Rocky Marciano's Power

[Bummy Davis]

Knockout Ratio 88%! [Only registered and activated users can see links] 21, 1955...Marciano clubs Archie Moore, dropping the challenger 3 times and knocking him out in the 9th round. Yankee Stadium, New York City. This was Marciano's last fight.

"Why waltz 10 rounds with an opponent if you can KO him in one?" Rocky Marciano.

It is the Knock Out that excites boxing fans, as much as the Grand Slam in baseball. The power puncher who can take out an opponent with one savage blow at any time in the fight is always going to make for an interesting fight. There have been great sluggers in boxing; Dempsey, Louis, Foreman, Sugar Ray Robinson, Archie Moore, to name a few of the best.
The Ring magazine rates the best punchers on the criteria of those who can knock out quality opponents even in the later rounds, and who can knock out heavier opposition. Of the heavywieghts, the September 1997 issue of The Ring rated the three best punchers as Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, and Rocky Marciano.
Of Marciano they said,"He never sought refuge in a clinch, never tired, and couldn't be hurt....He was an unstoppable force, breaking bodies and spirits. It was a hellish experiance to fight him...Like Dempsey and Louis, he was able to get his whole body into a punch."
When Marciano was destroying all challengers with his blockbuster assault, the U.S. Testing Co. was asked to measure the power of Rocky's wallop. Its findings:
"Marciano's knockout blow packs more explosive energy than an armour-piercing bullet and represents as much energy as would be required to spot lift 1000 pounds one foot off the ground." Boxing Illustrated December 1963
Bert Sugar (Foremost Boxing Historian):

"As indestructible as any fighter in history, Marciano walked into-and through- thousands of hard, clean, jolting shots in the manner of a human steamroller, wrecking his opponents with baseball-bat swings to the arms, the midsection, the head, and just about anything else in reach. Always ready to take two or three punches to land one, the determined Marciano melted down the guards of his opponents, and with the shortest arms in the history of the heavyweight division, hewed them down to size." He said of Marciano's right hand power punch, called the "Suzie-Q", "It was one of the most devastating weapons ever brought into a ring." Where Did the Power Come From?

How does a 187 pound man hit harder than a 200+ pound man when both are trained fighters? There's an axiom in boxing that says "You can’t teach power. Either a fighter is born with it or not." Hundreds and hundreds of fighters have proven it to be true. One heavyweight is a formidable knockout artist while another rarely hurts an opponent and must win by points, even though they might be identical in height, weight, and the size of their muscles.

Part of it lies in how a fighter sets himself when he delivers his blow. A pure boxer stylist will be on his toes, mobile, with little contact with the floor when he hits. The force of his impact comes from his arms and shoulders only. But a slugger, a Jim Jefferies, Joe Louis, Dempsey, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, or Marciano, will plant his feet flat as he punches, using the floor for leverage to get more of his body weight behind the punch.

Another part is "commitment to the punch". The fighter who is worried about a counter blow is going to hold something back. He wants to be able to block the counter punch if it comes. But, the fighter who has no fear of retaliation, who accepts that he might get hit in return and couldn’t care less, will put everything into the punch. Marciano knew before he stepped into the ring that he would get hit a lot during the course of the fight. He accepted it beforehand and didn’t let it interfere with his intention to bang away at his opponent. When Rocky let go he was totally committed to the punch, putting every ounce of energy and body weight into every punch.

Marciano’s incredible power began in his feet as they pushed off the mat. The energy was fed by his thick, muscular legs, the swivel of his hips, and the twist he’d put into his upper body as he snapped forward his arm and fist.

Where the power came from might be best illustrated in a letter I received from a doctor who works with internal medical problems and trauma. He told me this: "Now what determines the power of a punch? I mean the formula… The effect of a punch is calculated by the energy applied at the sight of the hit. So the kinetic energy of Marciano's punch, that is the degree of damage the punch would generate, is equal to 1/2 mass x velocity x velocity (1/2mv2). Rocky's was equal to the mass of the arm plus the weight he shoved forward with body weight. Next, he hit in close. As your arm moves forward the time from beginning to end increases as you increase the distance of the thrown punch. Since velocity = feet per sec, that means the longer the range the less velocity. Now the energy generated is, remember, mass times vel x vel. Well if your punches are so much shorter, traveling only a few inches, your velocity is incredible! And the transmitted energy at impact is enormous! That calculation of energy is the destructive force (damage) to the body. Basically he broke his opponents up inside. Had George Foreman been a swarmer, he would have been a better fighter. He was a slugger. But as strong as he was he hit from too far away. Frazier was not as powerful as Marciano. He had a similar style, but didn't hit as hard (didn't use shifting weight, etc)."

This generation of power to the point of impact was described by boxing writer Nat Tashman in the July 1986 issue of Boxing Beat:
"Considering the weight advantage Rocky gave away to opponents, few seem to know the key to his power. Fully believing in his ability to take a punch and confident he couldn’t be knocked out, he’d wade in to position himself as close as he could get. Then, like lifting a weight, he’d plant his muscular, stumpy legs and thighs, and swivel-hip his punch. At that point, he was delivering his full 187 pound, adrenaline-loaded wallop for the lights-out contact."

[Bummy Davis]

What boxers and sports writers said of Marciano's punching power:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

