A contribution to the Dempsey Wills debate

[janitor]

An extract from- Harry Wills a shot for glory denied

Between 1915 and 1927, Harry Wills was one of the best fighters, if not the best, in the heavyweight division. Yet, he never got his chance to fight for the heavyweight championship. Like other black fighters in the early part of the past century, Harry Wills was nothing but a footnote in boxing history. What denied Wills his place in history was the color of his skin. At a time in which the heavyweight championship was considered the purview of the Caucasian race, Harry Wills tilled in the heavyweight division hinterland. After Jack Johnson’s reign as champion ended, white promoters were determined not to allow blacks a whiff at the championship belt.

Jack Johnson’s personal conduct outside the ring scandalized White America as modesty and humility were not part of his make up. Jack Johnson essentially gave White America the middle finger as he violated every taboo of his time. Jack Johnson found white women more to his liking as he said, “Every colored lady I ever went with two-timed me, white girls didn’t.” And when he was not bedding white women, he was beating white heavyweights. He did not just beat his opponent; he taunted and tortured them before beating them. Ring Ladner described Jack Johnson as that “grinning Negro whose delight was in whipping purpose.” Johnson spent the last years of his championship reign outside the country and eventually lost his title to Jess Willard under the scorching Havana sun.

Harry Wills came into his own as a fighter after Johnson relinquished his title in 1915. A strong fighter and big for his era, Harry Wills used his size to an advantage. Black boxing historian Keith Smith told me in an EMAIL interview that Harry Wills skills, “would be considered good for his day. His strength was his asset. He could move other men around the ring as he pleased. He couldn’t understand why he never did receive a title shot. He was considered the top contender for almost seven years. No number one contender could be ignored for that long today--but the racial tones of that time simply would not allow such a bout”

Kevin Smith added that Wills was at his best during the late teens and the early 20’s. If Dempsey had fought Wills then, it would have been a great fight. Luis Firpo, a similar fighter to Wills, nearly ended Dempsey’s reign as champion when he knocked the Manassa Mauler out of the ring. Firpo’s eventual loss did not diminish the fact that a Wills-Dempsey bout in 1920 or 1921 would have been a splendid event. Dempsey was not invincible, as Tunney would later show. Wills developed his boxing skills by fighting several quality opponents including the great Sam Langford, Sam McVey, and Joe Jeannette.

Harry Wills will be remembered less for the fights that he did fight and more for the championship fight that never came. It is hard to truly judge Wills skills, since there are very little films of Wills fighting and we only have second hand reporting to depend upon. Much of this comes from white reporters, who were bias against the black heavyweight from the Big Easy. Racism denied Wills his shot at heavyweight glory. That is the fact. Kevin Smith stated, “His strength was his asset. He could move other men around the ring as he pleased, then put them in position and land as he saw fit. He was a master of holding and hitting (which in the teens was considered an art form and not frowned upon as much as it is today).” An athletic man for his size with one punch knock out power, Wills dominated most of the heavyweight division.

Smith considered Wills one of the best between 1915-1922. As he declared, “Besides Dempsey, and an old (but still great) Langford, I can't see anyone who would be considered a favorite over Wills.” In 1919, Jess Willard decided to put his championship up for grab. As the Great White Hope who ended the Johnson championship reign, Jess Willard was America’s hero. Having fought only once over the previous four years since defeating Jack Johnson, Willard was ripe for the picking. As with many fighters in the early part of the century, much debate centered about Willard’s boxing skills. Forced into exile due to the Mann Act, Jack Johnson wasn’t the same fighter as the boxer who massacred Jim Jefferies five years earlier. While Willard reputation was built on defeating Johnson, Willard beat an old Johnson and merely outlasted the older and less conditioned fighter. It is hard to truly judge Willard, so we only have second hand accounts gathered through the oral history of past boxing historians as well as newspaper accounts. Nat Fleischer considered Willard, “ one of the poorest of the heavyweight champions.... Jess was a slow moving pugilist who disliked training as much as he disliked the sport.” Seymour Rothman of the Toledo Blade provided another point of view when he wrote that Willard “was truly equipped to be a champion. He had a long left arm, which held off eager opponents. His right hand punches were devastating.” Willard’s size and endurance was his major asset.

Tex Rickard, the major boxing promoter from 1910 till his death in 1929, told his financial backers that he would never match Willard with a black fighter. Roger Kahn noted that for Rickard, the issue was as much about money as racism. Rickard told one of his financial backers, “If a ****** wins the championship, then the championship isn’t worth a nickel.” This reasoning eliminated both Sam Langford and Harry Wills. By this time, Langford was past his prime but Wills was at his peak as a fighter. His strength and durability would have made the Willard-Wills fight an interesting proposition. As Kevin Smith told me, “When you meet Sam Langford 18 times over and live to tell about it---you are a serious fighter. I guess it can best be said that Harry Wills was legit. He had size, speed, power, a bit of grace, and a great deal of experience.” Rickard denied Wills his first chance at the heavyweight title. While Kahn would write that Rickard’s major concern was making money, he added that with Rickard, “The issue was money, not prejudice. Or anyway money before prejudice.” Rickard’s racism played a role in denying Wills his shot at the championship throughout his career. (Rickard’s impact can’t be underestimated. Rickard’s control of the sport in the 20’s would make modern day promoters Don King and Bob Arum envious.)

After racism eliminated Wills from contention, it created Jack Dempsey’s date with destiny as he destroyed Willard over three rounds in a display of ferocity rarely seen in heavyweight fighting. As Dempsey ruled the heavyweight division, beating what was left of white contenders, Wills toiled unknown to the white boxing audience. With no more legitimate white heavyweights left, Jack Dempsey decided to take a break from fighting in 1923. The only contenders left was a former light heavyweight named Gene Tunney and Harry Wills. Wills, unfortunately, had another opponent- age.

Roger Kahn makes it clear in his autobiography that Jack Dempsey was willing to fight Harry Wills. Dempsey signed contracts to fight Wills on two different occasions but reneged when finances failed to materialize. Roger Kahn noted about Dempsey, “ Not awed by Wills, Dempsey was afraid of something else: boxing without getting paid.” Wills, six years older than Dempsey, was running out of time. Despite being the number one challenger for close to a decade, time was eroding Wills’ skills. The age factor started showing up when he lost to Sharkey and barely beating a raw Luis Firpo. Smith pointed out; “Wills was past his prime when he fought Sharkey and pretty much there against Firpo.” His loss to Sharkey and Basque contender Paolina Uzcudun in 1927 ended his chances for a title shot. In particular, his loss to Sharkey gave white promoters an excuse to end Wills quest for the title. His narrow victory over Firpo merely confirm in the minds of white writers and boxing analysts that Wills did not really deserve a chance at either Tunney or Dempsey. Grantland Rice summed up most reporters’ attitude when he wrote about Wills after the Firpo fight, “Wills is not a fighter in Dempsey’s class, not even close.” (Roger Kahn pointed out in his biography on Jack Dempsey that Tex Rickard had many of the nation’s sport writers on his payroll. They merely echoed his thoughts about the Wills’ inferiority as a boxer.)

