Joe Louis doc on HBO

[Mendoza]

HBO Sports: Joe Louis: Americas's Hero...Betrayed: Klitschko On Joe Louis ([Only registered and activated users can see links])!


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>>Just a hunch, this one is going to be very good.

[Sardu]

He said some nice things. Everyone like Joe Louis. I think the only person I heard about not liking him was Jack Johnson. he and Louis did not get along from what I read.

[Mendoza]

He said some nice things. Everyone like Joe Louis. I think the only person I heard about not liking him was Jack Johnson. he and Louis did not get along from what I read.

Not everyone. While this may be a bit off topic, some old time heavies felt Louis had poor defense, poor footwork, and could not feint. Harry Wills said the above on Louis.

Jack Johnson, he was a very selfish person who hated anyone stealing his limelight.

Muhammad Ali once called Joe Louis an Uncle Tom, and a liked to repeat the degratory slow ‘shuffling Joe Louis line.

[teeto]

Not everyone. While this may be a bit off topic, some old time heavies felt Louis had poor defense, poor footwork, and could not feint. Harry Wills said the above on Louis.

Jack Johnson, he was a very selfish person who hated anyone stealing his limelight.

Muhammad Ali once called Joe Louis an Uncle Tom, and a liked to repeat the degratory slow ‘shuffling Joe Louis line.


I do understand the point you are making calling Johnson selfish , but the man lived in undescribingly hard times , not really justifiable commenting on how he acted . He went through some shiit

[Bummy Davis]

Joe Louis was an American Hero, he supported USA during the war, he was a good man, He was not an uncle tom, Ali was a little envious and so was Johnson because most felt that Ali could not reach Louis as a man or fighter,especially amoung the older generation and blacks of Louis's era. Johnson never gave a black fighter a chance at the title when Champ, Louis fought all. Louis was a credit to his race, the human race. Louis was screwed by the IRS and it was Frank Sinatra and Rocky Marciano that made sure Louis got a Class act job at Legas casino, just being Joe Louis and shaking hands. They wanted to make sure there HERO got the respect he deserved

[ChrisPontius]

Not everyone. While this may be a bit off topic, some old time heavies felt Louis had poor defense, poor footwork, and could not feint. Harry Wills said the above on Louis.

Jack Johnson, he was a very selfish person who hated anyone stealing his limelight.

Muhammad Ali once called Joe Louis an Uncle Tom, and a liked to repeat the degratory slow ‘shuffling Joe Louis line.



I think Ali said that because Louis picked almost every opponent over Ali. Supposedly, Louis didn't like Ali's style which according to his old school views, was the opposite of fighting. How culture changes...

[Mendoza]

I do understand the point you are making calling Johnson selfish , but the man lived in undescribingly hard times , not really justifiable commenting on how he acted . He went through some shiit

Johnson lived life, spent a ton of money, and pretty much did what ever he wanted to do. I would not say he lived on hard times. The stuff Johnson went through provided just another opportunity for him to hog the media attention. Sure, he was rail roaded, but the also guilty of many crimes that did not go punished.

[Mendoza]

I think Ali said that because Louis picked almost every opponent over Ali. Supposedly, Louis didn't like Ali's style which according to his old school views, was the opposite of fighting. How culture changes...

That was not it. Louis was proud to be an American. Ali had a separatist and sometimes racy view on America. Those who did not agree with the young Ali were often called Uncle Toms. Ali said this to Louis, and a few other black fighters.

[janitor]

That was not it. Louis was proud to be an American. Ali had a separatist and sometimes racy view on America. Those who did not agree with the young Ali were often called Uncle Toms. Ali said this to Louis, and a few other black fighters.

To be fair to Ali he did give Louis a lot of money in the 70s while he was hard up.

The sum of $50 000 has been mentioned.

[Mendoza]

To be fair to Ali he did give Louis a lot of money in the 70s while he was hard up.

The sum of $50 000 has been mentioned.

This is news to me. Where did you here this?

[Sonny's jab]

Well, Joe Louis was a bit of any Uncle Tom, but he had to be back in those days.

