So, if there was a Super Heavyweight Division...

[Russell]

What would you make the cut off point for weight?

Do you feel it would be a good idea?

Why or why not?

[Mendoza]

What would you make the cut off point for weight?

Do you feel it would be a good idea?

Why or why not?

Bad idea. A super heavyweight divison would cut the talent in half, and ruin the history of the heavyweight divison. We don't 4 super heavyweight champions and 4 heavyweight champions. That would be a mess. The title fights would be even worse.

Some beleive that such a divison is needed for the fighters under 210 pounds, but over 200 pounds. My suggestion to these guys is drop the weight, then re-hydrate like the lower weight classes do.

There may come a time when the heavyweight top ten is full of fighters Wlad's size and skills, and ranked guys under 225 pounds are rare.

If this happens, then I am for a creation of a super heavyweight divison. As it stands right now, Fighters in the 220's can be highly ranked or the #1 fighter in the divison.

I don't think we will see a heavyweight champion under 210 pounds in the next 10 years, but as I said before this guy can easily make weight at crusier weight. This is not to say a 200-210 pound fighter can't beat the best heavyweight out there. He can. But he's going to need good power, good skills, and a good chin.

[joekirkbycobra]

when your that size weight doesnt make a massive difference and for the ones that it does they could proberly boil down to cruiser

[fists of fury]

IF there were to be such a division (and I strongly disagree with it) then I suppose the minimum weight would be about 215-220 lbs.

Of course, all it would mean is some undisciplined boxer that should weigh 218coming in at a fat, barely-trained 250 for the new division.

[Lobotomy]

Suggestions along these lines have been occasionally made over the decades. During Carnera's heyday, the establishment of a so-called "dreadnought" division was famously proposed.

For the last few decades, it's been periodically supposed that no sub 200 pounder would ever again become a heavyweight champion. The Spinks brothers and RJJ have come along to scuttle that notion, and with the frequent dearths of talent at the top echelons of the heavyweights, it's guaranteed to happen again. A youthful Toney, in peak shape, absolutely could have feasibly been the number one HW for an extended period. (How much do you suppose he'd weigh, if his bodyfat was knocked down to, say, 5%? Do you believe that a 27 year old Toney in that kind of condition would be an inferior heavyweight to the bloated weeble who has competed well in that division at the age he actually has?)

Not only do I think there's no cause to install yet another division, I feel that cruiserweight is a bastard division which should be scrapped. It would hardly be missed.

[radianttwilight]

[quote=Lobotomy]Suggestions along these lines have been occasionally made over the decades. During Carnera's heyday, the establishment of a so-called "dreadnought" division was famously proposed.

For the last few decades, it's been periodically supposed that no sub 200 pounder would ever again become a heavyweight champion. The Spinks brothers and RJJ have come along to scuttle that notion, and with the frequent dearths of talent at the top echelons of the heavyweights, it's guaranteed to happen again. A youthful Toney, in peak shape, absolutely could have feasibly been the number one HW for an extended period. (How much do you suppose he'd weigh, if his bodyfat was knocked down to, say, 5%? Do you believe that a 27 year old Toney in that kind of condition would be an inferior heavyweight to the bloated weeble who has competed well in that division at the age he actually has?)
quote]

A 200-225lb weight class would do good for the division - it would encourage many of the bigger guys to train harder to get their weight under a limit, which might end with the overweight walrus show of today.

RJJ and Michael, much less Leon Spinks were not the exceptions that proved the rule. Lennox Lewis would've KILLED RJJ if they fought, Spinks did indeed get demolished by the first great HW he fought, and Leon was an absolute joke that got lucky to steal his belt from a corpse.

RJJ was a phenom, yes, but any great heavyweight of a larger frame would paste him.

[ChrisPontius]

For the last few decades, it's been periodically supposed that no sub 200 pounder would ever again become a heavyweight champion.

Periodically? You mean twice in 30 years time?


The Spinks brothers and RJJ have come along to scuttle that notion, and with the frequent dearths of talent at the top echelons of the heavyweights, it's guaranteed to happen again.

