James Toney vs. Ken Norton

[Russell]

Eh?

[Sardu]

Toney is tricky and durable but does not have anything in his arsenal that will unduly dissuade Norton from executing his fight plan.

Norton UD

[Senya13]

Shoutout decision for Toney.

[cuchulain]

Shoutout decision for Toney.

Your admiration for the great Kenny is showing again, Senya !

[Senya13]

Norton wasn't mobile enough to stay away from Toney, didn't have enough offense to keep him away, and wasn't clever or tricky enough to cause an excellent counter-puncher like Toney much problems. Norton will be nailed time after time with clean flush punches, and won't be able to land much on his own, even with a jab (which was very predictable, and not fast or hard enough).

[Sardu]

Norton wasn't mobile enough to stay away from Toney, didn't have enough offense to keep him away, and wasn't clever or tricky enough to cause an excellent counter-puncher like Toney much problems. Norton will be nailed time after time with clean flush punches, and won't be able to land much on his own, even with a jab (which was very predictable, and not fast or hard enough).


Norton arguably won all three Ali fights and gave a young, hungry Larry Holmes all he could handle. But he would have been shut out by a blown-up middleweight? Am I missing something here? Senya's typical convoluted 'logic' at work here I presume. Toney did not have the kind of power that would give Norton reason for pause either. If Ali couldn't convincingly outbox Norton then Mr. RolyPoly sure as heck won't either.

[cuchulain]

Norton arguably won all three Ali fights and gave a young, hungry Larry Holmes all he could handle. But he would have been shut out by a blown-up middleweight? Am I missing something here? Senya's typical convoluted 'logic' at work here I presume. Toney did not have the kind of power that would give Norton reason for pause either. If Ali couldn't convincingly outbox Norton then Mr. RolyPoly sure as heck won't either.


You saved me some typing.

[Senya13]

Ali and Holmes have a completely different style from Toney. This is styles matchup, not comparison of who beat whom or gave whom troubles. Toney will outbox one-dimensional and predictable Norton silly.

[Sardu]

Ali and Holmes have a completely different style from Toney. This is styles matchup, not comparison of who beat whom or gave whom troubles. Toney will outbox one-dimensional and predictable Norton silly.

Norton might even give Toney a run for his money today. He owns a few Gold's Gyms in southern california and looks to be in great shape.

[cuchulain]

Ali and Holmes have a completely different style from Toney. This is styles matchup, not comparison of who beat whom or gave whom troubles. Toney will outbox one-dimensional and predictable Norton silly.


If you say so.

[Russell]

Anyone think Toney could knock Norton out, considering he did so to Holyfield?

[fists of fury]

Not me.

Toney doesn't hit anywhere near hard enough to trouble Kenny, despite him stopping (a very old) Holyfield.

Kenny outworks him for the decision, but Toney will have his moments.

[JohnThomas1]

Anyone think Toney could knock Norton out, considering he did so to Holyfield?
Actually there's much more chance of Norton knocking Toney out IMO. Norton is only worried by the biggest of punchers, something Toney isn't.

[JohnThomas1]

Ali and Holmes have a completely different style from Toney. This is styles matchup, not comparison of who beat whom or gave whom troubles. Toney will outbox one-dimensional and predictable Norton silly.

Remind me again of the fantastic performances Toney put forth at Heavyweight for one to consider him a shutout winner over Norton? :patsch

A shutout :lol:

I appreciate Toney's efforts at Heavyweight, especially considering where he came from, but to pick him via shutout over a fighter as good as Norton at this weight is ridiculous.

[Senya13]

A fighter as good as Norton? Norton is an overated jorneyman who got a title by joke, and is one of the biggest disgraces for IBHoF.

[JohnThomas1]

A fighter as good as Norton? Norton is an overated jorneyman who got a title by joke, and is one of the biggest disgraces for IBHoF.

Yet Montell Griffin was a super fantastic fighter yada, yada. Give us a break mate. A past prime Norton gave pretty much a peak Larry Holmes all he could handle for 15 fantastic rounds, among other things. Or let me guess, heavyweight Jones and Toney beay Holmes too, right? Have a bit of damn respect :lol:

[ChrisPontius]

Toney is not going to beat anyone by shutout decision when he throws 30 punches a round. Dinner had it right when he called him James "SD" Toney: he's always had a lot of close fights or losses to not-so-great fighters. Sam Peter didn't have half the boxing ability Toney has, yet he still beat him twice (once by shutout), pure on workrate. Norton is likely to do the same.

