Is Heart The Single Most Important Attribute If A Fighter Is To Become An ATG?

[McGrain]

Not good, not a champ, an ATG? Can a fighter become and ATG without great heart?

[Scorpion]

I dont think so.

[JohnThomas1]

Great question, and i have an interesting tidbit to add. The tidbit is all about fine lines.

First off let me say i am not saying RJJ lacked heart, or had it in spades. Now surely most would regard him as an ATG, surely. Now if we look thru 95% his career it is possible to say that he got hit so few times and struggled so little that it would be possible for a sensationally talented fighter to get to ATG status without having to have his heart severely tested.

Remember, this is theoretical and not an opinion of whether Jones had heart or not. Maybe if pressed he might have shown the heart of a lion, but i think he is a good scenario that a fighter as talented as he might be able to do it.

Getting back to your question in proper tho, it probably is the most important yes. There would be very very few exceptions to the rule. Look at how many times Holmes came of the floor or from big trouble. Look at what Ali got past in some fights to pull them out. Look at Saad (some might think him borderline ATG, not sure), his reputation is built on heart. Look at Leonard vs Duran, balls to the wall for both.

Heart, while not quite 100 pre-requisite, would be right at the top of my list unless i see good enough debate in here to swing me.

[Pat_Lowe]

Great question, and i have an interesting tidbit to add. The tidbit is all about fine lines.

First off let me say i am not saying RJJ lacked heart, or had it in spades. Now surely most would regard him as an ATG, surely. Now if we look thru 95% his career it is possible to say that he got hit so few times and struggled so little that it would be possible for a sensationally talented fighter to get to ATG status without having to have his heart severely tested.

Remember, this is theoretical and not an opinion of whether Jones had heart or not. Maybe if pressed he might have shown the heart of a lion, but i think he is a good scenario that a fighter as talented as he might be able to do it.

Getting back to your question in proper tho, it probably is the most important yes. There would be very very few exceptions to the rule. Look at how many times Holmes came of the floor or from big trouble. Look at what Ali got past in some fights to pull them out. Look at Saad (some might think him borderline ATG, not sure), his reputation is built on heart. Look at Leonard vs Duran, balls to the wall for both.

Heart, while not quite 100 pre-requisite, would be right at the top of my list unless i see good enough debate in here to swing me.

Agree with what you said, except that I think Jones jr proved his heart in the ring. Sure outside the ring he may have been cautious to fight certain boxers or he was a prick to negotiate with but his first fight against Tarver sealed the deal on his heart. He put his chin out there in that fight and he was hit, but when he got to the championship rounds and the fight was hanging, he pulled through and won them.

[JohnThomas1]

Agree with what you said, except that I think Jones jr proved his heart in the ring. Sure outside the ring he may have been cautious to fight certain boxers or he was a prick to negotiate with but his first fight against Tarver sealed the deal on his heart. He put his chin out there in that fight and he was hit, but when he got to the championship rounds and the fight was hanging, he pulled through and won them.

No argument Pat, i was certainly not saying Jones didn't have heart, but pointing out that a fighter of the same or potentially even more talent could concievably reach this lofty status without a genuine heart check. For instance, if Jones never fought Tarver and retired right before fight 1 he may have indeed reached the heights without having to prove his heart in Tarver 1. As you point out, this was the fight he knuckled down in, and many will agree he was ATG if he retired right prior to it.

[salsanchezfan]

I would say yes, but not for the reasons that may immediately spring to mind.

It takes heart to put yourself through the grind and better yourself to that level. Many also-rans have had more natural talent than many greats, the difference being that fortitude and will to succeed. This could easily be translated to heart.

Basically, it goes beyond merely taking a beating and coming back in an actual fight.

[Duodenum]

JT, the notion of RJJ as a potential exception to the rule had occurred to me when I spotted the title of this thread, but you've addressed it far better than I could.