Jones had a great total of one fight against the least dangerous opponent. Nobody really gave him a chance against some of the bigger, harder punching guys like Lennox Lewis or the Klitschko's. And apparantly, neither did Jones, because he went right back to LHW. As for the Spinks brothers, Leon beat a geriatric Ali once (who shouldn't have been champion in the first place after losing to Norton III and Young) but went on to compile a journeyman's record. Michael, as great a LHW as he is, didn't do much at HW either. He beat an out of shape Holmes once, but despite Holmes being 36, still lost the rematch on a fair scorecard. Not to mention what happened when he faced a great heavyweight.


A youthful Toney, in peak shape, absolutely could have feasibly been the number one HW for an extended period.

That's a bit of a stretch, considering he couldn't even be the number one MW, LHW or CW for an extended period!


(How much do you suppose he'd weigh, if his bodyfat was knocked down to, say, 5%? Do you believe that a 27 year old Toney in that kind of condition would be an inferior heavyweight to the bloated weeble who has competed well in that division at the age he actually has?)

And how well do you think the Toney that got knocked down by Johnson or Jones is going to take Peter's, Rahman's or Klitschko's punches? Why do you think he declined a Klitschko fight offer, from both of them on different occasions when he was in desperate need for one?
Probably the result of the fight would resemble your nickname.


Not only do I think there's no cause to install yet another division, I feel that cruiserweight is a bastard division which should be scrapped. It would hardly be missed.

I agree, a SHW division wouldn't add much. However, the cruiserweight division is very interesting today. Haye, Mormeck, Maccarinelli, Bell, Cunningham and Adamek are all interesting fighters and they fight each other.

Without the cruiserweight division, there is a gigantic gap between light heavyweight and heavyweight. Times have changed; heavyweights are no longer around 190lbs.

[Langford]

i don't think that boxing in general needs to be diluted any further. There are a lot of heavyweight fighters who could easily train down below 200lbs, they would be fighting at a proposed superheavy limit anyway, but if they did so they would have to add on needless and pointless weight in order to do it.

Looking at recent history (we will say 25 years)
you had
holmes at 220
Spinks at a weight trained 200
Tyson at a peak of 220
Holyfield at a weight trained 215
Moorer at a weight trained 215

Douglas at 230
Bowe at 235
Lewis at 240
Wlad at 240

And it is entirely possible that Ibragimov, Povetkin could do well against Wlad.

If the division has nobody as its top guy below 235 for the next 15 years maybe then we can talk. I don't see that dominance above that weight has been established.

I think a better agrument can be made for the return of 15 round championship rounds, causing more fighters to increase cardio training and lose some pounds.

[Mendoza]

Periodically? You mean twice in 30 years time?


Jones had a great total of one fight against the least dangerous opponent. Nobody really gave him a chance against some of the bigger, harder punching guys like Lennox Lewis or the Klitschko's. And apparantly, neither did Jones, because he went right back to LHW. As for the Spinks brothers, Leon beat a geriatric Ali once (who shouldn't have been champion in the first place after losing to Norton III and Young) but went on to compile a journeyman's record. Michael, as great a LHW as he is, didn't do much at HW either. He beat an out of shape Holmes once, but despite Holmes being 36, still lost the rematch on a fair scorecard. Not to mention what happened when he faced a great heavyweight.


That's a bit of a stretch, considering he couldn't even be the number one MW, LHW or CW for an extended period!


And how well do you think the Toney that got knocked down by Johnson or Jones is going to take Peter's, Rahman's or Klitschko's punches? Why do you think he declined a Klitschko fight offer, from both of them on different occasions when he was in desperate need for one?

I agree, a SHW division wouldn't add much. However, the cruiserweight division is very interesting today. Haye, Mormeck, Maccarinelli, Bell, Cunningham and Adamek are all interesting fighters and they fight each other.

Without the cruiserweight division, there is a gigantic gap between light heavyweight and heavyweight. Times have changed; heavyweights are no longer around 190lbs.

I agree with all of these points.

[radianttwilight]

There will be a day when a new weight class for superheavies is established, no doubt.

Just as the ~190lb heavyweights of the pre-Liston area have been replaced by the 200+ heavyweights of the 1960s and 1970s who were then in turn replaced by the 220+ superheavyweights of the 1980s to present, big men are getting more and more skilled.

