New MMA top 10 ATG thread

[jimmie]

When we first got this forum we all did a top 10 of the greatest fighters in MMA history and that was nearly 2 years ago a lot and I mean alot has changed example Rich Franklin was in a couple top 10s and since then hes been nearly killed twice or 3 times if u count him going to sleep at the end of the 1st round in the rematch vs Silva I doubt hes in top 10s anymore. Anyway lets do it agian but men make sure u put serious and deep thought into this. In this ive decided to do things like mention these mens best wins,skills there known for and what I consider to be their greatest win. Sure we all known what they have done but im bored.

1. Fedor Emelienko - Unbeaten Pride FC Heavyweight Champion,defeated everyone hes every competed with,notable wins over Mirko Cro Cop,Minotaro Nogueria 2x,Mark Coleman 2x,Kevin Randleman,Matt Lindland,Mark Hunt,Heath Herring,Ricardo Arona,Fujita. Famous for his heavy hands,slick armbar,Russian Sambo,chin and recover ability and his relaxed mental state. Best win id say is Mirko Cro Cop.

2. Randy Couture - 5 time UFC Champ in 2 different weights(Heavy and Light Heavy)UFC Hall of Famer,notable wins over Gabriel Gonzaga,Tim Sylvia,Chuck Liddell,Tito Ortiz,Vitor Belfort 2x,Maurice Smith,Jeremey Horn,Kevin Randleman,Pedro Rizzo 2x. Known for his incredible Greco-Roman Wrestling takedowns,ground and pound and cage tactics,good fighting brain and agressive pace. Best win the 1st Chuck Liddell fight.

3. Dan Henderson - Won the Brazil Open,a UFC tourney,a Rings tourney and the Pride Welterweight Grand Prix,1st Pride fighter to win Championships in 2 weight classes and hold them at the same time(Welterweight and Middleweight)notable wins over Minotauro Nogeruia,Carlos Newton,Gilbert Yvel,Wanderlei Silva,Murilo Bustamante,Renzo Gracie,Babalu Sobral,Ninja Ruo,Nakumura. Known for brutal overhand right,Olympic Greco-Roman Wrestling skills,Amazing chin and the willingess to fight anyone and anywhere. Best win Wanderlei Silva.

4. Chuck Liddell - Former longtime UFC Light Heavyweight Champ beat Wanderlei Silva,Babalu 2x,Randy Couture 2x,Tito Ortiz 2x,Guy Mezger,Kevin Randleman,Murilo Bustamante,Jeff Monson,Vitor Belfort,Jermey Horn,Alistair Overeem. Owns a brutal straight right and overhand right punch,power in his feet,footwork,looping lefthook power,legendary takedown defense. 3rd Randy Couture fight best win.

5. Minotaro Nogueria - The only man to every hold a Championship in both Pride and the UFC that being the Heayvweight Championship. Defeated the likes of Tim Sylvia,Mirko Cro Cop,Jermey Horn,Heath Herring 3x,Gary Goodridge,Mark Coleman,Dan Henderson,Ricco Rodriguez,Fabrico Wedrum,Josh Barnett. Possibly the best submission skills in Heayvweight history,hard chin and the ability to take incredible amounts of punishment and still win,solid boxing skills. Best win id go with Mirko Cro Cop even though he got beatup alot that was Nogueria doing what he does best taking a beating but pulling it out anyway.

6. BJ Penn - Former UFC Welterweight Champ and current Lightweight Champ,1 of only 6 men in UFC/Pride history to win atleast 2 Championships. Defeated Matt Hughes,Takanori Gomi,Caol Uno,Din Thomas,Renzo Gracie,Jens Pulver,Joe Stevenson,Matt Serra,Duane Ludwig. Best known for the best guard and maybe overall BJJ in MMA,heavy hands and knees,good wrestling skills and seemingly iron jaw. Best win 1st Matt Hughes fight.

7. Matt Hughes - 2 time UFC Welterweight Champ widely considered the companys most dominant Champ ever. Wins over Frank Trigg 2x,Carlos Newton 2x,GSP,BJ Penn,Royce Gracie,Joe Riggs,Churato Verrismo,Sean Sherk,Hayato Sakurai,Dave Menne,Joe Doerkson. Incredible slams and ground and pound,Jiu-Jitsu that seemed to improved year after year. Best win 2nd Carlos Newton fight.

