Holmes says he would have beaten Ali in his prime

[barneyrub]

At 08.44 of this video Larry Holmes says he would have beat Ali in his prime, Ali disagrees.

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Holmes goes on to say he was best of all time, the only guy he says would give him trouble is Jack Johnson.

[MagnificentMatt]

At 08.44 of this video Larry Holmes says he would have beat Ali in his prime, Ali disagrees.

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Holmes goes on to say he was best of all time, the only guy he says would give him trouble is Jack Johnson.

Id favor him over Ali and Jackson...but wouldnt say hes higher on the HW list than Ali heh...

[Curtis Lowe]

Poor Larry, still an asshole after all these years. The guy never could understand why the public didn't take to him......it's because you were and still are a dickhead.

[McGrain]

Shite.

[Sweet Pea]

Shite.Sort your avatar out. I can understand a picture of a nice beach view, but not when there's a whale stranded on it.

:bbb

[McGrain]

Sort your avatar out. I can understand a picture of a nice beach view, but not when there's a whale stranded on it.

:bbb

:lol:

"Fuck" and "you".

[Mendoza]

At 08.44 of this video Larry Holmes says he would have beat Ali in his prime, Ali disagrees.

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Holmes goes on to say he was best of all time, the only guy he says would give him trouble is Jack Johnson.

I think Holmes beats Ali as he was more active, hit harder, had better fundamentals on defense,and had better stamina. Ali kicked Holmes out of his camp because Ali said Holmes was too fast for me.

Holmes says in 1971, when he was a young fighter, he could block Ali's jab and land his right hand.

The dinner conversation between Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Holmes is very intersting. Can anyone understand what Ali is saying?

[Robbi]

Holmes would always have given Ali trouble. He would have beaten the early 70's Ali, that I'm confident about. Norton done well against Ali at long range, and backed him against the ropes when he throwing power punches behind the jab. Norton took away Ali's rhythm, even better than Frazier ever did IMO. Holmes does have a sufficient body attack to pose Ali problems.

Ali in his prime was a brilliant long range boxer. His reflexes were sharper, better stamina, and could move around the ring effortlessey. Holmes would have trouble pinning him down and landing on a regular basis. Timing would be the key.

Holmes beats the early 70's Ali, but probably loses narrowly to the mid 60's one.

[red cobra]

Larry Holmes would have had an excellent chance of beating Ali. In fact, he's one of the very few, just a few, who possibly could have.

[dpw417]

I think Ali...but close.

[Vanboxingfan]

It's certainly possible that he could be Ali, but having said that I also think a couple of fighters could have given Holmes a handful, including Lewis, Tyson and Foreman.

[BUDW]

Holmes beats Ali prime vs prime only if holmes has a .357 with him,other wise Ali wins easy.

[Robbi]

Holmes beats Ali prime vs prime only if holmes has a .357 with him,other wise Ali wins easy.

Otherwise Ali wins easy.

Laughable.

[Bummy Davis]

Holmes would have had more trouble with the pressure swarmers and good stamina right hands punchers...Dempsey,Louis, Marciano,Tyson,Frazier (Lewis, slower pace but right hand deadly for Larry) Ali would have been troubled by the same bunch(good left hookers also) and Holmes would have been trouble for Ali because of style but Ali would have figured he could hit Holmes with right hands over the jab and done so for a UD15

[Bill1234]

Poor Larry, still an asshole after all these years. The guy never could understand why the public didn't take to him......it's because you were and still are a dickhead.

:huh Larry's a great guy. One of the most down to Earth and likeable guys you could ever meet. Just because he has the same mentality that all ATG boxers have makes him a dickhead? All boxers need to have that mentality, they can't go into a fight thinking they're gonna get beat.

[spion]

Agreed, Larry is a great person to meet and talk to. He also does represent big problems for Ali as styles make fights. Holmes matches Ali for jab both speed and more power, same with the right hand and used his uppercut and hook to more advantage. Neither would knock the other out but this fight would have been one helluva fight to watch. Holmes was quietly cagey and Ali was very smart at adapting. I would love to have seen that one!

[Robbi]

Agreed, Larry is a great person to meet and talk to. He also does represent big problems for Ali as styles make fights. Holmes matches Ali for jab both speed and more power, same with the right hand and used his uppercut and hook to more advantage. Neither would knock the other out but this fight would have been one helluva fight to watch. Holmes was quietly cagey and Ali was very smart at adapting. I would love to have seen that one!

Not speed he doesn't. Maybe with single punches, but not with combinations. Ali is overall quicker with his hands, and his feet for that matter.

[Sister Sledge]

Holmes is one of the few fighters who would have beaten Ali in his prime. Holmes' jab was the best weapon the sport has ever seen. He had a high boxing IQ and would have given Ali a very tough fight.

[anut]

Poor Larry, still an asshole after all these years. The guy never could understand why the public didn't take to him......it's because you were and still are a dickhead.

agreeeed

[Sardu]

The 60's Ali was too fast, too athletic, and just overall too talented for Holmes to beat. Holmes was terrific but who were his big litmus tests besides a fading Norton and an aging Shavers. Sorry, but outpointing the likes of Roy 'Tiger' Williams in 1976 and beating Norton and Shavers does not equal beating the fastest HW ever. Remember, wemay have never seen Ali at his absolute peak. I like Holmes but he was more of a workmanlike figher. Determined nd tough as hell. But not a once in a lifetime talent like a prime Ali or Tyson.

Ali by decision or even late TKO if he really steps on the gas pedal.

[RoccoMarciano]

At 08.44 of this video Larry Holmes says he would have beat Ali in his prime, Ali disagrees.

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Holmes goes on to say he was best of all time, the only guy he says would give him trouble is Jack Johnson.

Yeah, and to get technical about it, Holmes couldn't carry Marciano's jock strap :lol:

Holmes is, no doubt, one of the all time great HW boxers. But true to form, regarding this as much as anything else, he suffers from foot-in-mouth disease.

Neither Holmes nor Ali would suffer from a KO. Ali's greater speed would win the best of three.

[JohnThomas1]

Holmes thinks he would beat anyone in history, not to mention that Norton, Shavers and Cooney would have ko'ed Tyson.

[punchy]

:huh Larry's a great guy. One of the most down to Earth and likeable guys you could ever meet. Just because he has the same mentality that all ATG boxers have makes him a dickhead? All boxers need to have that mentality, they can't go into a fight thinking they're gonna get beat.
It is a must with any boxer, look at Holyfield now he still believes he can win.

[RoccoMarciano]

Norton, Shavers and Cooney would have ko'ed Tyson.

Really? :lol:

I guess it's too bad Tyson completely obliterated an old Holmes... poor Larry :lol:

[janitor]

I do not think that Holmes is in any danger of being seen as the greatest heavyweight ever. He is a pygmie next to Ali or Louis.

Having said that I can well believe that he might have beaten a prime Ali by playing the stylistic foil. Holmes would give Ali a lot of technical puzzles to solve and would have presented him with a style that he was uncomfortable with.

Anyway this is speculation. Ali actualy achieved more in the ring and that is what counts at the end of the day. If Holmes wanted to be considered the equal of Ali he needed to make a clean sweep of the top contenders of his era and he didnt. If you fight in a weaker era you need to do a proper number on it.

[NickHudson]

It is interesting that in this match-up there is much talk of the stylistic problems Holmes poses for Ali.

I think they are valid, but the reverse is also true. I would argue the stylistic problems Ali poses for Holmes are just about insoluble.

'67 Ali wins 3 from 3 IMO, with his worst performance of the 3 being a narrow points decision (8-7, or 9-6) and the best a potential TKO...

Nonetheless, this would be up in my TOP10 HW head-to-headers...

[Holmes' Jab]

It's hard to state with absolute conviction that he'd definitely defeat Ali (same applies to anybody really) but he's certinaly one of the small clutch of fighters who'd stand the best chance of doing so. I reckon Larry would stand a fair chance against any post-exile version of Ali (you could say 50/50 fight). He'd definitely beat Ali at an point post '75.


I think Larry would drop a close and competitive decision against the '67 version, however at any point in Ali's career he'd pose him stylistic problems and give him one helluva fight.

[JohnThomas1]

It's hard to state with absolute conviction that he'd definitely defeat Ali (same applies to anybody really) but he's certinaly one of the small clutch of fighters who'd stand the best chance of doing so. I reckon Larry would stand a fair chance against any post-exile version of Ali (you could say 50/50 fight). He'd definitely beat Ali at an point post '75.


I think Larry would drop a close and competitive decision against the '67 version, however at any point in Ali's career he'd pose him stylistic problems and give him one helluva fight.

Yeah i am almost in entire agreeance. I can't see Holmes beating pre exile Aliand i think early post exile might be anyones.

[RoccoMarciano]

Yeah i am almost in entire agreeance. I can't see Holmes beating pre exile Aliand i think early post exile might be anyones.
I don't see Holmes doing anything with Ali prime vs prime. Maybe he could with a Leon version, but nothing more than that.

Holmes has the biggest fucking mouth in HW boxing history, bar none! Was he a great HW? Yep. Does he creep into a top 10? Yep. What he has is foot-in-mouth disease, to state the matter mildly. He would have gotten his black ass kicked in its prime by Marciano - yet he showed the guy zero respect.

The guy lost to a GREAT LHW, what more needs to be said? Except for a kind suggestion to shut up, sit down, and understand you are in the bottom half of real HW top 10.

[Holmes' Jab]

He would have gotten his black ass kicked in its prime by Marciano - yet he showed the guy zero respect.



Yeah right. :nut

That one has Holmes UD written all over it. How many other people had Marciano outboxed (before getting stopped). Old Charles, Walcott, La Starza etc. I honestl;y can't envisage the same happening to a prim Holmes. A knockdown, sure but Larry's superior skill, jab and durability make him the clear fave here. :yep

[JohnThomas1]

I don't see Holmes doing anything with Ali prime vs prime. Maybe he could with a Leon version, but nothing more than that.

Holmes has the biggest fucking mouth in HW boxing history, bar none! Was he a great HW? Yep. Does he creep into a top 10? Yep. What he has is foot-in-mouth disease, to state the matter mildly. He would have gotten his black ass kicked in its prime by Marciano - yet he showed the guy zero respect.

The guy lost to a GREAT LHW, what more needs to be said? Except for a kind suggestion to shut up, sit down, and understand you are in the bottom half of real HW top 10.