While Dempsey never feared Wills, his managers did. Kevin Smith declared,” Many of the men who ran boxing thought that if Dempsey and Wills fought the latter would win and that is why the bout never took place. Wills was too much of a threat. “ Others are not as sure. Roger Kahn, Dempsey’s biographer, stated, “Harry Wills would have proved to be nothing more than another quick Dempsey knockout.”

What was lost in this debate is Harry Wills’ age. Harry Wills was six years older than Dempsey and as the 1920’s began, Wills was already past 30 years of age. Many of the fights that eliminated Wills from serious competition occurred after Wills turned 35. Dempsey always had the advantage of youth on his side. Wills’ best years were already behind him and if he proved to be an easy mark for Dempsey, his age would be the key factor. Kevin Smith summed up Wills dilemma when he told me that, “The fact that Harry was black is about the only reason that he did not get a title shot.”

[janitor]

COLOR LINE ERASED BY JACK DEMPSEY;

Champion Reverses Attitude and Announces He'll Take On Wills or Anybody Else.

SAYS HE NEEDS THE MONEY

Yearns for Action and Plenty of it and Hopes Brennan Match Will Be First of a Series. Will Be at the Ringside. Wants to Do a Lot of Boxing.ave ([Only registered and activated users can see links])

Jack Dempsey has erased the color line and stands ready to make a match with a colored fighter, either Harry Wills or another. This statement is contained in an announcement given out for publication yesterday by the International Sporting Club, which will stage the bout between Wills and Fred Fulton at the Newark Sportsmen's Club next Monday.

New York Times July 19, 1920, Monday
Section: Sports,


HARRY WILLS PUNISHMENT

According to vows taken by Jack Dempsey at his Saratoga camp, Harry Wills has eliminated himself as a championship possibility. Wills, through his manager, Paddy Mullins, attempted to stop the Firpo-Dempsey fight with injunction proceedings on the grounds that he had a prior right to meet the champion. Dempsey had asserted his intention of meeting Wills shortly. Now he will never meet him. Not until some promoter waves $400,000 or more in his vicinity.

Time magazine Monday, Sep. 17, 1923

[ChrisPontius]

Actions speak louder than words.

[janitor]

Actions speak louder than words.

I am trying to recreate the climate on the ground at the time for whatever that is worth.

[Mendoza]

While Dempsey never feared Wills, his managers did. Kevin Smith declared,” Many of the men who ran boxing thought that if Dempsey and Wills fought the latter would win and that is why the bout never took place. Wills was too much of a threat. “ Others are not as sure. Roger Kahn, Dempsey’s biographer, stated, “Harry Wills would have proved to be nothing more than another quick Dempsey knockout.”

Smith says many of the men who ran boxing thought that if Dempsey and Wills fought, Willis would win. I must ask who is he referring to here? Names with quotes in context would have greatly enhanced his point.

There is no doubt Wills deserved a title shot while Dempsey was champion. Blame politics or the funding if you will, but the thinking of the time was Dempsey did very well vs the taller / slower movers, ( Fred Fulton, Jess Willard, and Carl Morris ) and would have defeated Wills. I do think Wills was vulnerable to punchers, and had some questionable intangibles when the going got rough. Indeed, Wills was Ko'd by a nobody and quit in short order when he hurt his arm. Wills also fouled out in two fights, one of which happened when he was taking a beating from Jack Sharkey.

Wills had one more chance at a legacy, but declined multiple times to meet George Godfrey in the ring.

Perhaps Wills best opponents were Langford and McVey from 1914-1916. While Langford and MCvey were slightly past their prime, Wills pretty much split with them in these years. The difference is McVey and Langford scored KO wins over Wills. Wills did not knock either Langford or Mcvey out until they were well past their primes.

With the only film of Wills being when he was past his best vs Uzcudun, he is he's a bit hard to place.

[crippet]

Wills should retrospectively be listed as World Champion between 1923 and 1926 whilst Dempsey didn't fight but had the gall to call himself champion.

Wills then lost his belt after losing to Jack Sharkey in 1926 and Dempsey regained the belt in 1927 then lost it to Tunney in their 2nd fight.

This would be fair as there is no way on earth Jack Dempsey should be regarded as a champion during a 3 year period of non fighting!

[ChrisPontius]

I am trying to recreate the climate on the ground at the time for whatever that is worth.

Okay. I have to say i'm a bit sceptical, though. In the same climate of racism and color bar, there was also a black middleweight and welterweight champion of the world, as well as various black vs white fights, even where the black fighter got the decision.



By the way, whose writing was it?

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]Okay. I have to say i'm a bit sceptical, though. In the same climate of racism and color bar, there was also a black middleweight and welterweight champion of the world, as well as various black vs white fights, even where the black fighter got the decision.


The colour bar was always much stronger in the heavyweight divisions than in the lower weight clases. It is no coincidence that the first black world champion was a bantemweight.

By the way, whose writing was it?

Tom Donelson

[Mendoza]

janitor

The colour bar was always much stronger in the heavyweight divisions than in the lower weight clases. It is no coincidence that the first black world champion was a bantemweight.


While this quote seems true on the surface, I am not sure if 100% true. Jackson and Johnson were lineal and British champion’s pre 1911. Jeffries gave a four round match to a black fighter ( griffin ) while he was champion, and Johnson gave a title shot to Battling Jim Johnson while he was champion.

The true answer here could be middle weight, or light heavyweight as both division had to wait until the 1920's before a black champion emerged.

[Sonny's jab]

Dempsey should have fought Wills in 1920. He probably would have beat him, as Kearns always insisted, those big guys who rely largely on size, shoving and strength were the ones Dempsey thrived against.
But then maybe Wills has more going for him than I imagine, I do think he was a great fighter. And the point is he deserved a shot, which simply isn't debatable.

Dempsey was paid unprecedented amounts of money to defend against Georges Carpentier, it's no wonder then that he didn't need Wills, a much more dangerous fighter.

[klompton]

I dont know if Id be quoting either Kahn or Smith for this argument. Kahn is about as biased a Dempsey lover as one can be and Smith has his own agenda going towards Wills and other black fighters of the era. That being said I think Wills was deprived a shot at the title for two reasons, he was black, and he was at least an even odds bet to beat Dempsey making him too dangerous an opponent for Dempsey to risk his title against. Rickard and Kearns werent letting anyone with a shot at beating Dempsey near the title. It just so happened they didnt think Tunney had a shot either...

[Mendoza]

I dont know if Id be quoting either Kahn or Smith for this argument. Kahn is about as biased a Dempsey lover as one can be and Smith has his own agenda going towards Wills and other black fighters of the era. That being said I think Wills was deprived a shot at the title for two reasons, he was black, and he was at least an even odds bet to beat Dempsey making him too dangerous an opponent for Dempsey to risk his title against. Rickard and Kearns werent letting anyone with a shot at beating Dempsey near the title. It just so happened they didnt think Tunney had a shot either...

I'm not sure if Wills was more dangerous for Dempsey. Dempsey could pretty much KO whomever he can hit, and has a track record of doing very well vs bigger slower opponents. Wills was there to be hit, and he could be knocked out, as slightly past their prime versions of Langford and McVey proved. Wills also had some dog in him and would foul out or quit when the going got rough. Such a weakness becomes magnified when facing a hard-hitting aggressive guy in Dempsey. In addition, I think Tunney's smarts, style, superior durability, and never-ending stamina diminish Dempsey's punchers chance.