8. Georges St.Pierre - Former UFC Welterweight Champ at only 26 has a whos whos list of wins over BJ Penn,Sean Sherk,Mayhem Miller,Frank Trigg,Josh Koscheck,Matt Hughes 2x,Karo Parysian. Top notch MMA style Kick-Boxing skills,Amazing Wrestling skills especially his shoot and nearly impossible to takedown. Best win 3rd Matt Hughes bout.

9. Bas Rutten - King of Pancrase and former UFC Heavyweight Champ. Wins over Kevin Randleman,Tsuyoshi Kohsaka,Funaki,Frank Shamrock 2x,Guy Mezger,Maurice Smith 2x. Amazing overall standup. Best win TK fight.

10. Wanderlei Silva - Former Pride Middleweight Champ defeated Rampage Jackson 2x,Dan Henderson,Ricardo Arona,Fujita,Yoshida 2x,Nakumura,Sakuraba 3x,Mirko Cro Cop,Guy Mezger. Well known for ruthless Muay Thai clinch skills,agressive boxing,soccer kicks and stomps,hard to do much in his guard,undeniable heart. Best victory the 1st Rampage destruction.

[Ubersteve]

Hendo should be above Couture for me. And what about Kid Yamamoto? Renzo Gracie?

[Dostoevsky]

No love for the classic MMA guys? Royce needs a shout out for his influence and accomplishments even if the skillset wasn't as high as it is now. And a top 10 list without Sakuraba and Fedor at 1? For shame.

[jimmie]

Hendo should be above Couture for me. And what about Kid Yamamoto? Renzo Gracie?

Henderson or Couture it dont matter to me number 2 is very close to me. Kids top 20 but no way top 10 yet maybe if he fights and beats Uriah Faber-Jens Pulver winner. Im a Renzo fan but what makes him top 10 his career was basically just a decent one best known for nearly having his arm ripped of by Sakuraba until he got some wins in 2006-07 over Frank,Newton and Miltech thats good but top 10 fuck no who does he replace ?

[jimmie]

No love for the classic MMA guys? Royce needs a shout out for his influence and accomplishments even if the skillset wasn't as high as it is now. And a top 10 list without Sakuraba and Fedor at 1? For shame.

Honestly im not showing much love for them aside from Bas Rutten. Thread title says ATG Royce isnt one in my opinon as he would and already has been rapped vs more well rounded MMA fighters in Sakuraba and Hughes. Whats wrong with Fedor at 1 for now ? If he continues fighting Zulu,Middleweights,pointless rematches,jolly green giants,guys coming off bad losses then yeah ill have to drop him for refusing the tough fights but for now he stays hes the most consistent MMA Champ ever while everyone falls at one time or another look at my other guys in the top 10 BJ dropped 3 of 4 once,Randy was picked off the canvas twice vs Liddell,Wanderleis been KOed even worse 3 different times in 3 different ways,Bas Rutten was Ken Shamrocks bitch,Henderson lost to a guy in Misaki he shouldnt lose to,Liddell is owned by Rampage and cant even beat Keith Jardine,Noguerias been the Arturo Gatti of MMA nearly been killed like 10 times just surving long enough for the other dude to gas and fuck up,Hughes cant beat Dennis Hallman for whatever reason and GSP is still Matt Serras only claim to fame besides a boring TV show. Fedor has never slipped up hes been the best for a good 4-5 years now. Sakuraba could go in but who the fuck do I force out ?

[ufoalf]

No love for the classic MMA guys? Royce needs a shout out for his influence and accomplishments even if the skillset wasn't as high as it is now. And a top 10 list without Sakuraba and Fedor at 1? For shame.

Who would you put at #1? Please justify.

[Ubersteve]

Henderson or Couture it dont matter to me number 2 is very close to me. Kids top 20 but no way top 10 yet maybe if he fights and beats Uriah Faber-Jens Pulver winner. Im a Renzo fan but what makes him top 10 his career was basically just a decent one best known for nearly having his arm ripped of by Sakuraba until he got some wins in 2006-07 over Frank,Newton and Miltech thats good but top 10 fuck no who does he replace ?

I meant Rickson, my mistake. :patsch

[chimba]

Wheres Frank and Tito???lol

Seriously Randys too high...Saku should be top 5. He changed MMA

[scurlaruntings]

No love for the classic MMA guys? Royce needs a shout out for his influence and accomplishments even if the skillset wasn't as high as it is now. And a top 10 list without Sakuraba and Fedor at 1? For shame.Classic.. what about Rei Zulu! His fable`ed to have had over 140 Vale Tudo fights undefeated. Plus he fought Rickson Gracie twice and was one of the TRUE founding fore fathers along with the Gracies in modern MMA.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

I don't think that St. Pierre should be on that list yet. I am sure he will be when he retires, but not yet.

