Tyson vs Marciano in their respective primes

[Bokaj]

This thread has probably been done earlier, but I haven't seen it so I'm interested in your views.

Tyson had superior speed, power and technique, while Marciano was a superior in-fighter and had vastly superior stamina and will IMO.

My take is that Rocky would win if he could take it into the later rounds, but I don't think he would succeed with that. Surely, a guy who was floored early by both Walcott and Moore would be KO'd or TKO'd by such a vicious puncher and finisher that Tyson was in his prime. If he could take into the later rounds, though, I think he would eventually wear Tyson down and inflict some bad damage in close on his way to a KO-win. At least if it was over 15 rounds.

Your views?

[sthomas]

Marciano weathers the early storm and KO's Tyson around 10 rounds. Marciano had a very underrated unorthodox defense.

[Sardu]

Regardless of Marciano's obviously higher historical standing, I cannot see him, at about 185lbs, defeating the best Tyson. Louis was old and used up and not crisp when he met the Rock in 1951. I use Louis as an example because be was about 218lbs to Rocky's 187lbs. in that fight. Tyson was about he same weight as that Louis, but more compact and explosive as well as being superfast. Think of Tyson as a prime Dempsey only stronger, just as fast, and an event more powerful puncher. If anyone can stop the granite chinned Marciano it's Tyson. But I'll instead predict that Tyson will bust up Marciano, knock him down a couple of times and the referee will be wise and not let the slaughter continue. Tyson has too many weapons at his peak.

Tyson TKO 6 Marciano

[sthomas]

If a prime Marciano and Tyson fought in 1989, Rocky would have weighed about 210-215. He deliberately kept his weight down for the competition of the day.

[Sardu]

If a prime Marciano and Tyson fought in 1989, Rocky would have weighed about 210-215. He deliberately kept his weight down for the competition of the day.

Sorry, I didn't know it was a hypothetical situation - my bad. I think Rocky would be woefully out of shape at the weights you are stating. Tyson was similar to Marciano in height but seemed to have a much larger upper body. They both had thick legs. With modern nutrition, supplements, steroids, etc. Marciano could nowadays put on functional bulk ala Holyfield. But I think what he did worked just fine. I don't believe one can successfully predict what would happen if we took an athlete from yesteryear and then transport him into a different era. I think you are better off taking the prime Marciano of the early 1950's, as is, against the prime Tyson of the late 80's, as is, IMO. That seems more logical I think.

[PhillyPhan69]

Marciano in 5.

[Jase2483]

maybe i'm smoking crack - but I just dont get rocky.....and i've watched countless of his fights.

Yea he could take punishment, yea he never lost, yea he was hard to knock down....I dont think he could have handled tyson who was faster, stronger, out-weighed him, and above and beyond that was BY FAR A BETTER RING TACTICIAN......tyson's technical ability was way ahead of rocky amrciano in my opinion.

[Sonny's jab]

People in his own time didn't "get Rocky" either. He had a crude, ugly, awkward style. Many "refined" boxers tried to exploit this, but they just couldn't figure him out once the bell rang, they left the ring not only hurting but often admitting that he "out-thought" them in there, as well as having out-fought them.

Marciano didn't care who he was fighting, he liked to know nothing about his opponents, because he didn't want expect anything in particular, he was prepared for anything and everything.

I think his low-crouching uneven tempo fighting, with unorthodox punching from weird angles, would be a nightmare for Tyson.

[janitor]

It would be a draw.

There now can we please not embark on this merry go round yet another time.

[Jase2483]

People in his own time didn't "get Rocky" either. He had a crude, ugly, awkward style. Many "refined" boxers tried to exploit this, but they just couldn't figure him out once the bell rang, they left the ring not only hurting but often admitting that he "out-thought" them in there, as well as having out-fought them.

Marciano didn't care who he was fighting, he liked to know nothing about his opponents, because he didn't want expect anything in particular, he was prepared for anything and everything.

I think his low-crouching uneven tempo fighting, with unorthodox punching from weird angles, would be a nightmare for Tyson.

Weird, but thank you for this post.

I think maybe I'm over-analyzing his style rather than paying attention to the fights themselves. I still think he was in the right weightclass at the right time(aka competition wasn't at its peak in the HW divison while he ruled the roost)

[Sweet Pea]

This thread has probably been done earlier, but I haven't seen it so I'm interested in your views.

Tyson had superior speed, power and technique, while Marciano was a superior in-fighter and had vastly superior stamina and will IMO.

My take is that Rocky would win if he could take it into the later rounds, but I don't think he would succeed with that. Surely, a guy who was floored early by both Walcott and Moore would be KO'd or TKO'd by such a vicious puncher and finisher that Tyson was in his prime. If he could take into the later rounds, though, I think he would eventually wear Tyson down and inflict some bad damage in close on his way to a KO-win. At least if it was over 15 rounds.

Your views?15 rounds wouldn't mean a thing, as it wouldn't last that long. Tyson by KO within the first few rounds, pick one.

[Sonny's jab]

I dont think Marciano gets knocked out early, that's just crazy talk to me. Marciano was always in such terrific condition, and had awesome recuperative powers and determination, I cant see him getting knocked out. Maybe late in a fight, but not early.

