Obvious Answer: Tyson (Crazy enough to call him top 10 but some go crazier and place him top 5???)

Current: Zab Judah (just who is he a threat to???)

Tyson is not overrated. Top 10 ATG, abosolutely. Top 5 no, maybe head to head but not in terms of achievements.

Judah is not overrated, I don't see anyone talking about him as the best welter around, I dont see anyone including as the top 5 in the 147 pound division.

[dmt]

Agree. He's not quite the head-to-head nearly invinsible monster that some make him out to be.he is. Name me one other fighter who could have beaten the 1973 Frazier as convincingly as Foreman did. Foreman is top 5 head to head

[Russell]

Foreman's just extremely easy to outbox, which hurts him in a H2H sense.

[Holmes' Jab]

Obvious Answer: Tyson (Crazy enough to call him top 10 but some go crazier and place him top 5???)

His mid-late 80's title reign alone warrants a place in the bottom half of the Top 10, any lower is a tad harsh I feel (he's not Top 5, though). Tyson also faced and defeated better opposition and top ranked fighters overall than 70's Foreman did (with the exception of Frazier and maybe Lyle).

[PhillyPhan69]

Tyson is not overrated. Top 10 ATG, abosolutely. Top 5 no, maybe head to head but not in terms of achievements.

Judah is not overrated, I don't see anyone talking about him as the best welter around, I dont see anyone including as the top 5 in the 147 pound division.

Since you wrote this every other thread...you just might be (are) wrong!!!

No way is Tyson top 10...15 yes! he was great, but your going overboard!!!!

[McGrain]

No way is Tyson top 10...15 yes! he was great, but your going overboard!!!!

Really? I used to have him at 11, i'll admit, but I just couldn't defend it...would love to see your 10.


I have him at 9.

[dmt]

Foreman's just extremely easy to outbox, which hurts him in a H2H sense.no he not.

Who in ur opinion outboxed Foreman during his prime (he was not in his prime vs Young btw). Even Ali could not avoid his punches, and Ali had an extremely tough chin so he survided, many others would not.

[Holmes' Jab]

he is. Name me one other fighter who could have beaten the 1973 Frazier as convincingly as Foreman did.

Stylistically speaking Liston and Lewis would've blasted Frazier out very early on too (certainly the '73 version). Tyson would have a great chance too providing he lands first.

Frazier certainly wasn't shot at that stage, but nonetheless had noticeably lost that extra edge post '71 which had made him ultra special. He was still a fine fighter of course but in any sense Foreman was a stylistic Mount Everest for him to climb. :good

[Holmes' Jab]

Peak for peak I'd favour Ali, Liston, Lewis, Holmes, Tyson and Johnson (slightly) all to beat Foreman.

[ironchamp]

Since you wrote this every other thread...you just might be (are) wrong!!!

No way is Tyson top 10...15 yes! he was great, but your going overboard!!!!

What is your criteria for ranking fighters?

And based on that criteria what 10 fighters could you possibly have in front of Tyson?

[Holmes' Jab]

#7 is about right for Tyson overall. :good

[McGrain]

Peak for peak I'd favour Ali, Liston, Lewis, Holmes, Tyson and Johnson (slightly) all to beat Foreman.

I think the problem with Foreman is he looks a bit like he could be outpunched by a great puncher (like Lyle, but a great puncher) and outboxed by a great boxer (i struggle to imagine him beating a Holmes or a Lewis) and he can clearly be out-thought and out-generaled, as we saw in the case of Ali.

He's got good raw, but he looks awful, pushing, reaching. Wide punches, no plan B.

Dempsey ko4 Foreman.

[Jase2483]

ricky hatton

by a mile

[Holmes' Jab]

I do think that Foreman would beat Dempsey, though (and Marciano too). Both would be early-mid round stoppages. Just too big, powerful and strong for each of 'em.

[Holmes' Jab]

I think the problem with Foreman is he looks a bit like he could be outpunched by a great puncher (like Lyle, but a great puncher) and outboxed by a great boxer (i struggle to imagine him beating a Holmes or a Lewis) and he can clearly be out-thought and out-generaled, as we saw in the case of Ali.