[doefler182]

1. Bas Rutten
2. SAKURABA!
3. Frank Shamrock
4. Fedor
5. couture
6. Henderson
7. Royce gracie
8. Big Nog
9. chuck Liddell
10. Wandy/ Hughes

who could be in my top 10 pretty soon: A. Silva, St. Pierre, BJ Penn, Kid Yamamoto

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Also...

As bad ass as Bas is, he should be in the top 10 either.

[billyconn]

Rampage is 3-0 against #3 and #4 and he does not make the list.

Rampage has gotta be in that list.

[BewareofDawg]

I don't think that St. Pierre should be on that list yet. I am sure he will be when he retires, but not yet.
I think if Hughes is on there, St. Pierre should be. Look at the guys resume and he holds 2 out of 3 over Hughes. Hughes has the defenses and title reign, but against who? St. Pieerre has beaten just as good, if not better competition IMHO.

I'm not too strong on this point yet, but it is definitely true given Rush avenges his loss next month.

[billyconn]

Anderson Silva definitely over Bas Rutten....

[doefler182]

Also...

As bad ass as Bas is, he should be in the top 10 either.

why not?

he was champ in two big leagues: UFC and Pancrase

He beat just about everyone you could beat in old school pancrase

and he helped mma's reputation through announcing with the baddass-ness only he could do it with

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Mark Coleman not getting any love. Absolutely unstoppable in MMA until they changed the rules due to his dominance. Winner of 2 UFC Tournaments, The first ever UFC Heavyweight Champion, UFC Ultimate Ultimate Champion... and first ever Pride Grand Prix Champion. Came into the sport late, having already been in his 30's and so his staying power took a hit. However, even after he turned 40 years old he beat the 2005 fighter of the year in Shogun.

Also, he introduced the Ground -n- Pound into MMA.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

I think if Hughes is on there, St. Pierre should be. Look at the guys resume and he holds 2 out of 3 over Hughes. Hughes has the defenses and title reign, but against who? St. Pieerre has beaten just as good, if not better competition IMHO.

I'm not too strong on this point yet, but it is definitely true given Rush avenges his loss next month.
You can't look at things that way. That is like saying that Ken Norton should be at the top of the all time list because he beat Ali. McCall and Rahman should because they beat Lewis... doesn't work that way. Matt Hughes is at the end of his rope, and had beat GSP when he was a few years younger and closer to his prime. Hughes is on the list based on his own accomplishments throughout his long career. GSP is going to have to pave out his own path, and he is doing a great job so far. However, he isn't there yet.

[scurlaruntings]

Mark Coleman not getting any love. Absolutely unstoppable in MMA until they changed the rules due to his dominance. Winner of 2 UFC Tournaments, The first ever UFC Heavyweight Champion, UFC Ultimate Ultimate Champion... and first ever Pride Grand Prix Champion. Came into the sport late, having already been in his 30's and so his staying power took a hit. However, even after he turned 40 years old he beat the 2005 fighter of the year in Shogun.

Also, he introduced the Ground -n- Pound into MMA.I think the GnP may be Mark Kerrs distinction. Time to get Colemans cock out of your mouth:yep

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

why not?

he was champ in two big leagues: UFC and Pancrase

He beat just about everyone you could beat in old school pancrase

and he helped mma's reputation through announcing with the baddass-ness only he could do it with
I love Bas... but c'mon...:lol:

Pancrase only allowed open hand strikes, and submission attempts had to be broken once the other fighter made it to the ropes. It was more of a professional wrestling rules type of fight.. so that can be thrown out for the most part. Also, he normally split wins with the best guys in Pancrase, he didn't dominate them. Ken Shamrock beat him both times that they faced in pancrase... and as I said... Pancrase was just too much different than real MMA so it can only be used to a limited extent to explain a fighters worth in modern MMA.

In his few actual MMA fights, he looked very good against TK, but got a gift decision against Randleman. Everyone in their right mind knows that Randleman beat Rutten. That was about it other than his return fight.


