Sonny Liston v. Larry Holmes

[SteveO]

15 rounds (if that matters).

[Longhhorn71]

15 rounds (if that matters).

Liston's jab counters Larry's jab.

Liston can hurt Holmes, Holmes can't hurt Liston.

Liston by split decision.

[Sardu]

Holmes I believe was a more fundamentally sound fighter than Ali. He had a harder jab and was a more powerful puncher. However, he was not as athletically gifted as Ali, did not have as good a chin as Ali, not was he as fast as Ali. You cannot quantify the gifts that Ali had. Having said that, I think this is an awesome matchup. In their respective, absolute primes I would take Liston. His jab was on par with Holmes and Holmes could be hit.

Liston by decision

[rendog67]

liston win but i think a peak holmes takes him the distance

[janitor]

My instinct is that Liston would close the show at some point.

Liston was a virtuoso ring general. He thought on his feet. My guess is that he would put Holmes in trouble and close the deal.

[C. M. Clay II]

Liston late knockout.

[ChrisPontius]

Very interesting fight. Holmes is a bit susceptible to big right hands, but Liston's weakness seemed speed. Both would trouble each other a lot. I think much depends on how calm Holmes' approach is. When he knew he was in with a dangerous puncher (Cooney), he played it safe from a distance, based on speed and footwork. I think he'd do the same against Liston and befuddle him. How does Liston's heart hold up? We know Holmes can dig deep, deep and pull out the win.

Liston quit rather easily on his stool after 6 light rounds, right after his most impressive ring perfomance against Patterson. Liston may have the longer wingspan, but i don't think their actual reach will differ by much. Williams, who stood 6'3 80" on film has longer arms than Liston, so it's not implausible that Holmes has at least equal or a longer reach. On top of that, Holmes has top speed and great timing, which is at least as important; especially for the jab.

I would go with Holmes by decision.

[Quick Cash]

I believe I've already posted my prediction regarding this particular match-up. I got Holmes winning by close-- likely contested-- decision.

Anytime Holmes lags, falls back or hesitates, Liston's jab would ram hard into his face or chest area. By the end of 15, Larry would probably appear the worse from wear, but the verdict should go his way.

The reason I don't see him cruising to victory like Ali cruised against a poorly-conditioned Liston is speed and variety. While Holmes was a multi-lateral ring mover (something Ali rarely was), he was not as speedy or as creative. He was textbook. You only needed to go one direction against Liston anyway and that was to the left and fast.

[Holmes' Jab]

Holmes, split decision. After recovering from a KD (maybe two).

[janitor]

A question to those picking Holmes????????????

What strategy should Liston use to maximise his chances??????????

[Holmes' Jab]

Larry has superior fighting heart, better speed, a slight edge in durability and a jab on a par with Liston's. Skill wise close call, although Liston has that edge in power.

I think Liston should try and lure Holmes into traps and an out-and-out slugfest (deviate him from his gameplan, break his rythmn etc), although Holmes was immensely tough and never a quitter he didn't quite fave anybody with Listons strength and brutality (especially midrange in close).

I think extremely wary of Liston's greatness in this regard that Larry would box safely (not without risk of course) on the outside behind the jab with minimal risk, move out of range from Liston big right hand and would do enough eck out a narrow decision. Tough fight for both.

[janitor]

Larry has superior fighting heart, better speed, a slight edge in durability and a jab on a par with Liston's. Skill wise close call, although Liston has that edge in power.

I think Liston should try and lure Holmes into traps and an out-and-out slugfest (deviate him from his gameplan, break his rythmn etc), although Holmes was immensely tough and never a quitter he didn't quite fave anybody with Listons strength and brutality (especially midrange in close).

I think extremely wary of Liston's greatness in this regard that Larry would box safely (not without risk of course) on the outside behind the jab with minimal risk, move out of range from Liston big right hand and would do enough eck out a narrow decision. Tough fight for both.

I think the key to wining it for Liston would be to go to the body at range while cutting down the ring. If he is suficiently dogged in doing this he might eventualy grind Holmes down and close the deal.

He might have to conceed some early rounds in order to win.

[Holmes' Jab]

I think the key to wining it for Liston would be to go to the body at range while cutting down the ring. If he is suficiently dogged in doing this he might eventualy grind Holmes down and close the deal.

He might have to conceed some early rounds in order to win.