You're just so kind :lol:

[RoccoMarciano]

Yeah right. :nut

That one has Holmes UD written all over it. How many other people had Marciano outboxed (before getting stopped). Old Charles, Walcott, La Starza etc. I honestl;y can't envisage the same happening to a prim Holmes. A knockdown, sure but Larry's superior skill, jab and durability make him the clear fave here. :yep
When did Holmes ever face an onslaught like he'd get if Marciano decided to go after it? Answer, never! Marciano was cautious with Walcott, an error on his part (of course Walcott cheating through half of the fight or so might be considered). Walcott was every bit as good as Holmes, and might have hit harder.

About the only thing Holmes ever faced in his career that was like Rocky is Mike Tyson. While Tyson was no Marciano... to say the least:lol:, we all seen what an older Holmes got. Just picture a young Holmes against a Marciano that wanted to knock his head off..... any questions? :patsch

I think Holmes should have done a jock strap news conference before hand... just to get Rocky going for a 3rd round KO.

[RoccoMarciano]

You're just so kind :lol:

I am? New one to me :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

:partytime

[RoccoMarciano]

:partytime

:hat

[Holmes' Jab]

It's call being realistic. There are simply more ways for Holmes to win. Marciano won't be outboxing him and it's a long shot knocking him out. What else does Rocky do then?

[Holmes' Jab]

:partytime


I'm in 'work' :dead (not particularly busy either, which can be both a blessing and curse at times. The day does a bit slower generally but there's the consiatlion of spending more time on here). :happy


Boy would I love to be at home with a few beers, a chinese (though slightly early in the morning) and perhaps some scantily clad female company (whilst the missus is out of course ;)). Nice but wishful thinking.

[RoccoMarciano]

It's call being realistic. There are simply more ways for Holmes to win. Marciano won't be outboxing him and it's a long shot knocking him out. What else does Rocky do then?

Just noticed you have Holmes at 3, good for you. Do I smell a Holmes nut-hugging :lol:

When did Holmes ever get hit with multiple KO blows... except for the Tyson match? You're comparing Rocky with the likes of Holmes competition, that just doesn't cut it, and is quite frankly disrespecful to one on the greatest champions in HW boxing history.

I do see you have Marciano in your top 5... is it so hard for you to believe that Marciano would have knocked Holmes out? Holmes never faced a guy like him.

[RoccoMarciano]

I'm in 'work' :dead (not particularly busy either, which can be both a blessing and curse at times. The day does a bit slower generally but there's the consiatlion of spending more time on here). :happy

Find a better job :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

I'm in 'work' :dead (not particularly busy either, which can be both a blessing and curse at times. The day does a bit slower generally but there's the consiatlion of spending more time on here). :happy


Boy would I love to be at home with a few beers, a chinese (though slightly early in the morning) and perhaps some scantily clad female company (whilst the missus is out of course ;)). Nice but wishful thinking.

:lol: wot a post hahahaha. "whilst the missus is out" hahaha, loved it!

But really, where is your dedication! The scantily clad should be sitting back waiting for you to get your fix on ESB first!

Gawd, what i was about to post LOL

[Holmes' Jab]

Find a better job :lol:


I'm more than happy with my job overall and it's mostly fine. Just going through a period over this past few weeks where I'm up to date with near enough all my work and allot of people are on hols, some off sick etc so the tasks have dried up in comparison to what they usually are.

I'm rarely very snowed under in my place work wise, but much of the time you've more than enough to get on with throught the day, lately that hasn't quite been the case so it's easier to get a bit bored. Though logging on here dulls that somewhat.

[Holmes' Jab]

Just noticed you have Holmes at 3, good for you. Do I smell a Holmes nut-hugging :lol:

When did Holmes ever get hit with multiple KO blows... except for the Tyson match? You're comparing Rocky with the likes of Holmes competition, that just doesn't cut it, and is quite frankly disrespecful to one on the greatest champions in HW boxing history.

I do see you have Marciano in your top 5... is it so hard for you to believe that Marciano would have knocked Holmes out? Holmes never faced a guy like him.


Tyson's win against Holmes was very commendable, but since when was that version a prime one. Still he's the only one to do that to him so credit where it's due. Niave in the extreme to say that he'd repeat the trick on a very early 80's Holmes, though is it not? Nut-hugging? It's not as if I've placed him as the undisputed greatest ever is it? Oh and quite a lot of people have him in their Top 5 or 6. Are you going to accuse them of the same?

I've Marciano 5th cause of his overall record (some good wins), if he looked better on film (more polished perhaps) and I held him in higher regard than I do in matchups, I'd rank him higher than I do. As it is his relative defficiencies in these others areas evens it out. My placing is reasonably fair I think. I just happen to favour a fair few against him.


Of course it's not impossible that e knocks Larry, just not very likely. :good

[RoccoMarciano]

Of course it's not impossible that e knocks Larry, just not very likely. :good

What is Holmes going to do? Jab him away?:lol:

Marciano would get Holmes to fight a Marciano fight... it's in the Holmes nature. Holmes would get pissed and try to slug it out - this spells curtains for Holmes. To state the matter simply, Holmes has a temper, and that would be his downfall against Marciano.

A KO is very likely when it comes to a Holmes/Marciano match.. Holmes would be the guy unable to move at the end.

[RoccoMarciano]

Oops, I just remembered this is an Ali kicking Holmes' ass thread. Sorry about that.

[Holmes' Jab]

The of the matter is that Marciano struggled against quite a number of 'decent' boxers. Note the key word 'decent', not 'very good' or 'great' (Charles, Moore and Walcott were the later of course, but they were old and all three could be inconsistent at HW).


Added to that the fact the Holmes has superior durability to all those guys and a slight edge in ability those are the factors which seal the deal in his favour IMO. It's clear as day that Marciano fared less impressively against good movers. Plus despite Marciano will find it difficult to get to the inside and will be eating heavy jabs and uppercut in his attempts to. Even if he does, Marciano (a 180-odd lb fighter) isn't simply going to overwhelm him nor have any real physical advantages in the clinches for example.

[Holmes' Jab]

Oops, I just remembered this is an Ali kicking Holmes' ass thread. Sorry about that.


I don't dispute that the best version of Ali (ie: pre exile) beats him in a competitive fight, but to say at any stage that it's going to be easy is silly. Post exile is a toss up IMO.

[fists of fury]

He would have gotten his black ass kicked

For some reason, I find this hilarious. :rofl

Nothing really to add - I too think Larry presents Muhammad with a lot of problems. I can see him winning at least one, but possibly two, out of three against Ali.

[ChrisPontius]

Boy would I love to be at home with a few beers, a chinese (though slightly early in the morning) and perhaps some scantily clad female company (whilst the missus is out of course ;)). Nice but wishful thinking.

The only thing i'm wondering here is if the "Chinese" was referring to food or to scantily clad female company.

[Holmes' Jab]

The only thing i'm wondering here is if the "Chinese" was referring to food or to scantily clad female company.

I meant food, though it's open to question (depending how nice looking the oriental laydee's happen to be). ;) :yep

[mcvey]

At 08.44 of this video Larry Holmes says he would have beat Ali in his prime, Ali disagrees.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Holmes goes on to say he was best of all time, the only guy he says would give him trouble is Jack Johnson.
I would go with Ali ,but not by much,Eddie Futch picked Holmes over Ali prime for prime ,sofor Larry to say he would win isn,t outrageous to me,I think it would allways be a very close thing.

[Smirf]

as if Ali would of pasted Holmes in his prime although Holmes is underated

[guncho]

It's hard to state with absolute conviction that he'd definitely defeat Ali (same applies to anybody really) but he's certinaly one of the small clutch of fighters who'd stand the best chance of doing so. I reckon Larry would stand a fair chance against any post-exile version of Ali (you could say 50/50 fight). He'd definitely beat Ali at an point post '75.


I think Larry would drop a close and competitive decision against the '67 version, however at any point in Ali's career he'd pose him stylistic problems and give him one helluva fight.

like in 1980?:yep

[mr. magoo]

Larry Holmes says he would have beat Ali in his prime
Holmes goes on to say he was best of all time.

Holmes is full of shit.

[Holmes' Jab]

like in 1980?:yep


That's very harsh as Ali was totally shot, ill and should have called it a day a few years prior (no reflection as to how a prime matchup would unfold between the two). I mean up until '77 or so.

[mr. magoo]

When did Holmes ever face an onslaught like he'd get if Marciano decided to go after it? .

When did Marciano ever face a true all time great boxer who was in his prime? You also mentioned Holmes loss to a lightheavyweight in an earlier post. Is this what you would call the best rendition of Holmes? By the way, that lightheavyweight was 6'3", 200 LBS, undefeated, and 28 years old. I'm not even so sure that Rocky ever beat a fighter who had so much going for him all at one time. With all due respect I make no convictions about Holmes beating Marciano or vice versa, but your assessment is based on observations that are somewhat one sided.

[sthomas]

A prime Ali would win a non-disputed UD, or late round TKO. Holmes is slightly overrated by most, greatly overrated by himself, IMO.

[prime]

I continue to see a quite beatable Holmes in his signature fights: a green (no pun intended) Cooney was in the fight deep into the 13th: Holmes had a good jab, but lacked killer power and on the other hand was always vulnerable to power shots to the body and head.

Holmes will go to heaven smarting from being underrated. He was a great champion and good man, but, compared to the '60s Ali, he was a couple of notches below.

[Addie]

I would go with Ali ,but not by much,Eddie Futch picked Holmes over Ali prime for prime ,sofor Larry to say he would win isn,t outrageous to me,I think it would allways be a very close thing.

Eddie Futch also suggests all of Ali's opponents were handpicked in the Ali biography.

Nobody is honest in boxing.

[mr. magoo]

I continue to see a quite beatable Holmes in his signature fights: a green (no pun intended) Cooney was in the fight deep into the 13th: Holmes had a good jab, but lacked killer power and on the other hand was always vulnerable to power shots to the body and head.

Holmes will go to heaven smarting from being underrated. He was a great champion and good man, but, compared to the '60s Ali, he was a couple of notches below.

I agree that Holmes is worthy of being a top 10 guy, but I can't see him being rated on par with Muhammad Ali or even beating him in his prime either. To tell you the truth, I'm not even 100% sold on the idea that he'd even beat Norton had Ken been about 4 years younger, or for that matter if he was even deserving of his decision win over a 15-0 Witherspoon. Sure, he showed that he could beat a guy like Mercer when he was 42 years old and on the comeback trail, but hindsite tells us that Mercer's career didn't exactly flourish as some predicted. At one point, I had Holmes as high as #4 on my all time list, but after carefully studying his career and listening to the opinions of other fans over the past year, I have strongly reconsidered. I personally think that Holmes belongs on the lower end of the top 10.