[Senya13]

Several other fighters gave a more experienced and better version of Holmes all he could handle too. Should we include every one of the into IBHoF and claim them to be all time great? Why is Jimmy Young not in IBHoF (a much better and much more deserving fighter than Norton despite that ridiculous decision in Norton's favour), why no Doug Jones?
Norton is overrated like hell post-facto, whereas he was considered to be rather poor fighter and a disgrace because of the way he received the title, by contemporary experts. Only on the wave of Ali-praising, he got praised too and subsequently inducted into IBHoF, which is a f***ing joke.

[Mendoza]

Shoutout decision for Toney.

Wow. Please explain. Norton was a very good jabber, an active puncher, and has little to feat about Toney's Power.

Norton UD seems very liekly.

[Senya13]

I already explained.

[JohnThomas1]

Several other fighters gave a more experienced and better version of Holmes all he could handle too.

Was it a better version of Holmes? Larry got quite a reputation for taking foes a bit lightly and the guys you hint at, Snipes, Witherspoon and Weaver were all considered to be on a hiding to nothing going into the bouts and were on the surface were hardly the sort of challenge to get Larry's blood boiling. On the other hand you can bet blood Holmes was fired up 100% going into his first ever title bout against Norton.

Should we include every one of the into IBHoF and claim them to be all time great?

Well Norton has the Ali trilogy as well as a few other respectable wins, your statement is a knee jerk reaction that just isn't logical.

Why is Jimmy Young not in IBHoF (a much better and much more deserving fighter than Norton despite that ridiculous decision in Norton's favour), why no Doug Jones?

Young might not have missed by much, but the thing is he DIDN'T get the nod over Ali. Who knows, if he did he may well have been there.

What did Jones do to get in there Senya? Seems a pretty silly comment.

Norton is overrated like hell post-facto, whereas he was considered to be rather poor fighter and a disgrace because of the way he received the title, by contemporary experts.

It seems we have a hater in the house. He wasn't considered a poor fighter on the whole by contempory experts at all, but no doubt you know better than anyone else. Regardless i have plenty of readings on the man and he is quite well regarded.

Only on the wave of Ali-praising, he got praised too and subsequently inducted into IBHoF, which is a f***ing joke.

Did Norton steal your dummy as a baby or something? Seems you really have some pent up anger at the man.

Little doubt he gets some extra milage out of the Ali events, but the fact is he has the runs on the board there and is a fukk of a lot better than you want to admit.

[Mendoza]

I already explained.

I see you called Norton a one-dimensional fighter? I suggest you watch him more often. Norton had a great jab, a good right, excellent body punching ability, good hand speed, good stamina, and a cross-armed mongoose style defense. Toney isn’t an aggressive-back you up type of fighter, which is the best to beat Norton.

Toney is a somewhat lazy fighter who likes to hang on the ropes and counter with his hook. In boxing, the type of punches that are countered as mostly hooks, not jabs or right crosses. Norton range and skills with strait punches, plus his activity and power behind his blows translate into him winning most of the rounds.

I think this pick is as strange as your Kessler vs Calzaghe pick where you thought Kessler would out jab Clazaghe. I think you’re a good poster, but some of your picks to me are odd. I know your a huge Roy Jones fan. Jones with his even shakier chin, smaller size, and less power in comparison to Norton. Jones had his way with Toney using similar tactics that Norton would.

[achillesthegreat]

I'm positive Norton would win.

[Senya13]

Holmes got more experience at top level later in his career, he got better than he was by the point he met Norton.

Norton had lost 2 fights out of 3 with Ali. These are official results. He also lost the Holmes fight. Had the official decisions been different, he could be considered worthy indeed. Otherwise, like I said, Young is a more deserving fighter than Norton (wins over Ali, Foreman, 2x Lyle, Norton).

I posted before the results of the poll for the worst heavyweight titlists of all time by the Ring magazine writers about the time Norton finished his career.

I think IBHoF has discredited itself much enough, but inducting Norton was just too much. One SD win over injured past-prime Ali and one SD win over Jimmy Young being the main positive achievements of his career, is going too far overboard.

[Senya13]

I see you called Norton a one-dimensional fighter? I suggest you watch him more often. Norton had a great jab, a good right, excellent body punching ability, good hand speed, good stamina, and a cross-armed mongoose style defense.
No variety whatsoever, no adaptability to styles that are problematic to him. He does the same several moves over and over in each round, not changing anything. When Ali started to move on his toes, Norton looked totally puzzled at what to do. Motivated Toney eats such primitive fighters alive.