Wide punches, no plan B.


I'm with you here. :good

[PhillyPhan69]

What is your criteria for ranking fighters?

And based on that criteria what 10 fighters could you possibly have in front of Tyson?

If you want to discuss top 10 ATG's start a thread...but i will give a top 15 just because!

1 Ali
2 Holmes
3 Louis
4 Marciano
5 Foreman
6 Dempsey
7 Frazier
8 lewis
9 Liston
10 Holyfield
11 johnson
12 Tyson
13 Bowe
14 jeffries
15 Patterson

[My dinner with Conteh]

Foreman would smash Dempsey (who's the answer to this thread but that was topo obvious).

[abraq]

Muhammad Ali

(Sorry, I know it's one of the "obvious answers")

How can he be one of the "obvious answers". He is rated by most knowledgeable critics as "the greatest". He fought everybody. He has got a great record. How can anybody say that he is overrated?

Yes, he was human.

[Jase2483]

If you want to discuss top 10 ATG's start a thread...but i will give a top 15 just because!

1 Ali
2 Holmes
3 Louis
4 Marciano
5 Foreman
6 Dempsey
7 Frazier
8 lewis
9 Liston
10 Holyfield
11 johnson
12 Tyson
13 Bowe
14 jeffries
15 Patterson

obviously top 15 HW's correct?

[godking]

If you want to discuss top 10 ATG's start a thread...but i will give a top 15 just because!

1 Ali
2 Holmes
3 Louis
4 Marciano
5 Foreman
6 Dempsey
7 Frazier
8 lewis
9 Liston
10 Holyfield
11 johnson
12 Tyson
13 Bowe
14 jeffries
15 PattersonStrange that You have Holmes at 2 while he never unified the HW titles in his seven year reign another guy unified all the relevant titles in the 80s in 2 years and beat alot of the same guys that Holmes did only faster.

Liston championship reign of 1 defense is also pretty poor.

[Thread Stealer]

Quitali Quitschko

[Hatesrats]

Joe Frazier
(love His style, I wish he was Fighting Right Now)

But...

Sure he beat Ali in "The Fight of The Century"
(But Excuses after Excuse can be made For Ali's performance)

He was beat by The 2 top names in his record.
Deafeated By Ali Twice
Defeated By Foreman Twice

Besides Them The Only names on His Record are
Jimmy Ellis & Jerry Quarry?

Where is Norton?
Where is Shavers?
Where is Floyd Patterson?

I Love Joe Fraizer, But If Mike Tyson is Over-Rated...
Then throw Joe in the Same train as him.

[PhillyPhan69]

Joe Frazier
(love His style, I wish he was Fighting Right Now)

But...

Sure he beat Ali in "The Fight of The Century"
(But Excuses after Excuse can be made For Ali's performance)

He was beat by The 2 top names in his record.
Deafeated By Ali Twice
Defeated By Foreman Twice

Besides Them The Only names on His Record are
Jimmy Ellis & Jerry Quarry?

Where is Norton?
Where is Shavers?
Where is Floyd Patterson?

I Love Joe Fraizer, But If Mike Tyson is Over-Rated...
Then throw Joe in the Same train as him.

KO'd by Foreman and KO'd by Douglas are a glaring difference!

[godking]

Strange that You have Holmes at 2 while he never unified the HW titles in his seven year reign another guy unified all the relevant titles in the 80s in 2 years and beat alot of the same guys that Holmes did only faster.

Liston championship reign of 1 defense is also pretty poor.bump

[Jase2483]

bump

don't think there's anyway he could justify that.....hence he'll probably duck the thread

[Seamus]

Jack Johnson is supremely over-rated in terms of talent or ability.

[godking]

don't think there's anyway he could justify that.....hence he'll probably duck the thread:lol:

[Addie]

How can he be one of the "obvious answers". He is rated by most knowledgeable critics as "the greatest". He fought everybody. He has got a great record. How can anybody say that he is overrated?

Yes, he was human.

If you didn't know already, this thread is now completely fucked up. I noticed that when people starting puttin Mayweather Jr in their top 5 p4p of all time, and people claiming not only would Wladimir Klitschko knockout Foreman, Frazier, and Liston, but he'd beat prime Ali, also. Brillant.