[prime]

I agree that Holmes is worthy of being a top 10 guy, but I can't see him being rated on par with Muhammad Ali or even beating him in his prime either. To tell you the truth, I'm not even 100% sold on the idea that he'd even beat Norton had Ken been about 4 years younger, or for that matter if he was even deserving of his decision win over a 15-0 Witherspoon. Sure, he showed that he could beat a guy like Mercer when he was 42 years old and on the comeback trail, but hindsite tells us that Mercer's career didn't exactly flourish as some predicted. At one point, I had Holmes as high as #4 on my all time list, but after carefully studying his career and listening to the opinions of other fans over the past year, I have strongly reconsidered. I personally think that Holmes belongs on the lower end of the top 10.

Great minds think alike, my fellow Chicagoan. :D

It is obvious a banged-up, slower, older Norton gave a prime, hungry Holmes everything he could handle; they were very close in overall ability.

And, yes, he is also in my lower top 10, as he is in many others' Top Ten lists. Not bad for a regular guy from Easton with the heart of a champ. Too bad he usually put his foot in his mouth.

[mr. magoo]

Not only is holmes massively overrated, so is ali.

Every great fighter is overrated to some degree. With each champion comes a different generation of people who witnessed both his rise and fall, and feel that he was the best. There really are no exceptions. Muhammad Ali, Larry Holmes, Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano, Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson have all been accused of being overrated at some time or another. The same thing will happen in 20 or 30 years when people look back on the careers of fighters like Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson and Evander Holyfield.

It tends to come with the territory of historical hindsite.

[sthomas]

Ali & Marciano are not overrated, especially Marciano.

[Bill1234]

Ali is overrated. I even saw someone say that Ali was a huge hitter, though I saw the same thing on Larry's website.

I think 1980-1982 Holmes vs 1966-1967 Ali, I think Ali wins 2/3. It's not like Ali would be able to dance circles around Larry, Larry could dance when he wanted/needed to in his prime, he just chose not to. Larry would win the battle of jabs and on the inside, but Ali was good at stealing rounds and good at making people looking like fools. One thing that I think should be mentioned is that the best of Larry was usually brought out in the important fights, the first Shavers fight, the Norton fight (even though he had a torn tricep), the Cooney fight, and the Mercer fight. He looked great in all of these. I doubt anyone would get knocked down or out. They both lacked the power to majorly damage eachothers chins. I think Larry hit a tad harder, but I think Ali's chin was a tad better.

It would be a great fight, and I would have loved to watch it.

[Russell]

What was up with Holmes going into fights injured?

He had a scrwed up hand against Tiger Williams?

[Russell]

Ali is hugely overrated. The 70's cycle of heavyweight overratedness and the Ali Legend have become neigh unstoppable.

You there!

Respect Jurgle Blin!

[Sister Sledge]

What is Holmes going to do? Jab him away?:lol:

Marciano would get Holmes to fight a Marciano fight... it's in the Holmes nature. Holmes would get pissed and try to slug it out - this spells curtains for Holmes. To state the matter simply, Holmes has a temper, and that would be his downfall against Marciano.

A KO is very likely when it comes to a Holmes/Marciano match.. Holmes would be the guy unable to move at the end.

I really don't think Holmes would have problems at all against Rocky. The only little guy he every had problems with was Tyson, and that is because he was old and coming out of retirement.

I think a prime Holmes would have destroyed Marciano and stopped him. Holmes would have busted him up and hurt him. Rocky may have landed some punches, but he was no one punch kayo artist. He would have paid a terrible price trying to get inside Larry's jab and defense. I see the fight getting stopped by the 8th round.

[Russell]

"Jurgen blin would have been a champion in any other era. He just happened to be in the same era as ali."

:bart

:rofl

[Dempsey1238]

I really don't think Holmes would have problems at all against Rocky. The only little guy he every had problems with was Tyson, and that is because he was old and coming out of retirement.

I think a prime Holmes would have destroyed Marciano and stopped him. Holmes would have busted him up and hurt him. Rocky may have landed some punches, but he was no one punch kayo artist. He would have paid a terrible price trying to get inside Larry's jab and defense. I see the fight getting stopped by the 8th round.

Some one had not seen the Marciano Walcott and Layne fights.

Marciano has the style to relly give Holmes trouble, If Cooney can do what he did vs Holmes pretty good, than a better version, Rocky Marciano would do better imo. I think its 50 50, and would not write either off like your doing. Holmes will NOT have a easy time with the Rock.

[Mega Lamps]

Marciano - Holmes, I would favor Marciano in this matchup. Marciano would be all over him from round 1 until the fight ended and Holmes had a tendency to get hit with the right hand at times. Add Holmes' willingness to brawl at times to all this and you would have a recipe for a Marciano win.

Ali - Holmes is very interesting and could possibly go either way but I'd favor Ali. Both present troubling styles for the other but in this case, I believe Ali's speed would be more of a factor than Holmes' power and would give the nod to Ali by decision most likely.

[Bill1234]

What was up with Holmes going into fights injured?

He had a scrwed up hand against Tiger Williams?

No, he busted his hand on his head in the 3rd, the same right hand he broke on Michael Spinks's head in their rematch in the 3rd. He went into the first Weaver fight with the flu.

[Robbi]

I'll confess, I'm a Holmes fan. But it really annoys me what he's said about Lewis in the past. He said "Lewis lacked heart, never had a jab, and who did he fight, Tyson and Holyfield were past their primes and washed up". Thats double standards from Holmes when he questions Lewis' quality of opposition when he himself hardly fought any great fighters. You can't hold it against Holmes too much because he more or less fought the best fighters his particular era had to offer, with the exception of Page and a couple of others. I don't mind Holmes knocking Lewis, but he just knocks him down far too much IMO.

[Bill1234]

I'll confess, I'm a Holmes fan. But it really annoys me what he's said about Lewis in the past. He said "Lewis lacked heart, never had a jab, and who did he fight, Tyson and Holyfield were past their primes and washed up". Thats double standards from Holmes when he questions Lewis' quality of opposition when he himself hardly fought any great fighters. You can't hold it against Holmes too much because he more or less fought the best fighters his particular era had to offer, with the exception of Page and a couple of others. I don't mind Holmes knocking Lewis, but he just knocks him down far too much IMO.

I agree, but I sort of think that he's just used to going about things that way because that's what happend to him with Ali. People don't bash Ali for fighting Evangelista or Spinks, but they rip Larry apart for it. So I think that's what he's doing now.

[Icemmann]

Poor Larry, still an asshole after all these years. The guy never could understand why the public didn't take to him......it's because you were and still are a dickhead.:lol: :lol: :lol:

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[Danny]

i believe it. Holmes was overrated, but still likely to beat ali.

Holmes overrated? I disagree. Larry was never given the credit he rightly deserved by the fans or the experts when he was champion. It was only when Holmes retired the first time that people really started given him his due!

Holmes is one of the most underrated fighters of all time & in my opinion, the most underrated HW of all time. Larry was a special fighter. Unlike other champions, Holmes's road to the title was a lot tougher than because people didn't want him as a champ. He worked his ass off & got to the top.

[mcvey]

Holmes overrated? I disagree. Larry was never given the credit he rightly deserved by the fans or the experts when he was champion. It was only when Holmes retired the first time that people really started given him his due!

Holmes is one of the most underrated fighters of all time & in my opinion, the most underrated HW of all time. Larry was a special fighter. Unlike other champions, Holmes's road to the title was a lot tougher than because people didn't want him as a champ. He worked his ass off & got to the top.
Holmes ,likely could have beaten Ali a lot earlier given the chance,Prime for Prime,I think he loses ,but not by much say a split dec.

[AnthonyJ74]

Poor Larry, still an asshole after all these years. The guy never could understand why the public didn't take to him......it's because you were and still are a dickhead.

LOL.....I have to agree with you somewhat. For all of Larry's positive qualities, his bedside manner was always lacking. I could never understand Holmes. The guy came from a dirt poor family and rose to be one of history's greatest heavyweight fighters, making millions along the way, and still the guy had to complain and moan and carry on. He always seemed to have a huge chip on his shoulder. I mean, I don't know Larry personally, but from what I have seen of him, he seems to be a little lacking in the class department.

If you haven't seen it already, Eddie Murphy does a comical impersonation of Larry Holmes after he loses to Michael Spinks. It's pretty damn funny. Murphy pokes fun at Holmes' sour attitude and the fact that he was such a poor, poor loser...It's posted on Youtube somewhere.......

[AnthonyJ74]

Holmes ,likely could have beaten Ali a lot earlier given the chance,Prime for Prime,I think he loses ,but not by much say a split dec.

I agree Holmes was a great fighter. And I agree with you that Larry Holmes could have beaten Ali if they had fought earlier than they did. If Holmes had fought the Ali that fought Norton the third time or Jimmy Young, I think he wins hands down! However, a prime Ali - or Cassius Clay - I think would be a tough fight for Holmes to win based purely on Ali's physical gifts - his speed, timing, reflexes, e.t.c. A prime Holmes would be a tough fight for any version of Ali, but I'm not sure if Holmes could beat a prime Ali.

[AnthonyJ74]

I'll confess, I'm a Holmes fan. But it really annoys me what he's said about Lewis in the past. He said "Lewis lacked heart, never had a jab, and who did he fight, Tyson and Holyfield were past their primes and washed up". Thats double standards from Holmes when he questions Lewis' quality of opposition when he himself hardly fought any great fighters. You can't hold it against Holmes too much because he more or less fought the best fighters his particular era had to offer, with the exception of Page and a couple of others. I don't mind Holmes knocking Lewis, but he just knocks him down far too much IMO.

That's what annoys me about Holmes: he never has anything good to say about any fighter! It's almost as if Holmes feels it costs him something to compliment a fighter in any way, and we all know how much HOlmes likes being rich and being able to brag about how much property he owns in Easton, PA.

[mr. magoo]

That's what annoys me about Holmes: he never has anything good to say about any fighter! It's almost as if Holmes feels it costs him something to compliment a fighter in any way, and we all know how much HOlmes likes being rich and being able to brag about how much property he owns in Easton, PA.

Yeah Holmes was never much of a sport with respect to other great fighers. Hell, even Mike Tyson has made an effort to give other champions their rightful dues. What's more, it also seems like as time passes, Holmes' view of other champions gets worse. At one point, he gave Ali full credit as being the greatest of all time, and now all of a sudden he can beat Ali at his best. Holmes was a great fighter, but for a guy who never met all his mandatories, was stripped of a title, never unified, and had some very indecisive wins, he's sure full of wind.