Toney isn’t an aggressive-back you up type of fighter, which is the best to beat Norton.
Jimmy Young outpointed Norton, but was robbed of victory. Toney is much better fighter than Young.

I know your a huge Roy Jones fan.
Why does everyone start talking about Jones whenever they are debating anything with me, even though the subject being discussed has nothing to do with Jones whatsoever?

Jones with his even shakier chin, smaller size, and less power in comparison to Norton. Jones had his way with Toney using similar tactics that Norton would.
Jones with even shakier chin than who? Than Norton? Good joke, but you forgot to put in a smiley. Norton is so much different and inferior to Jones in just about everything except size, it's not even funny to think he could ever repeat what Jones had done.

[Mendoza]

Senya13 No variety whatsoever, no adaptability to styles that are problematic to him. He does the same several moves over and over in each round, not changing anything. When Ali started to move on his toes, Norton looked totally puzzled at what to do. Motivated Toney eats such primitive fighters alive.

I disagree on the variety remark, but since Toney never danced on his toes as Ali did, it is a non-issue in this fight.


Jimmy Young outpointed Norton, but was robbed of victory. Toney is much better fighter than Young.

It depends on how you score fights. If you go for power punching and aggression, Norton wins. If you go for defense, less punches landed, and clean counters, then Young won. I think Norton edged out Jimmy Young, and make no mistake about it, Young at his best was much harder to hit than Toney was. Young had excellent head movement, and top reflexes.


Why does everyone start talking about Jones whenever they are debating anything with me, even though the subject being discussed has nothing to do with Jones whatsoever?

I was using the Jones fight as an example. A past his prime guys like Jirov won rounds vs Toney. Journeyman like Teiberi most certainly beat Toney. Tiberri was robbed much more than Jimmy Young was vs Norton. That much I am sure of. In addition, Toney's heavyweight accomplishment were tainted with steriods.


Jones with even shakier chin than who? Than Norton? Good joke, but you forgot to put in a smiley. Norton is so much different and inferior to Jones in just about everything except size, it's not even funny to think he could ever repeat what Jones had done.

Yes,Roy Jones easily has a shakier chin than Norton. Jones was Ko'd by one punch early in round two, by Tarver and badly KO'd and down for at least a minute vs Johnson. Norton got up when Foreman and Shavers hit him flush. He was TKO'd after, but compare and contrast the blows form Foreman and Shavers vs Tarver vs Johnson if you dare.

[Senya13]

Aggressiveness has to be effective to be scored. Young clearly won that fight.

Jones was never dropped by nobodies the way Norton was several times.
Jones got up before the count of 10 in Tarver, and took two flush punches he didn't see from Tarver (in the same round), and stayed on his feet and fought back. He took another flush punch to the jaw from Tarver at the bell in the 12th round of the first fight, and only staggered a little bit, whereas Norton I'm sure would be dropped for a knockdown from such punch. Jones took a couple of clean punches to the head from John Ruiz, and didn't look hurt even a little bit.
Norton has one of the worst jaws of all heavyweights who ever held a major title (only blown-up light-heavyweight Patterson "competes" with him).

Jirov won several rounds vs Toney by staying on top of him every round, and getting those based on workrate alone. Norton never came even close in any fight I've seen or read about, to the workrate Jirov showed in there. Tiberi was an exception, and did he land many clean punches on Toney?
Toney's win over Holyfield (even that old version) is more significant than any fight Norton has won in his career. Take that version of Toney and he whips Norton's ass easily with his sharp counter-punching.

[SteveO]

I'd pick Toney by decision.

7-5.

In a 15 round fight, Toney gasses out and Norton takes the win.

[cuchulain]

like I said, Young is a more deserving fighter than Norton (wins over Ali, Foreman, 2x Lyle, Norton).




Young did not have a win over Ali.

Not even over the near-shot and disabled version he faced.

And prime Norton would stop the 'heavywt' version of Toney early.

[mr. magoo]

Toney did not ascend to heavyweight until he was well past his prime, and even then, defeated or gave weak performances against declining fighers or ones that were never very good to begin with. I give him all the credit in the world for the things he acheived at middleweight, supermiddleweight, etc, but his heavyweight career does not exactly stand out to me as being particularly impressive. In fact, his rise to the division always appeared to be a result of weight managment problems rather than an intentional climb.