From my peculiar perspective, dedication and discipline through the training process usually necessary to become an ATG requires heart, in and of itself. Then, the old addage, "The harder you work, the harder it is to surrender," comes into play. Greater sacrifices and effort equate into greater determination and resolve. (Of course one can pass the threshold between building the body up, and breaking it down. Overtraining doesn't do any good either.) Peak physical conditioning is enormously crucial to withstanding or recovering from a heavy shot.

Maintaining a high level of fitness is what kept Patterson and Carnera getting up from devastating knockdowns, despite being chinny. (In my opinion, Floyd is a worthy HOFer.)

Ray Arcel's comment that Duran would rather fight than eat, leads me to wonder whether fighting spirit is the same as heart. Greb, Walker and Duran started out doing it because they loved it. SRR didn't pursue boxing as an end in itself, but as a means to reach another objective, the same success in show business that Max Baer sought after the Frankie Campbell tragedy. Foreman's comeback was also fueled by ulterior motives. (On the other hand, if it hadn't been for Duran's car accident, Roberto might still be competing.)

Can Max Baer be considered an ATG?

[brooklyn1550]

Yes

[Boilermaker]

When you are going from great fighter to all time great, you need heart. Not just the ability to fight back from a knockdown, but the ability to absorb punishment and still fire back. When fighting other greats, 9 out of 10 it will get down to an absolute war and you will be put in a life and death situations. If the opponent is an all time great, you will bet he will have a struggle on your hands no matter how good you are.

Look at Ali, Arguably the fastest ever, As good a chin as anyone, extremely powerful, yet without heart, he would have lost to Cooper and maybe never got a shot, Never come back from the Norton broken jaw, never beaten Frazier, never hung tough and beat Foreman. In fact, he would have been just a good to average fighter even with all his great attributes.

[punchy]

It is an important elelment but if you don't have the physical talent all the heart in the world won't make up for it.

[McGrain]

Great question, and i have an interesting tidbit to add. The tidbit is all about fine lines.

First off let me say i am not saying RJJ lacked heart, or had it in spades. Now surely most would regard him as an ATG, surely. Now if we look thru 95% his career it is possible to say that he got hit so few times and struggled so little that it would be possible for a sensationally talented fighter to get to ATG status without having to have his heart severely tested.

Excellent stuff.

[McGrain]

yes, but not for the reasons that may immediately spring to mind.

It takes heart to put yourself through the grind and better yourself to that level. Many also-rans have had more natural talent than many greats, the difference being that fortitude and will to succeed. This could easily be translated to heart.

Yes, I agree with this, I think that drag is constantly underated.

[TBooze]

Not good, not a champ, an ATG? Can a fighter become and ATG without great heart?

Kind of, to me the biggest intanagable is 'redemption' and to gain redemption you normally need a mighty good ticker.

[thunder06]

i believe heart and courage is every bit as rare as great boxing ability.

[McGrain]

i believe heart and courage is every bit as rare as great boxing ability.

I agree with you. It's probably rarer.

Studies have shown that there is a 1% of the population that just don't experience fear like the rest of us. They'd be taken out in the wild but because they're in protected society they get on OK. I don't think that these people would do particularly well as top drawer boxers. I think mastering the fear and overcoming the desire to lay down is part of the process for approaching greatness. But JT1 makes some excellent points about very special fighters in this regard.

[fists of fury]

Mmmmm...good question. I'd say yes.
If we draw up any ATG list, all or virtually all the names on that list will have great heart.
I suppose being an ATG, a fighter will be at the very least good at everything, and have the required intangibles as well, so an ATG fighter almost by qualification in addition to other factors needs an ATG heart too.

So for the most part, yes. There are exceptions to the rule though. JT's example (Jones) and Tyson spring to mind. You could also mention someone like Liston who had possibly the potential of an ATG, but his heart wasn't made of English Oak either.

PS-is there a difference between heart and pride?

[McGrain]

PS-is there a difference between heart and pride?