While Wills deserved a title shot, was the money ever as much as what Dempsey made for Tunney? Kearns and Rickard were very much into the prize money. Dempsey would fight whoever Rickard and Kearns lined up for him.

[janitor]

I dont know if Id be quoting either Kahn or Smith for this argument. Kahn is about as biased a Dempsey lover as one can be and Smith has his own agenda going towards Wills and other black fighters of the era. That being said I think Wills was deprived a shot at the title for two reasons, he was black, and he was at least an even odds bet to beat Dempsey making him too dangerous an opponent for Dempsey to risk his title against. Rickard and Kearns werent letting anyone with a shot at beating Dempsey near the title. It just so happened they didnt think Tunney had a shot either...

I wonder if perhaps Tommy Gibbons might have been a higher risk oponent on paper than Wills was. He at least presented the risk that he might outbox Dempsey.

[KSmith9116]

Smith says many of the men who ran boxing thought that if Dempsey and Wills fought, Willis would win. I must ask who is he referring to here? Names with quotes in context would have greatly enhanced his point.

Perhaps. Remember this was an "email" interview that, at the time, I did not know was for an article. I guess I could have expounded.

There is no doubt Wills deserved a title shot while Dempsey was champion. Blame politics or the funding if you will, but the thinking of the time was Dempsey did very well vs the taller / slower movers, ( Fred Fulton, Jess Willard, and Carl Morris ) and would have defeated Wills.

I must ask who you are referring to here? Names with quotes in context would greatly enhance your point. And Doc dosen't count.


I do think Wills was vulnerable to punchers, and had some questionable intangibles when the going got rough. Indeed, Wills was Ko'd by a nobody and quit in short order when he hurt his arm. Wills also fouled out in two fights, one of which happened when he was taking a beating from Jack Sharkey.


You never learn do you--or you never read what people post. I think we had this same discussion 5 years ago. Wills "broke" his wrist, or forearm, I can't remember which, in the Jim Johnson fight you always refer to. That is not simply hurting your arm. Who is this nobody you speak of --Kid Cotton? Do you know the particulars of that fight? When he was taking a beating from Sharkey(when he was far past it--you fail to mention) he fouled out--no doubt about it--sort of like Demspey did, except, Jack got to finish his combo with a left hook.
I find it funny that you take semi shots at Wills, insinuating that he wasn't that tough or shrunk when the going got tough----that is pretty funny. They guys entire career was pretty tough, and he had some long grueling battles with some very hard men. To jump to conclusions as you have, based on a few results you seem to have little info on, is just bad judgement on my opinion.

Wills had one more chance at a legacy, but declined multiple times to meet George Godfrey in the ring.
Another point you completely ill use. Godfrey challenged Dempsey, Tunney, Gibbons, etc as well--but they never fought him either. By the way, how is fighting Godfrey a legacy fight for Wills and not Dempsey or Tunney? Wills had nothing to gain by fighting George in 1925 and quite frankly, at this time, George had not real claim to a fight with Wills.

Perhaps Wills best opponents were Langford and McVey from 1914-1916. While Langford and MCvey were slightly past their prime, Wills pretty much split with them in these years. The difference is McVey and Langford scored KO wins over Wills. Wills did not knock either Langford or Mcvey out until they were well past their primes.

McVey knocked out Wills when?


With the only film of Wills being when he was past his best vs Uzcudun, he is he's a bit hard to place.
[/quote]

Its even more difficult when you haven't really studied anything about the man's career.

I maintain that Wills was a more experienced, bigger, stronger fighter than Dempsey, when both were in their prime, and he was a more proven quantity. This stuff about Dempsey feasting on big, slow guys is hog wash. Dempsey never fought anyone with the skills, size, power, quality experience and record that Wills brought to the table. Dempsey never beat anyone close to Sam Langford, even a past his prime Langford. The best fighter he fought, beat him twice. I just don't get the denial sometimes.

Dempsey and his people avoided Wills--because he knew there was a chance, a very good chance--that he could lose. That was what was going on.

[Dempsey1238]

7 years is pretty long to NOT fight your number 1 rank contender though. Marciano, Ali, Louis would not have stand for that type of stuff. They mostly knock down the rank number 1 as soon as they were able to climb the ranking.

[Cmoyle]

I believe the following article written by Jack Dempsey appeared in a 1963 issue of Ebony magazine. This is an excerpt of it that is included as a chapter in a 1963 book edited by two men from that magazine. The book is titled ‘White on Black’ and the title of the chapter is ‘Why Negroes Rule Boxing’. I thought it was worth sharing:

“From the inception of boxing in this country it has been dominated by men who developed out of struggle with life. Our first real heavyweight champion, Tom Molyneaux, was born a slave in Virginia and won his freedom with his fistic talent. Fighting as a freedman in New York he beat all challengers and earned the right to be called the first American heavyweight champion.

All of the great old-time Negro boxers were born under poor and depressing circumstances but rose above their environments to win acclaim wherever they fought. Peter Jackson, Sam Langford, George Dixon, Joe Gans, the immortal “Old Master,” and Jack Johnson all knew what it felt like to be up against the wall and cornered. Their bitter experiences were reflected in their superb endurance and their toughness of spirit. Their early poverty showed itself in the way they handled themselves as men and boxers.
I am personally indebted to a number of Negro boxers who worked as my sparring partners in the years when I was learning how to handle myself in a ring. When I was fighting I had many Negro sparring partners at my training camp. One of these, Bill Tate, became one of my best friends. Now living in Chicago, Illinois, he is one of the finest men I have ever known. Then there was Panama Joe Gans, a great and clever fighter, who taught me a lot. The Jamaica Kid, a very fine heavyweight, worked with me before the famous 1919 fight with Jess Willard. The Kid did a lot to get me into the superb condition that enabled me to beat Willard and win the world’s championship.

Sam Langford, one of the greatest of all heavyweights, is another Negro fighter who showed me some tricks and gave me the benefits of his vast experience. I worked with Old Sam in Chicago when I was a youngster. I never forgot what Langford taught me. He was cool, clever, scientific and a terrific hitter besides a fine man.
Battling Gee and Battling Jim Johnson, both Negroes were also on my payroll as sparring mates. I was a pretty rough customer in those days and my sparring partners had to be good and tough to stay with me. All of these men more than made the grade.

Many times I’ve had the charge hurled at me that I was prejudiced against Negroes. It is time this utter fiction was laid to rest once and for all. All my life I have believed that all men are basically brothers and that differences of color and religion are superficial. I hate prejudice. I hate discrimination. I hate intolerance. Boxing has been guilty of its share of color bias but I categorically deny that I ever practiced it either as a fighter, manager or promoter. The several Negro fighters who have been under my management will testify to my long-held belief in equality of treatment for all men, regardless of color.

Since I am on the subject of the color line in boxing, let me clear the air of the many rumors and suspicions and charges that have been moving around me as a result of my failure to fight Harry Wills. I have never run away from a fight in my life. Ever since I left public school to work in the Colorado mines, my credo has been to fight all comers and may the best man win. Harry Wills was a great fighter in his prime and I would have liked to have been matched with him. But it was not to be. The reasons had nothing to do with color prejudice on my part (which I have never held), nor fear of Wills fighting skill. I wanted to fight Wills badly, but Tex Rickard, who had the final say, never matched us.