When Walcott knocked him down Marciano was straight back up, and later said that he thought to himself "He might do that 5 or 6 times tonight, this could be a tough fight" ... That's Rocky's mindset, after being decked in a fight for the first time in his career, in the first minute of his first championship fight, no panic, no THOUGHT of losing, just an acceptance that the guy was gonna be hard to beat. As it was, Walcott could not repeat that feat. Maybe Tyson could, maybe Tyson has the ability to knock Marciano down 5 or 6 times in the early rounds, but Rocky's gonna be hitting back after the first knockdown - and how much can Tyson take ?
Does anyone believe Tyson has that same mindset ?
Lesser men than Marciano survive the early Tyson onslaught.
Marciano was very very tough. And very very awkward, and rough, and hard-punching. Marciano was a special fighter. He's not going out like Tubbs or Berbick, IMO. He's a cut above.

[radianttwilight]

Marciano gets beaten down early. Marciano is one of my favorite heavyweights, but he has neither the size nor the style to beat Tyson. Among ALL the modern heavyweight champions, I think Tyson could've benefitted the most by having some <200lb guys to feast on. It's a shame he never got any of them.

Upon further investigation, I came upon this fact - from his first title fight (Berbick's WBC) to his retirement, his lightest opponent was none other than former lightheavy Michael Spinks, who still managed to weigh in at 212lbs, whom he destroyed in 91 seconds, I think?

I highly doubt that anyone smaller than prime Tyson would beat him, much less somebody who weighed in at 185 (giving up a full thirty pounds) and had a come-forward brawler/slugger style.

[Russell]

Don't understand the rosy notion that Marciano is invulnerable...

[Dempsey1238]

Don't understand the rosy notion that Marciano is invulnerable...

And I dont understand the rosie notice that prime Tyson was invincible.

[C. M. Clay II]

:lol: :-(

It took him six to get rid of Layne, eight to get rid of 1,023 year old Louis, thirteen for Walcott [after being outboxed], eleven for LaStarza and goes the distance with Charles in the first fight but he's going to KO a real prime heavyweight like Mike who is much bigger, stronger and faster than those guys in five? Get real.

Yeah, I know. The haters and fanboys don't get it.

[Russell]

And I dont understand the rosie notice that prime Tyson was invincible.

I don't believe either, personally. You're never going to see me argue that Tyson's on some pedestal.

[ripcity]

Tyson is bigger faster and stronger than anyone Marciano ever faced. Sure Marciano was tough and duribble and underated as a boxer but Tyson would stop him within five rounds.

[JIm Broughton]

Speed kills. We all know it. Tyson was just too fast and powerful period. Tyson in his prime threw very fast powerful combinations, 3 and 4 at a time, not the one -and -a -two combos that fighters in Rocky's time threw. Rocky would be facing a completely different animal in Mike. Nothing like the fighters he was accustomed to fighting who were much slower and less powerful. And let's face it, Rocky never faced an opponent with Tysons power, ever. Walcott was a good puncher, so was Moore, but they could'nt match Tyson in the power or speed department. And if those two could deck Rocky and hurt him then Mike could also, and probably finish him as well.

[Dempsey1238]

If speed kills, It sure didnt help Charles, Walcott, and Archie Moore avoid the beatings that were waiting for them.

[SteveO]

Tough fight, but late KO for Tyson.

[fists of fury]

Marciano gets beaten down early. Marciano is one of my favorite heavyweights, but he has neither the size nor the style to beat Tyson. Among ALL the modern heavyweight champions, I think Tyson could've benefitted the most by having some <200lb guys to feast on. It's a shame he never got any of them.

Upon further investigation, I came upon this fact - from his first title fight (Berbick's WBC) to his retirement, his lightest opponent was none other than former lightheavy Michael Spinks, who still managed to weigh in at 212lbs, whom he destroyed in 91 seconds, I think?

I highly doubt that anyone smaller than prime Tyson would beat him, much less somebody who weighed in at 185 (giving up a full thirty pounds) and had a come-forward brawler/slugger style.

Good post.

I know size isn't everything but Mike was roughly Rocky's height, with 30 additional pounds and much quicker hands.
Rocky's innate toughness and ruggedness coupled with his awkwardness and lack of height would keep him in the fight for a few rounds, but I can't see him dealing with Tyson's extraordinary blend of speed and power.
Tyson stops him in the early to middle (2-6)rounds.

Sorry Rock. :verysad

[PhillyPhan69]

:lol: :-(

It took him six to get rid of Layne, eight to get rid of 1,023 year old Louis, thirteen for Walcott [after being outboxed], eleven for LaStarza and goes the distance with Charles in the first fight but he's going to KO a real prime heavyweight like Mike who is much bigger, stronger and faster than those guys in five? Get real.

You picked tyson in 4??? Fanboy!!! Tyson couldn't drop mJourneyman Tillis...couldn't stop the great talent in Mitch Green....Tyson got dropped and demolished by medocrity in Douglas...wait untill he meets a real fighter!!! What are you in high school and never seen any of these people. Tyson gets destroyed by just about every top 10 ATG (I can't find him a win there to be honest!)

