A first draft: My hundred greatest boxers of all time, p4p

[McGrain]

As some of you might remember I put together a top 50 a few weeks back. Many of you were kind enough to make suggestions, some of which are incorporated here. Thanks for that (a special thanks to Sweet Scientist).

Here's my effort at fleshing that list out in to a 100, all time. It was difficult. There are enough "honourable mentions" to populate another list of a similair length, so i shall make none.

Anyway:

1 - Sam Langford
2 - Sugar Ray Robinson
3 - Henry Armstrong
4 - Hary Greb
5 - Ezzard Charles
6 - Willie Pep
7 - Mickey Walker
8 - Archie Moore
9 - Roberto Duran
10 - Bob Fitzimmons
11 - Muhammad Ali
12 - Charley Burley
13 - Benny Leonard
14 - Joe Louis
15 - Sugar Ray Leonard
16 - Barney Ross
17 - Sandy Saddler
18 - Joe Gans
19 - Gene Tunney
20 - Roy Jones Junior
21 - Jimmy Wilde
22 - Carlos Monzon
23 - Pernell Whitaker
24 - Barbados Joe Walcott
25 - Tony Canzoneri
26 - Stanley Ketchel
27 - Emile Grifith
28 - Julio Cesar Chavez
29 - Jimmy McLarnin
30 - Jack Britton
31 - George Dixon
32 - Evander Hollyfield
33 - Terry McGovern
34 - Ted "Kid" Lewis
35 - Marvin Hagler
36 - Ruben Olivares
37 - Eder Jofre
38 - Thomas Hearns
39 - Floyd Mayweathe
40 - Jose Napoles
41 - Ike Williams
42 - Alexis Arguello
43 - NonParallel Jack Dempsey
44 - Billy Conn
45 - Sonny Liston
46 - Lennox Lewis
47 - Carlos Ortiz
48 - Holman Williams
49 - Salvador Sanchez
50 - Tommy Ryan
51 - Bernard Hopkins
52 - Ricardo Lopez
53 - Pancho Villa
54 - Micheal Spinks
55 - Mysterious Billy Smith
56 - Abe Atell
57 - Packey McFarland
58 - Jack Dillon
59 - Fighting Harada
60 - Carmen Basillo
61 - Wilfred Benitez
62 - Kid Gavilan
63 - Aaron Pryor
64 - Jimmy Bivins
65 - Joe Frazier
66 - Bob Foster
67 - Manuel Ortiz
68 - Tommy Loughran
69 - Jim Driscoll
70 - Jack Johnson
71 - Jeff Clarke
72 - OScar De La Hoya
73 - Fritzie Zivic
74 - Carlos Zarate
75 - Marco Antonio Barrera
76 - Kid Chocoloate
77 - Jim Jeffries
78 - Eric Morales
79 - Rocky Marciano
80 - Joe Brown
81 - Beau Jack
82 - Maxie Rosenbloom
83 - Eseban de Jesus
84 - Dick Tiger
85 - Battling Nelson
86 - Harold Johnson
87 - Duillio Loi
88 - Cocoa Kid
89 - Jake LaMotta
90 - Eddie Booker
91 - Marcel Cerdan
92 - Mike McCallum
93 - Hecrot Camacho
94 - Panama Al Brown
95 - Lou Ambers
96 - Miguel Canto
97 - Tiger Flowers
98 - Khaosai Galaxy
99 - Pete Herman
100-Pone Kingpetch
101-Benny Lynch


So who have I scandalously left out? Who is to high? Who is to low? Why is there only one Scotsman on this list and is it the right one? Most of all, how many typos can you find?

Criticisim is welcome, this is a work in progress.

[JohnThomas1]

Azumah Nelson. With Sanchez at 49 Nelson can't be too far behind IMO, career wise.

[JohnThomas1]

Another impulse thought is that Holyfield needs to be scaled back.

[JohnThomas1]

Refreshing to see a Walker in the top 10, a nice fresh perspective.

[JohnThomas1]

BTW, please don't take any of my comments as criticism, i respect your time and effort.

[JohnThomas1]

You've totally forgotten Bob Foster i think. Top 5 175 at least IMO.

[McGrain]

JT - you are right about Nelson. I had him on a shortlist for 80-90 but he just kept falling back. But you could be right. Holly stays. He's in y top 12 all time at heavy, is a lock for #1 at cruiser.

[McGrain]

You've totally forgotten Bob Foster i think. Top 5 175 at least IMO.

You are quite correct.

Had him jotted down as somewhere right around Loughran.

First edit, here goes.

[JohnThomas1]

JT - you are right about Nelson. I had him on a shortlist for 80-90 but he just kept falling back. But you could be right. Holly stays. He's in y top 12 all time at heavy, is a lock for #1 at cruiser.