Rickard was a Texan. He had a rough time of it out in San Francisco, California, after the Johnson-Jeffries fight which he promoted in Reno. The repercussions of that fight swirled about Rick’s head for a long time after the fight and he was a victim of ugly charges and a wicked smear campaign. This experience soured him on mixed fights for the heavyweight crown. As a result he was never anxious to promote a match between Wills and myself.

The facts clearly show that in 1926 I tried desperately to arrange a fight with Harry Wills but the deal collapsed when my guarantee was not forthcoming. Wills and I had signed to fight with a promoter named Floyd Fitzsimmons of Benton Harbor, Michigan. Wills, I understand, received fifty thousand dollars as his guarantee for signing the contract. I was to have received one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars in advance of the fight. As the date of the fight grew nearer and my money did not appear, I became anxious and asked Fitzsimmons what was the matter. He wired me to meet him in Dayton, Ohio, assuring me that he would have the money for me there. I met Fitzsimmons in Dayton who handed me a certified check for twenty-five thousand dollars and a promise to let me have the balance almost immediately. I balked at that, demanding the full amount right away. Fitzsimmons tried to placate me by calling the bank where he said he had deposited the money. The bank, unfortunately for Fitzsimmons, informed him that it did not have that much money on hand, that there wasn’t enough to cover the twenty-five thousand dollar check he had given me.

Furious, I returned the check to Fitzsimmons and told him the fight was off. Later, the Fitzsimmons syndicate financing the fight sued me for failure to honor a contract. I won the case.

When the Wills fight failed to materialize, Tex Rickard jumped back into the picture and matched me with Gene Tunney. The rest is history. And that is the real story behind the negotiations for the Harry Wills fight which never came off. I am sorry Wills and I never got a chance to square off in the ring. I am sure it would have been one beautiful scrap.”

[Unforgiven]

I believe the following article written by Jack Dempsey appeared in a 1963 issue of Ebony magazine. This is an excerpt of it that is included as a chapter in a 1963 book edited by two men from that magazine. The book is titled ‘White on Black’ and the title of the chapter is ‘Why Negroes Rule Boxing’. I thought it was worth sharing:

“From the inception of boxing in this country it has been dominated by men who developed out of struggle with life. Our first real heavyweight champion, Tom Molyneaux, was born a slave in Virginia and won his freedom with his fistic talent. Fighting as a freedman in New York he beat all challengers and earned the right to be called the first American heavyweight champion.

All of the great old-time Negro boxers were born under poor and depressing circumstances but rose above their environments to win acclaim wherever they fought. Peter Jackson, Sam Langford, George Dixon, Joe Gans, the immortal “Old Master,” and Jack Johnson all knew what it felt like to be up against the wall and cornered. Their bitter experiences were reflected in their superb endurance and their toughness of spirit. Their early poverty showed itself in the way they handled themselves as men and boxers.
I am personally indebted to a number of Negro boxers who worked as my sparring partners in the years when I was learning how to handle myself in a ring. When I was fighting I had many Negro sparring partners at my training camp. One of these, Bill Tate, became one of my best friends. Now living in Chicago, Illinois, he is one of the finest men I have ever known. Then there was Panama Joe Gans, a great and clever fighter, who taught me a lot. The Jamaica Kid, a very fine heavyweight, worked with me before the famous 1919 fight with Jess Willard. The Kid did a lot to get me into the superb condition that enabled me to beat Willard and win the world’s championship.

Sam Langford, one of the greatest of all heavyweights, is another Negro fighter who showed me some tricks and gave me the benefits of his vast experience. I worked with Old Sam in Chicago when I was a youngster. I never forgot what Langford taught me. He was cool, clever, scientific and a terrific hitter besides a fine man.
Battling Gee and Battling Jim Johnson, both Negroes were also on my payroll as sparring mates. I was a pretty rough customer in those days and my sparring partners had to be good and tough to stay with me. All of these men more than made the grade.

Many times I’ve had the charge hurled at me that I was prejudiced against Negroes. It is time this utter fiction was laid to rest once and for all. All my life I have believed that all men are basically brothers and that differences of color and religion are superficial. I hate prejudice. I hate discrimination. I hate intolerance. Boxing has been guilty of its share of color bias but I categorically deny that I ever practiced it either as a fighter, manager or promoter. The several Negro fighters who have been under my management will testify to my long-held belief in equality of treatment for all men, regardless of color.

Since I am on the subject of the color line in boxing, let me clear the air of the many rumors and suspicions and charges that have been moving around me as a result of my failure to fight Harry Wills. I have never run away from a fight in my life. Ever since I left public school to work in the Colorado mines, my credo has been to fight all comers and may the best man win. Harry Wills was a great fighter in his prime and I would have liked to have been matched with him. But it was not to be. The reasons had nothing to do with color prejudice on my part (which I have never held), nor fear of Wills fighting skill. I wanted to fight Wills badly, but Tex Rickard, who had the final say, never matched us.

Rickard was a Texan. He had a rough time of it out in San Francisco, California, after the Johnson-Jeffries fight which he promoted in Reno. The repercussions of that fight swirled about Rick’s head for a long time after the fight and he was a victim of ugly charges and a wicked smear campaign. This experience soured him on mixed fights for the heavyweight crown. As a result he was never anxious to promote a match between Wills and myself.

The facts clearly show that in 1926 I tried desperately to arrange a fight with Harry Wills but the deal collapsed when my guarantee was not forthcoming. Wills and I had signed to fight with a promoter named Floyd Fitzsimmons of Benton Harbor, Michigan. Wills, I understand, received fifty thousand dollars as his guarantee for signing the contract. I was to have received one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars in advance of the fight. As the date of the fight grew nearer and my money did not appear, I became anxious and asked Fitzsimmons what was the matter. He wired me to meet him in Dayton, Ohio, assuring me that he would have the money for me there. I met Fitzsimmons in Dayton who handed me a certified check for twenty-five thousand dollars and a promise to let me have the balance almost immediately. I balked at that, demanding the full amount right away. Fitzsimmons tried to placate me by calling the bank where he said he had deposited the money. The bank, unfortunately for Fitzsimmons, informed him that it did not have that much money on hand, that there wasn’t enough to cover the twenty-five thousand dollar check he had given me.

Furious, I returned the check to Fitzsimmons and told him the fight was off. Later, the Fitzsimmons syndicate financing the fight sued me for failure to honor a contract. I won the case.

When the Wills fight failed to materialize, Tex Rickard jumped back into the picture and matched me with Gene Tunney. The rest is history. And that is the real story behind the negotiations for the Harry Wills fight which never came off. I am sorry Wills and I never got a chance to square off in the ring. I am sure it would have been one beautiful scrap.”

:good

Interesting article, and having spoken to several people who knew or met Dempsey, and having read dozens more accounts of people's encounters with him, there's very little reason to believe he was a racist, and his welcoming manner and affinity with the common man (of any colour) is almost legendary.

Still, the hatred of Dempsey is so strong with many here, who not only don't rate him as a fighter, but will say anything to smear him, I'm sure the article won't make them change that opinion.