Joe Louis lived in an America where he was a "sporting hero", but most hotels and restaurants in big cities, and everywhere down south, would segregate and refuse him to sit with white folks. So, if he was "proud to be American" he was also being a bit of an Uncle Tom.

But to be fair to him, the civil rights movement at his time was non-existent, and Joe Louis HELPED RAISE THE IMAGE OF BLACK PEOPLE, and became a hero to whites, a symbol of American "freedom", which probably contributed to many whites gradually questioning the tenability of such a ridiculously racist structure they lived under, and imposed on blacks.

Having said that, maybe not, maybe they just thought he was a good man and a great athlete, but blacks and whites should not mix too closely. Sadly, I suspect many Americans (not just Americans), black and white, still think like this today.

As for Muhammad Ali, I cannot believe how he's become linked with the 1960s "civil rights" or "black liberation" movements. He was Elijah Mohammed's disciple, PRO-seperation, PRO-racism. He went against Malcolm X when Malcolm started talking sense, and was opposed to all the liberal civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King Jr.

Ali's political views seemed to be pure Nation of Islam cult-worship, he had no affinity to the liberal civil rights (King etc.) nor with the radical "black power" (Panthers etc.)movements.

I'm sure those guys respected Ali for his big mouth and his defiance, but Ali was opposed to the new ways of thinking, he wanted SEGREGATION and he wanted RACISM. To him, whites and Jews were "devils", blacks who marry whites were sinners and traitors, and "Islam" and "righteousness" was whatever Elijah Mohammed said it was.

Basically Ali was a simple idiot.

[Mendoza]

still that does not (at leat in my opinion) make up for calling Joe louis an uncle tom!:deal

Ali has no excuse for this. He wasn't hyping a fight. Ali also called Terrell an Uncle Tom.

[Bummy Davis]

Well, Joe Louis was a bit of any Uncle Tom, but he had to be back in those days.

Joe Louis lived in an America where he was a "sporting hero", but most hotels and restaurants in big cities, and everywhere down south, would segregate and refuse him to sit with white folks. So, if he was "proud to be American" he was also being a bit of an Uncle Tom.

But to be fair to him, the civil rights movement at his time was non-existent, and Joe Louis HELPED RAISE THE IMAGE OF BLACK PEOPLE, and became a hero to whites, a symbol of American "freedom", which probably contributed to many whites gradually questioning the tenability of such a ridiculously racist structure they lived under, and imposed on blacks.

Having said that, maybe not, maybe they just thought he was a good man and a great athlete, but blacks and whites should not mix too closely. Sadly, I suspect many Americans (not just Americans), black and white, still think like this today.

As for Muhammad Ali, I cannot believe how he's become linked with the 1960s "civil rights" or "black liberation" movements. He was Elijah Mohammed's disciple, PRO-seperation, PRO-racism. He went against Malcolm X when Malcolm started talking sense, and was opposed to all the liberal civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King Jr.

Ali's political views seemed to be pure Nation of Islam cult-worship, he had no affinity to the liberal civil rights (King etc.) nor with the radical "black power" (Panthers etc.)movements.

I'm sure those guys respected Ali for his big mouth and his defiance, but Ali was opposed to the new ways of thinking, he wanted SEGREGATION and he wanted RACISM. To him, whites and Jews were "devils", blacks who marry whites were sinners and traitors, and "Islam" and "righteousness" was whatever Elijah Mohammed said it was.

Basically Ali was a simple idiot.

You spelled it out pretty good, Martin Luther King was a hero and did the most for civil rights. the Black Muslims on the other hand were Gangsters, I know a sect in Jersey who sold drugs and controlled it in the Black area's and had many murders and the leader of that klan Jerimiah Shabazz had a direct involvement with Shaking Ali down for lots of money,all and all, Ali was a victim, a tough guy in the ring but a sheep and a follower and a puppet in this group. I know the cards were stacked against blacks in the 50's and 60's but Civil rights and joining a gang are 2 different things, Louis was a loved and colorless to some but not all, unfortunatly, but to call it like it is....you are correct

[janitor]

still that does not (at leat in my opinion) make up for calling Joe louis an uncle tom!:deal

Well he was a loudmouthed kid who spoke out in anger but he did take care of Louis financialy when it counted.