His Opponents:
Joe Louis, knocked out by Rocky in the 8th round, said of Marciano, "It hurt to bump into him....He hits harder than Max Schmeling...this kid is tough enough to beat anyone."
He also said, "The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bone crushers."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jersey Joe Walcott, who lost his title to Marciano in a 13th round KO and a rematch in a 1st round KO, was asked who hit harder, Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano. "Joe could take you out with combinations...Marciano was a one-punch artist. He threw every punch like you throw a baseball, as hard as he could. I have to say, with all respect to Joe, Marciano hit harder."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ezzard Charles "Rocky numbs you all over. Wherever he hits you, he hurts you; on the arms, the shoulders, the neck and the head."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archie Moore (KO'd in 9th), when asked by reporters which of Marciano's punches hurt him, said, "Man they all hurt."
He also said, "After a fight with Marciano, it felt like you had been beat all over the upper body with a blackjack or hit with rocks."
"He could hurt you, sure, but it was the quantity of his punches. He just had more stamina than anyone else in those days. He was like a bull with gloves."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roland LaStarza "I would throw a hard punch, then he would throw a hard punch. The difference was that Rocky would throw 10 more. He just never stopped throwing punches."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harry "Kid" Matthews "He was a great puncher, one of the best of all-time. He just threw one punch after another, and all of them were hard."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dan, I can still feel his punches. He kept punching me in the upper arms until I could no longer hold them up to defend or throw punches". Phil Muscato, 5th round KO victim of Rocky, to his nephew Dan, many years after his fight with Marciano.(Thanks to Dan Muscato).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bernie Reynolds (1952 opponent) "He had amazing strength. Any time Marciano hit you, he could hurt you. He didn't do much flicking; every punch was a knockout punch."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Fighters and Boxing Experts:
Floyd Patterson, who knocked out Moore for Rocky's vacated title said, "In the ring he looked sloppy and awkward sometimes, but that was deceptive because he was terribly strong, could punch and take a punch...Jersey Joe Walcott had made him miss for twelve rounds and then Rocky took his title away in the thirteenth. Ezzard Charles seemed to be making him look bad, but Rocky busted up his face something horrible...I respected Marciano"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Dempsey, interviewed in the 1953 fall edition of Fight magazine said, "What everyone forgets is that Marciano can punch harder with a right hand than any modern-day heavyweight. In his first fight with Walcott, Rocky needed only one blow to win the title. The power in his right scrambled Jersey Joe's brains at Chicago."
"I've scored my share of knockouts along the way, but more often than not my opponents got up after being knocked down and had to be knocked down repeatedly. The same is true of Joe Louis. But Marciano needs only one solid smash and it's all over.
That's why I say Rocky Marciano is the hardest-hitting heavyweight champion I have seen."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carmine Basilio "Today he’d look like a midget against some of those heavyweights around, but he’d clobber them all. A great fighter, very tough."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hurley, Harry "Kid" Matthew's manager, "I never saw a fighter so confident, so sure every punch he was throwing was the knockout."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tommy Loughran (Light heavyweight champion 1927-29) "He is great by accident, or maybe instinct. He moves in and belts you, and wallops you, and moves away, and all by instinct. Then Rocky comes up with that hook, and his whole body is behind it. You have to class him with Jack Dempsey. When the fight started, Dempsey had only one thought-to knock you out. That's Marciano's instinct."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Marciano's gloved fists broke blood vessels and bones in LaStarza's arms and elbows. First the arms grew heavy, then they began to ache awfully, then they grew numb. As the relentless battle wore on, LaStarza found it harder and harder to raise his arms, much less jab with them or punch with them. His hands lowered, his defense dissipated, Marciano began to punish him about the head. LaStarza began to take a terrible beating." Bill Libby, "The Story of a Champion", 1971.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred Brown said, "He hits you with something that looks like a little tap to the crowd, but the guy who gets it shakes right down to his legs."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A right hand that registered nine on the Richter scale." Red Smith, New York Times sports columnist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He's the hardest hitting fighter I've ever seen. After one of his knockouts, I never take my eye off his victims till they move again." Bill Corum, sports writer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Rocky Marciano was probably the most ferocious man ever to win the title, and the most relentless." Ebony magazine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Why? His man's not that tall." Bugs Baer's reply when Don Cockell's manager requested a 20 foot ring instead of 16 foot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Louis is faster with a barrage of punches, but Rocky hurts more with one punch than Joe did with four. Rocky hurts you every time he connects." Response to a reporter from a sparring partner of both Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He was chastised by the press every time he fought as being a Neanderthal, no concept of boxing, who was going to get beat as soon as he got in with someone who could box, who was gonna make him look silly…It took a long time for the boxing scribes to realize they were in the presence of sheer power." Ferdie Pacheco
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marciano's KO percentage is 88%, the highest of ANY heavyweight champion in the history of boxing!
George Foreman 87%
Joe Frazier 84%
James Jefferies 83%
Jack Dempsey 79%
Joe Louis 78%
Sonny Liston 78%
Max Baer 74%
Archie Moore 73% (I know Archie wasn't a heavyweight, but he did knock out more men than any other fighter in any weight class)

[joekirkbycobra]

what about vitali klitschko he only went the distance 1nce and ko'd 34 of his 37 opponents (losing 2 by ko)

[mcvey]

What boxers and sports writers said of Marciano's punching power:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