[McGrain]

I'd be astonished to hear that many of the posters on here deemed Dempsey a racist. I don't think that's true at all. I'd say most people know he's not.


Funny to see a professional kicking Mendoza's ass.

[Unforgiven]

I'd be astonished to hear that many of the posters on here deemed Dempsey a racist. I don't think that's true at all. I'd say most people know he's not.

Yeah, maybe I was getting muddled up with "rapist" (of the hired variety, specializing in virgins).
Something like that.
Anyway, in some way or another he was a wrong 'un.

[McGrain]

No, definitely not. I mean here it is in his own words, he's not a racist. Him saying here what most racists says proves that! ;)

[bman100]

The Fearless Harry Greb book notes that Dempsey disapproved of Greb putting his MW championship against Tiger Flowers because he was black. But there is no real way to know if Dempsey did really that.

I find it interesting Smith says when reviewing "Harry Wills' skills that he would be considered good for his day." Is there a reference here to him not being good in a later era like Louis or Ali's?

[Unforgiven]

No, definitely not. I mean here it is in his own words, he's not a racist. Him saying here what most racists says proves that! ;)

He wrote an article in the next month's Ebony entitled "My Days working in a brothel (Those virgins gave their consent)" :D

[Pachilles]

:good

Interesting article, and having spoken to several people who knew or met Dempsey, and having read dozens more accounts of people's encounters with him, there's very little reason to believe he was a racist, and his welcoming manner and affinity with the common man (of any colour) is almost legendary.

Still, the hatred of Dempsey is so strong with many here, who not only don't rate him as a fighter, but will say anything to smear him, I'm sure the article won't make them change that opinion.

What you and burt beinstock call "hatred" is not ranking him(possibly) the no.1 P4P GOAT

[burt bienstock]

I believe the following article written by Jack Dempsey appeared in a 1963 issue of Ebony magazine. This is an excerpt of it that is included as a chapter in a 1963 book edited by two men from that magazine. The book is titled ‘White on Black’ and the title of the chapter is ‘Why Negroes Rule Boxing’. I thought it was worth sharing:

“From the inception of boxing in this country it has been dominated by men who developed out of struggle with life. Our first real heavyweight champion, Tom Molyneaux, was born a slave in Virginia and won his freedom with his fistic talent. Fighting as a freedman in New York he beat all challengers and earned the right to be called the first American heavyweight champion.

All of the great old-time Negro boxers were born under poor and depressing circumstances but rose above their environments to win acclaim wherever they fought. Peter Jackson, Sam Langford, George Dixon, Joe Gans, the immortal “Old Master,” and Jack Johnson all knew what it felt like to be up against the wall and cornered. Their bitter experiences were reflected in their superb endurance and their toughness of spirit. Their early poverty showed itself in the way they handled themselves as men and boxers.
I am personally indebted to a number of Negro boxers who worked as my sparring partners in the years when I was learning how to handle myself in a ring. When I was fighting I had many Negro sparring partners at my training camp. One of these, Bill Tate, became one of my best friends. Now living in Chicago, Illinois, he is one of the finest men I have ever known. Then there was Panama Joe Gans, a great and clever fighter, who taught me a lot. The Jamaica Kid, a very fine heavyweight, worked with me before the famous 1919 fight with Jess Willard. The Kid did a lot to get me into the superb condition that enabled me to beat Willard and win the world’s championship.

Sam Langford, one of the greatest of all heavyweights, is another Negro fighter who showed me some tricks and gave me the benefits of his vast experience. I worked with Old Sam in Chicago when I was a youngster. I never forgot what Langford taught me. He was cool, clever, scientific and a terrific hitter besides a fine man.
Battling Gee and Battling Jim Johnson, both Negroes were also on my payroll as sparring mates. I was a pretty rough customer in those days and my sparring partners had to be good and tough to stay with me. All of these men more than made the grade.

Many times I’ve had the charge hurled at me that I was prejudiced against Negroes. It is time this utter fiction was laid to rest once and for all. All my life I have believed that all men are basically brothers and that differences of color and religion are superficial. I hate prejudice. I hate discrimination. I hate intolerance. Boxing has been guilty of its share of color bias but I categorically deny that I ever practiced it either as a fighter, manager or promoter. The several Negro fighters who have been under my management will testify to my long-held belief in equality of treatment for all men, regardless of color.

Since I am on the subject of the color line in boxing, let me clear the air of the many rumors and suspicions and charges that have been moving around me as a result of my failure to fight Harry Wills. I have never run away from a fight in my life. Ever since I left public school to work in the Colorado mines, my credo has been to fight all comers and may the best man win. Harry Wills was a great fighter in his prime and I would have liked to have been matched with him. But it was not to be. The reasons had nothing to do with color prejudice on my part (which I have never held), nor fear of Wills fighting skill. I wanted to fight Wills badly, but Tex Rickard, who had the final say, never matched us.

Rickard was a Texan. He had a rough time of it out in San Francisco, California, after the Johnson-Jeffries fight which he promoted in Reno. The repercussions of that fight swirled about Rick’s head for a long time after the fight and he was a victim of ugly charges and a wicked smear campaign. This experience soured him on mixed fights for the heavyweight crown. As a result he was never anxious to promote a match between Wills and myself.

The facts clearly show that in 1926 I tried desperately to arrange a fight with Harry Wills but the deal collapsed when my guarantee was not forthcoming. Wills and I had signed to fight with a promoter named Floyd Fitzsimmons of Benton Harbor, Michigan. Wills, I understand, received fifty thousand dollars as his guarantee for signing the contract. I was to have received one hundred and twenty-five thousand dollars in advance of the fight. As the date of the fight grew nearer and my money did not appear, I became anxious and asked Fitzsimmons what was the matter. He wired me to meet him in Dayton, Ohio, assuring me that he would have the money for me there. I met Fitzsimmons in Dayton who handed me a certified check for twenty-five thousand dollars and a promise to let me have the balance almost immediately. I balked at that, demanding the full amount right away. Fitzsimmons tried to placate me by calling the bank where he said he had deposited the money. The bank, unfortunately for Fitzsimmons, informed him that it did not have that much money on hand, that there wasn’t enough to cover the twenty-five thousand dollar check he had given me.

Furious, I returned the check to Fitzsimmons and told him the fight was off. Later, the Fitzsimmons syndicate financing the fight sued me for failure to honor a contract. I won the case.

When the Wills fight failed to materialize, Tex Rickard jumped back into the picture and matched me with Gene Tunney. The rest is history. And that is the real story behind the negotiations for the Harry Wills fight which never came off. I am sorry Wills and I never got a chance to square off in the ring. I am sure it would have been one beautiful scrap.”
C,thank you for this article by Dempsey,I have not read before. Hopefully this article will finally put to rest the notion that Dempsey was a "racist",and feared Harry Wills in the ring. Fallacy...Thanks again...:good

[McGrain]

I don't think that Dempsey was a racist, at all. Not by the standards of his day. I don't think so based upon what i've learned of the man. But the idea that him saying he wasn't in frigging 1960 is some kind of final point in a debate I do not believe the board is even having...seems a little strange, boys. A little strange.