[Sonny's jab]

I'm surprised so many have picked Tyson by early KO.

No, actually I'm not surprised. Tyson's always been a big favourite round here.

When two short-armed punchers collide head on, I would always pick the guy with more toughness and proven ability to win tough fights and get off the deck to win, and that's Rocky.

If Tyson knocks Rocky down 3 or 4 times Rocky's still gonna be in the fight, and he's gonna be hitting and hurting Tyson.
This isn't rose-tinted fantasy, it's the reality of the situation. These guys would be on top of each other, head-on, BOTH would get hit, and hit HARD.
I noticed that Tyson became a lesser fighter when guys would hit him back and hurt him. But when Rocky's hurt he ups his game.

[Mendoza]

Sonny's jab I dont think Marciano gets knocked out early, that's just crazy talk to me. Marciano was always in such terrific condition, and had awesome recuperative powers and determination, I cant see him getting knocked out. Maybe late in a fight, but not early.
Vs slightly past their prime, sub 200 pound heavies who hit on Walcott' Charles' or Moore's level, I agree with you. Rocky is not going out early, though he was in some trouble vs Walcott in round one. However, Tyson hits much harder than these three and each of the three men really tested Rocky's reserves.

Rocky was not a fast starter in his title fights. He took on average a shade over nine rounds to win. Could Rocky survive Tyson’s early onslaught? There is no doubt Tyson speed would beat Marciano to the punch, and in his prime Tyson could deliver powerful combinations and had a pretty good defense too. The uppercut and hooks to the body is the best weapon vs a crouching type of stance, and Tyson was simply great with body shots and uppercuts. Marciano swong and missed often, and Tyson could coutner him.


If they meet in their primes ( Which for Tyson was 1986-1988 ) I think Tyson win’s. Maybe not in round 1 or 2 two, but perhaps rounds 3-6.

[Holmes' Jab]

Tyson TKO5. Too much power, size and speed for Dempsey to overcome.

[PhillyPhan69]

Ok Fonzy, riddle me this. You pick two fights where, with Tillis, he wanted to get rounds in, and with Green, well Green RAN the entire fight. Also you choose a declining post-Rooney Tyson. Try the on that destroyed Spinks or KO'd Larry Holmes or Trevor Berbick. No fucking straight forward fighter beats prime (1986-1989) Tyson. You are also underrating Tyson's very own Iron Chin. Tyson beats Dempsey, Rock, Louis, Johnson, Tunney, Walcott, Charles, etc...NO HW in that era beats Mike.:bart

Does your Mommy know that you are skipping school???

[Sonny's jab]

Vs slightly past their prime, sub 200 pound heavies who hit on Walcott' Charles' or Moore's level, I agree with you. Rocky is not going out early, though he was in some trouble vs Walcott in round one. However, Tyson hits much harder than these three and each of the three men really tested Rocky's reserves.

Rocky was not a fast starter in his title fights. He took on average a shade over nine rounds to win. Could Rocky survive Tyson’s early onslaught? There is no doubt Tyson speed would beat Marciano to the punch, and in his prime Tyson could deliver powerful combinations and had a pretty good defense too. The uppercut and hooks to the body is the best weapon vs a crouching type of stance, and Tyson was simply great with body shots and uppercuts. Marciano swong and missed often, and Tyson could coutner him.


If they meet in their primes ( Which for Tyson was 1986-1988 ) I think Tyson win’s. Maybe not in round 1 or 2 two, but perhaps rounds 3-6.

I think Marciano's power gets him out of trouble. It's as simple as that. He's going to hit Tyson, and not just once. And after a few rounds Tyson's going to be very uncomfortable. Tyson cant hook Marciano's body without being in range for one of Rocky's shots. And Rocky had the awkward lean-back-duck-low-lurch-forward stuff, (some of his unorthodox defensive moves are actually impossible to describe in words), and he's not open for many uppercuts. And Rocky threw punches that Tyson's lateral slipping bob-and-weave defense was not designed to avoid.

I dont think Tyson's style was suited as well for shorter, lower, crowding fighters, I think Tyson might get pushed on to the backfoot often, butted, ruffled.
Marciano had "no style" so he'd just do what comes natural.

Tyson was a bit of a front-runner, and often looking to the referee (even in his prime), he fought rough but didn't like it thrown back at him. He had mental weaknesses.
I dont see him beating Marciano in a million years.

But, hey, I'm in the minority here.

[Holmes' Jab]

I can see the logic behind your post SJ, but I don't think it would get to that stage. Tyson would land early and most likely hurt Marciano, badly too- I just can't see Rocky weathering the storm.

He had tremendous fighting heart, but would be overwhelmed by the power and volume of Tyson's assults. He's likely be stopped on cuts approaching the mid-rounds.

[Sonny's jab]

I can see the logic behind your post SJ, but I don't think it would get to that stage. Tyson would land early and most likely hurt Marciano, badly too- I just can't see Rocky weathering the storm.