His Opponents:
Joe Louis, knocked out by Rocky in the 8th round, said of Marciano, "It hurt to bump into him....He hits harder than Max Schmeling...this kid is tough enough to beat anyone."
He also said, "The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bone crushers."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jersey Joe Walcott, who lost his title to Marciano in a 13th round KO and a rematch in a 1st round KO, was asked who hit harder, Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano. "Joe could take you out with combinations...Marciano was a one-punch artist. He threw every punch like you throw a baseball, as hard as he could. I have to say, with all respect to Joe, Marciano hit harder."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ezzard Charles "Rocky numbs you all over. Wherever he hits you, he hurts you; on the arms, the shoulders, the neck and the head."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archie Moore (KO'd in 9th), when asked by reporters which of Marciano's punches hurt him, said, "Man they all hurt."
He also said, "After a fight with Marciano, it felt like you had been beat all over the upper body with a blackjack or hit with rocks."
"He could hurt you, sure, but it was the quantity of his punches. He just had more stamina than anyone else in those days. He was like a bull with gloves."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roland LaStarza "I would throw a hard punch, then he would throw a hard punch. The difference was that Rocky would throw 10 more. He just never stopped throwing punches."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harry "Kid" Matthews "He was a great puncher, one of the best of all-time. He just threw one punch after another, and all of them were hard."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dan, I can still feel his punches. He kept punching me in the upper arms until I could no longer hold them up to defend or throw punches". Phil Muscato, 5th round KO victim of Rocky, to his nephew Dan, many years after his fight with Marciano.(Thanks to Dan Muscato).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bernie Reynolds (1952 opponent) "He had amazing strength. Any time Marciano hit you, he could hurt you. He didn't do much flicking; every punch was a knockout punch."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Fighters and Boxing Experts:
Floyd Patterson, who knocked out Moore for Rocky's vacated title said, "In the ring he looked sloppy and awkward sometimes, but that was deceptive because he was terribly strong, could punch and take a punch...Jersey Joe Walcott had made him miss for twelve rounds and then Rocky took his title away in the thirteenth. Ezzard Charles seemed to be making him look bad, but Rocky busted up his face something horrible...I respected Marciano"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Dempsey, interviewed in the 1953 fall edition of Fight magazine said, "What everyone forgets is that Marciano can punch harder with a right hand than any modern-day heavyweight. In his first fight with Walcott, Rocky needed only one blow to win the title. The power in his right scrambled Jersey Joe's brains at Chicago."
"I've scored my share of knockouts along the way, but more often than not my opponents got up after being knocked down and had to be knocked down repeatedly. The same is true of Joe Louis. But Marciano needs only one solid smash and it's all over.
That's why I say Rocky Marciano is the hardest-hitting heavyweight champion I have seen."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carmine Basilio "Today he’d look like a midget against some of those heavyweights around, but he’d clobber them all. A great fighter, very tough."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hurley, Harry "Kid" Matthew's manager, "I never saw a fighter so confident, so sure every punch he was throwing was the knockout."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tommy Loughran (Light heavyweight champion 1927-29) "He is great by accident, or maybe instinct. He moves in and belts you, and wallops you, and moves away, and all by instinct. Then Rocky comes up with that hook, and his whole body is behind it. You have to class him with Jack Dempsey. When the fight started, Dempsey had only one thought-to knock you out. That's Marciano's instinct."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Marciano's gloved fists broke blood vessels and bones in LaStarza's arms and elbows. First the arms grew heavy, then they began to ache awfully, then they grew numb. As the relentless battle wore on, LaStarza found it harder and harder to raise his arms, much less jab with them or punch with them. His hands lowered, his defense dissipated, Marciano began to punish him about the head. LaStarza began to take a terrible beating." Bill Libby, "The Story of a Champion", 1971.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred Brown said, "He hits you with something that looks like a little tap to the crowd, but the guy who gets it shakes right down to his legs."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A right hand that registered nine on the Richter scale." Red Smith, New York Times sports columnist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He's the hardest hitting fighter I've ever seen. After one of his knockouts, I never take my eye off his victims till they move again." Bill Corum, sports writer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Rocky Marciano was probably the most ferocious man ever to win the title, and the most relentless." Ebony magazine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Why? His man's not that tall." Bugs Baer's reply when Don Cockell's manager requested a 20 foot ring instead of 16 foot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Louis is faster with a barrage of punches, but Rocky hurts more with one punch than Joe did with four. Rocky hurts you every time he connects." Response to a reporter from a sparring partner of both Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He was chastised by the press every time he fought as being a Neanderthal, no concept of boxing, who was going to get beat as soon as he got in with someone who could box, who was gonna make him look silly…It took a long time for the boxing scribes to realize they were in the presence of sheer power." Ferdie Pacheco
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marciano's KO percentage is 88%, the highest of ANY heavyweight champion in the history of boxing!
George Foreman 87%
Joe Frazier 84%
James Jefferies 83%
Jack Dempsey 79%
Joe Louis 78%
Sonny Liston 78%
Max Baer 74%
Archie Moore 73% (I know Archie wasn't a heavyweight, but he did knock out more men than any other fighter in any weight class)
Wonderful quotes I watched the u tube video "how it was " recalling Walcotts fights with Louis,as you say Marciano ,according to Walcott ,had superior one punch power,and he carried it all through a fight,most of his victims were diminished after fighting him.

[Russell]

Honestly, the numbers game is flawed.

Marciano had a 88% knockout percentage in 49 fights. 49.

Foreman was one percent lower than that in 81.

Pure statistics don't quite tell the tale without digging a little deeper.

[Russell]

As for Moore's percentage being so low, consider how often he was outweighed and the fact that he had 220 fights... Almost five times more than Marciano.

[Sardu]

Al Weill did not try to tamper with that right cross. Marciano was born with that. Watch the Jon Favreau movie as Rocky when he drops a big guy with one right when he was working briefly in a steel mill or something along those lines. A guy comes up to congratulate Marciano saying: "That c*cksuck you just knocked out cold once went 15 rounds with James J Braddock!" Now you cannot teach power or delivery like that. Of course, other parts of Marciano's style were refined but not his punch! That was kept the same.

[joe33]

Always annoys me when people call him crude and not a good fighter,id love to see what he would do to heavyweights from other eras,even when he and ali sparred for that computer fight thing,and he was a lot older,ali admitted he hit harder then even he thought he would,now he may have just said that to be nice,but he said it anyway.Im not also saying in his prime he would have beat ali,so dont jump on me for that,but im more then confident he would have giving every past and modern great such a fight they would not forget him in a hurry

Dont think ive seen a heavy ever throw so many punches in a fight,he just keeps coming foward and punching,his stamina was incredable,most of his fights to me,look like he just wears the other man down,till his defence had gone and then he Koed them,the end of the majority of his fights look cruel,like hes a predetor and the other mans injured,desperate and near death,astonishing man in my opinion what ever you think of him

[Marciano Frazier]

Honestly, the numbers game is flawed.

Marciano had a 88% knockout percentage in 49 fights. 49.

Foreman was one percent lower than that in 81.

Pure statistics don't quite tell the tale without digging a little deeper.
Actually, the numbers are slightly wrong there. Foreman had approximately an 84% knockout average.

[Marciano Frazier]

As for Moore's percentage being so low, consider how often he was outweighed and the fact that he had 220 fights... Almost five times more than Marciano.
Actually, Moore's knockout percentage was much higher in fights in which he was the smaller man than in fights where he wasn't. And why, precisely, do you seem to think that a greater number or lesser number of fights is the prime determinant of knockout percentage? There is a correlation there, in that fighters with greater numbers of total fights are more likely to have had a high percentage of their fights against name opponents than are ones with smaller numbers, which should vary inversely with knockout percentage; however, this is not universal and should not be tossed out by itself. For example, Lamar Clark going 45-0 with 44 knockouts is ultimately much less impressive than, say, Foreman going 40-0 with 37 knockouts, even though Foreman's streak was a smaller number of fights with a slightly lower knockout percentage, since Foreman actually fought a number of decent opponents and a few actual contenders in his run, while Clark never beat anyone who was even a serious name fighter on a regional level.

[OLD FOGEY]

Honestly, the numbers game is flawed.

Marciano had a 88% knockout percentage in 49 fights. 49.

Foreman was one percent lower than that in 81.

Pure statistics don't quite tell the tale without digging a little deeper.

Marciano has the highest knockout percentage against Hall-of-Famers, against champions, against fighters rated when he fought them, and against ever rated fighters.

He stands up well to digging a little deeper, as you say.

He did this giving up an average of 9 pounds per fight against rated opponents.

[Mendoza]

I don't think Rocky hit has hard as Dempsey, Tyson, Liston, or Foreman. I put him on the next level of punchers which is still way up there. Rocky was a very good two fisted puncher who carried his power with him into the later rounds.