[AnthonyJ74]

Yeah Holmes was never much of a sport with respect to other great fighers. Hell, even Mike Tyson has made an effort to give other champions their rightful dues. What's more, it also seems like as time passes, Holmes' view of other champions gets worse. At one point, he gave Ali full credit as being the greatest of all time, and now all of a sudden he can beat Ali at his best. Holmes was a great fighter, but for a guy who never met all his mandatories, was stripped of a title, never unified, and had some very indecisive wins, he's sure full of wind.

haha...Yep, you are exactly right! I used to be a member of Holmes' website and message board, and it never ceased to amaze me the level of a** kissing that went on there. I mean, I was always a fan of Holmes as a fighter, so I enjoyed discussing boxing with other Holmes fans and boxing fans. But some of those guys and gals on that website had their heads so far up Larry's anus that it was pathetic. And then Holmes would get on there periodically and tell everyone how he would beat this guy and that guy and how today's fighters all lacked heart and how today's fighters didn't want to fight anyone.....And a few people - myself included - would always remind the others how Holmes didn't always fight the toughest guys available during his reign and how Holmes avoided toughter matches with Page, Thomas, rematches with Witherspoon and Williams, e.t.c.....And then a big argument would ensue between other Holmes fans who insisted that Holmes would have beaten those guys easily if they had fought, e.t.c....I got tired of it all! And then Holmes started charging a fee to be a member and that was that!

[mr. magoo]

haha...Yep, you are exactly right! I used to be a member of Holmes' website and message board, and it never ceased to amaze me the level of a** kissing that went on there. I mean, I was always a fan of Holmes as a fighter, so I enjoyed discussing boxing with other Holmes fans and boxing fans. But some of those guys and gals on that website had their heads so far up Larry's anus that it was pathetic. And then Holmes would get on there periodically and tell everyone how he would beat this guy and that guy and how today's fighters all lacked heart and how today's fighters didn't want to fight anyone.....And a few people - myself included - would always remind the others how Holmes didn't always fight the toughest guys available during his reign and how Holmes avoided toughter matches with Page, Thomas, rematches with Witherspoon and Williams, e.t.c.....And then a big argument would ensue between other Holmes fans who insisted that Holmes would have beaten those guys easily if they had fought, e.t.c....I got tired of it all! And then Holmes started charging a fee to be a member and that was that!

I know. The same goes on here with certain members who are a bit touchy when it comes to the subject of Holmes, and who he either fought or didn't fight. Frankly, I think in all fairness, some of those matches with other alpha champions may not have occured because of politics, but still he certainly could have fought better men in the latter half of his reign then M. Frazier, Bey, Rodriguez and Frank. Some of those guys were pretty piss poor excuses for contenders.

[round15]

Truthfully, I think Ali vs Holmes would be a boring fight. If anything, it could be a tactical boxing match that would probably go the distance. Both fighters set up almost everything off the jab and counter with right hand leads. The real argument is who has the better jab. I think Holmes' jab is technically better than Ali's but not as quick as Ali's jab. Ali threw his jab from the hip and set up his right hand with a slightly downward motion to chop and cut his opponents. Holmes was a very good athelete but I can't see him catching the 1960's Ali and doing enough damage to win a fight against him during those years. 1960's Ali wouldn't knock Holmes out but he'd win a unanimous decision. The only Ali I could see Holmes beating is the Zaire/Manilla version that was slower on his feet. Other than that, Holmes was lucky to get the win against Norton in a very close fight.

[AnthonyJ74]

I know. The same goes on here with certain members who are a bit touchy when it comes to the subject of Holmes, and who he either fought or didn't fight. Frankly, I think in all fairness, some of those matches with other alpha champions may not have occured because of politics, but still he certainly could have fought better men in the latter half of his reign then M. Frazier, Bey, Rodriguez and Frank. Some of those guys were pretty piss poor excuses for contenders.

I'm sure politics played a role in the prevention of some of those fights being made. But I agree that many of those matches against some of the better opponents could have been made if Larry really wanted to fight them. I mean, sure, a champion is entitled to an occasional easy match, but come on! There were a lot of decent fighters at the time - Dokes, Page, Thomas, Witherspoon, e.t.c. and Holmes didn't fight any of them. I can see trying to make as much money as possible, but I think a champion owes it to the fans, to the sport, and to his legacy to fight the best. Holmes fought a whole string of patsies in the latter stages of his career. After the Cooney fight, Holmes seemed to want to take it easy.

[mr. magoo]

I'm sure politics played a role in the prevention of some of those fights being made. But I agree that many of those matches against some of the better opponents could have been made if Larry really wanted to fight them. I mean, sure, a champion is entitled to an occasional easy match, but come on! There were a lot of decent fighters at the time - Dokes, Page, Thomas, Witherspoon, e.t.c. and Holmes didn't fight any of them. I can see trying to make as much money as possible, but I think a champion owes it to the fans, to the sport, and to his legacy to fight the best. Holmes fought a whole string of patsies in the latter stages of his career. After the Cooney fight, Holmes seemed to want to take it easy.

Agreed,

I can't think of any fighter post 1982 who Holmes fought, who was truly the best man around at the time he fought him. I don't know how in the hell men like Scott Frank or Lucien Rodriguez weasled their way into the top 10.

[RoccoMarciano]

Nothing really to add - I too think Larry presents Muhammad with a lot of problems. I can see him winning at least one, but possibly two, out of three against Ali.

I can see that too, but Holmes really is an irritating SOB.

[RoccoMarciano]

Ali is hugely overrated. The 70's cycle of heavyweight overratedness and the Ali Legend have become neigh unstoppable.


Maybe the 70's as being a great HW period makes sense to some/most boxing fans?

[Robbi]

I know. The same goes on here with certain members who are a bit touchy when it comes to the subject of Holmes, and who he either fought or didn't fight. Frankly, I think in all fairness, some of those matches with other alpha champions may not have occured because of politics, but still he certainly could have fought better men in the latter half of his reign then M. Frazier, Bey, Rodriguez and Frank. Some of those guys were pretty piss poor excuses for contenders.

Holmes fought the best his era had to offer. Some might argue not fighting Page and a couple of others works against him. I do agree that Holmes never fought a truely great fighter with outstanding credentials throughout his reign. Witherspoon was a young hungry challenger, but lacked the experience as he was only 15-0 going into the fight. Cooney was termed a threat with his big left hook. But he turned out to be a failure as "the great white hope". Norton was a superb win, but again a fighter who was 3-4 years past his peak.

If you look at most fighters with long reigns, Louis and Hagler, their quality of oppostion can be questioned. It's scary to think that Hagler's biggest win during the first 5 years of his reign was against Duran, who embarrassingly took him the distance. Duran was marked down for the first knockout defeat of his career, nobody gave him a prayer. Antufermo was a couple of years past his peak, Hamsho a credible challenger, Sibson European class bordering on fringe world class, Caveman Lee a journeyman, Scypion again no more than an aveage challenger, Duran a natural lightweight. Only when Hagler beat Hearns did he get the acclaim he deserved.

Bernard Hopkins is another who's quality of oppostiton is questioned by many after a reign containing 20 titles defenses over a 10 span.

[JohnThomas1]

Holmes fought the best his era had to offer. Some might argue not fighting Page and a couple of others works against him.

For half or a little over he did, but not Page and Thomas in particular, Weaver, Witherspoon and maybe Williams rematches, with Dokes (managerial interests hurt this one) and Coetzee on a lesser level. He avoided the best of his second half era, and told us himself he was going to do so, even naming 2 or 3.

I still however rank him 4. Great fighter IMO.

[mr. magoo]

Homes certainly had a great career, and I rate him highly, but I just think he could have fought a few additional good men.

1983 is a year that stands out in my mind. Holmes fought 4 times in this year which was good, but his choices for opponents needed to be better. I don't have a problem with him fighting Witherspoon but Marvis Frazier, Lucien Rodriguez, and Scott Frank were simply not the right guys for him to be fighting at that time when we consider that Dokes, Thomas, Page, and Coetzee were hanging around.

Holmes would have been better off in 1983 fighting only 3 times instead of 4, and taking on a schedule that looked more like this: Witherspoon, Page and Coetzee. You can also substitute Dokes or Thomas for one of the previously mentioned 3.

This would have been a bit more reasonable in my opinion. In any case, he would have retained his WBC belt and perhaps even acquired an additional title. He also likely would have made as much or more money, and certainly gained substantially greater respect. On the otherhand, he might have lost while facing one of those guys, given that he was nearing the end of his prime, but at least he would have gone out like a true champion.

[brownpimp88]

Holmes fought the best his era had to offer. Some might argue not fighting Page and a couple of others works against him. I do agree that Holmes never fought a truely great fighter with outstanding credentials throughout his reign. Witherspoon was a young hungry challenger, but lacked the experience as he was only 15-0 going into the fight. Cooney was termed a threat with his big left hook. But he turned out to be a failure as "the great white hope". Norton was a superb win, but again a fighter who was 3-4 years past his peak.

If you look at most fighters with long reigns, Louis and Hagler, their quality of oppostion can be questioned. It's scary to think that Hagler's biggest win during the first 5 years of his reign was against Duran, who embarrassingly took him the distance. Duran was marked down for the first knockout defeat of his career, nobody gave him a prayer. Antufermo was a couple of years past his peak, Hamsho a credible challenger, Sibson European class bordering on fringe world class, Caveman Lee a journeyman, Scypion again no more than an aveage challenger, Duran a natural lightweight. Only when Hagler beat Hearns did he get the acclaim he deserved.

Bernard Hopkins is another who's quality of oppostiton is questioned by many after a reign containing 20 titles defenses over a 10 span.
how was ken norton 3-4 years past his peak when his main credentials were between 1975-1977, I mean who was ken norton when ali fought him, just a journeyman really. When larry Holmes beat him, he was the #1 heavyweight in the world.

[JohnThomas1]

how was ken norton 3-4 years past his peak when his main credentials were between 1975-1977, I mean who was ken norton when ali fought him, just a journeyman really. When larry Holmes beat him, he was the #1 heavyweight in the world.

Norton was undoubtably well into decline vs Holmes. He did however fight superbly vs Larry. Eddie Futch always said older fighters often had one great performance left in them when people thought they were past it, maybe this was Ken's.

[brownpimp88]

Norton was undoubtably well into decline vs Holmes. He did however fight superbly vs Larry. Eddie Futch always said older fighters often had one great performance left in them when people thought they were past it, maybe this was Ken's.
his wins over zanon, bobick and young were right before lary, am i not right?

[JohnThomas1]

his wins over zanon, bobick and young were right before lary, am i not right?

How did you score the Young fight? Well, have you even seen it? Sometimes we need to go deeper than mere stats and actually look at what we are debating. Young was an awkward bugger tho, admittedly.