I love Bas. Bad ass fighter, great commentator.... but he doesn't deserve to be in the top ten list.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

I think the GnP may be Mark Kerrs distinction. Time to get Colemans cock out of your mouth:yep
:think Mark Kerr didn't even enter MMA until Mark Coleman had already won UFC 10 and 11 tournaments and made the GnP extremely popular. Maybe it's time for you to do your research before you go spewing off at the mouth about something that you don't know.:yep

[doefler182]

I love Bas... but c'mon...:lol:

Pancrase only allowed open hand strikes, and submission attempts had to be broken once the other fighter made it to the ropes. It was more of a professional wrestling rules type of fight.. so that can be thrown out for the most part. Also, he normally split wins with the best guys in Pancrase, he didn't dominate them. Ken Shamrock beat him both times that they faced in pancrase... and as I said... Pancrase was just too much different than real MMA so it can only be used to a limited extent to explain a fighters worth in modern MMA.

In his few actual MMA fights, he looked very good against TK, but got a gift decision against Randleman. Everyone in their right mind knows that Randleman beat Rutten. That was about it other than his return fight.


I love Bas. Bad ass fighter, great commentator.... but he doesn't deserve to be in the top ten list.

We're goin to have to agree to disagree then here

because yes pancrase did have some diffrent rules but so does nearly every other promotion back before the unified rules became popular.

if you want to throw out someones wins just because of diffrent rules then i guess most pride fighters would lose their wins because they had different rules and no big org still uses them.

or atleast throw out all the wins they had using kicks to the head on the ground, stomps, and knees on the grounds.

and yes bas did split wins with frank but if you look at my list i got frank only a couple behind bas. and i would have ken up there but he did too many dumb things in his later career that pretty much ruined his resume.

[scurlaruntings]

:think Mark Kerr didn't even enter MMA until Mark Coleman had already won UFC 10 and 11 tournaments and made the GnP extremely popular. Maybe it's time for you to do your research before you go spewing off at the mouth about something that you don't know.:yepGeez your so highly strung. Be easy man dam. So while Coleman was doing it in the UFC Kerr was doing it in Vale Tudo tournys just under a year later. Both too boot were relatively uknown with Vale Tudo tournys being way more popular in Brazil since the 80`s.:roll:

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

We're goin to have to agree to disagree then here

because yes pancrase did have some diffrent rules but so does nearly every other promotion back before the unified rules became popular.

if you want to throw out someones wins just because of diffrent rules then i guess most pride fighters would lose their wins because they had different rules and no big org still uses them.

or atleast throw out all the wins they had using kicks to the head on the ground, stomps, and knees on the grounds.

and yes bas did split wins with frank but if you look at my list i got frank only a couple behind bas. and i would have ken up there but he did too many dumb things in his later career that pretty much ruined his resume.
That is fair, we can agree to disagree.

I think that we are making more out of this than needed. Bas Rutten is one of the best Pancrase fighters of all time. There is nothing wrong with that. If we are making a greatest Pancrase fighters of all time list, then he should be right at or near the top. However, we shouldn't throw pancrase in there with a traditional MMA all time list. We may as well start putting Olympic wrestlers in it.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Geez your so highly strung. Be easy man dam. So while Coleman was doing it in the UFC Kerr was doing it in Vale Tudo tournys just under a year later. Both too boot were relatively uknown with Vale Tudo tournys being way more popular in Brazil since the 80`s.:roll:
I am not high strung. When you make comments towards me about getting another man's dick out of my mouth, then you are going to get a response back like that. Coleman had won two UFC tournaments before Kerr entered MMA, and the GnP was made extremely popular by Coleman at that point... yet you argue that Kerr brought the GnP? Makes no sense. You have a problem with being wrong. You also have a problem with turning conversations personal by adding comments like you did.

[scurlaruntings]

I am not high strung. When you make comments towards me about getting another man's dick out of my mouth, then you are going to get a response back like that. Coleman had won two UFC tournaments before Kerr entered MMA, and the GnP was made extremely popular by Coleman at that point... yet you argue that Kerr brought the GnP? Makes no sense. You have a problem with being wrong. You also have a problem with turning conversations personal by adding comments like you did.O for fucks sake Widdow chill man dam. How long you been on this forum? Geez man get laid or something. This isnt about right wrong its called a diffrence of opinion. I said something in jest as for years you`ve been riding Colemans jock into the sunset..:tong

[BewareofDawg]