[burt bienstock]

What you and burt beinstock call "hatred" is not ranking him(possibly) the no.1 P4P GOAT
P, give up your hatred of Jack Dempsey. Life is too short . And please don't
misrepresent my thoughts. If I defend Jack Dempsey it is because he was a
great natural force, and today's modern naysayers have little knowledge of
the past,and think boxing started when they started to first watch it. Nope
P, there WAS a yesterday.! Peace....

[PowerPuncher]

I don't think Dempsey was necessarily a racist, maybe he was somewhat as a younger man, maybe not, he seems like a good man

Either way he was either protected from the better boxers (Wills/Greb) or personally didn't fancy the fights. Both fights could have been made if he really wanted them and I don't buy Rickard had any social responsibility

[lufcrazy]

I genuinely think a man such as jack dempsey was not protected out of fear of loss by him nor his handlers.

I think he and they genuinely believed he'd beat anyone out there.

I do buy into the theory that the fight didn't happen because of racial concerns.

My main reason is that jack fought all the leading white heavyweights during his active years (1918-1923) and he came back to fight the two leading white contenders after his hollywood stint.

I do agree that from 23-26 it's completely fair to label wills as the premiere active hw but likewise I also think tunney immediately usurped everyone by defeating jack dempsey.

The colour line is such a black mark on the history of boxing and I am glad and relieved these great fighters were rewarded with a place in the hall.

[he grant]

Interesting article ... never read anywhere that Dempsey worked with Langford and would like to know more about it ... as far as trying to make a match w Wills in 1926, that's terrific but Wills was the number one contender from basically 1919 on ... it is simply an incomplete defense on Jack's part if you ask me ...

[Cmoyle]

"Interesting article ... never read anywhere that Dempsey worked with Langford and would like to know more about it ."

Actually, it's the first I've heard of that as well. It makes me wonder if it was written up in a Chicago newspaper at the time at all, or how many folks might have witnessed it. I never came across anything from Langford where he said anything about having worked with Dempsey at all. And, I also never came across any mention of it from Dempsey in any of his biographies before now either.

[mcvey]

I'd be astonished to hear that many of the posters on here deemed Dempsey a racist. I don't think that's true at all. I'd say most people know he's not.


Funny to see a professional kicking Mendoza's ass.
Mendoza is fond of quoting the likes of Smith ,the insinuation being he is a brother historian ,which he has referred to himself as in the past, this time Mr Smith has put him firmly in his place.

[PowerPuncher]

I genuinely think a man such as jack dempsey was not protected out of fear of loss by him nor his handlers.

I think he and they genuinely believed he'd beat anyone out there.

I do buy into the theory that the fight didn't happen because of racial concerns.

My main reason is that jack fought all the leading white heavyweights during his active years (1918-1923) and he came back to fight the two leading white contenders after his hollywood stint.

I do agree that from 23-26 it's completely fair to label wills as the premiere active hw but likewise I also think tunney immediately usurped everyone by defeating jack dempsey.

The colour line is such a black mark on the history of boxing and I am glad and relieved these great fighters were rewarded with a place in the hall.

No he didn't, Greb other than Dempsey was the leading HW, he dominated Gibbons, Brennan and Miske and Dempsey fought them instead of Greb. Greb was also constantly calling Dempsey out

[lufcrazy]

No he didn't, Greb other than Dempsey was the leading HW, he dominated Gibbons, Brennan and Miske and Dempsey fought them instead of Greb. Greb was also constantly calling Dempsey out

I wouldn't credit dempsey much if he beat greb therefore I won't hold it against him for not facing him.

[McGrain]

"Interesting article ... never read anywhere that Dempsey worked with Langford and would like to know more about it ."

Actually, it's the first I've heard of that as well. It makes me wonder if it was written up in a Chicago newspaper at the time at all, or how many folks might have witnessed it. I never came across anything from Langford where he said anything about having worked with Dempsey at all. And, I also never came across any mention of it from Dempsey in any of his biographies before now either.

I actually think it's bullshit, and did as soon as I read it. My guess was that Jack had a huge admiration for Langford (documented) but wanted to crystalise it for the article. Might not be, but that was my guess. Like you, i've never ever heard tell of it.

[PowerPuncher]

I wouldn't credit dempsey much if he beat greb therefore I won't hold it against him for not facing him.

It would have been a much better win than Gibbons, Miske, Brennan, Carpentier, Morris based on the fact Greb beat 3 of those men and performed better against common opponents. The only 2 you could argue had better HW legacies in the period were Fulton and Willard (Sharkey too but he came much later). And Fulton didn't perform nearly as well against Miske as Greb and Willard was 37 and inactive for 3years

Frankly if you wouldn't rate beating Greb as a very credible win, you must hold the rest of Dempsey's resume in pretty low esteem

Dempsey was a marketing phenomenon and maybe the original 'cherry picker'. According to Klompton, who's the most researched poster on the era, Firpo and Carpentier were hyped up with the sole purpose of facing Dempsey. I'm not saying Dempsey was a hype job but he was protected from the best contenders, who knows he may have beaten them but he didn't prove he would or could have. If you can make millions taking easy fights it makes more sense to the boxer than risking it all and getting brain damaged or humiliated versus a much tougher fighter, for perhaps less money.

[janitor]

I actually think it's bullshit, and did as soon as I read it. My guess was that Jack had a huge admiration for Langford (documented) but wanted to crystalise it for the article. Might not be, but that was my guess. Like you, i've never ever heard tell of it.

It is known that Dempsey gave money to Sam Langford when the latter was old and blind.

I get the idea that Langford was the fighter he always wished he was.

[McGrain]

As I understand it Dempsey did that for quite a few fighters, and not all of them famous names.

He was a good guy. And that whole Holywood thing never really struck me as being him.

[PowerPuncher]

It is known that Dempsey gave money to Sam Langford when the latter was old and blind.

I get the idea that Langford was the fighter he always wished he was.

That's a nice story, not sure I agree with the latter though, I haven't seen enough of Langford to make a judgement on who I'd rank as flat out better. Dempsey was simply loaded and helped his common man

[janitor]

That's a nice story, not sure I agree with the latter though, I haven't seen enough of Langford to make a judgement on who I'd rank as flat out better. Dempsey was simply loaded and helped his common man

I am not saying that Langford was better, so much as that he was the fighter Dempsey copied and admiored.

[lufcrazy]

It would have been a much better win than Gibbons, Miske, Brennan, Carpentier, Morris based on the fact Greb beat 3 of those men and performed better against common opponents. The only 2 you could argue had better HW legacies in the period were Fulton and Willard (Sharkey too but he came much later). And Fulton didn't perform nearly as well against Miske as Greb and Willard was 37 and inactive for 3years

Frankly if you wouldn't rate beating Greb as a very credible win, you must hold the rest of Dempsey's resume in pretty low esteem

Dempsey was a marketing phenomenon and maybe the original 'cherry picker'. According to Klompton, who's the most researched poster on the era, Firpo and Carpentier were hyped up with the sole purpose of facing Dempsey. I'm not saying Dempsey was a hype job but he was protected from the best contenders, who knows he may have beaten them but he didn't prove he would or could have. If you can make millions taking easy fights it makes more sense to the boxer than risking it all and getting brain damaged or humiliated versus a much tougher fighter, for perhaps less money.