Fair post. The possibility certainly isn't to be discounted.

[Quick Cash]

I think the key to wining it for Liston would be to go to the body at range while cutting down the ring. If he is suficiently dogged in doing this he might eventualy grind Holmes down and close the deal.

He might have to conceed some early rounds in order to win.

Exactly what I was about to type although I have many misgivings regarding Sonny's powers of 'cutting off the ring'. If he gets in a good amount of body work, Holmes would be in far worse form than even the Norton fight.

[DamonD]

It's quite facinating (though not a bad thing, of course) to see how Liston's reputation has improved so much over the years.
You could say the same about Larry, but it's been such a renaissance for Liston over time.

[Seamus]

Holmes by stoppage. A prime Holmes is far and away better than the Clay who fought the legitimate fight with Liston. If Liston could not have handled the skittish, green Clay, he would be no match for the late-70's Holmes. This one would be as one-sided as they come with Liston quiting or his corner taking mercy upon him and stopping it.

[abraq]

I remember reading an article in Ring Magazine long away about how this fight would heve turned out. The article was about how Larry Holmes would have done against the past greats.

If I remember correctly, Muhammad Ali was the only past great clearly picked to beat a prime Larry Holmes. None of the others were favoured to beat a prime Holmes. Of course, it was opined that some of them would have ran Larry close and a victory for him was not at all certain.

Sonny Liston was amongst those thought to have a chance against Holmes, though, as already stated, Holmes was given the edge.

Personally, I think that Liston would have won. Possibly by late kayo.

The writer of the article mentioned that it would be a ferocious fight. I heartily agree.

[Seamus]

It's quite facinating (though not a bad thing, of course) to see how Liston's reputation has improved so much over the years.
You could say the same about Larry, but it's been such a renaissance for Liston over time.

You could say it's fashionable revisionism.

Probably executed by the same folks who wear Che Guevara t-shirts.

[ChrisPontius]

I think the key to wining it for Liston would be to go to the body at range while cutting down the ring. If he is suficiently dogged in doing this he might eventualy grind Holmes down and close the deal.

He might have to conceed some early rounds in order to win.

Actually, i think that's not the way to win for Liston. Liston is going to need the early rounds. Holmes had outstanding good stamina and kept up a high workrate in the later round; Liston never even went 15 and only went 12 rounds, once.

[mr. magoo]

On paper this sounds like a good fight, and it sounds particularly well matched when people say things like " Liston would have outreached Holmes, and was the closest thing to a brother in terms of great left jabs", or " Holmes was way to suseptible to the right hand." The reality, however is that Liston simply did not know how to deal with men who could stick and move the way that fighters like Ali or Holmes could. While Holmes was not as a great of a boxer as Ali in his PRIME, he was probably as good or better than a 1964 version of Cassius Clay who was still a work in progress. Granted Liston was not as good in 1964 as he was in say 1960, but the difference was not so vast to where I'd pick him to beat a 1978-1981 Larry Holmes. Larry's chin, style, stamina, heart, size, strength and everything else would spell out bad news for Sonny.

Holmes by TKO between rounds 11-13.

[janitor]

Actually, i think that's not the way to win for Liston. Liston is going to need the early rounds. Holmes had outstanding good stamina and kept up a high workrate in the later round; Liston never even went 15 and only went 12 rounds, once.

So what would your plan be as Listons trainer?

[ChrisPontius]

So what would your plan be as Listons trainer?
In preparation of the fight, have him spar with a speedy, tall light heavyweight... someone like Richard Hall. Work on cornering his opponent because he was very poor at that.


During the fight, i'd instruct him to try to corner Holmes or have him on the ropes, and when he's there, throw whatever he can and try to invite Holmes to a slugfest. Focus a little bit more on the right hand than on the left hook but obviously keep a variety on offense as well as the uppercut. Remind him to use his head movement because he got a little lazy on that later in fights (for instance the Machen or Ali fights).

Try working the jab, although i'd expect him to lose the battle of the jabs because Holmes is faster, taller and has at least as good timing as well as better stamina. Of course, you can't know for sure. I didn't expect Kessler's jab to be so ineffective against Calzaghe before the fight.


But to put it short, i think Liston's best chance is to make Holmes fight (and he did so on quite a few occasions when hurt), instead of to oblige to a pure boxing match.




What about you?