It may take fifty years, but the average size of contender-level heavyweights will eventually reach the Lewis/Klitschko level.

[Langford]

the idea of heavyweight champions ever really being below 200lbs is kind of a myth. Plus, with modern training (and knowing that they would be fighting larger guys where keeping on weight would be a benefit) I think you could safely add more than a couple of lbs to more than a couple previous fighters.

[Russell]

i don't think that boxing in general needs to be diluted any further. There are a lot of heavyweight fighters who could easily train down below 200lbs, they would be fighting at a proposed superheavy limit anyway, but if they did so they would have to add on needless and pointless weight in order to do it.

Looking at recent history (we will say 25 years)
you had
holmes at 220
Spinks at a weight trained 200
Tyson at a peak of 220
Holyfield at a weight trained 215
Moorer at a weight trained 215

Douglas at 230
Bowe at 235
Lewis at 240
Wlad at 240



220 seems a little high for Tyson.

[Dempsey1238]

I am in favor of a 300 pound weight divsion. Who is with me.

[Russell]

*Raises Hand*

COOOOOOOREY T-REX SANNNNDERS.

[Langford]

220 seems a little high for Tyson.

not really. he fought some of his best fights within a couple of pounds of that.

[Russell]

I was always under the impression he was best at 215 to 220.

Up to five pounds below the weight that was mentioned.

[Langford]

I was always under the impression he was best at 215 to 220.

Up to five pounds below the weight that was mentioned.


okay, we'll call it 217.5 lbs as being more of an ideal weight.

[Russell]

Heh, not trying to bicker, just saying.

He was 215 against Spinks and some feel that was his best ever performance.

[Langford]

Heh, not trying to bicker, just saying.

He was 215 against Spinks and some feel that was his best ever performance.


218 1/4 vs. Spinks. But I heard he put on another 1 and 3/4s at the Atlantic City Buffet before the fight. :nut

[Russell]

Boxrec says 215 1/2

[Langford]

Boxrec says 215 1/2

brotha, now you just gettin silly.

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[Lobotomy]

Jones had a great total of one fight against the least dangerous opponent.Yes, an opponent who was able to deck HolyfieldAnd how well do you think the Toney that got knocked down by Johnson or Jones is going to take Peter's punches?Huh? Are we discussing the same Toney who went 12 rounds with Peter TWICE in real life? Toney was weakened by having to make the weight against RJJ, but went the distance anyway, and he beat Johnson.Probably the result of the fight would resemble your nickname.Well, after 24 rounds with Peter, he still seems to have all his marbles. The fact is that he did go in for a rematch with Peter, who most predicted would break Toney in half before their first tiff. If Toney was at his best weight, not under or overweight, and at his peak age, then yes, I believe he would be strong enough to manage quite well among the heavyweights while under 200 himself. If he had the weight control discipline of an SRL, he could have posed serious problems for many plodding behemoths polluting the heavyweight ranks.I agree, a SHW division wouldn't add much. However, the cruiserweight division is very interesting today. Haye, Mormeck, Maccarinelli, Bell, Cunningham and Adamek are all interesting fighters and they fight each other.

Without the cruiserweight division, there is a gigantic gap between light heavyweight and heavyweight. Times have changed; heavyweights are no longer around 190lbs.Times will change again, as smaller speedsters begin to realize how easily they can outmaneuver and outcoordinate 250 pound tanks with superior conditioning and quickness. Huge heavyweights also make for huge targets.

[Lobotomy]

I agree with all of these points.So you agree that Toney would never be able to stand up to Peter's attack, that he'd get instantly crushed, immediately out of the gate, and want no more of Peter after stepping in the ring with him once?

[McGrain]

Burns KO9 Klitschko.

[Lobotomy]

Burns KO9 Klitschko.:good

[Lobotomy]

I am in favor of a 300 pound weight divsion. Who is with me.I think a Sumo Division would be an excellent idea. Butterbean would no longer have to weaken himself to make weight.(Remember that he acquired that name because he had to eat a diet of chicken and butterbeans for two weeks to get his weight down from 420 pounds to the Toughman competition limit of 400.)

[Sonny's jab]

If they want to add YET ANOTHER weight division, then they should lower cruiserweight back down to 190, and put the new division at 200, 205 or 210.