Ken Norton was a true natural heavyweight and one of the division's historically best conditioned ones at that. There was no excess bagage or evidence of steroid use. Norton was a natural stud in the 210-218 lb range. In 1973, he defeated and busted up a very competitive Muhammad Ali who was coming off a great win streak and who's biggest win was yet to come. Toney beating a shot Holyfield and scoring a draw with Hasim Rahman does not convince me that he'd beat Norton. While Toney was certainly durable, as he was never stopped in 80 fights, Ken showed that he could go 15 rounds on a number of occasions, and was only stopped mainly by concensus all time great punchers. I do not see either of these men winning by KO, but the likelyhood of Norton getting the decision is rather high in my opinion. We simply did not see a prime Toney fighting at heavyweight, and can't make assumptions about what he'd do if we did.

[mr. magoo]

A fighter as good as Norton? Norton is an overated jorneyman who got a title by joke, and is one of the biggest disgraces for IBHoF.

Where in the hell did you learn the definition of journeyman? I suppose you also refer to a Mercedez Benz as a taxi cab. I try my best to respect the opinions of other posters even when I strongly disagree, but seeing such a misuse of the term journeyman has absolutely no basis whatsoever and clearly reflects the ineptitude of this poster...

[abraq]

I agree that Norton is given too much credit for the Ali fights. In the first fight he got an ill-conditioned, overweight and overconfident Ali whose jaw he broke as early as the seond round. Yet, all he managed was a hard fought decision. He lost the second Ali fight clearly. It may have been close but Norton clearly lost. I believe that sometimes even Norton concedes that he lost that one. In the third fight Norton got an old and fading Ali. Yet, all he managed was a close fight whose result could be a good subject of debate as to who really won depending on how you looked at the fight. Anyway, as Senya said, the officials saw it as 2 for Ali and 1 for Norton.

Norton put in a tremendous effort against Holmes. But the fact is, he lost the decision.

Also, he might have been lucky against guys like Jimmy Young.

Having said that, I do believe that he would have beaten James Toney by decision.

[Senya13]

Definition?
Merriam-Webster ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
an experienced reliable worker, athlete, or performer especially as distinguished from one who is brilliant or colorful

Free online dictionary ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
An experienced and competent but undistinguished worker


Norton was hurt and staggered several times by old voerweight wild-swinging Quarry, was staggered once by Stephens, was staggered once or twice by Young.
Dug up my scorecard.
Norton: 4,6,7,12
Young: 1,2,3,5,8,9,10,11,13,14!
draw: 15

[mr. magoo]

=Senya13]Definition?
Merriam-Webster ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
an experienced reliable worker, athlete, or performer especially as distinguished from one who is brilliant or colorful

Free online dictionary ([Only registered and activated users can see links])
An experienced and competent but undistinguished worker



These definitions do not entirely pertain to boxing in the typical fashion that the term is used to describe fighters. A journeyman boxer is usually a fighter who is better than a club fighter or tomato can, but does not quite fit the bill as a contender or world class entity. Men like Jesse Ferguson, Bert Cooper, and Chuck Wepner were all viewed as journeyman and at times even fringe contenders. Norton surpassed all of these men in his accomplishments. He was a top rate contender for the better part of 5 years between 1974-1979. He has a victory over a man who is commonly regarded as the greatest fighter of all time, as well as a number of wins over other rated contenders. He held a title at one point, and is viewed by some as an all time great heavyweight competitor. Now you may not agree with his ratings in the 70's, or may call his acquistion of a world title tainted, but the fact stands that he was all of these things. Norton was in no way shape or form a journeyman.

[Senya13]

Norton was experienced and competent, but was not distinguished, brilliant, colorful or anything of that kind. Just as the definition says. He is nowhere even close to being all-time great.

[mcvey]

Norton wasn't mobile enough to stay away from Toney, didn't have enough offense to keep him away, and wasn't clever or tricky enough to cause an excellent counter-puncher like Toney much problems. Norton will be nailed time after time with clean flush punches, and won't be able to land much on his own, even with a jab (which was very predictable, and not fast or hard enough).
I dont think Norton would be trying to keep Toney away in this one ,I see him as the agressor here,as Toney lacked a big punch at heavy Norton would be forcing the fight,the harder hitter and stronger man,he would have some problems with Toney,s marvellous defensive moves and would eat a lot of counters ,but his overall agression and punch rate would see him take a decision I feel.

[Senya13]

Only if it's same kind of decision as in Young-Norton, where Young was catching him with crosses to the head time after time, and Norton had no clue how to protect himself against it.

[radianttwilight]

Serious mismatch. Burger King vs Hercules?