He had tremendous fighting heart, but would be overwhelmed by the power and volume of Tyson's assults. He's likely be stopped on cuts approaching the mid-rounds.

Lesser fighters than Marciano weathered Tyson's early onslaught.
Thomas went 6, Ruddock 12, Bruno 5, Ribalta 10, Biggs 7, even guys like Mike Jameson and Green soaked up a lot of Tyson's best shots. And some of these guy didn't even believe they could win !!
They didn't all "just clinch" either.

I just dont see a guy like Marciano, with his legendary conditioning, self-belief and recuperative powers and toughness, not to mention his awkwardness and crowding style (that would break Tyson's rhythm), being blasted out early.

Lots of you guys are saying it, but I just dont see it.

Tyson slowed down after 2 or 3 rounds, and Marciano would be strong enough to cope and up the pace after that.

[Bokaj]

Lesser fighters than Marciano weathered Tyson's early onslaught.
Thomas went 6, Ruddock 12, Bruno 5, Ribalta 10, Biggs 7, even guys like Mike Jameson and Green soaked up a lot of Tyson's best shots. And some of these guy didn't even believe they could win !!
They didn't all "just clinch" either.

I just dont see a guy like Marciano, with his legendary conditioning, self-belief and recuperative powers and toughness, not to mention his awkwardness and crowding style (that would break Tyson's rhythm), being blasted out early.

Lots of you guys are saying it, but I just dont see it.

Tyson slowed down after 2 or 3 rounds, and Marciano would be strong enough to cope and up the pace after that.

I won't say I'm entirely convinced, but I do like your arguments, though. It's that 30 pounds weight difference I can't see past, since Tyson was so fast and dynamic for his weight. In weight difference it's like Marciano fighting a middleweight, if you reverse it.

But you're very right when you say Tyson didn't like to get crowded. Still Marciano had to be somewhat bigger to be my favourite. But I do see where you're coming from.

In an earlier thread I actually predicted that Chuvalo would cause Tyson problems, even though he's inferior to Marciano in every aspect except size and chin. For me Chuvalo's crowding style and monster chin might see him through the first 5-7 rounds and then things will get uncomfortable for "Iron Mike". Marciano would make it even more uncomfortable for Tyson if he made it through those rounds, but I just don't see him doing that.

[ironchamp]

I'm surprised so many have picked Tyson by early KO.

No, actually I'm not surprised. Tyson's always been a big favourite round here.

When two short-armed punchers collide head on, I would always pick the guy with more toughness and proven ability to win tough fights and get off the deck to win, and that's Rocky.

If Tyson knocks Rocky down 3 or 4 times Rocky's still gonna be in the fight, and he's gonna be hitting and hurting Tyson.
This isn't rose-tinted fantasy, it's the reality of the situation. These guys would be on top of each other, head-on, BOTH would get hit, and hit HARD.
I noticed that Tyson became a lesser fighter when guys would hit him back and hurt him. But when Rocky's hurt he ups his game.

Disagree completely.

Tyson doesnt become lesser when he gets hit hard. See the Ruddock fights; Fight 1 round 6 towards the end Tyson took a couple of clean blows from Razor and what does he do he taps his chin like "give me more."

Tyson would never get frustrated in a fight where he is landing consistently, only in a fight where Tyson cannot land would he grow frustrated. And even then his frustrations were generally contained. Against Marciano, he'd land plenty and because Marciano doesnt offer any stylistic advantage to Tyson, he must be the underdog in this affair.

IF Tyson knocks down Rocky 3 or 4 times, given Tyson's accuracy, power and speed the best Marciano can hope for is a mercy stoppage.

[abraq]

Sorry, I didn't know it was a hypothetical situation - my bad. I think Rocky would be woefully out of shape at the weights you are stating. Tyson was similar to Marciano in height but seemed to have a much larger upper body. They both had thick legs. With modern nutrition, supplements, steroids, etc. Marciano could nowadays put on functional bulk ala Holyfield. But I think what he did worked just fine. I don't believe one can successfully predict what would happen if we took an athlete from yesteryear and then transport him into a different era. I think you are better off taking the prime Marciano of the early 1950's, as is, against the prime Tyson of the late 80's, as is, IMO. That seems more logical I think.
Sardu, I can understand your wanting to leave two fighters from different eras as they were. That is the obvious and easiest thing to do. I don't know if it is logical but, don't you think that it is unfair? That is, unfair to the fighter from the earlier era. I mean one guy gets the advantages of all modern advances and the other guy has to do without it. People doesn't appreciate what drugs can do. Would you consider a 100 mts. race between a juiced athlete and a natural athlete to be fair?

I have written about this particular issue in various posts of mine. I think the answer might be that we should specify whether we are talking about fighters as they were or how they would be under the same set of facilities. That would be fairer. As for being hypothetical, isn't any discussion about a bout between between fighters from different eras hypothetical? If we can attempt to imagine how the skills and abilities of the combatants would be put into practice to determine the result, we can surely imagine how a person would respond to drugs and supplements as well as nutritional and training advances.

Best regards.