But I think we need LESS divisions, not more. Go back to the eight traditional weight divisions - fly (112), bantam(118 ), feather(126), light(135), welter(147), middle(160), light-heavy(175) and heavy (open to all).

[ChrisPontius]

Huh? Are we discussing the same Toney who went 12 rounds with Peter TWICE in real life? Toney was weakened by having to make the weight against RJJ, but went the distance anyway, and he beat Johnson.Well, after 24 rounds with Peter, he still seems to have all his marbles. The fact is that he did go in for a rematch with Peter, who most predicted would break Toney in half before their first tiff. If Toney was at his best weight, not under or overweight, and at his peak age, then yes, I believe he would be strong enough to manage quite well among the heavyweights while under 200 himself. If he had the weight control discipline of an SRL, he could have posed serious problems for many plodding behemoths polluting the heavyweight ranks.


It's too bad that Toney's name can never be brought up in one sentence without three "if's" in that very same sentence. Here are some more if's for you: If Toney couldn't get by Griffin, Thadzi (spelling), Tiberi, how is he going to fare against heavyweights?

A lot of people, myself included, think that while he was overweight at 220+lbs, the extra mass certainly helped him absorb those big shots and prevented him from being shoved around like a 170lbs man would've been.

I have to admit, though, that i didn't expect Toney to last against Peter. The first time because i thought he couldn't take those big punches and the second time because Peter just couldn't miss him in the rematch.

That said, Toney may well be one of the most durable fighters, EVER. pound for pound.



Times will change again, as smaller speedsters begin to realize how easily they can outmaneuver and outcoordinate 250 pound tanks with superior conditioning and quickness. Huge heavyweights also make for huge targets.

Really? They had thirty years to realize how they could easily outmaneuver and outcoordinate 250 tanks, but at this very day, the result is nothing because all the top guys are big heavyweights.


By the way, i liked you better when you were posting under the name Duodenum. ;) What happened?!

[Dempsey1238]

Back than if Micky Walker wanted to fight heavyweight with out gainin weight, he had the RIGHT to choose so. Today, James Toney gains weight just to make the "Weight". I say if a middleweight "Wants" to fight heavyweight witu out gaining weight, he has that choice.

[DamonD]

Usually it gets talked about when there is a very big guy doing well in the divison. Like a cry for help because of some big, bad bully coming along and picking on the little guys.

I guess the counter point would be that all the superheavies of note have lost to smaller, lighter guys than themselves.

A typical superheavy will also have his own problems and deficiencies to overcome due to his large size and long limbs - footwork, coordination, handspeed, stamina and so on.

To be honest I think it pretty much levels out, and doesn't necessitate a SHW divison.

[Mendoza]

If they want to add YET ANOTHER weight division, then they should lower cruiserweight back down to 190, and put the new division at 200, 205 or 210.

But I think we need LESS divisions, not more. Go back to the eight traditional weight divisions - fly (112), bantam(118 ), feather(126), light(135), welter(147), middle(160), light-heavy(175) and heavy (open to all).

I agree. We need less divisons. Why not go to the 11 weight classes in the amateur divisons?




Men's Weight Divisions

Light Flyweight 48kg =105.6
Flyweight 51kg = 112.2
Bantamweight 54kg = 118.8
Featherweight 57kg = 125.4
Lightweight 60kg = 132
Light Welterweight 64kg = 140.8
Welterweight 69 kg = 151.8
Middleweight 75 kg = 165
Light Heavyweight 81 kg = 178.2
Heavyweight ( call it crusier weight ) 91 kg = 200
Super Heavyweight 91 kg +201+

[AnthonyJ74]

okay, we'll call it 217.5 lbs as being more of an ideal weight.

LOL....I don't see a difference between 217 and 220 for Tyson. What does three or four pounds mean? You can't even see a difference of three or four pounds. But Tyson was a big heavyweight if you really look at his stats. I mean, Tyson weighed about the same as George Foreman did when he won the title from Frazier - 217 - but Tyson is about 4"-5" inches shorter than George. And Tyson didnt have hardly any fat on him, either. Tyson at 220 looked a lot better than Joe Frazier did at the same weight!