Norton UD 15-0 or 14-1, simply based on the fact that he knows how to move his feet.

[mr. magoo]

Norton was experienced and competent, but was not distinguished, brilliant, colorful or anything of that kind. Just as the definition says. He is nowhere even close to being all-time great.

Perhaps not, but he wasn't a journeyman either. His acheivements went way beyond anything that warrants receiving the label.

[gregor]

I think Toney (in HW) is overrated by some. What exactly did he do? Knocked old man Evander, won with overhyped Guinn and outboxed crude Sam Peter. On the other hand, he lost to Rahman, wasn't able to fight Ruiz without steroids and then was himself outboxed by Peter.

I think Norton gets clear UD most of the time.

[brooklyn1550]

Norton UD

[mcvey]

Only if it's same kind of decision as in Young-Norton, where Young was catching him with crosses to the head time after time, and Norton had no clue how to protect himself against it.
Toney had the tools but for me he was often a nearly man ,he lacked dedication,,never impressed me at heavyweight,or since his fight with Jirov ,in which he was masterful.Prime Norton,s problem was punchers ,since Toney isnt at Heavyweight,I think its reasonable to assume Kenny outworkes him.

[Senya13]

What achievements? He is officially 4-6-1 in fights against ranked opponents. 4 wins being over over-the-hill injured Ali, overweight over-the-hill Jerry Quarry, nobody with padded record Duane Bobick and a outrageous robbery of Jimmy Young. Achievements... Ha-ha-ha!

[Senya13]

Norton looked awful against Young, his problem wasn't just punchers. Skillful defensive counter-puncher Jimmy Young was landing a lot of clean punches to the head, only receiving punches to the body in return (Norton landed very few clean punches to the head, and his jab wasn't working most of the time). Although he's more of a mover than Toney, but the approach is the same, time Norton throwing something, and nail him with a right cross to the head. If he gets into a crouch, start throwing uppercuts. If he gets into crab defense, he is throwing few punches, try overhand hooks to the sides of the head. Toney is a master of right crosses and overhand punches in general.

[mcvey]

Norton looked awful against Young, his problem wasn't just punchers. Skillful defensive counter-puncher Jimmy Young was landing a lot of clean punches to the head, only receiving punches to the body in return (Norton landed very few clean punches to the head, and his jab wasn't working most of the time). Although he's more of a mover than Toney, but the approach is the same, time Norton throwing something, and nail him with a right cross to the head. If he gets into a crouch, start throwing uppercuts. If he gets into crab defense, he is throwing few punches, try overhand hooks to the sides of the head. Toney is a master of right crosses and overhand punches in general.
Im not actually a fan of Norton,s,I think his rep is a little inflated due to his trilogy with Ali,but I dont see Toney stopping him,and at heavy, Toney looked to rest quite a bit Norton ,in his prime could go a hard 15,thats why I see him taking a dec ,talent wise Toney is a class above him ,but weight wise Norton is at least a class ,maybe two above him prime for prime.Young made a lot of fighters look silly ,I saw him against John Gardner the British and European Champ,a flabby Young made Gardner look foolish,he might have done the same to Toney.

[JohnThomas1]

I dont think Norton would be trying to keep Toney away in this one ,I see him as the agressor here,as Toney lacked a big punch at heavy Norton would be forcing the fight,the harder hitter and stronger man,he would have some problems with Toney,s marvellous defensive moves and would eat a lot of counters ,but his overall agression and punch rate would see him take a decision I feel.

That's exactly it, Norton doesn't have anything to fear here, but IMO again if anyone is in danger it's Toney. Norton's no inept, lazy tub of lard in there, Toney would face much more pressure than he ever has at heavyweight.

[Mendoza]

Im not actually a fan of Norton,s,I think his rep is a little inflated due to his trilogy with Ali,but I dont see Toney stopping him,and at heavy, Toney looked to rest quite a bit Norton ,in his prime could go a hard 15,thats why I see him taking a dec ,talent wise Toney is a class above him ,but weight wise Norton is at least a class ,maybe two above him prime for prime.Young made a lot of fighters look silly ,I saw him against John Gardner the British and European Champ,a flabby Young made Gardner look foolish,he might have done the same to Toney.

This is a silly thread. Toney was a never a big puncher at any weight. Small and in-active fighters at heavyweight are not good. Toney was a fleshy in-active ( didn't throw many punches ) fighter who hand picked easy opponents. Besides Toney was on RIODS as a heavy, so anything he did there is suspect at best.