[Sweet Pea]

You picked tyson in 4??? Fanboy!!! Tyson couldn't drop mJourneyman Tillis...couldn't stop the great talent in Mitch Green....Tyson got dropped and demolished by medocrity in Douglas...wait untill he meets a real fighter!!! What are you in high school and never seen any of these people. Tyson gets destroyed by just about every top 10 ATG (I can't find him a win there to be honest!)You sound like the idiot in this thread, so don't try to rag on other people for their supposed lack of knowledge by your standards.

Your ignorance regarding Tyson is laughable. I thought we'd gotten rid off all those myths. I suppose you think "All you have to do is stand up to Tyson and he'll crumble!" as well.

Watch a prime, late 80's, trained by Rooney, Mike Tyson please, not the latter version.

[Jase2483]

a prime tyson from 87-89(right before douglas) was amazing

just awe inspiring....then it all went downhill

[Dempsey1238]

At age 24, I still dont buy the Tyson was shot at 24 thing.

[Sweet Pea]

At age 24, I still dont buy the Tyson was shot at 24 thing.He wasn't shot physically, but Rooney's style is what made him most effective, especially against the bigger, taller jabbers he later had problems with when he resorted to becoming primarily a brawler. After Rooney left, Tyson became a less methodical head-hunter. Still a force, but beatable. In his prime, possibly still beatable, but not nearly as simple choosing a particular style to do it.

[Florida boy]

Marciano weathers the early storm and KO's Tyson around 10 rounds. Marciano had a very underrated unorthodox defense.
no, he didnt, his defense was offense, thats why he was outboxed and battered on more then one occasion. Tyson all night long.

[Muchmoore]

Tyson by KO. He is bigger, stronger, hits harder, has faster feet, and faster hands. Marciano has the edge in stamina but I dont think that matters here as the fight will be done before stamina plays a role. A good fight, but Marciano gets outgunned.

[Bokaj]

a prime tyson from 87-89(right before douglas) was amazing

just awe inspiring....then it all went downhill

I don't buy that Tysons' prime ended right before the Douglas fight. It's too convenient and it's just a lame excuse IMO. No one thought he was past his prime right before the fight, that talk only started when it turned out he could be outclassed by a good, but by no means great, fighter. He had had personal problems for years by that point. Actually according to some people those poblems provided the fury he wented in destroying Spinks. The fact his personal problems have been used to explain both his best and his worst perfomance in the 80's just goes to show how unreliable explainition it is.

Tyson wasn't at his sharpest against Douglas, but he was by no means past his prime. Compare that fight with Ali's first fight against Norton, where he was poorly prepared as well, but also several years past his prime and suffered a broken jaw early on, but still made his perhaps most difficult opponent work for his victory.

Actaully, the weaknesses that Douglas exploited was already showing in Tyson's fight against Tony Tucker. And if Tucker hadn't hurt his hand in that fight Tyson might have lost that one too. So no more excuses! Tyson was outclassed by a not too impressive boxer when still in his prime. That's always gonna count against him for everyone but the nuthuggers. Easy as that.

[Muchmoore]

[quote=Bokaj] No one thought he was past his prime right before the fight,
quote]

Actually, in the beginning of the 1st round the commentators mentioned that there had been talk that Tyson hadn't trained hard for this fight. It's not a lame excuse it's a fact. He was even dropped by Greg Page in sparring which is something that would never happen to a peak Tyson.

[Bokaj]

[quote=Bokaj] No one thought he was past his prime right before the fight,
quote]

Actually, in the beginning of the 1st round the commentators mentioned that there had been talk that Tyson hadn't trained hard for this fight. It's not a lame excuse it's a fact. He was even dropped by Greg Page in sparring which is something that would never happen to a peak Tyson.

If you read my post I agreed that he wasn't the best prepared before the fight, but that doesn't mean he was past his prime. Ali only trained a couple of weeks before his first fight with Chuvalo, but he wasn't past his prime.

There's always gonna be fights that boxers take a bit too lightly, but that doesn't mean they´re past it. Louis had 25 title defences and SRR had 99 straight victories, do you think they were perfectly prepared for all those fights?

[Muchmoore]

[quote=Muchmoore]

If you read my post I agreed that he wasn't the best prepared before the fight, but that doesn't mean he was past his prime. Ali only trained a couple of weeks before his first fight with Chuvalo, but he wasn't past his prime.

There's always gonna be fights that boxers take a bit too lightly, but that doesn't mean they´re past it. Louis had 25 title defences and SRR had 99 straight victories, do you think they were perfectly prepared for all those fights?

Tyson had lost much of his desire and cared more about partying and drugs than fighting when he fought Douglas. It wasn't just the Douglas fight, he looked noticably worse when he fought Bruno. He had evolved from a fast, lethal more patient fighter into a head hunter who just looks for one big shot.

Louis and Robinson had dedication to boxing for a longer amount of time than Tyson.

[Bokaj]

Tyson had lost much of his desire and cared more about partying and drugs than fighting when he fought Douglas. It wasn't just the Douglas fight, he looked noticably worse when he fought Bruno. He had evolved from a fast, lethal more patient fighter into a head hunter who just looks for one big shot.