[brownpimp88]

How did you score the Young fight? Well, have you even seen it? Sometimes we need to go deeper than mere stats and actually look at what we are debating. Young was an awkward bugger tho, admittedly.
i heard it was a close fight, if u want to say he lost so what, he beat ali the third time for sure.

[Robbi]

How did you score the Young fight? Well, have you even seen it? Sometimes we need to go deeper than mere stats and actually look at what we are debating. Young was an awkward bugger tho, admittedly.

Speaking of Young. How did you score his fight with Ali?

[JohnThomas1]

Speaking of Young. How did you score his fight with Ali?

I've never sat thru the whole thing to score it lol. Bit boring.

[JohnThomas1]

i heard it was a close fight, if u want to say he lost so what, he beat ali the third time for sure.

I mention it because it's relative to our topic - whether Norton was declined, peak or whatever you want to claim. I can't for the life of me follow your angle above. You used the Young fight/win as leverage that Norton was in great nick, i simplu questioned the scoring.

[Langford]

Ali beat Young. Norton beat Young. Larry beat Norton and I think its perhaps his best win. IMHO.

[RoccoMarciano]

This thread hasn't got swept away yet?

OK, to end this, if Holmes said it it must be gospel. Can this be buried now?????????

[Bill1234]

Homes certainly had a great career, and I rate him highly, but I just think he could have fought a few additional good men.

1983 is a year that stands out in my mind. Holmes fought 4 times in this year which was good, but his choices for opponents needed to be better. I don't have a problem with him fighting Witherspoon but Marvis Frazier, Lucien Rodriguez, and Scott Frank were simply not the right guys for him to be fighting at that time when we consider that Dokes, Thomas, Page, and Coetzee were hanging around.

Holmes would have been better off in 1983 fighting only 3 times instead of 4, and taking on a schedule that looked more like this: Witherspoon, Page and Coetzee. You can also substitute Dokes or Thomas for one of the previously mentioned 3.

This would have been a bit more reasonable in my opinion. In any case, he would have retained his WBC belt and perhaps even acquired an additional title. He also likely would have made as much or more money, and certainly gained substantially greater respect. On the otherhand, he might have lost while facing one of those guys, given that he was nearing the end of his prime, but at least he would have gone out like a true champion.

Larry was going to fight Coetzee though, it was signed and all and was gonna be a huge pay day, but the fight got canned about a month before fightnight. It was gonna take place on something like June 6, 1984. That's the reason why Larry only made 1 defence in 1984, not because he got lazy. The reason he didn't fight Young, was because Ocasio beat Young, so Larry fought Ocasio. He fought Snipes in 81 and not Coetzee is because Renaldo beat Coetzee.

I really don't feel like getting into this again.

Here is the Holmes-Coetzee poster:[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[mr. magoo]

Larry was going to fight Coetzee though, it was signed and all and was gonna be a huge pay day, but the fight got canned about a month before fightnight. It was gonna take place on something like June 6, 1984. That's the reason why Larry only made 1 defence in 1984, not because he got lazy. The reason he didn't fight Young, was because Ocasio beat Young, so Larry fought Ocasio. He fought Snipes in 81 and not Coetzee is because Renaldo beat Coetzee.

I really don't feel like getting into this again.

Here is the Holmes-Coetzee poster:[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Yeah I remember you mentioning the Coetzee fight being signed when Coetzee backed out. My only point was that weather it be Coetzee, Page, Dokes, or Thomas, Holmes could have fought some additional good fighters later in his career.

.......That's all.........

[AnthonyJ74]

Holmes should have retired after the Cooney fight. His last three years as heavyweight champion didn't do much for his legacy. It made him richer and inflated his pro record, but that's about it!

[RoccoMarciano]

This thread hasn't got swept away yet?

OK, to end this, if Holmes said it it must be gospel. Can this be buried now?????????

Guess not :lol:

JT's new avatar is wearing way too much :lol:

[JohnThomas1]

Guess not :lol:

JT's new avatar is wearing way too much :lol:

Hey - are those tits real, or not?

[jaywilton]

Best for best-I take Ali(let's say the Ali that stopped...Cleveland Williams...).Actually...I could understand Tyson biting off Holmes' ear...I also remember some of Holmes fairly unimpressive fights when he was allegedly in his prime(pretty inexperienced Tim Witherspoon and Mike Weaver,for example).Holmes-only-made it to where he was because Ali took him in as his sparring partner..in case,I missed any comments regarding Holmes's loss to Duane Bobick in the '72 Olympic trials-excuussse me.I thought that only I remembered it..but you can check it out on youtube.

[Bill1234]

Best for best-I take Ali(let's say the Ali that stopped...Cleveland Williams...).Actually...I could understand Tyson biting off Holmes' ear...I also remember some of Holmes fairly unimpressive fights when he was allegedly in his prime(pretty inexperienced Tim Witherspoon and Mike Weaver,for example).Holmes-only-made it to where he was because Ali took him in as his sparring partner..in case,I missed any comments regarding Holmes's loss to Duane Bobick in the '72 Olympic trials-excuussse me.I thought that only I remembered it..but you can check it out on youtube.

Larry was past it for the Witherspoon fight, and had the flu for the Weaver fight, so both times he wasn't 100%, but I do agree that he had a habit of bringing the best out of his opposition, but seemed to fight down to it too. As for him only making because he was Ali's sparring partner back in the early 70's, that's BS. That held him back more than anything. It kept him in Ali's shaddow and he was known as Ali's sparring partner instead of champion, even years after he beat Ali.

[AnthonyJ74]

Larry was past it for the Witherspoon fight, and had the flu for the Weaver fight, so both times he wasn't 100%, but I do agree that he had a habit of bringing the best out of his opposition, but seemed to fight down to it too. As for him only making because he was Ali's sparring partner back in the early 70's, that's BS. That held him back more than anything. It kept him in Ali's shaddow and he was known as Ali's sparring partner instead of champion, even years after he beat Ali.

I think it's debatable as to whether or not HOlmes was past it by the time he fought Witherspoon. I mean, many people feel that Larry was in his absolute prime against Cooney, and if he was, I don't see how he could be "past it" in such a short time frame for the Witherspoon fight. Holmes' troubles with Witherspoon could have had a lot to do with styles.

[prime]

I don't think Holmes was at his "absolute peak" for Cooney; it was just his biggest showcase, but he was probably beginning to slip slightly after four years at the top and a double-digit number of defenses. I personally believe he was at his peak for Ali. I remember Cosell asking him whether he thought he was beginning to decline when he failed to kayo Berbick.

Holmes' troubles with Witherspoon had a lot to do with Witherspoon.

[Mendoza]

I think it's debatable as to whether or not HOlmes was past it by the time he fought Witherspoon. I mean, many people feel that Larry was in his absolute prime against Cooney, and if he was, I don't see how he could be "past it" in such a short time frame for the Witherspoon fight. Holmes' troubles with Witherspoon could have had a lot to do with styles.


I do not think Holmes was past it when he meet Witherpsoon. I think Holmes underestimated Witherpsoon. It was a tale of three fights. Holmes won 5 of first 6 rounds, Wither soon did well in the mid rounds, including a wild 9th round where Holmes was rocked, but came back to rock Witherpsoon in the same round! Holmes won some of the final rounds, and did enough to win the fight.

[jaywilton]

Larry was past it for the Witherspoon fight, and had the flu for the Weaver fight, so both times he wasn't 100%, but I do agree that he had a habit of bringing the best out of his opposition, but seemed to fight down to it too. As for him only making because he was Ali's sparring partner back in the early 70's, that's BS. That held him back more than anything. It kept him in Ali's shaddow and he was known as Ali's sparring partner instead of champion, even years after he beat Ali.Obviously-I'm part of...I think a large crowd that thinks Holmes is an obnoxious jerk(I'm being nice)-his personality kept him "in Ali's shadow";obviously excuses aside-he should've blown out Michael Spinks instead of shooting off his big tuchis....Carl "the truth' Williams...Renaldo Snipes...rethinking his "prime",aside from a pretty one-dimensional Gerry Cooney..his biggest "prime" perforfance may have been against....Tex Cobb ..

[Sonny's jab]

I dont think any version of Holmes beats any decent version of Ali.
I'm not sure Holmes would beat an earlier, hungrier version of Norton either.

[Bokaj]

I dont think any version of Holmes beats any decent version of Ali.
I'm not sure Holmes would beat an earlier, hungrier version of Norton either.

Considering how close it was with a 34 year old Norton that was desillusioned after in his opinion being robbed of a victory against Ali, I think you right.

I haven't seen too much of Holmes but still feel that most versions of Ali from 64 to 75 probably would have beaten him in his prime. Only by decision, though.

[mr. magoo]

Larry was past it for the Witherspoon fight, and had the flu for the Weaver fight, so both times he wasn't 100%, but I do agree that he had a habit of bringing the best out of his opposition, but seemed to fight down to it too. As for him only making because he was Ali's sparring partner back in the early 70's, that's BS. That held him back more than anything. It kept him in Ali's shaddow and he was known as Ali's sparring partner instead of champion, even years after he beat Ali.

Good points, but I disagree that sparring with Ali held him back. Holmes was in no way shape or form ready to be a top contender before about 1977. Some of his amateur fights against men like Bobick and Wells, plus a few of his early pro fights against guys like Isaac showed us that he needed some time to develop. Having the advantage to spar with Ali gave him some valuable experience and truly made him blossom into the great fighter that he later became. Had he not had the privelage of working with Ali, I have my doubts about how far he might have gone. Still the potential was there regardless, and Holmes made good use of the opportunity. There have been numerous fighters who have worked as sparring partners for all time greats who went nowhere.

[guilalah]

Response to McGrain's Avatar

Sort your avatar out. I can understand a picture of a nice beach view, but not when there's a whale stranded on it.



I've been enjoying McGrain's avatar for quite some time. I can enjoy gals lean and mean, or soft and cushioned. Leaning a little towards cushioned. But I don't want the same idea every time. I think McGrain's avatar lends some needed variety. IMO. ('Cushioned', btw, means 'everywhere cushioned' -- not a skinny chick with big mams).

[mr. magoo]

I've been enjoying McGrain's avatar for quite some time. I can enjoy gals lean and mean, or soft and cushioned. Leaning a little towards cushioned. But I don't want the same idea every time. I think McGrain's avatar lends some needed variety. IMO. ('Cushioned', btw, means 'everywhere cushioned' -- not a skinny chick with big mams).

For all we know that may be his wife. Rest assured I'd still do her though.