It's the whole weight issue. Greb was a mw and a small lhw it's amazing he beat these hw's but it's hard for me to think of him as a hw.

Consider the hw scene 8 years ago, toney dominated ruiz, holyfield and peter. But a victory over toney at hw doesn't really mean much imo.

I see it as low risk low reward tbh. It's better imo beating the natural hw that made the mw's seen great.

I'm not saying a win is worthless but I don't see it as particularly legacy enhancing. Not like a win over wills and maybe even langford would be.

I see dempsey as borderline top ten along with liston.

[PowerPuncher]

It's the whole weight issue. Greb was a mw and a small lhw it's amazing he beat these hw's but it's hard for me to think of him as a hw.

Consider the hw scene 8 years ago, toney dominated ruiz, holyfield and peter. But a victory over toney at hw doesn't really mean much imo.

I see it as low risk low reward tbh. It's better imo beating the natural hw that made the mw's seen great.

I'm not saying a win is worthless but I don't see it as particularly legacy enhancing. Not like a win over wills and maybe even langford would be.

I see dempsey as borderline top ten along with liston.

Greb weighed 170lbs for a few of his fights and not just no1 at MW but no1 at LHW, he wasn't much smaller than Dempsey really about 15-20lbs in it, he was the same size as Gibbons/Carpetier pretty much and many consider Gibbons to be Dempsey's best win. He'd be the same size as Fitz/Loughran, bigger than Walker - and men who beat them got their due credit. Lets not forget Charles, Moore, Patterson - all ex MWs and the best wins for Marciano/Walcott/Liston

But anyway the question is - why didn't the fight happen? Greb was desperate for this fight before and after Dempsey was champ. Personally I think his management and Dempsey just didn't fancy the trickier better opponents, he may have possibly beat them, but why bother when you can make millions without fighting them?

[SonnyListonsJab]

Actions speak louder than words.


:good

[lufcrazy]

Greb weighed 170lbs for a few of his fights and not just no1 at MW but no1 at LHW, he wasn't much smaller than Dempsey really about 15-20lbs in it, he was the same size as Gibbons/Carpetier pretty much and many consider Gibbons to be Dempsey's best win. He'd be the same size as Fitz/Loughran, bigger than Walker - and men who beat them got their due credit. Lets not forget Charles, Moore, Patterson - all ex MWs and the best wins for Marciano/Walcott/Liston

But anyway the question is - why didn't the fight happen? Greb was desperate for this fight before and after Dempsey was champ. Personally I think his management and Dempsey just didn't fancy the trickier better opponents, he may have possibly beat them, but why bother when you can make millions without fighting them?

I have no idea why the fight didn't happen, i'm just saying I have a hard time calling greb a hw.

[he grant]

I understand that Greb wanted a Dempsey fight and I can see Kearns wanting no part of it as Greb could have been a terrible spoiler but fail to see how Greb, who had to fight for his life v.s. Norfolk was actually going to survive fiften rounds with a prime Dempsey .. the rub to me is that on one hand we hear how Greb feasted on heavyweights but when his bouts with Norfolk come up we hear "well what do you expect ? He gave up 15 pounds." Well he'd be giving up close to twenty of solid muscle against a prime Dempsey ... go figure ...

[PowerPuncher]

I understand that Greb wanted a Dempsey fight and I can see Kearns wanting no part of it as Greb could have been a terrible spoiler but fail to see how Greb, who had to fight for his life v.s. Norfolk was actually going to survive fiften rounds with a prime Dempsey .. the rub to me is that on one hand we hear how Greb feasted on heavyweights but when his bouts with Norfolk come up we hear "well what do you expect ? He gave up 15 pounds." Well he'd be giving up close to twenty of solid muscle against a prime Dempsey ... go figure ...

Tunney went life and death with MW Greb how is he going to handle Dempsey...oh no wait.....and Greb beat him anyway

[burt bienstock]

I understand that Greb wanted a Dempsey fight and I can see Kearns wanting no part of it as Greb could have been a terrible spoiler but fail to see how Greb, who had to fight for his life v.s. Norfolk was actually going to survive fiften rounds with a prime Dempsey .. the rub to me is that on one hand we hear how Greb feasted on heavyweights but when his bouts with Norfolk come up we hear "well what do you expect ? He gave up 15 pounds." Well he'd be giving up close to twenty of solid muscle against a prime Dempsey ... go figure ...
The fact that we are even discussing the 5ft8",160 pound Greb with Jack Dempsey is a feather in Greb's cap. The guy was a terror with the middleweights and lightheavyweights of his time, and that is good enough for me....No fighter in history blended great hand and foot speed,alongst
sheer toughness and amazing stamina,with great whiskers in one package.No one...
Whether he would have avoided a prime 187 pound Jack Dempsey for 15 rounds,can never be answered, though I doubt it strongly. But with that
"little seven year itch " Greb, who knows.?:good

[mcvey]

It is known that Dempsey gave money to Sam Langford when the latter was old and blind.

I get the idea that Langford was the fighter he always wished he was.
Dempsey also helped out sparring partners Godfrey, and Jamaica Kid financially, there are a few photos of Jack with Wills they got along ok.

[lufcrazy]

Here's the question I guess, if in 24 dempsey ko's both greb and wills, how does that improve his legacy?

[mcvey]

Tunney went life and death with MW Greb how is he going to handle Dempsey...oh no wait.....and Greb beat him anyway
In their last fight ,when Tunney scaled 181lbs,he gave Greb a beating.
Greb is for me, probably the no 1 p4p ever ,but I don't see him survivng 15rds with Dempsey.

[Bokaj]

Here's the question I guess, if in 24 dempsey ko's both greb and wills, how does that improve his legacy?

A lot. That would mean he dominated the HW division for at least five years and put in him the tier below Ali and Louis IMO.

[lufcrazy]

A lot. That would mean he dominated the HW division for at least five years and put in him the tier below Ali and Louis IMO.

yeah an extra active year would be favourable and a win over wills puts him as a guy who cleared out his division. his win over greb apparently removes some criticism over 100 years later.

I think I have him 8 or 9 depending on whether I like Liston's body of work atbthe time i make a list.

I feel the lack of fighting wills hurts him a lot more but it's slightly placated by beating sharkey and signing to face wills himself.

[Bokaj]

yeah an extra active year would be favourable and a win over wills puts him as a guy who cleared out his division. his win over greb apparently removes some criticism over 100 years later.

I think I have him 8 or 9 depending on whether I like Liston's body of work atbthe time i make a list.

I feel the lack of fighting wills hurts him a lot more but it's slightly placated by beating sharkey and signing to face wills himself.

Such things have zero bearing in my book. It's about who you beat, not who you signed to fight. Even if Hopkins had signed a deal that later fell through for fighting Jones in 2001, it wouldn't make any difference in my ranking of him. A win over Jones in 2001 on the other hand...

[Bokaj]

yeah an extra active year would be favourable and a win over wills puts him as a guy who cleared out his division. his win over greb apparently removes some criticism over 100 years later.

I think I have him 8 or 9 depending on whether I like Liston's body of work atbthe time i make a list.

I feel he's absolutely comparable to Liston in terms of greatness. I'd probably have Tyson a clear notch ahead, though.