He didn't look that bad when he fought Bruno, that's mostly a re-construction afterwards to excuse Tyson's loss to Douglas. Sure, Bruno wasn't his greatest fight, but neither was his fight against Bonecrusher Smith. The thing is no one was even close to suggest Tyson was past it after either one of these fights, it's only after the Douglas fight this reasoning has come into being.

He was probably a bit comfortable and overconfident against both Bruno and Douglas, but that's the case for most champions that enjoy that kind of superiorty in his division. Again, Ali was underprepared, overconfident AND past his prime when facing Norton, but still made a fight of it. Despite meeting maybe his most difficult opponent and suffering a broken jaw early on. See the difference?

[Sonny's jab]

Disagree completely.

Tyson doesnt become lesser when he gets hit hard. See the Ruddock fights; Fight 1 round 6 towards the end Tyson took a couple of clean blows from Razor and what does he do he taps his chin like "give me more."

Tyson would never get frustrated in a fight where he is landing consistently, only in a fight where Tyson cannot land would he grow frustrated. And even then his frustrations were generally contained. Against Marciano, he'd land plenty and because Marciano doesnt offer any stylistic advantage to Tyson, he must be the underdog in this affair.

IF Tyson knocks down Rocky 3 or 4 times, given Tyson's accuracy, power and speed the best Marciano can hope for is a mercy stoppage.

Well, I meant that Tyson becomes a lesser fighter when a guy's beating up on him. He never once turned a really tough fight around (oh, maybe Botha, but Botha was not good, and nor was Tyson then).
Tyson was a bit of a front runner.

He should have finished Ruddock off early. I dont see why that's used as such a good win for him. Tyson had the upper hand throughout that fight, he didn't have to come from behind, and he let Ruddock off the hook on more than one occasion. Sure, Tyson could take a punch, but Ruddock was throwing one or two at a time and not more. Ruddock failed to live up to his hype at the top level.
Lewis crushed Ruddock.

I disagree that Marciano is at a "stylistic disadvantage" and I dont think he'd be getting hit cleanly much. It's about range and angles.
Tyson was perfect at bowling over tall stand-up fighters like Holmes, Ruddock, Carl Williams. Guys that gave him the space to weave forward and explode from mid-range. His style isn't right for low-crouching guy like Marciano, who will crowd him and fight dirty and unorthodox.

Tyson's lateral headmovement, the way he slipped punches by bending his upper body from side-to-side while coming forward like a spring, and exploding, was EXCELLENT against orthodox, upright, rangy boxers, and if they retreated straight back he murders them every time. But it's gonna be mostly redundant against a guy like Marciano, who'd be on Tyson's chest, flinging elbows in his face, and sending punches in from odd angles.Marciano would break Tyson's rhythm by crowding him. Tyson doesn't like it messy and too close. His feet are too square on the inside and he doesn't cope too well with headbutts, despite using them against taller opponents on many occasions.

I think Marciano beats him up. It wont look pretty, and he'll have to take some shots, but I think Marciano would beat him down.

That's just my opinion.

[Muchmoore]

He didn't look that bad when he fought Bruno, that's mostly a re-construction afterwards to excuse Tyson's loss to Douglas. Sure, Bruno wasn't his greatest fight, but neither was his fight against Bonecrusher Smith. The thing is no one was even close to suggest Tyson was past it after either one of these fights, it's only after the Douglas fight this reasoning has come into being.

He was probably a bit comfortable and overconfident against both Bruno and Douglas, but that's the case for most champions that enjoy that kind of superiorty in his division. Again, Ali was underprepared, overconfident AND past his prime when facing Norton, but still made a fight of it. Despite meeting maybe his most difficult opponent and suffering a broken jaw early on. See the difference?

Ali trained a lot harder even for Norton than Tyson did for Douglas. The difference between the Tyson of the Spinks fight and the Tyson of the Douglas fight is greater than the difference between the 67 Ali and the Ali that lost to Norton.

Tyson won pretty much every round against Smith who was a champ at the time so that's a good win. He didn't do it looking spectacular but that was because Smith decided to clinch at every opportunity.

[prime]

Tony Tubbs pretty much won Round 1 by staying on the outside but, once he decided to fight Tyson, crowd him and make it a punch-out, Tyson proved he could be brutal inside and crushed him within the end of the second round. And Tubbs was a strong, determined man that Tokyo afternoon.

Tyson knew all the gimmicks (he studied the film) and had better power and variety with both hands, not to mention speed. Marciano would be too slow and predictable.

Of course, the great Marciano never lost, but he never faced a Tyson coming up to take the title. The enigma of Tyson is, with extraordinary talent, preparation and savvy, he conquered his Everest very quickly and, three years later, was more interested in things like fornicating and, like so many who reach the top (the Beatles, Britney [ugh!], to name a couple), simply lost the fire and began to drift. But a Tyson motivated to make Cus' dream come true is kryptonite to the wade-in Marciano.

[Dempsey1238]

no, he didnt, his defense was offense, thats why he was outboxed and battered on more then one occasion. Tyson all night long.


The only guy to relly out box and batterd Marciano, Was Joe Walcott in the first fight, the other fights Marciano handed out one sided beatings. With Charles 1, they both batterd each other, but Charles did not out box the Rock.