[ChrisPontius]

What boxers and sports writers said of Marciano's punching power:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

His Opponents:
Joe Louis, knocked out by Rocky in the 8th round, said of Marciano, "It hurt to bump into him....He hits harder than Max Schmeling...this kid is tough enough to beat anyone."
He also said, "The Rock didn't know too much about the boxing book, but it wasn't a book he hit me with. It was a whole library of bone crushers."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jersey Joe Walcott, who lost his title to Marciano in a 13th round KO and a rematch in a 1st round KO, was asked who hit harder, Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano. "Joe could take you out with combinations...Marciano was a one-punch artist. He threw every punch like you throw a baseball, as hard as he could. I have to say, with all respect to Joe, Marciano hit harder."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ezzard Charles "Rocky numbs you all over. Wherever he hits you, he hurts you; on the arms, the shoulders, the neck and the head."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Archie Moore (KO'd in 9th), when asked by reporters which of Marciano's punches hurt him, said, "Man they all hurt."
He also said, "After a fight with Marciano, it felt like you had been beat all over the upper body with a blackjack or hit with rocks."
"He could hurt you, sure, but it was the quantity of his punches. He just had more stamina than anyone else in those days. He was like a bull with gloves."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Roland LaStarza "I would throw a hard punch, then he would throw a hard punch. The difference was that Rocky would throw 10 more. He just never stopped throwing punches."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harry "Kid" Matthews "He was a great puncher, one of the best of all-time. He just threw one punch after another, and all of them were hard."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Dan, I can still feel his punches. He kept punching me in the upper arms until I could no longer hold them up to defend or throw punches". Phil Muscato, 5th round KO victim of Rocky, to his nephew Dan, many years after his fight with Marciano.(Thanks to Dan Muscato).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bernie Reynolds (1952 opponent) "He had amazing strength. Any time Marciano hit you, he could hurt you. He didn't do much flicking; every punch was a knockout punch."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Fighters and Boxing Experts:
Floyd Patterson, who knocked out Moore for Rocky's vacated title said, "In the ring he looked sloppy and awkward sometimes, but that was deceptive because he was terribly strong, could punch and take a punch...Jersey Joe Walcott had made him miss for twelve rounds and then Rocky took his title away in the thirteenth. Ezzard Charles seemed to be making him look bad, but Rocky busted up his face something horrible...I respected Marciano"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Dempsey, interviewed in the 1953 fall edition of Fight magazine said, "What everyone forgets is that Marciano can punch harder with a right hand than any modern-day heavyweight. In his first fight with Walcott, Rocky needed only one blow to win the title. The power in his right scrambled Jersey Joe's brains at Chicago."
"I've scored my share of knockouts along the way, but more often than not my opponents got up after being knocked down and had to be knocked down repeatedly. The same is true of Joe Louis. But Marciano needs only one solid smash and it's all over.
That's why I say Rocky Marciano is the hardest-hitting heavyweight champion I have seen."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carmine Basilio "Today he’d look like a midget against some of those heavyweights around, but he’d clobber them all. A great fighter, very tough."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Hurley, Harry "Kid" Matthew's manager, "I never saw a fighter so confident, so sure every punch he was throwing was the knockout."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tommy Loughran (Light heavyweight champion 1927-29) "He is great by accident, or maybe instinct. He moves in and belts you, and wallops you, and moves away, and all by instinct. Then Rocky comes up with that hook, and his whole body is behind it. You have to class him with Jack Dempsey. When the fight started, Dempsey had only one thought-to knock you out. That's Marciano's instinct."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Marciano's gloved fists broke blood vessels and bones in LaStarza's arms and elbows. First the arms grew heavy, then they began to ache awfully, then they grew numb. As the relentless battle wore on, LaStarza found it harder and harder to raise his arms, much less jab with them or punch with them. His hands lowered, his defense dissipated, Marciano began to punish him about the head. LaStarza began to take a terrible beating." Bill Libby, "The Story of a Champion", 1971.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fred Brown said, "He hits you with something that looks like a little tap to the crowd, but the guy who gets it shakes right down to his legs."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"A right hand that registered nine on the Richter scale." Red Smith, New York Times sports columnist.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He's the hardest hitting fighter I've ever seen. After one of his knockouts, I never take my eye off his victims till they move again." Bill Corum, sports writer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Rocky Marciano was probably the most ferocious man ever to win the title, and the most relentless." Ebony magazine.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Why? His man's not that tall." Bugs Baer's reply when Don Cockell's manager requested a 20 foot ring instead of 16 foot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Louis is faster with a barrage of punches, but Rocky hurts more with one punch than Joe did with four. Rocky hurts you every time he connects." Response to a reporter from a sparring partner of both Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"He was chastised by the press every time he fought as being a Neanderthal, no concept of boxing, who was going to get beat as soon as he got in with someone who could box, who was gonna make him look silly…It took a long time for the boxing scribes to realize they were in the presence of sheer power." Ferdie Pacheco
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marciano's KO percentage is 88%, the highest of ANY heavyweight champion in the history of boxing!
George Foreman 87%
Joe Frazier 84%
James Jefferies 83%
Jack Dempsey 79%
Joe Louis 78%
Sonny Liston 78%
Max Baer 74%
Archie Moore 73% (I know Archie wasn't a heavyweight, but he did knock out more men than any other fighter in any weight class)

:good

Marciano is one of the boxers who retained their almost perfect KO record when stepping up in competition.

[Russell]

Marciano has the highest knockout percentage against Hall-of-Famers, against champions, against fighters rated when he fought them, and against ever rated fighters.

He stands up well to digging a little deeper, as you say.

He did this giving up an average of 9 pounds per fight against rated opponents.

And sans Moore there's no debating that the other three HOF's he beat were years and years past their best, among other things.

Ezzard still nearly stopped him on a cut, and went the full 15 rounds with him.

Jersey Joe still put him on the deck and looked amazing against him, and got screwed in a rematch.

Moore decked him as well.

Really, great HW, an amazing one even. But not the messiah of the heavyweight division that some paint him to be.

Knowing when to retire and not coming back does wonders for ones legacy.

[janitor]

And sans Moore there's no debating that the other three HOF's he beat were years and years past their best, among other things.

Ezzard still nearly stopped him on a cut, and went the full 15 rounds with him.

Jersey Joe still put him on the deck and looked amazing against him, and got screwed in a rematch.

Moore decked him as well.


The crucial diference is that everybody else has an enbarasing loss to sombody like that rather than an enbarasing, getting droped, taken the distance or close call.