[Sonny's jab]

It's Marilyn Monroe, America's all-time sex symbol, if I'm not mistaken.

[mr. magoo]

It's Marilyn Monroe, America's all-time sex symbol, if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, I should have recognized her. I thought for a moment she was a monroe look alike as there have been quite a few.

[McGrain]

:rofl

[Bill1234]

Obviously-I'm part of...I think a large crowd that thinks Holmes is an obnoxious jerk(I'm being nice)-his personality kept him "in Ali's shadow";obviously excuses aside-he should've blown out Michael Spinks instead of shooting off his big tuchis....Carl "the truth' Williams...Renaldo Snipes...rethinking his "prime",aside from a pretty one-dimensional Gerry Cooney..his biggest "prime" perforfance may have been against....Tex Cobb ..

Peak Larry was around 1980, not late 1982 or 1983. His legs and hand speed had left him by then. Cooney was his last true 100% Larry. Larry isn't obnoxious, or a jerk. He's just the opposite. In person you'll never meet a more down to Earth, nice guy. He's great with kids too. His personality kept him in Ali's shaddow? He was in Ali's shaddow all along. He was resented for beating Ali, which Larry cried about afterward. He took it easy on Ali for most of the fight, only hitting him hard at times.

[Jennifer Love Hewitt]

Holmes is right.

[jaywilton]

Peak Larry was around 1980, not late 1982 or 1983. His legs and hand speed had left him by then. Cooney was his last true 100% Larry. Larry isn't obnoxious, or a jerk. He's just the opposite. In person you'll never meet a more down to Earth, nice guy. He's great with kids too. His personality kept him in Ali's shaddow? He was in Ali's shaddow all along. He was resented for beating Ali, which Larry cried about afterward. He took it easy on Ali for most of the fight, only hitting him hard at times....you're right;he's not an obnoxious jerk-I said I was being nice.In 1980, he fought 3 guys(boxrec.com)-the world's slowest heavy's ever could've done ok with them(I'd probably take Scott Ledoux over Holmes in a street fight).Holmes is way beyond a prick..I don't doubt that he can be a "nice guy" for pr,but I happened to see him training for Leon Spinks(aside from his Rocky Marciano Michael Spinks comment) in Detroit in '81 at Joe Louis Arena.Holmes grabbed the mike,made a bunch of obnoxious Gay jokes about Spinks-half his size-and sent his goon(security) squad into the
crowd to eject anyone making too much noise.Holmes was a seriously asshole version of Rodney Dangerfield.

[Sonny's jab]

Yeah, if Holmes isn't an obnoxious jerk and an asshole he sure does a tremendous imitiation of one.

[jaywilton]

Yeah, if Holmes isn't an obnoxious jerk and an asshole he sure does a tremendous imitiation of one.Sonny;you duh man.

[mr. magoo]

Yeah, if Holmes isn't an obnoxious jerk and an asshole he sure does a tremendous imitiation of one.

I think he's gotten better over the years. Is it old age? Is it the realization that he needs to be nicer to save public face? Who knows. I agree that he was certainly obnoxious during his champioship years, but to be fair, the public and the press weren't exactly nice to him either.

[Sonny's jab]

I think he's gotten better over the years. Is it old age? Is it the realization that he needs to be nicer to save public face? Who knows. I agree that he was certainly obnoxious during his champioship years, but to be fair, the public and the press weren't exactly nice to him either.

He usually acted up against his opponents though. I seem to remember he used racist slurs against David Bey, he belittled a lot of guys. I remember after one of his comeback fights he was patronizing about one of his opponents and was rubbing it in how rich he was in comparison to this part-time journeyman. This was when Holmes was in his 40s. He didn't always come across as a great sportsman, in the ring or out of it. He tried to brawl with Cooney and Cosell after the Leon Spinks fight. I know it's all part of the game, it's about psyching guys out and hyping fights, but sometimes Holmes just didn't seem a "likeable" guy, and as a family man and a successful businessman he should have known better. To be fair, he's not the only modern champ guilty of such obnoxiousness. Many other post-Ali champs have been equally arrogant and obnoxious.

Still, he was a damned good fighter.

[mr. magoo]

He usually acted up against his opponents though. I seem to remember he used racist slurs against David Bey, he belittled a lot of guys. I remember after one of his comeback fights he was patronizing about one of his opponents and was rubbing it in how rich he was in comparison to this part-time journeyman. This was when Holmes was in his 40s. He didn't always come across as a great sportsman, in the ring or out of it. He tried to brawl with Cooney and Cosell after the Leon Spinks fight. I know it's all part of the game, it's about psyching guys out and hyping fights, but sometimes Holmes just didn't seem a "likeable" guy, and as a family man and a successful businessman he should have known better. To be fair, he's not the only modern champ guilty of such obnoxiousness. Many other post-Ali champs have been equally arrogant and obnoxious.

Still, he was a damned good fighter.

Yeah he was an asshole to some degree. I remember back in 1991 or 92, he had some street scuffle with Trevor Berbick ( an even bigger asshole ). Weather or not it was staged or serious I'll never know. He also definately had a problem with white people, and despite his efforts at holding back, it still showed through. Like you said, he was a great fighter, which is why we followed his career. We have to remind outselves that its not because of their wonderful nature that we admire these guys.

[AnthonyJ74]

...you're right;he's not an obnoxious jerk-I said I was being nice.In 1980, he fought 3 guys(boxrec.com)-the world's slowest heavy's ever could've done ok with them(I'd probably take Scott Ledoux over Holmes in a street fight).Holmes is way beyond a prick..I don't doubt that he can be a "nice guy" for pr,but I happened to see him training for Leon Spinks(aside from his Rocky Marciano Michael Spinks comment) in Detroit in '81 at Joe Louis Arena.Holmes grabbed the mike,made a bunch of obnoxious Gay jokes about Spinks-half his size-and sent his goon(security) squad into the
crowd to eject anyone making too much noise.Holmes was a seriously asshole version of Rodney Dangerfield.

hahaha.....I can actually picture Holmes doing that. Yeah, I've always felt that Holmes was a bit lacking in the class department. An example of this is how Holmes always tried to goad Foreman into a fight and into a war of words. Holmes never passed up an opportunity to bash Foreman in some way, and I always felt that the sole motivating factoring for Holmes dislike and disrespect of Foreman was Holmes' intense jealousy of Foreman's success. And Foreman, for all of his faults, never retaliated or said a word about Holmes. He just let the classless jerk ramble on and act like a moron; and George would go back to his Texas ranch and count his money and check his Grill sales! Holmes was JEALOUS of Foreman's success, and I feel that it pissed him off that Foreman was so much more popular and WAAAYYYYYY Richer! hahaha....And George nabbed a championship belt during his comeback, and Holmes didn't! hahahaha.....I can just envision Larry sitting at his house sticking pins into a voodoo doll of George Foreman!

[Sonny's jab]

If Holmes and Foreman had ever fought each other, Holmes MIGHT well have won.
But I think Foreman was the greater fighter. I'd rank him higher on the all-time list.

[AnthonyJ74]

If Holmes and Foreman had ever fought each other, Holmes MIGHT well have won.
But I think Foreman was the greater fighter. I'd rank him higher on the all-time list.

I always thought that if Foreman and Holmes had fought in the late 90's - about the time they were originally supposed to fight - that Foreman would have won. The way Foreman looked against Savarese and Briggs - he had good stamina and fought at a good pace in both fights - that he probably would have been able to outwork Holmes, who definitely was lacking in the stamina department at the time. It seemed to me that Foreman retained more of his natural gifts than did Holmes at an advanced age. Holmes had to fight more like a plodding puncher, and he was never a puncher to begin with, and that would have benefited Foreman.

[bigjake]

[quote=barneyrub]At 08.44 of this video Larry Holmes says he would have beat Ali in his prime, Ali disagrees.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Holmes goes on to say he was best of all time, the only guy he says would give him trouble is Jack Johnson.[/quote

they all say they could have beaten ali in his prime,fact was he was ali's sparring partner for a while.

[Sonny's jab]

I always thought that if Foreman and Holmes had fought in the late 90's - about the time they were originally supposed to fight - that Foreman would have won. The way Foreman looked against Savarese and Briggs - he had good stamina and fought at a good pace in both fights - that he probably would have been able to outwork Holmes, who definitely was lacking in the stamina department at the time. It seemed to me that Foreman retained more of his natural gifts than did Holmes at an advanced age. Holmes had to fight more like a plodding puncher, and he was never a puncher to begin with, and that would have benefited Foreman.

It would have been interesting. Holmes would not have been able to fool Foreman like he did Mercer, or like he tried doing with Holyfield and McCall, laying on the ropes and countering. But he might have been able to box and jab in ring center and steal the win. But you're right, Holmes was flat-footed and tired in his old age, and Foreman wouldn't let him hold and spoil too much or dictate the action, like he got away with against Mercer.

People criticize Foreman for taking on Savarese, Briggs and Schulz when he was 45-48 years old.
But Holmes fought a fair few similar opposition (Scott Frank, Lucien Rodriguez, Scott LeDoux etc.) as champion when he was in his prime.

[AnthonyJ74]

It would have been interesting. Holmes would not have been able to fool Foreman like he did Mercer, or like he tried doing with Holyfield and McCall, laying on the ropes and countering. But he might have been able to box and jab in ring center and steal the win. But you're right, Holmes was flat-footed and tired in his old age, and Foreman wouldn't let him hold and spoil too much or dictate the action, like he got away with against Mercer.

People criticize Foreman for taking on Savarese, Briggs and Schulz when he was 45-48 years old.
But Holmes fought a fair few similar opposition (Scott Frank, Lucien Rodriguez, Scott LeDoux etc.) as champion when he was in his prime.

Savarese and Briggs would have been tough fights for Holmes. Savarese and Briggs were decent opponents; they weren't bums at all. They weren't the cream of the crop, but they were at least live bodies. And Holmes would have had his hands full with either of them. I think Briggs would have beaten him at that stage. Mo' Harris kicked Holmes' butt but didn't get the decision, and Briggs had more power and more tools in my opinion.

[markedwardscott]

Holmes would have given him trouble, but Ali 65 to 67 would have beaten Holmes.

[RoccoMarciano]

Hey - are those tits real, or not?

I'm pretty sure they are.. I think I need to examine them further to make absolutely certain, however :lol:

[Bill1234]

...you're right;he's not an obnoxious jerk-I said I was being nice.In 1980, he fought 3 guys(boxrec.com)-the world's slowest heavy's ever could've done ok with them(I'd probably take Scott Ledoux over Holmes in a street fight).Holmes is way beyond a prick..I don't doubt that he can be a "nice guy" for pr,but I happened to see him training for Leon Spinks(aside from his Rocky Marciano Michael Spinks comment) in Detroit in '81 at Joe Louis Arena.Holmes grabbed the mike,made a bunch of obnoxious Gay jokes about Spinks-half his size-and sent his goon(security) squad into the
crowd to eject anyone making too much noise.Holmes was a seriously asshole version of Rodney Dangerfield.