[Bummy Davis]

People in his own time didn't "get Rocky" either. He had a crude, ugly, awkward style. Many "refined" boxers tried to exploit this, but they just couldn't figure him out once the bell rang, they left the ring not only hurting but often admitting that he "out-thought" them in there, as well as having out-fought them.

Marciano didn't care who he was fighting, he liked to know nothing about his opponents, because he didn't want expect anything in particular, he was prepared for anything and everything.

I think his low-crouching uneven tempo fighting, with unorthodox punching from weird angles, would be a nightmare for Tyson.

Intelligent post:good :good :good

[Bummy Davis]

Tyson had trouble with guys that took his best and fired back, I think Tyson would also be surprised that Marciano was not so easy to hit without getting hit back. I see this fight vs both in there primes going into the 10th rd with Marciano getting stronger and Tyson getting discourgaged and taking the count as he did in fights vs Williams,Mcbride and Holyfield. Intestanal fortitude and mental strength were Marciano's gifts and they would bring out the opposite in Tyson

[Sakura]

Tyson easy KO...size,speed, skill's....

[josak]

At age 24, I still dont buy the Tyson was shot at 24 thing.
he wasn't shot but he was going downhill as a fighter. After the Spniks fight, he dropped Rooney, and his skills started to deteriorate. Just watch any fight pre-spinks and any afterwards and the difference is quite obvious.

[Hank]

This thread has probably been done earlier, but I haven't seen it so I'm interested in your views.

Tyson had superior speed, power and technique, while Marciano was a superior in-fighter and had vastly superior stamina and will IMO.

My take is that Rocky would win if he could take it into the later rounds, but I don't think he would succeed with that. Surely, a guy who was floored early by both Walcott and Moore would be KO'd or TKO'd by such a vicious puncher and finisher that Tyson was in his prime. If he could take into the later rounds, though, I think he would eventually wear Tyson down and inflict some bad damage in close on his way to a KO-win. At least if it was over 15 rounds.

Your views?

You start out saying "Tyson had superiour power and technique." Accoording to you maybe, but that is not a fact.

You are not asking a question with your post, you're dicking people around. Go dick yourself around.

[Hank]

Marciano may have hit harder. Tyson threw better in combos, Marciano threw more, and at better pace. Both had good skills, Marciano gets my edge there. Stamina goes to Marciano, but in head to head match, it may not matter. It would not go long, although if it stays a slugfest past a few, at fast pace, Marciano gets bigger edge. I pick Marciano, but it is no roll over.

[RoccoMarciano]

Marciano may have hit harder. Tyson threw better in combos, Marciano threw more, and at better pace. Both had good skills, Marciano gets my edge there. Stamina goes to Marciano, but in head to head match, it may not matter. It would not go long, although if it stays a slugfest past a few, at fast pace, Marciano gets bigger edge. I pick Marciano, but it is no roll over.

I agree, Tyson has a round or two chance to end it. The only problem for Tyson? He can't hit hard enough, even in combination, to take out Marciano in 1 or 2.

Rocky starches Tyson's fag ass in the fifth round after grinning at a couple of Tyson combos.

[fists of fury]

I agree, Tyson has a round or two chance to end it. The only problem for Tyson? He can't hit hard enough, even in combination, to take out Marciano in 1 or 2.

Rocky starches Tyson's fag ass in the fifth round after grinning at a couple of Tyson combos.

I love the Rock, but no way is he just going to shrug off Tyson's best punches. No-one ever did, not for a sustained period anyway.

Marciano poses certain stylistic problems for Tyson, but so too does Tyson for Marciano. Tyson's handspeed will give him the opportunity to counter Rocky when he gets sloppy and starts throwing those looping right hands. Moore did it for a spell, and Tyson almost certainly will.
Only Tyson is much quicker, bigger, and stronger than Moore, and hits substantially harder.

Rocky will be in Tyson's face for as long as the fight lasts. He lacks a world-class jab (actually he lacked a jab full stop) and probably doesn't have the strength to outmuscle Tyson and walk him backward like Holyfield did.
Cuts almost undoubtedly will be a factor too.
I just can't see how Rocky can win.

[Russell]

Even the people who could take Tyson's punches suffered badly from them.

Tyson smashed Green's face apart with no gloves.

With gloves he broke a bunch of his teeth out of his mouth.

[fists of fury]

I don't buy that Tysons' prime ended right before the Douglas fight. It's too convenient and it's just a lame excuse IMO. No one thought he was past his prime right before the fight, that talk only started when it turned out he could be outclassed by a good, but by no means great, fighter. He had had personal problems for years by that point. Actually according to some people those poblems provided the fury he wented in destroying Spinks. The fact his personal problems have been used to explain both his best and his worst perfomance in the 80's just goes to show how unreliable explainition it is.

Tyson wasn't at his sharpest against Douglas, but he was by no means past his prime. Compare that fight with Ali's first fight against Norton, where he was poorly prepared as well, but also several years past his prime and suffered a broken jaw early on, but still made his perhaps most difficult opponent work for his victory.