Yeah Holy has that cruiser thing happening for him P4P, but being the best cruiser of all time possibly isn't THAT high an acclaim and he wasn't there long. Never the less it is another string admittedly. I could never leave Nelson out.

How about Jeff Fenech :shock:

[McGrain]

How about Jeff Fenech :shock:

Favourite of yours is he? :D

Didn't make it. Don't like the featheweight thing, not desperately impressed. Tough hombre, serious fighter, would make the 200, but better than Pete Herman? Not for me.

Foster is in, thanks.

[Holmes' Jab]

Very good list overall, not that much at all to fault. A few I'd suggest would be: Armstrong higher (maybe #1), Napoles too. I would have Duran and Fitz a tad lower, but that might be just be me.

Nelson would be worth consideration too.

[JohnThomas1]

Favourite of yours is he? :D

Didn't make it. Don't like the featheweight thing, not desperately impressed. Tough hombre, serious fighter, would make the 200, but better than Pete Herman? Not for me.

Foster is in, thanks.

Well i am glad you forgot Foster, he would have been a painful omission for me lol. I'd sure be forgetting some too.

[JohnThomas1]

TBH i wouldn't hesitate to drop Camacho for Nelson. Azumah has him covered in just about every single criteria.

[McGrain]

Well i am glad you forgot Foster, he would have been a painful omission for me lol. I'd sure be forgetting some too.

What happens is you make detailed notes, set a place - say 45-48 (you can't get to definite because some placings "look" wrong) and then totally forget about them.

Nelson > Camacho, noted.

[JohnThomas1]

What happens is you make detailed notes, set a place - say 45-48 (you can't get to definite because some placings "look" wrong) and then totally forget about them.

Nelson > Camacho, noted.

Yeah, i think i'd get a few top hundred lists and start going from there. Then maybe go thru a good list and see if any big names were left out. A tough task whichever way we look at it. Kudo's to all you guys making such detailed lists.

[McGrain]

Yeah, i think i'd get a few top hundred lists and start going from there.

That feels kind of counter intuitive to me, I think i'd end up pandering.

Much happier this way, setting it up to be shot at by some smart guys who aren't that much smarter than me (if at all ;) ) and editing/arguing/defending/changing, whatever it may prove to be.

[JohnThomas1]

Some might consider Buchanan above DeJesus too.

[JohnThomas1]

That feels kind of counter intuitive to me, I think i'd end up pandering.

Much happier this way, setting it up to be shot at by some smart guys who aren't that much smarter than me (if at all ;) ) and editing/arguing/defending/changing, whatever it may prove to be.

Much more fun

:good

[JohnThomas1]

Given his second career title i'd have to possibly sneak Foreman in too. I think lol

[JohnThomas1]

A lot of Heavyweights there to be minus Holmes too.

[McGrain]

Very good list overall, not that much at all to fault. A few I'd suggest would be: Armstrong higher (maybe #1), Napoles too. I would have Duran and Fitz a tad lower, but that might be just be me.

Nelson would be worth consideration too.

I think Amstrong outside a top 5 is mad, but anything inside is OK with me. He's certianly a candidate for #1 - I think anyone in this top 4 is.

Napoles is a great fighter, but one I feel is generally overated. I'm happy with his placing - in his "zone" are guys like Conn, Hearns, Jack Dempsey (MW) - surely he's not inately superior to these men?

Duran can't be outside the top 10. Stonehands goes mental.

Fitz, all time great puncher with ranking cudos from MW to HW - not a lock for the top 10, but a fighter who belongs there or thereabouts.

[JohnThomas1]

I know he's a fave of yours but i really think Sonny, who i am in awe of, has to be dropped quite some places.

[Holmes' Jab]

Or how about Jack McAuliffe?

Perhaps an outside bet to make the lower end of the list, however he was extremely highly regarded by a vast number of boxing experts during his era (especially P4P).

[mcvey]

George Kid Lavigne in Camacho out. Freddie Welsh,Joe Jeanette,Harry Wills,Owen Moran,Peter Jackson,Jackie Kid Berg ,all possibles, imo.Who do you leave out ? Thats the problem.

[Mendoza]

Comments:

I suppose the order is in a pound for pound sense...

Why Dick Tiger, Eddie Booker, and Aussie Billy Smith? What is the quick case for them?

Holyfield, Ketchel and R. Jones seem a bit high on the list.

I think some modern fighters such as Larry Holmes, Floyd Mayweather, and Oscar De la Hoya have done enough to rate. I did not see them on the list.

Good effort overall.

[McGrain]

Some might consider Buchanan above DeJesus too.

Funny you should say this, because I very much wanted to get Buchanan onto the list. It's perhaps the case that I have been too hard on him in an effort to avoid bias...but I do think that the Duran win gives DeJesus the edge here.