Virtualy every all time great lost to sombody who would not be so highly rated without having beaten them. If you have to criticise sombody on problems he had en route to wining then you dont have an awfull lot to criticise.

[Russell]

And almost everybody else fought so much more and so much more often than Marciano that it's criminal to overlook.

Marciano's entire career consisted of an eight year body of work.

We saw Rocky at his best... and... that's it. There's nothing beyond his peak. He got out of the game and kept out. When he did attempt a comeback he fought behind closed doors and was more or less embarassed. I'd love to of seen him of fully come back, how that'd drastically affect the discussion we're having right now.

[janitor]

[quote=Russell]And almost everybody else fought so much more and so much more often than Marciano that it's criminal to overlook.

Marciano's entire career consisted of an eight year body of work.


His title reign and number of fights against ranked contenders compares prety favourably to most other all time greats. His overall body of work certainly isnt lacking relative to them

We saw Rocky at his best... and... that's it. There's nothing beyond his peak. He got out of the game and kept out. When he did attempt a comeback he fought behind closed doors and was more or less embarassed. I'd love to of seen him of fully come back, how that'd drastically affect the discussion we're having right now.

You dont have to make a comeback way past your peak to pick up a loss to sombody you shouldnt.

If Muhamad Ali had beaten Ken Norton he would be not be talked about as an all time great. Joe Frazier might not be either.

If Joe Louis had beaten Max Schmeling in 1936 we would say he was a faded former champion just like the guys Marciano beat.

If George Foreman had beaten Jimmy Young we might see him as a second rater.

If Mike Tyson had beaten James Douglas he would be nobody.

Rocky Marciano beat his Nortons, Schmelings, Youngs and Douglases. Every all time great has problems with fighters like Walcott, Charles and Moore at or close to their peak and frankly they usualy pick up a loss at some point.

[Bummy Davis]

[quote]


His title reign and number of fights against ranked contenders compares prety favourably to most other all time greats. His overall body of work certainly isnt lacking relative to them



You dont have to make a comeback way past your peak to pick up a loss to sombody you shouldnt.

If Muhamad Ali had beaten Ken Norton he would be not be talked about as an all time great. Joe Frazier might not be either.

If Joe Louis had beaten Max Schmeling in 1936 we would say he was a faded former champion just like the guys Marciano beat.

If George Foreman had beaten Jimmy Young we might see him as a second rater.

If Mike Tyson had beaten James Douglas he would be nobody.

Rocky Marciano beat his Nortons, Schmelings, Youngs and Douglases. Every all time great has problems with fighters like Walcott, Charles and Moore at or close to their peak and frankly they usualy pick up a loss at some point.


good point :good :good :good

[Bummy Davis]

I don't think Rocky hit has hard as Dempsey, Tyson, Liston, or Foreman. I put him on the next level of punchers which is still way up there. Rocky was a very good two fisted puncher who carried his power with him into the later rounds.


Jack Dempsey, interviewed in the 1953 fall edition of Fight magazine said, "What everyone forgets is that Marciano can punch harder with a right hand than any modern-day heavyweight. In his first fight with Walcott, Rocky needed only one blow to win the title. The power in his right scrambled Jersey Joe's brains at Chicago."
"I've scored my share of knockouts along the way, but more often than not my opponents got up after being knocked down and had to be knocked down repeatedly. The same is true of Joe Louis. But Marciano needs only one solid smash and it's all over.
That's why I say Rocky Marciano is the hardest-hitting heavyweight champion I have seen."

[OLD FOGEY]

And sans Moore there's no debating that the other three HOF's he beat were years and years past their best, among other things.

Ezzard still nearly stopped him on a cut, and went the full 15 rounds with him.

Jersey Joe still put him on the deck and looked amazing against him, and got screwed in a rematch.

Moore decked him as well.

Really, great HW, an amazing one even. But not the messiah of the heavyweight division that some paint him to be.

Knowing when to retire and not coming back does wonders for ones legacy.

"Really, great HW, an amazing one even. But not the messiah of the heavyweight division that some paint him to be."

I never used a term such as messiah. I understood you as implying that Marciano's punching power did not stand up to scrutiny and I offered a small rebuttal, factual I believe.
I think this is all factual:

1. Marciano is the only heavyweight champion of his century to have a perfect record.

2. Marciano knocked out the longest reigning heavyweight and light-heavyweight champions of his century.

3. Marciano has the best knockout percentage (calculated in total fights) of any heavyweight champion of his century.

4. Marciano has the highest knockout percentages against Hall-of-Famers, champions, fighters rated when he fought them, and ever rated fighters.

Now you have counter-arguments, some fair, and some somewhat unfair, such as Walcott being years past his best--who knows? He was coming off his biggest career wins. Marciano had a short career. Okay. But longevity is only one measure of greatness. In American gridiron football, Jim Brown did not have a particularly long career. Nor did Joe DiMaggio in baseball. No one doubts their greatness. Marciano retired early--he won fights against top opposition at 32. Sullivan, Jeffries, Dempsey, Tunney, and Frazier did not do better or sometimes even as well.

Bottom line--If his opponents were not oldish, and if he had a longer career, it would probably be very hard not to judge him the best fighter of his century. As it is, he was certainly exceptional.

[Russell]

And Dempsey's shots, "repeated" or not damaged the 250lb Willard just as badly as any fighter ever in a few short minutes. The injuries Willard had after Dempsey was through with him there is the stuff of legend.

It's not like Marciano's never been in a war of attrition where he's needed an ungodly amount of shots to put someone away.

His beating of Cockell had more "dirty power" shots than a Foreman fight. He just kept hitting him and hitting him and hitting him.

[Russell]

Now you have counter-arguments, some fair, and some somewhat unfair, such as Walcott being years past his best--who knows? He was coming off his biggest career wins. Marciano had a short career. Okay. But longevity is only one measure of greatness. In American gridiron football, Jim Brown did not have a particularly long career. Nor did Joe DiMaggio in baseball. No one doubts their greatness. Marciano retired early--he won fights against top opposition at 32. Sullivan, Jeffries, Dempsey, Tunney, and Frazier did not do better or even as well.

Bottom line--If his opponents were not oldish, and if he had a longer career, it would probably be very hard not to judge him the best fighter of his century. As it is, he was certainly exceptional.

He was definitely exceptional, in a myriad of ways.

Walcott WAS years past his best. Physically he was an old, old man. What he did have going for him was years of accumlated knowledge which he applied brilliantly. That doens't change the aspect of the issue that I'm debating.