You can't look at things that way. That is like saying that Ken Norton should be at the top of the all time list because he beat Ali. McCall and Rahman should because they beat Lewis... doesn't work that way. Matt Hughes is at the end of his rope, and had beat GSP when he was a few years younger and closer to his prime. Hughes is on the list based on his own accomplishments throughout his long career. GSP is going to have to pave out his own path, and he is doing a great job so far. However, he isn't there yet.
It's nothing like the Norton Ali comparison, and definitely not the Lewis Rahman/McCall comparison. I made a point to state that GSP has already beaten a whos who and has one of the best WW resumes in the sport, if not the best. Watching their 3 fights, it is clear that GSP is the better fighter, he is better in every aspect. Even watching the first fight, you come away with the feeling that if they fought again GSP would win because he just appeared to be superior, only he made dumb dumb beginner mistake. Hughes has the deeper resume, he has proved that he can become Champ and stay champ. Hell GSP doesn't even have a successful title defense, I know that. But looking at the caliber of opponents they both beat and the manner in which they beat them. It isn't out of the question to put them on the same level. That is why the Norton Ali and Lewis Rahman/McCall comparisons are horse shit.

[BewareofDawg]

O for fucks sake Widdow chill man dam. How long you been on this forum? Geez man get laid or something. This isnt about right wrong its called a diffrence of opinion. I said something in jest as for years you`ve been riding Colemans jock into the sunset..:tong
I wanna see Widdow post a ":rofl " or a ":lol: " every once in a while. You know, have a little fun....

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

It's nothing like the Norton Ali comparison, and definitely not the Lewis Rahman/McCall comparison. I made a point to state that GSP has already beaten a whos who and has one of the best WW resumes in the sport, if not the best. Watching their 3 fights, it is clear that GSP is the better fighter, he is better in every aspect. Even watching the first fight, you come away with the feeling that if they fought again GSP would win because he just appeared to be superior, only he made dumb dumb beginner mistake. Hughes has the deeper resume, he has proved that he can become Champ and stay champ. Hell GSP doesn't even have a successful title defense, I know that. But looking at the caliber of opponents they both beat and the manner in which they beat them. It isn't out of the question to put them on the same level. That is why the Norton Ali and Lewis Rahman/McCall comparisons are horse shit.
You made your point. GSP has yet to have a successful title defense. He simply cannot be in the top 10 all time because he beat Hughes. Especially a Hughes who is at the end of his rope. I am not going to argue with you, because I have already seen the extent that you will go to in order to argue GSP into the ground, whether or not it makes sense.:good GSP is a great fighter, and I POSITIVE that by the end of his career, he will be securely in the top 10 of all time, maybe in the top 3. We don't need to rush things when he has only one title defense, and it was a loss.

[BewareofDawg]

You made your point. GSP has yet to have a successful title defense. He simply cannot be in the top 10 all time because he beat Hughes. Especially a Hughes who is at the end of his rope. I am not going to argue with you, because I have already seen the extent that you will go to in order to argue GSP into the ground, whether or not it makes sense.:good GSP is a great fighter, and I POSITIVE that by the end of his career, he will be securely in the top 10 of all time, maybe in the top 3. We don't need to rush things when he has only one title defense, and it was a loss.
Well look at the frigg'n guy! He's like a super-hero for christs sake :lol:

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

I wanna see Widdow post a ":rofl " or a ":lol: " every once in a while. You know, have a little fun....
I do that all of the time... in the lounge. I used to use them in the general forum, and MMA forum, until I realized that it takes away from the post. If you have a true point, it doesn't have to be riddled with those.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

O for fucks sake Widdow chill man dam. How long you been on this forum? Geez man get laid or something. This isnt about right wrong its called a diffrence of opinion. I said something in jest as for years you`ve been riding Colemans jock into the sunset..:tong

My point exactly. You wonder why you always end up in a "message board war" on this site. If you could state your points without resorting to childish remarks your posts would be better. I have a great sense of humor, and you would know that when reading my posts in the lounge. However, you use "being humorous", as a way to attack someone's character who you disagree with. That isn't needed.

Also, as stated before. This IS about right and wrong, not a difference of opinion. Hell, Mark Kerr would tell you that Coleman brought the GnP to MMA. Do you know why? Because he did, and everyone besides you seems to know it. It probably has something to do with Coleman becoming extremely popular for his GnP before Mark Kerr ever even began his MMA career.

[scurlaruntings]

My point exactly. You wonder why you always end up in a "message board war" on this site. If you could state your points without resorting to childish remarks your posts would be better. I have a great sense of humor, and you would know that when reading my posts in the lounge. However, you use "being humorous", as a way to attack someone's character who you disagree with. That isn't needed.