[lufcrazy]

Such things have zero bearing in my book. It's about who you beat, not who you signed to fight. Even if Hopkins had signed a deal that later fell through for fighting Jones in 2001, it wouldn't make any difference in my ranking of him. A win over Jones in 2001 on the other hand...

no but avoiding a fighter should really be held against you imo.

take bradley/khan now. it gets held against bradley that he so blatantly ducked khan. a fight falling through is one thing, but ducking a fighter is another, in my book.

[lufcrazy]

I feel he's absolutely comparable to Liston in terms of greatness. I'd probably have Tyson a clear notch ahead, though.

tyson is growing on me atm, I have him sandwiched between holyfield and frazier but I'm beginning to question my placement of him. I think between ali and lewis, tyson was the most dominant champ so I'm considering replacing him.

also considering my ranking of Wlad, I recently moved him above sullivan and jeffries so he was 1 behing smoking joe. I think provided he beats a top 10 opponent next year he'll move level with tyson and holy.

[Bokaj]

no but avoiding a fighter should really be held against you imo.

take bradley/khan now. it gets held against bradley that he so blatantly ducked khan. a fight falling through is one thing, but ducking a fighter is another, in my book.

I don't go into that. I only look at who you beat, who you lost to and how you did it.

[lufcrazy]

I don't go into that. I only look at who you beat, who you lost to and how you did it.

fair enough, I like to see a fighter make atleast an attempt to fight the best around, especially a high profile fight like khan/bradley, bowe/lewis etc. ducking is almost as bad as losing imo.

[Bokaj]

tyson is growing on me atm, I have him sandwiched between holyfield and frazier but I'm beginning to question my placement of him. I think between ali and lewis, tyson was the most dominant champ so I'm considering replacing him.

Dempsey, Liston and Tyson all smashed through the division in an impressive manner, but Tyson was both arguably more dominant and has a deeper list of wins (he steamrolled a good number of contenders even after losing to Douglas). What hurts him is mainly the losses to Douglas and Holy.

[Bokaj]

fair enough, I like to see a fighter make atleast an attempt to fight the best around, especially a high profile fight like khan/bradley, bowe/lewis etc. ducking is almost as bad as losing imo.

I also like that, but that influences my view of him as a person, not a fighter.

[lufcrazy]

Dempsey, Liston and Tyson all smashed through the division in an impressive manner, but Tyson was both arguably more dominant and has a deeper list of wins (he steamrolled a good number of contenders even after losing to Douglas). What hurts him is mainly the losses to Douglas and Holy.

for me, the loss to holyfield doesn't hinder his legacy at all, just places a ceiling on it. the loss to douglas is pretty bad though and beating tucker and salvarese doesn't quite make up for not avenging and beating douglas himself.

[lufcrazy]

I also like that, but that influences my view of him as a person, not a fighter.

for me, it says something about h2h skills. bradley ducking khan tells me he thinks khan would beat him and if I'm in a position where I have to split to evenly matched fighters, and one ducked the other that's the tie break, just as a fight between the two would be.

[Bokaj]

for me, it says something about h2h skills. bradley ducking khan tells me he thinks khan would beat him and if I'm in a position where I have to split to evenly matched fighters, and one ducked the other that's the tie break, just as a fight between the two would be.

Then what do you make of Dempsey's people thinking Wills would beat him?

[lufcrazy]

Then what do you make of Dempsey's people thinking Wills would beat him?

as I said, dempsey signing a contract and showing a will to fight him means I don't call it a duck. so it doesn't give him any negative points in a H2h sense, which means we can go to more traditional comparisons like common opponents and style (very difficult in the case of wills).

if say history had played out, but dempsey had made no effort to ever fight wills and had blatantly refused what the people wanted (as bowe did with lewis when he thrrew his belt in the trash) combined with a repeated calling out by wills, then I'd give Wills the edge. which could effect my overall rating because these two are pretty similar so a usurp by wills could be enough to swap place. Hard to give too much thought to a hypothetical scenario though.

[Hookie]

COLOR LINE ERASED BY JACK DEMPSEY;


HARRY WILLS PUNISHMENT

According to vows taken by Jack Dempsey at his Saratoga camp, Harry Wills has eliminated himself as a championship possibility. Wills, through his manager, Paddy Mullins, attempted to stop the Firpo-Dempsey fight with injunction proceedings on the grounds that he had a prior right to meet the champion. Dempsey had asserted his intention of meeting Wills shortly. Now he will never meet him. Not until some promoter waves $400,000 or more in his vicinity.

Time magazine Monday, Sep. 17, 1923

...looks like they were looking for any excuse to get out of the fight, we will never know for sure. Wills, Langford, McVey, Jeanette, and others get plenty of respect on these forums though.

[lufcrazy]

...Wills, Langford, McVey, Jeanette, and others get plenty of respect on these forums though.

in a history littered with black marks, the respect given to these fighters is a shining light.

[PowerPuncher]

as I said, dempsey signing a contract and showing a will to fight him means I don't call it a duck. so it doesn't give him any negative points in a H2h sense, .

Allot of people feel this was a media stunt, I think Klompton for 1 said as much - but would appreciate his input

[PowerPuncher]

for me, it says something about h2h skills. bradley ducking khan tells me he thinks khan would beat him and if I'm in a position where I have to split to evenly matched fighters, and one ducked the other that's the tie break, just as a fight between the two would be.

Not really though, Calzaghe nearly ducked Lacy but his father made him take the fight. Bradley also has had mangerial issues

[lufcrazy]

Not really though, Calzaghe nearly ducked Lacy but his father made him take the fight. Bradley also has had mangerial issues

but he didn't duck him and he did batter him.

bradley can talk all he wants, he turned khan down because he was afraid a loss would take him out of the sweepstakes.

a duck is almost as bad as a loss between two equally matched opponents imo.

[lufcrazy]

Allot of people feel this was a media stunt, I think Klompton for 1 said as much - but would appreciate his input

yes the more input/research from them times the better to allow for a clearer picture.

that's one of the conflicts with my ranking of dempsey.

in 1950 he was viewed as the goat and I'm not entirely sure why, unless criteria is different now.

[Bokaj]

Allot of people feel this was a media stunt, I think Klompton for 1 said as much - but would appreciate his input

I think so too. The thought that Wills would turn down a serious offer to fight for the title seems very far fetched. They probably gave him an offer he couldn't accept just to make it look better.

[Bokaj]

but he didn't duck him and he did batter him.

bradley can talk all he wants, he turned khan down because he was afraid a loss would take him out of the sweepstakes.

a duck is almost as bad as a loss between two equally matched opponents imo.

What say you then about Robinson turning down a good offer (career best up to that point) to fight Burley?

[lufcrazy]

What say you then about Robinson turning down a good offer (career best up to that point) to fight Burley?

yeah, robinson ducked burley.

however when ranking these two they aren't close to each other imo, Robinson has a superior resume and a superior skillset.

as I said, it's more of a tie break than a definitive ranking tool.

[Bokaj]

yeah, robinson ducked burley.

however when ranking these two they aren't close to each other imo, Robinson has a superior resume and a superior skillset.

as I said, it's more of a tie break than a definitive ranking tool.

Fair enough.

[lufcrazy]

Fair enough.

:good