For public relations he's only nice? I've seen him come stumbling into the gym 100% smashed and barely knowing why he was there and was a great guy. When I went to his resturant he got up, shook my hand, introduced me to his daughter and her fiance, and offered hot wings on the house along with as many beers as we would have liked. In the gym even when he's as mad as Mike Tyson getting refused a blow job, he still has time to give out pointers and help us. What happens is, Larry makes a joke, but he has a bit of speach problem (if you're too oblivious to notice), and he doesn't have good voice inflection or any of that, he either yells, talks stearn, or talks regular. That's all he can do.

Larry didn't like Leon. A bit after they signed to fight Leon was acting like an ass infront of the great Joe Louis him self, taking little boxing glove doo-dads and throwing them at people. He also was making inappropriate comments to Larry's wife. If you talk smack or say something bad to Larry's family, he will beat the hell out of you for it. That's why he kicked Berbick in the face back in 1991.

As for Ledoux over Holmes in a street fight, I highly doubt it. Larry was a damn good street fighter, you had to be growing up in the projects of Easton. IMO Larry was a slugger at heart, he just lacked the power to be one, and knew he had great hand and foot speed, so he boxed instead of slugged for the most part.

[Bill1234]

I'm pretty sure they are.. I think I need to examine them further to make absolutely certain, however :lol:

What's her number?:hey

[Ted Stickles]

Ali was always known to be a less than stellar gym fighter he was known to hold back a lot in the gym and save his best for the actual fight night.....Angelo Dundee has even said this many times, so i think larrys assessment of there sparring sessions is a bit diluted and being a former fighter myself i can understand why Ali might do things that way

[Bill1234]

Larry said in his book that Ali was much better in the acctual fight than he was in sparring. That doesn't mean that Ali didn't go at the sparring partners at times though.

[jaywilton]

For public relations he's only nice? I've seen him come stumbling into the gym 100% smashed and barely knowing why he was there and was a great guy. When I went to his resturant he got up, shook my hand, introduced me to his daughter and her fiance, and offered hot wings on the house along with as many beers as we would have liked. In the gym even when he's as mad as Mike Tyson getting refused a blow job, he still has time to give out pointers and help us. What happens is, Larry makes a joke, but he has a bit of speach problem (if you're too oblivious to notice), and he doesn't have good voice inflection or any of that, he either yells, talks stearn, or talks regular. That's all he can do.

Larry didn't like Leon. A bit after they signed to fight Leon was acting like an ass infront of the great Joe Louis him self, taking little boxing glove doo-dads and throwing them at people. He also was making inappropriate comments to Larry's wife. If you talk smack or say something bad to Larry's family, he will beat the hell out of you for it. That's why he kicked Berbick in the face back in 1991.

As for Ledoux over Holmes in a street fight, I highly doubt it. Larry was a damn good street fighter, you had to be growing up in the projects of Easton. IMO Larry was a slugger at heart, he just lacked the power to be one, and knew he had great hand and foot speed, so he boxed instead of slugged for the most part....that's what I mean when I say I can understand he can be "a nice guy" for pr reasons-obviously,you know him from around Easton.He(and his goons)didn't know anyone at Joe Louis Arena who were removed-I've never seen any other boxer do that...also,I'm really still not sure what he was so pissed about...being regarded as Ali's sparring partner..?So what;Jimmy Ellis also was Ali's sparring partner,Ken Norton was Joe Frazier's sparring partner,George Foreman was Sonny Liston's sparring partner;none of them had "personalities" like Holmes...I seem to remember a Sports Illustrated article on him that said he had a tough time growing up around Easton;fine,I'm not from Easton-and I still don't need to be a fan of his.I still think he uniquely benefitted as "Ali's sparring partner",I don't believe he could beat Ali at his best...and I really think that "he didn't like Leon Spinks " is a lame issue.I used to see Leon when he was living in Detroit-I wish him the best;he needs it.

[Gene Tunney]

Sonny;you duh man.

Sonny, are you really Peter Marciano?

[Bill1234]

...that's what I mean when I say I can understand he can be "a nice guy" for pr reasons-obviously,you know him from around Easton.He(and his goons)didn't know anyone at Joe Louis Arena who were removed-I've never seen any other boxer do that...also,I'm really still not sure what he was so pissed about...being regarded as Ali's sparring partner..?So what;Jimmy Ellis also was Ali's sparring partner,Ken Norton was Joe Frazier's sparring partner,George Foreman was Sonny Liston's sparring partner;none of them had "personalities" like Holmes...I seem to remember a Sports Illustrated article on him that said he had a tough time growing up around Easton;fine,I'm not from Easton-and I still don't need to be a fan of his.I still think he uniquely benefitted as "Ali's sparring partner",I don't believe he could beat Ali at his best...and I really think that "he didn't like Leon Spinks " is a lame issue.I used to see Leon when he was living in Detroit-I wish him the best;he needs it.

You think not liking Leon because Leon said a few things to his wife, and was messing around at a formal dinner in front of the great Joe Louis is a lame excuse for having problems with him? Larry has a temper, and doesn't sugar coat what he says, or lie. If he puts on an act for public relations, than why would he say and do what he did? The only people that seem to have problems with him are the people that constantly pester him and won't let him relax. He does a ton of charity work too, he got the boy of steel award for donating millions for cancer, he basicaly pays all of the bills for the St. Anthony's youth center, and he is willing to back fighters from the gym if they are serious and have even the slightest chance.

[jaywilton]

You think not liking Leon because Leon said a few things to his wife, and was messing around at a formal dinner in front of the great Joe Louis is a lame excuse for having problems with him? Larry has a temper, and doesn't sugar coat what he says, or lie. If he puts on an act for public relations, than why would he say and do what he did? The only people that seem to have problems with him are the people that constantly pester him and won't let him relax. He does a ton of charity work too, he got the boy of steel award for donating millions for cancer, he basicaly pays all of the bills for the St. Anthony's youth center, and he is willing to back fighters from the gym if they are serious and have even the slightest chance.What the great Joe Louis has to say I respect/take seriously-and I don't remember him saying anything about Leon Spinks;what Holmes has to say about anything I don't.It's nice to hear that he supports St. Anthony's Youth Center;most people who aren't crazy about Holmes don't know him personally-and aren't/haven't been pestering him.It sounds like he should he should eat more cheeseburgers and stay drunk more often.

[Sonny's jab]

You gotta love that jockstrap comment he did though. And then he called at Marciano's brother and said, "If any of that offended you, GOOD !" or something like that.

Yeah, he acted like an asshole, but most of those guys at the press conference are assholes too. Larry's possibly a really nice guy, but he certainly comes across as mischievously obnoxious.

Compared to Tyson's "I'll fuck you in the ass 'til you love me faggot !", Holmes's Marciano comments (which were blown all out of proportion by the hypocritical American boxing press) seem very very tame.

"I wish you all had children so I could stomp on their testicles" .... Mike Tyson, to the press.

I love Larry Holmes' flying dropkick off the roof of a limo against Trevor Berbick. A 41 year old Holmes at that. Brilliant !

Apparently Berbick had accused Holmes' and Holmes' family of plotting against Berbick and destroying his relationship. But Berbick was a paranoid guy, to say the least, he had many bizarre tales and conspiracy theories about a great deal of things.
Still, it's sad Berbick met such a grisly end.

[mr. magoo]

You gotta love that jockstrap comment he did though. And then he called at Marciano's brother and said, "If any of that offended you, GOOD !" or something like that.

Yeah, he acted like an asshole, but most of those guys at the press conference are assholes too. Larry's possibly a really nice guy, but he certainly comes across as mischievously obnoxious.

Compared to Tyson's "I'll fuck you in the ass 'til you love me faggot !", Holmes's Marciano comments (which were blown all out of proportion by the hypocritical American boxing press) seem very very tame.

"I wish you all had children so I could stomp on their testicles" .... Mike Tyson, to the press.

I love Larry Holmes' flying dropkick off the roof of a limo against Trevor Berbick. A 41 year old Holmes at that. Brilliant !

Apparently Berbick had accused Holmes' and Holmes' family of plotting against Berbick and destroying his relationship. But Berbick was a paranoid guy, to say the least, he had many bizarre tales and conspiracy theories about a great deal of things.
Still, it's sad Berbick met such a grisly end.

Yeah a lot of these reporters and columnists are jagoffs. Not one of them has the guts to enter the cage, but they sure as hell don't have a problem teasing the tiger, from the outside.

[Mendoza]

Here's the bottom line. Ali had trouble with good jabbers at all states of his career....Jones, Norton, Young, and Lyle.

Holmes had a better jab than any of these fighters.

Ali's un-orthodox guard means he can be hit with fast jabbers. I think Holmes had better stamina than Ali does, and takes far less moments off.


I also think Holmes is a much better in-fighter, with his uppercut and body shots.

So Holmes has the advantage on the outside and inside. Ali’s main advantage might be good will from the judges.

I see a split decision type of fight, with Holmes landing and throwing more. Holmes wins.

[Sonny's jab]

Here's the bottom line. Ali had trouble with good jabbers at all states of his career....Jones, Norton, Young, and Lyle.

Holmes had a better jab than any of these fighters.

Ali's un-orthodox guard means he can be hit with fast jabbers. I think Holmes had better stamina than Ali does, and takes far less moments off.


I also think Holmes is a much better in-fighter, with his uppercut and body shots.

So Holmes has the advantage on the outside and inside. Ali’s main advantage might be good will from the judges.

I see a split decision type of fight, with Holmes landing and throwing more. Holmes wins.

Holmes had trouble with guys who jab fast at him too. Witherspoon and Williams for example. And he had problems with the right hand.
Ali could send a quick right hand in over, or as a one-two combinations, or as a lead.

Sonny Liston and Ernie Terrell had reputations for keeping guys on the outside with a long left jab, but both found no success with that against Ali.

Still, your points are good. But it's a more two-sided equation, IMO.
Ali could exploit weaknesses in Holmes too.

[Bokaj]

Here's the bottom line. Ali had trouble with good jabbers at all states of his career....Jones, Norton, Young, and Lyle.

Holmes had a better jab than any of these fighters.

Ali's un-orthodox guard means he can be hit with fast jabbers. I think Holmes had better stamina than Ali does, and takes far less moments off.