Yeah, pride alone would carry Ali pretty far v Frazier in Manilla but he is chipping into rock by round 11. Heart is the tool you use down there.

[fists of fury]

Nice answer.

[McGrain]

Nice answer.

Thanks.

[SugarRay]

Not good, not a champ, an ATG? Can a fighter become and ATG without great heart?

Anyone who steps into the ring has to have a bit of heart. Bascially, they are putting their lives on the line. The question is how much?

Someone mentioned that RJJ's heart may not have severely tested but, i disagree. His heart was tested in the griffin rematch. He was putting himself at risk by opening up looking for the KO, which he managed to get.

But, to answer your question. Yes, I think heart will get you there as well as smarts. Those on the ATG list weren't exactly dumb either.

[JohnThomas1]

JT, the notion of RJJ as a potential exception to the rule had occurred to me when I spotted the title of this thread, but you've addressed it far better than I could.


I don't know about that, you've hammered out some compelling stuff and certainly don't shirk explaining in length.

The rest of your post makes one think too, that's for sure.

[JohnThomas1]

Look at Ali, Arguably the fastest ever, As good a chin as anyone, extremely powerful, yet without heart, he would have lost to Cooper and maybe never got a shot, Never come back from the Norton broken jaw, never beaten Frazier, never hung tough and beat Foreman. In fact, he would have been just a good to average fighter even with all his great attributes.

Just a comment if i may, every fight you mention excepting Cooper features an Ali whose freakish attributes had lessened. Definitely not the same man who beat Liston with surprising ease. Many would claim at least Frazier however would always test his mettle at any stage.

[JohnThomas1]

Someone mentioned that RJJ's heart may not have severely tested but, i disagree. His heart was tested in the griffin rematch. He was putting himself at risk by opening up looking for the KO, which he managed to get.


:blood

Going by this criteria pretty much every fighter ever to box has heart. The fight only lasted 2 and 1/2 minutes. Again tho, i'm not saying Roy didn't have heart, but i don't think this is valid proof. Tarver 1 would be a fair sample depending on whom you talk to.

[SugarRay]

:blood

Going by this criteria pretty much every fighter ever to box has heart. The fight only lasted 2 and 1/2 minutes. Again tho, i'm not saying Roy didn't have heart, but i don't think this is valid proof. Tarver 1 would be a fair sample depending on whom you talk to.

That's true. Anyone who steps into the ring has heart. As I said, it's a matter of how much heart. Would you fight Montell, Hopkins, or Toney?

[Bummy Davis]

Well, the heart of a champion has always been a factor with the all time greats and a lot of fighter who could have been ATgreat suffered because of there lack of it. An ATG gets off the floor to win and overcomes adversity with heart,Louis, Marciano,Ali,Dempsey,Foreman,Frazier,Tunney have all done this

[JohnThomas1]

That's true. Anyone who steps into the ring has heart. As I said, it's a matter of how much heart. Would you fight Montell, Hopkins, or Toney?

For whatever purse Roy got? I'm damn sure i would, the hospital bills wouldn't be that much.

I get your point and do agree whoever steps into the ring has great heart for sure, but we're talking the best of the best here and comparing them to their peers (not John Doe/Thomas on the street), splitting hairs if need be. A Camacho isn't going to be put on e level with Saad or Chacon, for example.

[SugarRay]

For whatever purse Roy got? I'm damn sure i would, the hospital bills wouldn't be that much.

I get your point and do agree whoever steps into the ring has great heart for sure, but we're talking the best of the best here and comparing them to their peers (not John Doe/Thomas on the street), splitting hairs if need be. A Camacho isn't going to be put on e level with Saad or Chacon, for example.

Yeah, true...I know what you are on about. Jones fought guys much bigger than him and those who could knock him out. Whilst it is not apparent (on face value) that his heart may not have been severly tested. I believe it has by taking some of the fights he took. Sometimes it takes more than a champion's heart to get up from a vicious punch like the one from Taver. That was a massive left hook. Ability to absorb punishment helps.