Muhammad Ali beat everybody, and then he came back to beat everybody again even despite being way out of his prime. Don't say the guy is overrated, you make yourself look foolish.

[sthomas]

Maybe not the most overrated but how bout Sugar Ray Leonard? He was great, no doubt but: Duran beat him, Hearns got a draw in the rematch, Haglar was over the hill and the decision is still debated (and it's not as impressive as Ali coming back after exhile and beating Foreman), Terry Norris, and an old Camacho KO'd an old Leonard.

[Addie]

Maybe not the most overrated but how bout Sugar Ray Leonard? He was great, no doubt but: Duran beat him, Hearns got a draw in the rematch, Haglar was over the hill and the decision is still debated (and it's not as impressive as Ali coming back after exhile and beating Foreman), Terry Norris, and an old Camacho KO'd an old Leonard.

Bullshit.

Leonard beat Duran, you failed to mention that. You failed to mention he beat Duran twice. Also what you failed to mention is that he was the first guy to not only beat Thomas Hearns but first dude to stop Hearns too. You also forgot to mention yes he beat a past his prime Hagler, but moved up to Middleweight to do so. Leonard had also been coming off a layoff, that's very impressive whichever way you look at it.

So there it is, his resume is: Duran x2, Hearns, Hagler, and Wilfred Benitez. Overrated? Fuck off thn.

[Jase2483]

Maybe not the most overrated but how bout Sugar Ray Leonard? He was great, no doubt but: Duran beat him, Hearns got a draw in the rematch, Haglar was over the hill and the decision is still debated (and it's not as impressive as Ali coming back after exhile and beating Foreman), Terry Norris, and an old Camacho KO'd an old Leonard.


I think you're way off base. Look at his resume? He's got a lot of major quality wins on there, and fought the best of the best in his divisions throughouthis career.

[Titan1]

Tony Ayala Jr. or Mark Breland.

[Jase2483]

Stirring the pot again:

Ricky Hatton

:D :D

[Sweet Pea]

Maybe not the most overrated but how bout Sugar Ray Leonard? He was great, no doubt but: Duran beat him, Hearns got a draw in the rematch, Haglar was over the hill and the decision is still debated (and it's not as impressive as Ali coming back after exhile and beating Foreman), Terry Norris, and an old Camacho KO'd an old Leonard.Leonard was 41 years old and hadn't had a fight in 6 years when he fought Camacho. Camacho was still a live fighter. Including that is the same as saying Ali is overrated for getting beaten by Berbick. He was way past his best for Norris, but still survived the full 12.

Duran beat him by CLOSE decision, he beat Duran more convincingly in the rematch, and made him quit. He beat Hearns by TKO in their primes, and once again, you're trying to bring up matches when both were past their primes. He beat Hagler, the bigger man, when both were past their peaks. Not overrated. Top 10 ATG the way I see it.

[Vanboxingfan]

I think Ali's over rated, not in a career accomplishment sense perhaps, although I personally discount his wins against Liston probably more than most (due to Liston's age and the second fight, just wasn't right), but in a h2h sense.

Sure he could beat most ATG's hell maybe he could beat them all, who knows? But when any mythical matchups are discussed his close fights seem to get discounted completely and without factoring them into debates about ATG H2H battles it skews the analysis.

[radianttwilight]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Archie Moore (at heavyweight), but that's only because he got ducked like the plague at middle/lightheavy.

He could've been a top-tier middleweight ATG if he'd been given the chances, IMO.

[rendog67]

ODH for me

[janitor]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Archie Moore (at heavyweight),

Consider your limb splayed out in an uncomfortable position.

Moore actualy did quite a good number on the heavyweight rankings.

If you are critical of Rocky Marciano's competition as champion then you have Archie Moore to thank for it. He kept the upcoming generation of heavyweights in check.

[radianttwilight]

Consider your limb splayed out in an uncomfortable position.

Moore actualy did quite a good number on the heavyweight rankings.

If you are critical of Rocky Marciano's competition as champion then you have Archie Moore to thank for it. He kept the upcoming generation of heavyweights in check.