Louis also made some hurtfull remarks about Ali though they remained friends.

I am obviously a Louis fan myself.

[janitor]

Well, Joe Louis was a bit of any Uncle Tom, but he had to be back in those days.


Louis was the right man at the right time.

The term "Uncle Tom" is used in a derogatory way by people who dont understand the story that the name comes from.

Uncle Tom is a black preacher who oposes slavery but hopes that by constructive engagment with the slave handlers he can make them chsee reason. When he refuses to condone the punishment of another slave he is flogged to death and the mistress of the house is so moved by his death that she frees all the slaves.

That unfortunately is a lot like Louis's story.

[Longhhorn71]

Not everyone. While this may be a bit off topic, some old time heavies felt Louis had poor defense, poor footwork, and could not feint. Harry Wills said the above on Louis.

Jack Johnson, he was a very selfish person who hated anyone stealing his limelight.

Muhammad Ali once called Joe Louis an Uncle Tom, and a liked to repeat the degratory slow ‘shuffling Joe Louis line.



Watch the 1970 movie "AKA Cassius Clay", and Ali is superimposed
over "shuffling Joe Louis" on film in the background....and Ali
is jawing about dancing and shuffling, etc.

Of course if Ali got tagged by Louis that the punches that Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, and Frazier landed, then he probably wouldn't have
gotten up.

Ali & Louis were both great fighters, it is all relative in the fans' eyes.

[Bummy Davis]

I know it can go both ways but luckilyAli did not have to face Joe;s HOOK and combo follow up, there wAS NO ONE aLI FOUGHT WHO HAD lOUIS'S HOOK AND COMBO FOLLOW UP

[red cobra]

Not everyone. While this may be a bit off topic, some old time heavies felt Louis had poor defense, poor footwork, and could not feint. Harry Wills said the above on Louis.

Jack Johnson, he was a very selfish person who hated anyone stealing his limelight.

Muhammad Ali once called Joe Louis an Uncle Tom, and a liked to repeat the degratory slow ‘shuffling Joe Louis line.


I remember Ali talking that stuff about "shufflin" Joe, and I'll say what I said on a previous recent post, and that's if you look at the filn of Louis against Max Baer in 1934 you'll see Louis as far more mobile at times, actually dancing around Baer before eventually ko'ing him. My point is that Louis may have abandoned that footwork that he was capable of simply because he was so successful in destroying his opponents, and started concentrating on just stalking his prey from then on. Louis was at his best all-around that night against Baer in my opinion.

[Vantage_West]

As for Muhammad Ali, I cannot believe how he's become linked with the 1960s "civil rights" or "black liberation" movements. He was Elijah Mohammed's disciple, PRO-seperation, PRO-racism. He went against Malcolm X when Malcolm started talking sense, and was opposed to all the liberal civil rights leaders like Martin Luther King Jr.

Ali's political views seemed to be pure Nation of Islam cult-worship, he had no affinity to the liberal civil rights (King etc.) nor with the radical "black power" (Panthers etc.)movements.

I'm sure those guys respected Ali for his big mouth and his defiance, but Ali was opposed to the new ways of thinking, he wanted SEGREGATION and he wanted RACISM. To him, whites and Jews were "devils", blacks who marry whites were sinners and traitors, and "Islam" and "righteousness" was whatever Elijah Mohammed said it was.

Basically Ali was a simple idiot.this maybe another thread but

ali is a man of many glaring inconsistancies.....just like my spelling

he seems like the peoples champion then is an arrogant self server who everybody hates
he is a brash talkin saying anything he wants to say then is told doctrines by elijah muhhamad.

even though he was in the N.O.I he still didnt get corrupted by it he kept it "his" version of the N.O.I.
in an interview the guy said somthing on the lines of what you got against white people? he said
"if there were a thousand snakes out there and only 100 were evil ...are you the one to open the door?"

and the thing about the civil rights. nah he was a big big influence he was a proud black man saying he was black champion and promoting black interests...this was the polar opposite of what king was saying. but it made the point that somthign had to change.

[Mendoza]

As an FYI, East Side Boxing's KSmith had some of the comments in the doc.