I seem to recall a line from The Power of One (the movie/book that got me started in boxing)... First, with the head and then with the heart. So, yeah a heart of a champion is required for sure.

[Vantage_West]

you can be an atg with or without the skills power speed heart doesnt matter what velocity it's your wins and your fighting instinct.

[Duodenum]

I don't know about that, you've hammered out some compelling stuff and certainly don't shirk explaining in length.Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm all too well aware my posts ramble on way longer than necessary, but I'll be working on becoming more succinct. (Along with improving my poor grammar and punctuation.)The rest of your post makes one think too, that's for sure.Sometimes, a boxer's heart isn't tested until he's spiraling into decline, due to age, or lack of legitimate competition.

Some boxers are so gifted, that at their peak nobody they confront succeeds in challenging their resolve in the face of adversity.

Although Salvador Sanchez did get off the deck in drawing with Juan Escobar, it could be argued that Sal's record should have been 46-0 when he met his untimely passing. (His only official loss was by 12 round SD.) His conditioning was so flawless that nobody was really able to test him in a genuine high profile trial by fire. He frequently came from behind to overtake his opponents, but this was largely due to patience based upon the confidence that he was in better condition than his adversaries, and would overtake them over 15 rounds. (Sal was among the final great 15 round champions boxing produced, one whose legacy would have been severely truncated by this current 12 round limit garbage.)

For a boxer with vastly superior abilities, a Catch-22 situation occurs. What would RJJ's ATG status be, if he retired after decisioning Mike McCallum, or even John Ruiz? Would he rate above SRR? But critics would have then said, "We never found out how he would have handled a true crisis situation."

For Murray Woroner's staged superfight between Marciano and Ali, Nat Fleischer declared in the preamble that, "Muhammad Ali has not proved to me that he is a great fighter. In my opinion, he is the fastest heavyweight champion in boxing history, but he hasn't demonstrated that he is a great one," or words to that effect.

Fleischer was correct. As of 1969, nobody had really tested Ali's heart in a war of attrition. (After the FOTC, questions about Ali's heart were answered.) Is it indeed necessary for a boxer to get beaten up to prove his greatness? In that instance, critics would use such an occasion to denigrate that competitor. If, on the other hand, he retires without anybody having been good enough to test him, then we are left questioning how good he really was, because of the belief that the true measure of a man can only be taken when he is surpassed by defeat, in fighting the unbeatable foe. (The Don Quixote Syndrome.)

How many competitors deliberately set out to find an adversary that their very best effort will fail against, just to test how good they really are, by not prevailing? Arguello's first match against Pryor is a case in point for both participants. We discovered what an awesome level of performance was necessary to definitively overcome Alexis, yet left wondering if Pryor may have truly been impervious during that event, regardless of his opponent. (Sure, Duran could have decisioned Pryor, but could Duran, Hearns, Cuevas, SRL, or anyone else near Aaron's weight have ever been able to stop The Hawk inside of 15 rounds on that night in Miami?)

Food for thought. (Or perhaps only BS.)

[booradley]

Marciano
Ali
Frazier
Foreman
Holmes
Haglar
Hearns
SRL
SRR
Chacon
Sanchez
Lopez
Arguello
Duran
Pryor

No matter what names you add, they all had one thing in common: They had huge hearts. It's heart that whispers in Foremans ear; "Is that all you got George," like Ali did. It's heart that keeps getting back up like Lopez did. It's heart that suffers a "no mass" type humilation, and then wins world titles in two more divisions. It's heart that comes from hopelessy behind on points to win by KO like virtually every ATG great has done. An ATG must have Skills AND heart that are both WAY above average.

Boo

[mcvey]

Not good, not a champ, an ATG? Can a fighter become and ATG without great heart?
Cant think of what I classify as an all time great who didnt have it ,so Ill say no he cant.