As for Tunney?

Tunney's career wasn't exceptionally long either. He boxed for 13 years. But in those 13 years he fought 86 times, and lost only once. He avenged that loss more than once.

I honestly don't see the worshipping of the all mighty 49. Tunney went 81-1 his career and his fights with Greb alone contain more talent than anything Marciano ever ran into, considering said fighters aged.

[Russell]

I honestly can't even understand the Tunney/Marciano comparison.

Marciano got to Ezzard Charles at the end of his career and eeked out a win one time, and stopped him the other.

Gene fought Dempsey twice at the end of both of their careers and beat him twice.

Is there really any doubt as to who's greater at heavyweight, Dempsey or Ezzard?

[OLD FOGEY]

He was definitely exceptional, in a myriad of ways.

Walcott WAS years past his best. Physically he was an old, old man. What he did have going for him was years of accumlated knowledge which he applied brilliantly. That doens't change the aspect of the issue that I'm debating.

As for Tunney?

Tunney's career wasn't exceptionally long either. He boxed for 13 years. But in those 13 years he fought 86 times, and lost only once. He avenged that loss more than once.

I honestly don't see the worshipping of the all mighty 49. Tunney went 81-1 his career and his fights with Greb alone contain more talent than anything Marciano ever ran into, considering said fighters aged.

Well, you have to fight the man who is champion. Marciano doesn't have much choice and Walcott was coming off his biggest wins. Compare to Bernard Hopkins today.

As for Tunney, I consider him the best fighter I have seen on film from the twenties, but I don't really see that having 86 total fights proves he is better than a man who had 49. Does having 49 fights make Marciano unquestionably better than Sugar Ray Leonard or Jim Jeffries or Lennox Lewis? I think the number of tough fights matters more. Tunney was great but most of his career was at middleweight and light heavy and most of his key opponents were not only old, a criticism also applying to Marciano, but also often smaller, and he seems to have struggled a bit more than Marciano. His series with Greb was very close, with Tunney perhaps having a slight edge, but with who was really the better man being hidden behind the no decision rule. Tunney's fight with Loughran was close enough to be unclear. The winner depends on which paper one reads.
Bottom line--Tunney's only top wins at heavyweight were over the rusty Dempsey, and a better Dempsey in a rematch, a win somewhat clouded by the long count. Gibbons was a lightheavy. Risko, Heeney, and Weinert ordinary heavies. Greb a large middle. Loughran a green middle. None but Dempsey was a top puncher. Marciano certainly fought tougher heavyweight competition.

[joe33]

And almost everybody else fought so much more and so much more often than Marciano that it's criminal to overlook.

Marciano's entire career consisted of an eight year body of work.

We saw Rocky at his best... and... that's it. There's nothing beyond his peak. He got out of the game and kept out. When he did attempt a comeback he fought behind closed doors and was more or less embarassed. I'd love to of seen him of fully come back, how that'd drastically affect the discussion we're having right now.

Well he was clever then,why come back if your not up to it,he finished on a high and its so sad he died young,he should have had a long and rich life

[Russell]

They talk about weight and size, as if that meant anything.

It's got plenty to do with a myriad of things.

Hence why the very foundation of boxing is based on a variety of different weight classes, and why the champion after Marciano in Patterson was absolutely destroyed in a matter of minutes by a bigger, stronger man.

[Seamus]

In head to head terms, I tend to judge Marciano as a 190 lb'er rather than as a heavyweight. In terms of legacy, I judge him as a heavy.

Regardless, I would not pick any fighter over him with a 190lb limit. I would put the mortgage on it. Pound for Pound, a devastatingly hard hitter with great stamina, a very good chin, under-rated defense and believed he would win each and every time out.

And just to put my opinion in perspective, I used to think Marciano was vastly over-rated until I really studied film of him and the film and records of his opponents. This is never an easy game to decipher. There are things Marciano did so effectively they can not be taught in a primer or a gym. And these things- in the end- always covered his deficiencies.

[Russell]

In head to head terms, I tend to judge Marciano as a 190 lb'er rather than as a heavyweight. In terms of legacy, I judge him as a heavy.

Regardless, I would not pick any fighter over him with a 190lb limit. I would put the mortgage on it. Pound for Pound, a devastatingly hard hitter with great stamina, a very good chin, under-rated defense and believed he would win each and every time out.

And just to put my opinion in perspective, I used to think Marciano was vastly over-rated until I really studied film of him and the film and records of his opponents. This is never an easy game to decipher. There are things Marciano did so effectively they can not be taught in a primer or a gym. And these things- in the end- always covered his deficiencies.

I agree with this completely.

I don't agree with the acessments of most regarding him vs. a 250lb prime Lennox Lewis.

[Sister Sledge]

Marciano is a great little guy with exceptional power for his size. It would have benefitted him if he had fought better fighters when he was champ, but he was champ in a week era. By the time, Patterson or johansson were legit threats, he was already retired. The fact that he had so much trouble with good boxers, even though they were past their primes, leads to serious questions about his legacy as an ATG. He is an ATG, but he would have a serious problem with the upper echelon fighters.

[janitor]

The fact that he had so much trouble with good boxers, even though they were past their primes, leads to serious questions about his legacy as an ATG.

Dosnt everybody have trouble with good boxers?

[fists of fury]

He had trouble with a few boxers, but it's not like every smoothie he came up against gave him life or death.

'Tiger' Ted Lowry gave him fits admittedly, but there is always going to be one guy out there who is your nemesis.

Lastarza did in their first fight, but Roland was seen as the hottest prospect in the country. Marciano was comparatively green at that stage of his career.

Walcott in the first fight did, but it must also be remembered that for three rounds Marciano was almost blind, just when momentum began to swing in his favour.

Charles gave him trouble in their first fight, but after round 10 the fight was all Rocky's.

That's about it really.

[Sister Sledge]

Dosnt everybody have trouble with good boxers?

Sure, but he would have serious troubles with guys like Ali, Holmes, and the like.

[Luigi1985]

Sure, but he would have serious troubles with guys like Ali, Holmes, and the like.


But that works also the other way, if Ali had so much problems with Frazier (Marciano was at least as great as he) or Holmes even more with mediocre guys like Witherspoon or so.

[Sister Sledge]

But that works also the other way, if Ali had so much problems with Frazier (Marciano was at least as great as he) or Holmes even more with mediocre guys like Witherspoon or so.