Norton lost to elite level heavyweights. People like Ail, Holmes and Foreman. And to guy who can really hit like Shavers.

Toney? Ha, he got a lucky draw vs a Rhaman, a big gift decision vs Teiberi, lost to Thazdai, lost to Griffin twice.

Anyone want to mix and match the opponents here? Ali, and Holmes would make Toney's fleshy body at heavyweight bob and weave as they hit him. Foreman would crush Toney, and Shavers activity and power would be too much for Toney as well. Shavers was and Foreman are not fools like Peter. They hit hard to the body, and since James was about as mobile as a gas station attended as a heavyweight, he's meat vs big punchers who know what they are doing. And No, Toney could not do a rope-a dope vs Foreman.

I do not think Norton would lose to anyone Toney beat, with the possible exception of Roy Jones, and even then my money would be on Norton.

[mcvey]

This is a silly thread. Toney was a never a big puncher at any weight. Small and in-active fighters at heavyweight are not good. Toney was a fleshy in-active ( didn't throw many punches ) fighter who hand picked easy opponents. Besides Toney was on RIODS as a heavy, so anything he did there is suspect at best.

Norton lost to elite level heavyweights. People like Ail, Holmes and Foreman. And to guy who can really hit like Shavers.

Toney? Ha, he got a lucky draw vs a Rhaman, a big gift decision vs Teiberi, lost to Thazdai, lost to Griffin twice.

Anyone want to mix and match the opponents here? Ali, and Holmes would make Toney's fleshy body at heavyweight bob and weave as they hit him. Foreman would crush Toney, and Shavers activity and power would be too much for Toney as well. Shavers was and Foreman are not fools like Peter. They hit hard to the body, and since James was about as mobile as a gas station attended as a heavyweight, he's meat vs big punchers who know what they are doing. And No, Toney could not do a rope-a dope vs Foreman.

I do not think Norton would lose to anyone Toney beat, with the possible exception of Roy Jones, and even then my money would be on Norton.
I don,t quite see the connection between your post and my last one ,I agree with yours but can,t see why you quoted mine Mendoza.What am I missing?

[Mendoza]

I don,t quite see the connection between your post and my last one ,I agree with yours but can,t see why you quoted mine Mendoza.What am I missing?

You're not missing anything. I simply felt that non-Norton fans can be objective too, which is decided to quote you. Seyna thinks Norton is a journeyman.

[mr. magoo]

What achievements? He is officially 4-6-1 in fights against ranked opponents. 4 wins being over over-the-hill injured Ali, overweight over-the-hill Jerry Quarry, nobody with padded record Duane Bobick and a outrageous robbery of Jimmy Young. Achievements... Ha-ha-ha!

How was Ali over the hill? He would go on to getting his biggest win over George Foreman, and hold the title for four years with a number of title defenses. As for him being injured, it was Norton's doing that caused that. He broke Ali's jaw-something that no other fighter ever did, and certainly could not be done by James Toney. Bobick was a chinny fighter, but he was 38-0 and Norton dusted him on 1 round- the earliest he would ever be beaten in over 50 fights. The Young fight was close but probably not a robbery and Young was one of the best contenders out there. Quarry was past it but still competitve, of course you fail to acknowledge that Toney's best win at heavyweight was over a totally shot Holyfield. As for Norton's losses to ranked fighters, they were mainly against top rated contenders, all time great punchers, and the best boxers ever.

[Senya13]

If you can't see it from the film that 31-years old Ali was already over-the-hill, where he is taking a rest in half the rounds, only being able to dance on his toes in several rounds per fight (and when he does, he totally outboxes primitive Norton), take a look at several fights prior to this. Close fight with Joe Bugner, several tough rounds with Bob Foster (who was blasted out of there by almost every heavyweight he fought), several close rounds with far-over-the-hill Floyd Patterson. 5-to-1 underdog Norton, picked up for tune-up fight for Ali, got a smile of fortune, when Ali was injured like that, one chance out of a million or so they were saying, that that injury could happen like that.
Bobick was a nobody, he was matched up carefully (his meeting with Norton was a surprise for many, nobody expected him to be taking on such "serious" opponent any time soon) and so got a padded record and a win over him means as much as, say, Tyson's win over Peter McNeeley.
Quarry wasn't just past it, it was his last fight before retirement, he was about 10 pounds over his best weight and slower than he usually is (which means very slow), but, of course, still managed to stagger weak-chinned Norton several times during the first three rounds.
What's your own scorecard for Norton-Young?