Also, as stated before. This IS about right and wrong, not a difference of opinion. Hell, Mark Kerr would tell you that Coleman brought the GnP to MMA. Do you know why? Because he did, and everyone besides you seems to know it. It probably has something to do with Coleman becoming extremely popular for his GnP before Mark Kerr ever even began his MMA career.Er Widdow you dont. Your a wrestling jock who gets his panties in a twist as soon as someone says something against Wrestlers or Vlad.Anyway be easy.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Er Widdow you dont. Your a wrestling jock who gets his panties in a twist as soon as someone says something against Wrestlers or Vlad.Anyway be easy.

Once again. You just can't stop doing it. Pretty sad.

Why do you think it is that you can't have a debate with someone, without throwing insults? Maybe you feel like your knowledge is inferior, and you have to attack the other person's character to try and knock them down to your level?

I am fine, and I don't take this board seriously. That doesn't mean that I won't speak the truth. It isn't as if this is something that I think about when I lay in bed at night.:lol:

[BewareofDawg]

Once again. You just can't stop doing it. Pretty sad.

Why do you think it is that you can't have a debate with someone, without throwing insults? Maybe you feel like your knowledge is inferior, and you have to attack the other person's character to try and knock them down to your level?

I am fine, and I don't take this board seriously. That doesn't mean that I won't speak the truth. It isn't as if this is something that I think about when I lay in bed at night.:lol:
I had a dream about ESB one night. Fucked with my head for a while, had to take some time off :lol:

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

I had a dream about ESB one night. Fucked with my head for a while, had to take some time off :lol:
:lol: Probably not a good sign.:good

Don't get me wrong, I really like this message board, and I love a good debate. I don't hold grudges though, as you will see me backing up a person on one thread, that I am arguing with on another. It's just the natural of this virtual life.

[BewareofDawg]

1. anderson silva
2. fedor
3. dan henderson
4. rampage.
5. the natural
:lol: Maybe talent, skill and ability. MAYBE. But lets not get carried away just yet.

[scurlaruntings]

Once again. You just can't stop doing it. Pretty sad.

Why do you think it is that you can't have a debate with someone, without throwing insults? Maybe you feel like your knowledge is inferior, and you have to attack the other person's character to try and knock them down to your level?

I am fine, and I don't take this board seriously. That doesn't mean that I won't speak the truth. It isn't as if this is something that I think about when I lay in bed at night.:lol:Ok. But i got the last word wrestling jock:hi:

[jimmie]

Widdows good people Scur just lay off him you know he has a mancrush on Mark Coleman its ok.

[WiDDoW_MaKeR]

Widdows good people Scur just lay off him you know he has a mancrush on Mark Coleman its ok.
It isn't that. I have trained with other people as well. I don't claim them to be up there. It's just when you have a guy who is the pioneer of GnP, two tournament UFC Champion, the Ultimate Ultimate Champion, the first UFC heavyweight Champion, and the first Grand Prix winner.... I think that he deserves a mention.

[Beebs]

Geez your so highly strung. Be easy man dam. So while Coleman was doing it in the UFC Kerr was doing it in Vale Tudo tournys just under a year later. Both too boot were relatively uknown with Vale Tudo tournys being way more popular in Brazil since the 80`s.:roll:

Kerr trained under Coleman and fought after him, and the actual term was first widely used to describe Coleman the credit goes to Coleman.

[scurlaruntings]

Widdows good people Scur just lay off him you know he has a mancrush on Mark Coleman its ok.:yep Im just ribbing him. Colemans all good in my book;)

[chimba]

You can't look at things that way. That is like saying that Ken Norton should be at the top of the all time list because he beat Ali. McCall and Rahman should because they beat Lewis... doesn't work that way. Matt Hughes is at the end of his rope, and had beat GSP when he was a few years younger and closer to his prime. Hughes is on the list based on his own accomplishments throughout his long career. GSP is going to have to pave out his own path, and he is doing a great job so far. However, he isn't there yet.

Wow what a bad analogy to Norton. GSP beat better fighters than Matt Hughes period. I can make the same argument that GSP was green when Hughes beat him the first time.

This is MMA..things evolve fast since the sport is so young..GSP is a better fighter H2H than Hughes..He is a new breed of fighter, a more well rounded fighter. No one in 10 years will consider Hughes a better fighter than GSP, no one.

Since Im looking at this objectively..I agree with you that Hughes should be above GSP at the moment but below BJ.