Spoon was 6"3" and would give anybody hell when motivated. Holmes never had a problem with small fighters in his prime. Rocky would be too small and his arms would be too short for Holmes. He would be destroyed trying to get inside.

Against Ali, it would be competitive, but I just thing Marciano could be him either. He's just too small.

[Vantage_West]

Honestly, the numbers game is flawed.

Marciano had a 88% knockout percentage in 49 fights. 49.

Foreman was one percent lower than that in 81.

Pure statistics don't quite tell the tale without digging a little deeper."lies,white lies and statistics"

[Russell]

"I can't possibly contribute anything to this discussion myself, lets dredge up a dull quote"

[Bummy Davis]

Spoon was 6"3" and would give anybody hell when motivated. Holmes never had a problem with small fighters in his prime. Rocky would be too small and his arms would be too short for Holmes. He would be destroyed trying to get inside.

Against Ali, it would be competitive, but I just thing Marciano could be him either. He's just too small.

NICK WELLS WHO KO'D HOLMES 2 TIMES IN THE AMATUERS WAS 5'10, LARRY NEVER FOUGHT A QUALITY SMALL GUY LIKE MARCIANO BUT DONT SAY MARCIANO WAS TOO SMALL, TYSON MAY HAVE BEEN THE SAME HEIGHT OR SHORTER THAN MARCIANO AND EVEN THOUGH HOLMES WAS OLDER HE GOT DESTROYED BY TYSON, ALI GOT DROPPED BY 5'11 ONE ARMED FRAZIER AND 185LB HENRY COOPER SO THE SAME GOES FOR HIM AND THAT SMALLER MAN ARGUEMENT

[Luigi1985]

Spoon was 6"3" and would give anybody hell when motivated. Holmes never had a problem with small fighters in his prime. Rocky would be too small and his arms would be too short for Holmes. He would be destroyed trying to get inside.

Against Ali, it would be competitive, but I just thing Marciano could be him either. He's just too small.




I meant with the example Witherspoon (who was IMO talent-wise a very talented fighter, but speaking from his resume he was just mediocre in contrast to a Marciano) that Holmes struggled with a lot of guys, who weren´t nowhere near the class Marciano had. The only fighter he faced who was similar to Rocky was Tyson, and he was KTFO, he wasn´t in his prime or in top shape, but in this fight we could all see that he didn´t like these kind of fighters... And btw, why do you always saying "He´s just too small?", when a Frazier, who was 5´11, could beat a prime Ali, why couldn´t do it another 5´11-man (don´t look at sources like boxrec, Marciano was reported as exactly 5´10 and three quarters at his times)?

[Luigi1985]

NICK WELLS WHO KO'D HOLMES 2 TIMES IN THE AMATUERS WAS 5'10, LARRY NEVER FOUGHT A QUALITY SMALL GUY LIKE MARCIANO BUT DONT SAY MARCIANO WAS TOO SMALL, TYSON MAY HAVE BEEN THE SAME HEIGHT OR SHORTER THAN MARCIANO AND EVEN THOUGH HOLMES WAS OLDER HE GOT DESTROYED BY TYSON, ALI GOT DROPPED BY 5'11 ONE ARMED FRAZIER AND 185LB HENRY COOPER SO THE SAME GOES FOR HIM AND THAT SMALLER MAN ARGUEMENT



:yep

[Russell]

And Tyson had, what, 25-30 pounds on Marciano?

Ali was known more for his chin AFTER his comeback, I fail to see how getting caught cold by Cooper proves much.

[joe33]

Marciano is a great little guy with exceptional power for his size. It would have benefitted him if he had fought better fighters when he was champ, but he was champ in a week era. By the time, Patterson or johansson were legit threats, he was already retired. The fact that he had so much trouble with good boxers, even though they were past their primes, leads to serious questions about his legacy as an ATG. He is an ATG, but he would have a serious problem with the upper echelon fighters.

Very true,but dont you think they would have also had a shit load of trouble from this fighting machine?

[joe33]

And Tyson had, what, 25-30 pounds on Marciano?

Ali was known more for his chin AFTER his comeback, I fail to see how getting caught cold by Cooper proves much.

And tyson got knocked the fuck out by buster douglas for gods sake,its so hard to say for me,id say he would be in with a great shout against every heavyweight out there

[Chaney]

And almost everybody else fought so much more and so much more often than Marciano that it's criminal to overlook.

Marciano's entire career consisted of an eight year body of work.

We saw Rocky at his best... and... that's it. There's nothing beyond his peak. He got out of the game and kept out. When he did attempt a comeback he fought behind closed doors and was more or less embarassed. I'd love to of seen him of fully come back, how that'd drastically affect the discussion we're having right now.I sincerely wish far more fighters would get out and stay out of pro boxing while the going was good.

There is nothing good about seeing a diminished fighter struggle and take punishment his younger self would avoid. Boxing should be a game for men in their physical prime.

A faded tennis great can enter tournaments and lose against competition that he would have destroyed in his prime. The difference is that the tennis player is not taking concussive blows to the brain in the process.

[janitor]

Holmes never had a problem with small fighters in his prime. Rocky would be too small and his arms would be too short for Holmes. He would be destroyed trying to get inside.


Marciano would get destroyed because he was too small?

There are many kinds of physical advantages. Holmses reach and size is one. You have to apreciate however that Marcianos greater power is an equaly dramatic physical advantage.

If this fight is toe to toe with neither guy able to take a step backwards Holmes would get destroyed early.

That is as much a physical disadvantage as Marciano's shorter reach.

[Holmes' Jab]

Marciano would get destroyed because he was too small?

There are many kinds of physical advantages. Holmses reach and size is one. You have to apreciate however that Marcianos greater power is an equaly dramatic physical advantage.

If this fight is toe to toe with neither guy able to take a step backwards Holmes would get destroyed early.

That is as much a physical disadvantage as Marciano's shorter reach.


- He wouldn't get destroyed, but outboxed to a decision or stopped late. Marciano is a huge 'live' threat to anybody he shares a ring with so a stoppage in his favour isn't totally out of the question (although given Larry's immense durability and recuperative powers unlikely).

- I fully understand your point and to an extent it's correct, however Holmes doesn't have to make it an inside fight and stand toe-to-toe. His strategy should be to box and move on his toes, pumping the jab into Marciano's face and peppering him with combinations, uppercuts and hooks when Marciano maurades fowards, attempt to tie him up and take a breather in the clinches. Keep repeating the task and don't get sloppy.