Foreman: :scaredas:

Liston: In my opinion is a better fighter than almost every heavyweight there ever was. He's the third heavyweight to appear on my HW list, and the third heavyweight to appear on this list, happily - although he's a bit further behind Louis here than on the HW list, if you understand what I mean.

Holmes: I have Holmes lower than most on my HW list and am aware of the fact - poor competition, the Spinks thing makes me suspicious and I think he is generally overated by the community at large. Tyson was very nearly my 100 - he's better, p4p, than Holmes in my opinion.

[McGrain]

George Kid Lavigne in Camacho out. Freddie Welsh,Joe Jeanette,Harry Wills,Owen Moran,Peter Jackson,Jackie Kid Berg ,all possibles, imo.Who do you leave out ? Thats the problem.

You're the second guy to mention Camacho as overated here so I'll take serious note of that - I've always enjoyed him and always felt that he was a special fighter when comited. But fair enough.

You mention some cracking fighters here, and in a second hundred they'd be locks, but as you say - limited space.

This covers your interesting McAuliffe shout to HJ?

[McGrain]

Why Dick Tiger, Eddie Booker, and Aussie Billy Smith? What is the quick case for them?

Briefly:

Dick Tiger is, I think, the greatest punching MW of them all. I am consistantly impressed by him in all avenues. He looks proper in all the footage I have seen, has great, great wins at LHW, an awkward weight for him and dominated great physical fighters with his own physicality at 160 (Giardello, Fulmer, Carter) which pretty much means he can't be outpunched/muscled at the weight. His only weakness was with pure boxers - and he beat a couple.

I also admire his will and drive. Let's not forget, he rose to become the greatest fighter Africa has ever produced after having been considered little more than an "opponent" for a number of years.

Eddie Booker is obviously a fighter I have never seen. I'm forced, then, to use second hand accounts to form my opinion. Moore called him the best fighter he ever fought - high praise indeed - and Booker fought from Middle to Heavy without being stopped.

He beat Moore of course, as well as guys like Williams, Hogue and although he dropped a few, Booker had the kind of luck that I feel makes this excusable. A great fighter, perhaps one of the most underated of all time

Billy Smith beat Walcott, McCoy, Lavigne, Maber etc., is twice WW champ (17 fight unbeaten streak during his second turn according to some). He seems a special talent happy to mix in top company on multipe occasions, ducking nobody. He's a proper nut, and I like that. I don't think he is placed to high here, although I have actually moved him down a couple of slots.

Holyfield, Ketchel and R. Jones seem a bit high on the list.

Holyfield is a lock for my HW top 15, not enough to get him up to that slot of course, but he is also undoubtedly #1 in the Cruiser division, lineal champ in both, I believe. I'm happy with his placement.

Ketchel is one of the greatest punchers to ever fight, it seems, but that alone wouldn't do. Unbeaten middlweight champ with more defences than any other middleweight champ is what gets him onto this list - the series of duels with O'Brien and Papke plus the drawn bought with my choice for the greatest of all time is the thing that sees him riding so high.

Jones is a sublime athlete, the most extraordinarly gifted fighter captured on film - he holds belts from Middle to Heavy to help describe this brilliance. I'm happy with Roy at 20.



I think some modern fighters such as Larry Holmes, Floyd Mayweather, and Oscar De la Hoya have done enough to rate. I did not see them on the list.

Holmes misses out by 20-30 spots, Mayweather rides high at 39, Oscar is at 72

Good effort overall.

Thanks.

[sweet_scientist]

As some of you might remember I put together a top 50 a few weeks back. Many of you were kind enough to make suggestions, some of which are incorporated here. Thanks for that (a special thanks to Sweet Scientist).

Here's my effort at fleshing that list out in to a 100, all time. It was difficult. There are enough "honourable mentions" to populate another list of a similair length, so i shall make none.

Anyway:

1 - Sam Langford
2 - Sugar Ray Robinson
3 - Henry Armstrong
4 - Hary Greb
5 - Ezzard Charles
6 - Willie Pep
7 - Mickey Walker
8 - Archie Moore
9 - Roberto Duran
10 - Bob Fitzimmons
11 - Muhammad Ali
12 - Charley Burley
13 - Benny Leonard
14 - Joe Louis
15 - Sugar Ray Leonard
16 - Barney Ross
17 - Sandy Saddler
18 - Joe Gans
19 - Gene Tunney
20 - Roy Jones Junior
21 - Jimmy Wilde
22 - Carlos Monzon
23 - Pernell Whitaker
24 - Barbados Joe Walcott
25 - Tony Canzoneri
26 - Stanley Ketchel
27 - Emile Grifith
28 - Julio Cesar Chavez
29 - Jimmy McLarnin
30 - Jack Britton
31 - George Dixon
32 - Evander Hollyfield
33 - Terry McGovern
34 - Ted "Kid" Lewis
35 - Marvin Hagler
36 - Ruben Olivares
37 - Eder Jofre
38 - Thomas Hearns
39 - Floyd Mayweathe
40 - Jose Napoles
41 - Ike Williams
42 - Alexis Arguello
43 - NonParallel Jack Dempsey
44 - Billy Conn
45 - Sonny Liston
46 - Lennox Lewis
47 - Carlos Ortiz
48 - Holman Williams
49 - Salvador Sanchez
50 - Tommy Ryan
51 - Bernard Hopkins
52 - Ricardo Lopez
53 - Pancho Villa
54 - Micheal Spinks
55 - Mysterious Billy Smith
56 - Abe Atell
57 - Packey McFarland
58 - Jack Dillon
59 - Fighting Harada
60 - Carmen Basillo
61 - Wilfred Benitez
62 - Kid Gavilan
63 - Aaron Pryor
64 - Jimmy Bivins
65 - Joe Frazier
66 - Bob Foster
67 - Manuel Ortiz
68 - Tommy Loughran
69 - Jim Driscoll
70 - Jack Johnson
71 - Jeff Clarke
72 - OScar De La Hoya
73 - Fritzie Zivic
74 - Carlos Zarate
75 - Marco Antonio Barrera
76 - Kid Chocoloate
77 - Jim Jeffries
78 - Eric Morales
79 - Rocky Marciano
80 - Joe Brown
81 - Beau Jack
82 - Maxie Rosenbloom
83 - Eseban de Jesus
84 - Dick Tiger
85 - Battling Nelson
86 - Harold Johnson
87 - Duillio Loi
88 - Cocoa Kid
89 - Jake LaMotta
90 - Eddie Booker
91 - Marcel Cerdan
92 - Mike McCallum
93 - Hecrot Camacho
94 - Panama Al Brown
95 - Lou Ambers
96 - Miguel Canto
97 - Tiger Flowers
98 - Khaosai Galaxy
99 - Pete Herman
100-Pone Kingpetch
101-Benny Lynch


So who have I scandalously left out? Who is to high? Who is to low? Why is there only one Scotsman on this list and is it the right one? Most of all, how many typos can you find?

Criticisim is welcome, this is a work in progress.

Nice effort Macca. Pretty solid up the top and then gets a little more subjective in the bottom half, as lists of this sort tend to do.

I'll only mention some fighters who I think should be top 100 that you've left out, but it's all pretty arguable nonetheless so I'm not going to criticise you for leaving them out:

Nicolino Locche
Billy Graham
Azumah Nelson
Owen Moran
Jack Blackburn
Dave Holly
Vicente Saldivar
Antonio Cervantes
Pascual Perez
Sammy Angott
Johnny Dundee
Johnny Kilbane
Jackie Kid Berg
Joey Giardello
Luis Rodriguez
George Dixon
Lew Tendler
Young Griffo
Bob Montgomery
Felix Trinidad
Mike Gibbons

[McGrain]

Nicolino Locche
Billy Graham
Azumah Nelson
Owen Moran
Jack Blackburn
Dave Holly
Vicente Saldivar
Antonio Cervantes
Pascual Perez
Sammy Angott
Johnny Dundee
Johnny Kilbane
Jackie Kid Berg
Joey Giardello
Luis Rodriguez
George Dixon
Lew Tendler
Young Griffo
Bob Montgomery
Felix Trinidad
Mike Gibbons

Cheers dude.

Some of these narrowly missed out (Trinidad, Young Griffo) some of them made it (Dixon is at 31 ;) ), some of them didn't get the consideration they deserve perhaps (Tendler, Giardello) and i'll look again...how about firming it up for me, pick the 3-6 you'd most like to see on any list.

[sweet_scientist]

Cheers dude.

Some of these narrowly missed out (Trinidad, Young Griffo) some of them made it (Dixon is at 31 ;) ), some of them didn't get the consideration they deserve perhaps (Tendler, Giardello) and i'll look again...how about firming it up for me, pick the 3-6 you'd most like to see on any list.

D'oh, missed Dixon :patsch

Okay, just to give you an idea of how I have them, going by their placements on my p4p list:

51. Azumah Nelson
52. Nicolino Locche
59. Billy Graham
63. Joey Giardello
67. Joey Giardello
74. Owen Moran
73. Antonio Cervantes
76.Vicente Saldivar
78. Jack Blackburn
79. Dave Holly
80. Lew Tendler
88. Pascual Perez
89. Felix Trinidad
90. Sammy Angott
91. Bob Mongomery
92. Young Griffo
97. Johnny Kilbane
96. Johnny Dundee
98. Mike Gibbons
99. Jackie Kid Berg

Notice most are pretty high up, so I can't really make too much of a fuss on some you've missed out. The ones most deserving though, I'd say are the ones highest up on my p4p list.