I also think Holmes is a much better in-fighter, with his uppercut and body shots.

So Holmes has the advantage on the outside and inside. Ali’s main advantage might be good will from the judges.

I see a split decision type of fight, with Holmes landing and throwing more. Holmes wins.

"Holme' had the better stamina" - come on!

Ali in his prime had great stamina. He could keep an extremely high pace for 15 rounds, like he did against Terrell and Chuvalo. Holmes tired visibly after 8 or 9 rounds in his fight with Norton, when he was in his prime. I would say hands down that Ali in his prime had the superior stamina.

I'll give you the point about jabs, though. But as previously stated Ali's jab would definitely give Holmes problems as well. And Ali only had trouble with jabs when he stood flat-footed before his opponent, something a prime Ali wouldn't do against Holmes.

[Mendoza]

"Holme' had the better stamina" - come on!

Ali in his prime had great stamina. He could keep an extremely high pace for 15 rounds, like he did against Terrell and Chuvalo. Holmes tired visibly after 8 or 9 rounds in his fight with Norton, when he was in his prime. I would say hands down that Ali in his prime had the superior stamina.

I'll give you the point about jabs, though. But as previously stated Ali's jab would definitely give Holmes problems as well. And Ali only had trouble with jabs when he stood flat-footed before his opponent, something a prime Ali wouldn't do against Holmes.

Ali took more rounds off, clinched more often, and rested on the ropes more often. Yes-- Holmes had better stamina, and threw more punches.

Ali had some issues with Jones and Mildenberg's jab in his prime, and these are years when he moved around a lot.

As for the Norton fight, remember Holmes was fighting with a torn muscle in his arm.

[prime]

Ali's most valuable asset against Holmes would be his rhythm and movement, which would keep a flustered Holmes in clumsy pursuit and not let him establish control of the fight.

More or less, this is Terrell all over again, with Larry doing his angry utmost to blow Ali's head off, but being peppered from unorthodox angles for a decision loss.

[AnthonyJ74]

Ali took more rounds off, clinched more often, and rested on the ropes more often. Yes-- Holmes had better stamina, and threw more punches.

Ali had some issues with Jones and Mildenberg's jab in his prime, and these are years when he moved around a lot.

As for the Norton fight, remember Holmes was fighting with a torn muscle in his arm.

I think you are confusing a prime Ali with the later version of Ali. A prime Ali didn't take many rounds off, and he didn't lay against the ropes for any length of time. Big difference between a 1960's and a 1970's Ali. And that's what's kind of comical about Larry commenting about his time sparring with Ali: Larry never sparred with a prime Ali, but he always boasts how well he did against Ali when they sparred.

[mr. magoo]

"Holme' had the better stamina" - come on!

Ali in his prime had great stamina. He could keep an extremely high pace for 15 rounds, like he did against Terrell and Chuvalo. Holmes tired visibly after 8 or 9 rounds in his fight with Norton, when he was in his prime. I would say hands down that Ali in his prime had the superior stamina.

I'll give you the point about jabs, though. But as previously stated Ali's jab would definitely give Holmes problems as well. And Ali only had trouble with jabs when he stood flat-footed before his opponent, something a prime Ali wouldn't do against Holmes.

Agreed,

even after returning from a four year layoff, he fought in a very competitive high paced fight against Joe Frazier, and neither of those guys stopped throwing punches until the final bell. That's to say nothing about battling a prime Foreman in the god aweful heat of Zaire and taking punches from one of the hardest hitters of all time at age 32. Then there's the Norton Trilogy-another high pressure fast paced series of fights. Earnie Shavers may very well be the best fighter Holmes ever beat, and Ali defeated him 6 months before Holmes did at age 35. Holmes looked like he was going to die in the 11th round against Mike Weaver before launching that huge uppercut. He was also visibly in the late rounds against an aging Norton. I don't think Holmes had better stamina.

[Mendoza]

I think you are confusing a prime Ali with the later version of Ali. A prime Ali didn't take many rounds off, and he didn't lay against the ropes for any length of time. Big difference between a 1960's and a 1970's Ali. And that's what's kind of comical about Larry commenting about his time sparring with Ali: Larry never sparred with a prime Ali, but he always boasts how well he did against Ali when they sparred.

The prime Ali never had his stamina tested in the later rounds in the 1960's. Terell was injured and sloooow in that fight.

Ali's stamina was tested in the 1970's by better fighters, and he rested on the ropes, clinched a lot, covered up, took rounds, off, etc...

In addtion, Holmes is more active on flim. Sorry Ali fan's, let us be objective here.

[groove]

wrong. now tell me the correct answer why a young Ali could dance around much more than the old Ali :rofl

[mr. magoo]

=Mendoza] Sorry Ali fan's, let us be objective here.



Jeeeeezzz.



[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[AnthonyJ74]

The prime Ali never had his stamina tested in the later rounds in the 1960's. Terell was injured and sloooow in that fight.

Ali's stamina was tested in the 1970's by better fighters, and he rested on the ropes, clinched a lot, covered up, took rounds, off, etc...

In addtion, Holmes is more active on flim. Sorry Ali fan's, let us be objective here.

Chicken or the egg. Do you not think the Ali of 1967 would have been more active and less-inclinded to lean on the ropes than the 1971 Ali did? And maybe the reason Ali's stamina was never "tested" as you say in the 1960's is because he never got tired enough to slow down and lay against the ropes like he did in the 1970's. Ali never had to rest or lay on the ropes in the 1960's because he had the stamina to keep moving. Joe Frazier would have had a hard time not only tagging but keeping up with a prime Ali.

[Bill1234]

I think you are confusing a prime Ali with the later version of Ali. A prime Ali didn't take many rounds off, and he didn't lay against the ropes for any length of time. Big difference between a 1960's and a 1970's Ali. And that's what's kind of comical about Larry commenting about his time sparring with Ali: Larry never sparred with a prime Ali, but he always boasts how well he did against Ali when they sparred.

I'd be pretty proud too if I wasn't even pro yet and had only been boxing for 4 years and was Ali's top sparring partner. Larry openly says this is one of his fondest memories, nothing wrong with that. I'm sure he didn't do quite as well as he says, but there is film of him give Ali trouble. He also says he knows Ali wasn't as good in the gym as he was on fightnight, and said that he needed all of those people watching and for the pressure to be on for him to be at his best.

[Bill1234]

Agreed,

even after returning from a four year layoff, he fought in a very competitive high paced fight against Joe Frazier, and neither of those guys stopped throwing punches until the final bell. That's to say nothing about battling a prime Foreman in the god aweful heat of Zaire and taking punches from one of the hardest hitters of all time at age 32. Then there's the Norton Trilogy-another high pressure fast paced series of fights. Earnie Shavers may very well be the best fighter Holmes ever beat, and Ali defeated him 6 months before Holmes did at age 35. Holmes looked like he was going to die in the 11th round against Mike Weaver before launching that huge uppercut. He was also visibly in the late rounds against an aging Norton. I don't think Holmes had better stamina.

Holmes also had the flu in the Weaver fight, so that would limit his stamina quite a bit. Either way though, that wasn't a good night for Larry.

I do agree with much of this post, but it should also be mentioned that Larry had a higher workrate than Ali did, and didn't seem to mind to slug it out for a few rounds of the fight (which drains you much quicker). He looked like he could have gone another 5 rounds against Berbick, Cooney and Cobb. It should be mentioned that Larry fought in Zaire and in Manilla as well, so he fought under the same conditions, of course not through the gruelling rounds that Foreman, Frazier, and Ali did though in those settings, but he fought in plenty of tough ones like the hot night in June of 82.

[Bokaj]

Mendoza, obviously you haven't seen much of Ali and has a clear bias against him. Ali was at his best in the late 60's (he himself, Dundee and many others said so, in Hauser's biograpy for example). During this years he fought at a faster pace than I've seen any other heavyweight do for 15 rounds - against Chuvalo and Terrell for example. If you actually bother to watch these fights you will see that there is little resting and clinching involved and that Ali is up on his toes and punching for almost the whole fight on both occassions.

Against Jones Ali stood flatfooted for some reason and therefore was easier to hit. But the punch Jones gave Ali most trouble with was a right counter, not the jab. This was also when Ali was still very young, before his prime.

Mildenberger's southpaw stance was awkward for Ali, but he didn't land too many clean punches and certainly didn't outjab Ali.

Nuff said.

[Quick Cash]

Ali got up for all his big fights, but I think on average, a prime version of Holmes would prevail over post-exile Ali. I just feel that Larry is a smarter fighter and a better pure boxer. I picture Muhammad possibly over-exerting himself trying to outdo Larry. Larry might even unintentionally drive Muhammad into committing a critical error-- when the time comes for Larry to box, as in dance on his toes, you just know Ali will follow suit just to upstage his former sparring partner! This is not good strategy. He'll get picked off with the jab without a moment's time to adjust or counter-attack. He might muster up a points victory once or twice, but not enough times to overturn a series.

A pre-exile meeting would be harder to predict. Ali's speed would be intact, although I don't see it being a major, deciding factor. Both would present stylistic problems to the other, but their chins are so durable (and their power so lacking) that the knockout is unlikely as well. I think it is a good bet that Ali will find Larry with the overhand right on more than one occasion. This fight here, in all practical sense, is a mirror-image fight like Norton-Garcia.

On average, Holmes SD seems the likeliest for me.

[mcvey]

Holmes beats Ali prime vs prime only if holmes has a .357 with him,other wise Ali wins easy.
I'm sorry ,but if you think Ali beats Holmes easily ,I have to doubt your knowledge of Boxing,Ali is my number 1 at Heavy but Holmes would allways give him a very close fight ,and over a 3 fight series would probably take 1 decision.Holmes actually has better fundamentals than Ali,imo,not quite as fast but a more rounded fighter.

[brown_bomber]

would be a close fight actually but ali wins on decision

[sthomas]

I'd pick Ali up to the Thrilla in Manilla. After that, I'd give Holmes the nod. If an older Norton gave a prime Holmes that much trouble, I'd have to say Ali would have an excellent chance. Stamina of these two is hard to doubt. I watched Manilla last night and Ali & Frazier were banging almost all night long.

[Bill1234]

I'd pick Ali up to the Thrilla in Manilla. After that, I'd give Holmes the nod. If an older Norton gave a prime Holmes that much trouble, I'd have to say Ali would have an excellent chance. Stamina of these two is hard to doubt. I watched Manilla last night and Ali & Frazier were banging almost all night long.

Only past Manilla? The Norton of the Holmes fight fought like he did in his prime. Norton gave all boxers trouble, he just had the style to do it.