- Whilst I agree that Marciano's best chance of winning the fight is to lure Holmes into a slugfest, I don't think it totally correct to instigate that Marciano would take him out of there early if they're toe-to-toe. Larry's strong chin meant that he could mix it up on the inside if needsbe, also the uppercut and his superior size and strength would come into play here, he's not going to be manhandled by the smaller man. Holmes is at his most dangerous if hurt and facing adversity so that certainly won't guarantee Marciano a scarefree time whatever the matter, even if he gains some success at close range.

- Whilst I reckon that reach in general isn't as big a factor by and large as some think (it's about how successfully you can utilise your reach best, and whether you have the high level of ability and/or apt style to do so) the problem here for Marciano is that he isn't going to be outboxing Holmes from the outside, with his shorter reach he needs tomake it an inside fight as often as he can. Whilst he's thinking about this Larry is going to be beating him to the punch first, setting him up with shots and teeing off.

[sthomas]

Since an old Norton gave a young yet seasoned Holmes so much hell in their fight, to think Rock isn't going to get some serious licks in is not realistic. Holmes accomplished a great deal but how many ATG's did he beat, other than the greatly diminished Ali.

[Russell]

And tyson got knocked the fuck out by buster douglas for gods sake,its so hard to say for me,id say he would be in with a great shout against every heavyweight out there

Yeah, with his head movement almost completely gone, dealing with a rape trial and damned near out of it from depression medication changes he was beaten in an amazing performance by Douglas.

Oh, who he damn near had out of there regardless with an uppercut.

[radianttwilight]

I consider Marciano's power top class, in the Shavers/Foreman/Lewis category. There's really no reason for me to think otherwise, because he devastated nearly every guy he fought, was extremely impressive against ranked contenders (who are almost always more durable than your average record-padding journeymen) who, although only 3 were ATGs (Moore, Charles, Walcott), were good/great contenders.

What really seals the deal for me is that Marciano always found a way to win. There was never a case where he "couldn't punch hard enough" to stop his man when he really needed it. His power got him through Walcott I. He didn't "need" to KO Charles in their first match because the fight was even through 10 and a one-sided domination from 11-15.

Every time he needed his power, it came through for him, and not only against the cans/journeymen he fought. Every time he needed to knock a guy out (as in, behind on the cards late in the fight) he did it. I can't ask any more of the guy.

[Sister Sledge]

Very true,but dont you think they would have also had a shit load of trouble from this fighting machine?

I'm not taking anything away from Marciano, but Holmes and Ali, and Jack Johnson for that matter were a step above guys like Walcott, Moore and Charles. They were great 185lb fighters, but they were all beatable. Rocky took a lot of punishment just fighting these guys. Guys like Ali and Holmes were better boxers than the other guys I mentioned and really would have made Rocky pay for his mistakes. Marciano wasn't hard to find, and I just think he most likely would have been stopped on cuts. He would have taken a lot of punishment trying to get inside.

[Seamus]

Yeah, with his head movement almost completely gone, dealing with a rape trial and damned near out of it from depression medication

oh that's right. he's the only fucker out there with problems. no other fighter ever had those.

my heart pumps piss for him.

[Bummy Davis]

I'm not taking anything away from Marciano, but Holmes and Ali, and Jack Johnson for that matter were a step above guys like Walcott, Moore and Charles. They were great 185lb fighters, but they were all beatable. Rocky took a lot of punishment just fighting these guys. Guys like Ali and Holmes were better boxers than the other guys I mentioned and really would have made Rocky pay for his mistakes. Marciano wasn't hard to find, and I just think he most likely would have been stopped on cuts. He would have taken a lot of punishment trying to get inside.

Do you really think Johnson was a step above Walcott or Charles, I can not see Johnson beating either of them, as far as Ali and Holmes, I think Ali and Holmes would have tough nights with the 33 yr old version of Charles or the 38yr old Walcott, both men stayed real fit and both could hit, Walcott could also upset Ali and I can see him beating Holmes, could they also beat him, yes but is it a sure thing, NO

[Marciano Frazier]

And Tyson had, what, 25-30 pounds on Marciano?

Ali was known more for his chin AFTER his comeback, I fail to see how getting caught cold by Cooper proves much.
Do you think Ali's chin just sort of cropped up as he got older? Are you saying that a '60s Ali didn't have a great chin? Because when people discuss Ali vs. the all-time greats, they're talking about the '60s Ali and assuming he had the chin he's famous for in his prime- if he didn't, that could drastically affect the results we'd expect out of him.

[RoccoMarciano]

Honestly, the numbers game is flawed.

Marciano had a 88% knockout percentage in 49 fights. 49.

Foreman was one percent lower than that in 81.

Pure statistics don't quite tell the tale without digging a little deeper.

So what is your mathematical explanation, oh brilliant one?

If you have none, shut the fuck up until a person really looking for it comes out with an answer!

[Marciano Frazier]

And almost everybody else fought so much more and so much more often than Marciano that it's criminal to overlook.
Umm... 12 other linear heavyweight champions have had fewer recorded professional fights than Marciano. It's possible that one or two of the early ones actually had more than he did which haven't survived, but the principal remains obvious- saying that "almost everybody" had more fights than Marciano is ridiculous. And I don't know where you're coming from with "more often"- Marciano had one pro fight in the midst of his amateur career in '47, then started a pro career for real a year later in '48. In seven years of maintaining an active professional boxing career, he had 48 fights, or just under seven fights a year- that is an excellent activity rate. He fought only twice a year during his title reign, but each and every fight was against a quality challenger- though he didn't fight as frequently, period, as, say, Holmes or Louis, he fought a top two challenger far more often than they did.

We saw Rocky at his best... and... that's it. There's nothing beyond his peak. He got out of the game and kept out. When he did attempt a comeback he fought behind closed doors and was more or less embarassed. I'd love to of seen him of fully come back, how that'd drastically affect the discussion we're having right now.
Nonsense. Marciano turned pro with a tiny amateur background and no professional training. He had dozens of fights while extremely raw and inexperienced, at a stage when- literally- many amateurs were better schooled than he was. The fact that he won- every time- even well before his peak, cleaned out his era as decisively as most any champion ever has, retired as champion and never sullied his legacy with a comeback attempt is a remarkable and unequaled feat.
As to "fighting behind closed doors and being embarrassed," I suspect this is another "Charles was already suffering from Lou Gehrig's disease in 1954!" From all that I've read, Marciano considered making a comeback to take the title away from Johansson, went into training for about three weeks, found that he didn't have the motivation or physical prowess he once did and abandoned the idea.