[McGrain]

51. Azumah Nelson
52. Nicolino Locche

These two were both under close consideration but were pushed out...perhaps rashly.


63. Joey Giardello
67. Joey Giardello.

You might want to have a look at this situation though :D

Seriously though, thanks again.

[sweet_scientist]

These two were both under close consideration but were pushed out...perhaps rashly.

:good


You might want to have a look at this situation though :D

Seriously though, thanks again.

Ahaha, he was THAT good!

Sorry about that, I meant Luis Rodriguez at 63,Giardello at 67.

[Florida boy]

Good list, to many old timers on there. IMO.

[Dempsey1238]

I would have rated the Rock over Lewis, pound for pound, and and of couse heavyweights.

[Russell]

Comments:

I suppose the order is in a pound for pound sense...

Why Dick Tiger, Eddie Booker, and Aussie Billy Smith? What is the quick case for them?

Holyfield, Ketchel and R. Jones seem a bit high on the list.

I think some modern fighters such as Larry Holmes, Floyd Mayweather, and Oscar De la Hoya have done enough to rate. I did not see them on the list.

Good effort overall.

I agree with Roy Jones being too high. Same with Ketchel.

Legendary puncher, Ketchel, and a nightmare H2H... But what did he ever accomplish?

Jones being above Whitaker is a crime, I think.

[Florida boy]

I agree with Roy Jones being too high. Same with Ketchel.

Legendary puncher, Ketchel, and a nightmare H2H... But what did he ever accomplish?

Jones being above Whitaker is a crime, I think.
Jones was the greatest of all time. Jones accomplished more then Whitaker, so i dont see your beef. Accomplishments dont mean shit if somebody head to head from history would have handed them there ass.

[Russell]

Greatest of all time. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Conversations over, methinks.

[Florida boy]

Greatest of all time. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Conversations over, methinks.
Talent wise yes. In his prime, i wouldnt pick any one over him. Robinson would be a good choice to pull it off, but i wouldnt count on it.

[sweet_scientist]

Jones was the greatest of all time. Jones accomplished more then Whitaker, so i dont see your beef. Accomplishments dont mean shit if somebody head to head from history would have handed them there ass.

By what criteria did Jones accomplish more?

[radianttwilight]

How did you go about assembling this list? I've been thinking about doing one, but my method will be weird.

To try not to exclude anyone who's deserving, I'm going to do a Top 10 (or 20) for each weight class, with maybe an extra class or two for the "floater" type guys who aren't highly ranked in any one division but are P4P status based on accomplishments in several divisions.

I think that all of the P4P top 100 choices are top 10s in one weight class or another (with the few exceptions still being in the top 20 at a weight), so it seems to be a pretty easy way to at least get a gargantuan list of candidates going. From there, I can axe the names that I don't feel make the cut and order those that do.

[Stonehands89]

Duran can't be outside the top 10. Stonehands goes mental.


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... WHA?! Duran --outside the top 10?? Who? Where?! I'm going beserk! I'm losing it! I'M LOSING IT!!
oh.
You got him at #9.
That's fair enough.

G'night.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

[Russell]

Talent wise yes. In his prime, i wouldnt pick any one over him. Robinson would be a good choice to pull it off, but i wouldnt count on it.

Good thing this isn't a top 100 of the most talented fighters of all time then, eh?

[TBooze]

It always tricky to do a first top 100, excellent effort.

You done better than me, the first time I tried, I miseed Mickey Walker!

[McGrain]

Legendary puncher, Ketchel, and a nightmare H2H... But what did he ever accomplish?.

Until Hagler, he held the record for the most title defences at Middle.

Fought a draw with the greatest fighter who ever lived!

[McGrain]

Jones being above Whitaker is a crime, I think.

The heavyweight belt puts him over the top in my view. OK, it's one fight at that weight but I personally consider it an astonishing achievment. There is not much between these two - as indiciated by their close placement - but I also consider Jones the better of the two, which made it easier.

[McGrain]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz... WHA?! Duran --outside the top 10?? Who? Where?! I'm going beserk! I'm losing it! I'M LOSING IT!!
oh.
You got him at #9.
That's fair enough.

G'night.
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...

:lol:

[McGrain]

Harry greb is not number 1. List invalid.

Langford KO1 Harry Greb.

[McGrain]

It always tricky to do a first top 100, excellent effort.

You done better than me, the first time I tried, I miseed Mickey Walker!

Thanks - forgot Bob Foster.

What stands out for you as wrong? Who should be in that isn't? Anyone particularly undeserving?

Tell you what I found hard - the bottom 20 or so. I'm basicallly of the opinion that you could have used any 20 of around 80 fighters and it would have been acceptable. So I may have used that part of the list to "right some wrongs".

[JohnThomas1]

Until Hagler, he held the record for the most title defences at Middle.