Admittedly it was a poor example - I was trying to find someone other than Dempsey to mention :D

[Russell]

Wilfred Benitez. His best win was against a Druan who was fighting way above his natural weight. His other two big wins were SD's and in 30 rounds against Ray and Tommy he won a combined 8 rounds at the most.

In case people missed it... I hate having posts so close to the bottom of a page.

Considering what he accomplished being lazy, and how young he did some of those things at, Benitez is pretty amazing.

[warchild]

Tony Ayala Jr. or Mark Breland.

Spot on.

Breland was touted as the next Sugar Ray Robinson, but after beating a string of no-hopers and winning a vacant title against a bogus opponent, was stopped in his first title defense. The thing that is the most sickening though, is that Breland was made the favorite in the rematch against Starling, and then was given a draw after being on the canvas something like seven times....one of the very worst decisions ever.

Tony Ayala is still highly touted to this day based on "what could have been"....well....never happened. Give it up guys. Ayala was a bully who's best assets in the ring were rage and intimidation....he was, at best, on the level of Lloyd Honeyghan or Ricardo Mayorga....and I seriously doubt if he was even close to that good.

[sthomas]

Bullshit.

Leonard beat Duran, you failed to mention that. You failed to mention he beat Duran twice. Also what you failed to mention is that he was the first guy to not only beat Thomas Hearns but first dude to stop Hearns too. You also forgot to mention yes he beat a past his prime Hagler, but moved up to Middleweight to do so. Leonard had also been coming off a layoff, that's very impressive whichever way you look at it.

So there it is, his resume is: Duran x2, Hearns, Hagler, and Wilfred Benitez. Overrated? Fuck off thn.



Guess I hit a nerve here!!!! I Didn't forget anything, I said he was great. His accomplishments speak for themsleves. In fact I think he's an alltime great, that does not mean he's beyond speculatation. The Haglar fight was an impressive upset, but not without controversy, and not on the scale of great upsets of all time. Just mentioned some ? marks in his career. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Addie]

Guess I hit a nerve here!!!! I Didn't forget anything, I said he was great. His accomplishments speak for themsleves. In fact I think he's an alltime great, that does not mean he's beyond speculatation. The Haglar fight was an impressive upset, but not without controversy, and not on the scale of great upsets of all time. Just mentioned some ? marks in his career. Nothing more, nothing less.

Sorry about seeming to aggressive in my response. I just read it back to myself, and I was obviously pissed at the time.

Still, Leonard is a top 10 ATG.

[Sizzle]

Stirring the pot again:

Ricky Hatton

:D :D

I don't think he's going to be rated very highly historically. I'd pick Zab Judah to stop him.

Roy Jones Jnr in my opinion, is the single most overrated fighter in history.

[JohnThomas1]

In case people missed it... I hate having posts so close to the bottom of a page.

Would you say the split verdict was fair vs Cervantes or are you boxrecing?

[Holmes' Jab]

Roy Jones Jnr in my opinion, is the single most overrated fighter in history.

Regarding an all-time P4P sense he may well be overrated (by some). Most overrated fighter in history, though? Nah, far from it.

[fists of fury]

no he not.

Who in ur opinion outboxed Foreman during his prime (he was not in his prime vs Young btw). Even Ali could not avoid his punches, and Ali had an extremely tough chin so he survided, many others would not.

He was close enough to be considered in his prime v Young. Maybe not at his peak, but surely still a prime Foreman.
Ali did a fine job in the first round (and maybe the 2nd too, I forget now) but it was the heat that forced him to adopt a different strategy in the end.

Let's put it this way - every time Foreman lost, prime or otherwise, he was outboxed.

[sthomas]

Sorry about seeming to aggressive in my response. I just read it back to myself, and I was obviously pissed at the time.

Still, Leonard is a top 10 ATG.


No problem. I appreciate your response. I was not trying to be a wise ass with Leonard. I too have him +/- top 10 ATG. The greater the fighter the harder he is to rank and that's what makes it interesting to me. Take SRR, considered by most as #1 ATG. I rank Ali #1 and SRR #2. So in my analysis SRR would be slightly overrated, but not by much.