[Mendoza]

Some old time trainers aid the first thing they looked at was heart. Heart is not just effort; it’s the will to walk though the fire to win when the body wants to give in. Most, but not all great champions have heart.

[ironchamp]

Well, the heart of a champion has always been a factor with the all time greats and a lot of fighter who could have been ATgreat suffered because of there lack of it. An ATG gets off the floor to win and overcomes adversity with heart,Louis, Marciano,Ali,Dempsey,Foreman,Frazier,Tunney have all done this

I disagree because your logic almost embraces imperfection in a fighter and basically implies that a great fighter has to get off the floor to win. Personally I put more stock in fighters who don't have to hit the canvas at all in order to win a fight.

Case in Point:

Which is the greater win?
Foreman TKO2 Frazier
or
Foreman KO10 Moorer

I obviously pick his win over Frazier but YOUR LOGIC suggests that because he was able to overcome odds or adversity in a fight where things were not going his way that the Moorer win should be ranked higher.

You see heart is a great attribute and it is certainly an important building block and component of an ATG fighter but IMO achievement and talent should be placed before heart simply because they are more capable of being quantified than heart. You cannot fully be objective about heart in the same manner as talent and achievement. For instance to measure heart one has to take everything into account not just conditions in the ring but conditions that venture into the innermost thoughts of a fighter, what they are going through personally, emotionally. Someone can get up from a KD or on a Verge of a KO and reverse a fight but someone who has gone through a traumatic experience or hardship in thier personal life yet still show up and give it thier all has just as much heart.


To be cont.

[Chaney]

Firstly, you want the talent, or at least some good building blocks, or you aint going nowhere.

Then as a good fighter, you can do very well, defeating average competition. But to get beyond good to great you have to also have heart.

Lets face it, any ATG has talent and heart. Both are needed to gain this exceptional status. Different ATGs had slightly different balances of both.

A couple of quotes on the subject:

"A champion is someone who gets up when he can't." - Jack Dempsey

"To be a legendary fighter, you have to beat the opponent it is impossible for you to beat." - Chris Eubank (referring to Benn vs McClellan)

[ironchamp]

I disagree because with you BummyDavis because your logic almost embraces imperfection in a fighter and basically implies that a great fighter has to get off the floor to win. Personally I put more stock in fighters who don't have to hit the canvas at all in order to win a fight.

Case in Point:

Which is the greater win?
Foreman TKO2 Frazier
or
Foreman KO10 Moorer

I obviously pick his win over Frazier but YOUR LOGIC suggests that because he was able to overcome odds or adversity in a fight where things were not going his way that the Moorer win should be ranked higher.

You see heart is a great attribute and it is certainly an important building block and component of an ATG fighter but IMO achievement and talent should be placed before heart simply because they are more capable of being quantified than heart. You cannot fully be objective about heart in the same manner as talent and achievement. For instance to measure heart one has to take everything into account not just conditions in the ring but conditions that venture into the innermost thoughts of a fighter, what they are going through personally, emotionally. Someone can get up from a KD in a fight they are losing or on a Verge of a KO and reverse a fight but someone who has gone through a traumatic experience or emotional or physical hardship in thier personal life yet still show up and give it thier all has just as much heart.

People with demons, emotionally unstable people, People with physical defects or problems that force them not to give it thier all...

Look at Gerald McClellan. He fought his heart out vs. Nigel Benn. But at the end of the fight they called him a quitter. The commentators, Fans, Don fucking King...But look what happened afterwards. If Gerald McClellan had left the arena and died in a car crash instantly before his condition was discovered people would have called him a quitter. They would have said he lacked heart and he'd probably get slaughtered right here on ESB on H2H match ups because they'll say "if the going gets tough, etc..."

Heart isnt the ability to absorb punishment in war, thats durability.
Heart isnt the ability to get off the floor to win a fight, thats focus and determination and it also takes skill.

Heart is overcoming your shortcomings and putting forth the best possible effort that you can put forth regardless of the circumstance and regardless of the outcome. Thats heart.