Fought a draw with the greatest fighter who ever lived!

Is his fight vs SRR available on film?

[sweet_scientist]

The heavyweight belt puts him over the top in my view. OK, it's one fight at that weight but I personally consider it an astonishing achievment. There is not much between these two - as indiciated by their close placement - but I also consider Jones the better of the two, which made it easier.

If you consider him a better fighter that's fair enough, an argument can be made for that, but basing it on him beating John Ruiz is pretty dicey imo, especially after we saw a 10 year past his prime James Toney accomplish the same 'astonishing' feat.

[JohnThomas1]

I'm basicallly of the opinion that you could have used any 20 of around 80 fighters and it would have been acceptable.
[Only registered and activated users can see links]






:yep

[TBooze]

Thanks - forgot Bob Foster.

What stands out for you as wrong? Who should be in that isn't? Anyone particularly undeserving?

Tell you what I found hard - the bottom 20 or so. I'm basicallly of the opinion that you could have used any 20 of around 80 fighters and it would have been acceptable. So I may have used that part of the list to "right some wrongs".

There is no right or wrong to it: I had the following in my top 75 that (I think) you did not have:

Georges Carpentier (22)
Johnny Kilbane (39)
George Foreman (41)
Pascual Perez (49)
Ruben Olivares (51)
Azumah Nelson (52)
Eusebio Pedroza (59)
Antonio Cervantes (62)
Flash Elorde (67)
Jack Dempsey (Heavyweight) (68)
Nino Benvenuti (72)
Young Griffo (74)
Lennox Lewis (75)

[TBooze]

Until Hagler, he held the record for the most title defences at Middle.

Fought a draw with the greatest fighter who ever lived!

I think the man who still holds the record (Monzon) may beg to differ.;)

[McGrain]

Is his fight vs SRR available on film?


Ooooooooooooo it'd be a good one!

[McGrain]

If you consider him a better fighter that's fair enough, an argument can be made for that, but basing it on him beating John Ruiz is pretty dicey imo, especially after we saw a 10 year past his prime James Toney accomplish the same 'astonishing' feat.

I personally don't consider beating Ruiz that astonishing, and it has to be taken into consideration that there are multiple titles on offer, BUT, I consider belts at three weights - including the monster haul at LHW - the stamp that confirms Jones great quality - with his apparent fetish for titles, Jones in many ways constitutes the "Anti-Langford", who fought at all those weights and got, well, rather less belts.

But I do think that Jones and Langford have more in common than they have issues which seperate them actually. They are both true phenoms. Given that there is no film of Greb, I'd argue that Jones is the most physically gifted fighter to be captured on film, a one off, a never-to-be repeated mix of skill and talent that sees him ride higher on my list than would be the case based purely upon his achievments.

Every list I complete is composite - which means I try to take into account everything that I can, record, resume, losses, how a fighter appears to my eye on film etc. etc. etc. - but really this is just a fancy way of saying "I feel my way through it", i base a lot of this on what "feels" right".

Downside? It'll be idiosyncratic, so you'll see guys like Eddie Booker riding high. He probably wouldn't appear on any other top 100 (well, maybe Archie Moore's :D ), but the upside is I can display my list, take advice and criticism without getting to defencive and hopefully build it up into something pretty special.

The bottom line of all of this chat? Jones and Whitaker stay where they are. Probably.

[McGrain]

There is no right or wrong to it: I had the following in my top 75 that (I think) you did not have:

Georges Carpentier (22)
Johnny Kilbane (39)
George Foreman (41)
Pascual Perez (49)
Ruben Olivares (51)
Azumah Nelson (52)
Eusebio Pedroza (59)
Antonio Cervantes (62)
Flash Elorde (67)
Jack Dempsey (Heavyweight) (68)
Nino Benvenuti (72)
Young Griffo (74)
Lennox Lewis (75)

Some fo these are on my list, yes, including Lewis way up in the top 50! You're very into redemption etc., so I always take that into account when viewing your lists (Foreman :dead ) but there are some interesting omitions from my list, first amoung them Nelson. Something may have to be done there, to many smart guys shouting about him. But I must confess - I don't think he makes my top 65 or anything like it at this point. So he's down with the "softies" the slots where any one of 70 or 80 guys would be comfy. If I put him in i might end up being "for show".

[McGrain]

I think the man who still holds the record (Monzon) may beg to differ.;)

:oops:

Ketchel ko7 Monzon.

[McGrain]

How did you go about assembling this list? I've been thinking about doing one, but my method will be weird.

To try not to exclude anyone who's deserving, I'm going to do a Top 10 (or 20) for each weight class, with maybe an extra class or two for the "floater" type guys who aren't highly ranked in any one division but are P4P status based on accomplishments in several divisions.