Actaully, the weaknesses that Douglas exploited was already showing in Tyson's fight against Tony Tucker. And if Tucker hadn't hurt his hand in that fight Tyson might have lost that one too. So no more excuses! Tyson was outclassed by a not too impressive boxer when still in his prime. That's always gonna count against him for everyone but the nuthuggers. Easy as that.

Sure he was still in his prime. What he was, was woefully unprepared for the Douglas fight. You look at the fight and tell me it's the same guy who beat Spinks, Biggs, Holmes etc.

The personal problems outside the ring definitely played it's part in his overall decline. I don't care who you are, eventually all that turmoil, self-inflicted or otherwise, is going to catch up with you.

Rooney leaving (or rather, being booted out) certainly didn't help either.
Look at Tyson's style in '88 compared to say, in 1991. Almost a completely different guy in there. Certainly the mentality was different.

[Bokaj]

You start out saying "Tyson had superiour power and technique." Accoording to you maybe, but that is not a fact.

You are not asking a question with your post, you're dicking people around. Go dick yourself around.

I end the sentence with "IMO", which is an abbrevation of "in my opinion". Clear things up for you?

[Sonny's jab]

Dude, all ya'll saying Rock would "overcome the storm" are ignornant.

No, I dont think I'm being ignorant. It's just my opinion. I've made about three or four detailed posts, that go into my own stylistic analysis of how I see the fight.
I have faith in Marciano overcoming Tyson's early onslaught - as several other fighters did - and fighting back, AND having enough left to start to make inroads when Tyson slows down.


In his Rooney-trained prime, Tyson never was frustrated. He said it best after the Mitch Green fight, "I love going rounds, I have fun in there, it's great to get a fight where I actually have to fight." Or when he said "If there's 12 or 15 rounds, it dont matter cause eventually, I'll catch them."


But even Tyson's biggest fans should acknowledge that Tyson slowed down gradually after the first 2 or 3 rounds, sometimes after 2 rounds. Look at the Thomas fight, the Tucker fight (two of his best fights, two of his best opponents). Against Thomas he comes out fierce in round 1, but by round 3 or 4 he's doing less than Thomas. Tyson's fast starts meant he often had to make a gear adjustment when guys didn't fall quick, and often that meant that he slowed down and looked predictable in some rounds. Let's not pretend that he was like the first round in every round.


Rocky didnt have the chin to trade with Mike, yes he had an A+ chin, but who had the power in those days of Tyson?? No one. Tyson would have a field day with Marciano. To skilled, he would bob and weeve all night while constantly landing at will and probley cutting both eyes and cracking some ribs in the process. The fights like Boncrusher Smith and Tony Tubbs was Mike getting rounds in while the others just clintched at every oppourtunity. Tyson beat Rocky 100% of the time

That's your opinion.
I've covered how I think their styles would mesh in other posts.

[Bokaj]

I hoped this would be a thread with interesting opinions and I haven't been disappointed. I have to say that I really like how "Sonny's jab" makes his case, even though I don't completely agree.

Too bad that many people get riled up just because others don't support their particular guy. I definitely don't think the word "ignorant" can be used against someone favouring either Rocky or Iron Mike since they were both great fighters. The only thing I can say with a 100 % certainity is that I would love to see a fight between these two.

To take it a step further, who do you see winning if they were fighting in the same era (let's say they were both peaking in the late 80's for the sake of simplicty)? I actually think my money would be on Rocky in that case.

[PhillyPhan69]

I agree, Tyson has a round or two chance to end it. The only problem for Tyson? He can't hit hard enough, even in combination, to take out Marciano in 1 or 2.

Rocky starches Tyson's fag ass in the fifth round after grinning at a couple of Tyson combos.

5th rd...that's the same pick I made!!! But Tyson fans who are certain that he was indestructable (WRONG) may disagree!

[Amsterdam]

15 rounds wouldn't mean a thing, as it wouldn't last that long. Tyson by KO within the first few rounds, pick one.

Round 1.

[Amsterdam]

I agree, Tyson has a round or two chance to end it. The only problem for Tyson? He can't hit hard enough, even in combination, to take out Marciano in 1 or 2.

Rocky starches Tyson's fag ass in the fifth round after grinning at a couple of Tyson combos.

:patsch

[round15]

Good fight. These two fighters are among the top five shorter heavyweights of all time. Marciano would have a very tough time beating the 1986 - 1989 Tyson. Speed would be the ultimate factor in this fight and Tyson's combinations would probably KO Marciano inside 8 rounds. When Tyson was young, experts were quick to conclude that he didn't have the stamina to consistently punch in the later rounds as opposed to the early round pace he likes to set. Marciano sometimes was a bit of a slow starter, so unless the fight goes past 8 rounds, Tyson would KO Marciano. Marciano would only win by late KO, the same way Holyfield beat Tyson, or decision.

[Hank]

I end the sentence with "IMO", which is an abbrevation of "in my opinion". Clear things up for you?

Sorry, you are right, how I missed that I don't know. I'm familiar with imo,
it's just a case of *IFU Sorry Bokaj








* I Fucked Up:patsch