I think that all of the P4P top 100 choices are top 10s in one weight class or another (with the few exceptions still being in the top 20 at a weight), so it seems to be a pretty easy way to at least get a gargantuan list of candidates going. From there, I can axe the names that I don't feel make the cut and order those that do.

That's a fine way to start - it sounds silly, but I got mine by trying to sort out a ten.

Late last year I had a long conversation with Stonehands about Duran, and by the end of it my top 10 p4p list was in shit.

My basic problem was I had 10 slots and 15 names. So I worked up a 15. Then in a conversation with Sweet Pea, I worked up an ad hoc 20. Took about two days to build a 50 after that.

I posted the 50 in Classic, took a bunch of names from a bunch of smart guys and reworked the fifty. This left me with 53 names. Working that up to about 180 names took me about three weeks. Working it down again was much, much easier until I got to the last 15 or so and realised just how many great fighters I was going to have to leave off.

Then you start thinking about a top 150...

But in the end it's going to be your subjective opinion that counts for most, and you have to keep that in mind. There is no formula here. If there were, Janitor would have reworked it to prove that the top 100 fighters are comprised of pre-1930's competitors by now.

Good luck.

[Minotauro]

No Wilfredo Gomez or Carlos Ortiz also feels Jones Jr is to hight Whittaker, Walcott and Canzoneri did much more then him. Pretty good list otherwise a top 100 is tough to do especially the latter part.

[McGrain]

No Wilfredo Gomez or Carlos Ortiz also feels Jones Jr is to hight Whittaker, Walcott and Canzoneri did much more then him. Pretty good list otherwise a top 100 is tough to do especially the latter part.

Ortiz is in at 47.

Jones is too high for some peole, that is clear enough - but i'm happy with his position. Comparing across eras requires some flexibility and i'm setting out not to punish modern guys for making more money/having better safety measures in place. For the bulk of my reasoning, see post 57.

I agree with you about the bottom end, the last 15 or so is basically en excersise in futility - or it felt that way, perhaps I will get there. Anyway, I would recomend that anybody setting out consider a top 150 rather than 100. Seriously.

[sweet_scientist]

I personally don't consider beating Ruiz that astonishing, and it has to be taken into consideration that there are multiple titles on offer, BUT, I consider belts at three weights - including the monster haul at LHW - the stamp that confirms Jones great quality - with his apparent fetish for titles, Jones in many ways constitutes the "Anti-Langford", who fought at all those weights and got, well, rather less belts.


But I do think that Jones and Langford have more in common than they have issues which seperate them actually. They are both true phenoms. Given that there is no film of Greb, I'd argue that Jones is the most physically gifted fighter to be captured on film, a one off, a never-to-be repeated mix of skill and talent that sees him ride higher on my list than would be the case based purely upon his achievments.

Every list I complete is composite - which means I try to take into account everything that I can, record, resume, losses, how a fighter appears to my eye on film etc. etc. etc. - but really this is just a fancy way of saying "I feel my way through it", i base a lot of this on what "feels" right".

Downside? It'll be idiosyncratic, so you'll see guys like Eddie Booker riding high. He probably wouldn't appear on any other top 100 (well, maybe Archie Moore's :D ), but the upside is I can display my list, take advice and criticism without getting to defencive and hopefully build it up into something pretty special.

The bottom line of all of this chat? Jones and Whitaker stay where they are. Probably.

That's fair enough.

Whilst I think Jones' level of competition leaves a bit to be desired there is no questioning his dominance and talent, which are almost unparalleled in the history of the sport.

[Vanboxingfan]

It seems to me Jack Dempsey should be on the list. Many of the guys he fought Willard, etc. were significantly bigger than him. And Tunney's main claim to fame was his two victories over him. Seems to me if Marciano and Frazier on this list, he should be too.

Great list btw.

[joe33]

You all see someone has posted a thread in the main forum taking the piss out of this one?

[JohnThomas1]

I can't believe i did not notice Wilfredo Gomez missing.

[McGrain]

I can't believe i did not notice Wilfredo Gomez missing.

Well that makes two of us bub.

[mcvey]

Lewis is a top ANYTHING p4p is ludicrous. He's barely top ten as a heavyweight and ALL of his best wins are against people he had immense size and weight advantages over. he's fucking negative in the pound for pound rankings.
Lewis holds wins over Bruno 6 3 who was heavier than him Ruddock 6 3 about the same weight,Tucker same height and near weight,Grant,was bigger and heavier,same for Klitshcko, so I don,t see your argument.And Im not a particular fan of Lewis.

[McGrain]

On what grounds to you justify putting grebb so high? i mean you NEVER saw him fight after all.

Resume, achievments, dominance.

I've no problem with a list that excludes fighters who are not filmed as long as it identifies itself as such. I also don't think you can call that list all time anything - because it isn't such a thing.

Having no film of a fighter is a handicap. So is comparing a fighter like Jones, who has only a handful of fights compared to Greb's 300.

Trying to find an even playing field for these guys is part of the fun and also difficulty.

Would you exclude Greb alltogether from such a list because there is no footage of him?

[JohnThomas1]

Well that makes two of us bub.

:lol:

[RoccoMarciano]

I don't get into HWs being included in these types of lists.

[Sweet Pea]

On what grounds to you justify putting grebb so high? i mean you NEVER saw him fight after all.His resume is better than any man who's ever laced up a pair of boxing gloves. That shpuld about do it. We've seen the men he beat, and know they were the best of the time, from MW to HW, that should help.

Anyways, I agree that based on resume, Jones above a Canzoneri, Walcott, Whitaker is no good, but in terms of ability, a case can be made that he's near there. Even a Jones fan like me doesn't have him that high though, certainly not higher than Whitaker or the others mentioned.

[RafaelGonzal]

As some of you might remember I put together a top 50 a few weeks back. Many of you were kind enough to make suggestions, some of which are incorporated here. Thanks for that (a special thanks to Sweet Scientist).

Here's my effort at fleshing that list out in to a 100, all time. It was difficult. There are enough "honourable mentions" to populate another list of a similair length, so i shall make none.

Anyway:

1 - Sam Langford
2 - Sugar Ray Robinson
3 - Henry Armstrong
4 - Hary Greb
5 - Ezzard Charles
6 - Willie Pep
7 - Mickey Walker
8 - Archie Moore
9 - Roberto Duran
10 - Bob Fitzimmons
11 - Muhammad Ali
12 - Charley Burley
13 - Benny Leonard
14 - Joe Louis
15 - Sugar Ray Leonard
16 - Barney Ross
17 - Sandy Saddler
18 - Joe Gans
19 - Gene Tunney
20 - Roy Jones Junior
21 - Jimmy Wilde
22 - Carlos Monzon
23 - Pernell Whitaker
24 - Barbados Joe Walcott
25 - Tony Canzoneri
26 - Stanley Ketchel
27 - Emile Grifith
28 - Julio Cesar Chavez
29 - Jimmy McLarnin
30 - Jack Britton
31 - George Dixon
32 - Evander Hollyfield
33 - Terry McGovern
34 - Ted "Kid" Lewis
35 - Marvin Hagler
36 - Ruben Olivares
37 - Eder Jofre
38 - Thomas Hearns
39 - Floyd Mayweathe
40 - Jose Napoles
41 - Ike Williams
42 - Alexis Arguello
43 - NonParallel Jack Dempsey
44 - Billy Conn
45 - Sonny Liston
46 - Lennox Lewis
47 - Carlos Ortiz
48 - Holman Williams
49 - Salvador Sanchez
50 - Tommy Ryan
51 - Bernard Hopkins
52 - Ricardo Lopez
53 - Pancho Villa
54 - Micheal Spinks
55 - Mysterious Billy Smith
56 - Abe Atell
57 - Packey McFarland
58 - Jack Dillon
59 - Fighting Harada
60 - Carmen Basillo
61 - Wilfred Benitez
62 - Kid Gavilan
63 - Aaron Pryor
64 - Jimmy Bivins
65 - Joe Frazier
66 - Bob Foster
67 - Manuel Ortiz
68 - Tommy Loughran
69 - Jim Driscoll
70 - Jack Johnson
71 - Jeff Clarke
72 - OScar De La Hoya
73 - Fritzie Zivic
74 - Carlos Zarate
75 - Marco Antonio Barrera
76 - Kid Chocoloate
77 - Jim Jeffries
78 - Eric Morales
79 - Rocky Marciano
80 - Joe Brown
81 - Beau Jack
82 - Maxie Rosenbloom
83 - Eseban de Jesus
84 - Dick Tiger
85 - Battling Nelson
86 - Harold Johnson
87 - Duillio Loi
88 - Cocoa Kid
89 - Jake LaMotta
90 - Eddie Booker
91 - Marcel Cerdan
92 - Mike McCallum
93 - Hecrot Camacho
94 - Panama Al Brown
95 - Lou Ambers
96 - Miguel Canto
97 - Tiger Flowers
98 - Khaosai Galaxy
99 - Pete Herman
100-Pone Kingpetch
101-Benny Lynch


So who have I scandalously left out? Who is to high? Who is to low? Why is there only one Scotsman on this list and is it the right one? Most of all, how many typos can you find?

Criticisim is welcome, this is a work in progress.

WILFREDO GOMEZ!!!!

[RafaelGonzal]

I can't believe i did not notice Wilfredo Gomez missing.


Thank you that is without a doubt the biggest glaring weakness of this list. and also no Carlos Zarate.

[JohnThomas1]

Thank you that is without a doubt the biggest glaring weakness of this list. and also no Carlos Zarate.

74 - Carlos Zarate