Boxing Enigmas?

[Russell]

Which boxers were the hardest, if not completely impossible, to figure out in the ring?

[TBooze]

Kirkland Laing

Abe Attell

Jem Mace

[biglads]

Kirkland Laing



That's what I would have said.

I'm pretty sure Kirkland couldn't figure out what he was doing himself 95% of the time.

[mcvey]

Kirkland Laing

Abe Attell

Jem Mace
Laing is a good shout ,I saw him box rings around Colin Jones twice ,only to be kod each time,Young Griffo was considered unfathomnable ,sober and at his best.

[Russell]

What did Laing do, exactly?

[mcvey]

What did Laing do, exactly?
He fought with his hands at waist height ,used a lot of feints ,he had quick hands and good power,relied on his reflexes to evade punches,one of his more noteworthy wins was over a comebacking Duran.

[biglads]

Short article about him on this very site

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Russell]

Just googled his name and came up with that one actually.

Thanks, biglads.

[Russell]

No mention of Augustus?!?! :nut :rofl

[teeto]

Burley and Calzage are in here imo , i'll probably get criticised for Calzage!! I'm ready

[klompton]

greb

[McGrain]

Bob Fitzsimmons must have been murder to fathom, seems even the journalists of the time couldn't decide upon how to properly descibre his style, which I feel had become more familiar by the time of the Maher fight. I don't agree with Greb Klompton, same as Armstrong, it was easy to understand and near impossible to counter.

[Sweet Pea]

Bob Fitzsimmons must have been murder to fathom, seems even the journalists of the time couldn't decide upon how to properly descibre his style, which I feel had become more familiar by the time of the Maher fight. I don't agree with Greb Klompton, same as Armstrong, it was easy to understand and near impossible to counter.Again, you seem to simplify Greb's style, even though many accounts describe him as more than just a pure pressure swarmer, especially the accounts of his sessions with Dempsey. Armstrong was easier to figure out for sure, based on his losses. I see Greb as more of a mixture of Saddler and Calzaghe style-wise than a bigger Armstrong.

[teeto]

Again, you seem to simplify Greb's style, even though many accounts describe him as more than just a pure pressure swarmer, especially the accounts of his sessions with Dempsey. Armstrong was easier to figure out for sure, based on his losses. I see Greb as more of a mixture of Saddler and Calzaghe style-wise than a bigger Armstrong.
I hear this - that Greb was similar to Calzage , in and out , but overwhelming all the time

[McGrain]

Again, you seem to simplify Greb's style, even though many accounts describe him as more than just a pure pressure swarmer, especially the accounts of his sessions with Dempsey. Armstrong was easier to figure out for sure, based on his losses. I see Greb as more of a mixture of Saddler and Calzaghe style-wise than a bigger Armstrong.

Saddler and Calzaghe mixed would be...what though? Surley a dirty pressure fighter. Stylewise I mean, i'm not writing Saddler, Calzaghe or Greb off into one dimension.

[janitor]

Young Griffo

No further comment needed.

[Sweet Pea]

Saddler and Calzaghe mixed would be...what though? Surley a dirty pressure fighter. Stylewise I mean, i'm not writing Saddler, Calzaghe or Greb off into one dimension.Calzaghe is an in and out fighter, using his speed and angles to confuse the opponent, and his constant pressure to keep them off their game.

Saddler works into the dirty side of things. I think Greb was a mixture of the two. It would take more than a pure pressure fighter to handle Walker or Tunney. And in fact, in the accounts of Greb's fight with Walker that you posted, it backed my analysis of Greb up pretty well with his in and out style, did it not?

[sthomas]

Marciano:

Career enigma: Started boxing very late in life, had a very short amatuer career, turned pro @ 23 1/2 years, had a pro career of about 8 1/2 year and retired when 32, as undefeated heavyweight champion with nothing left to proove. That's a meteor shot of a perfect career.

Physical enigma: Short height, arms shorter, not very heavy, seems relatively unathletic, seems relatively slow, kind of looks dorky (sorry Rock)

Style enigma: Controlled mayhem. Looks completely random when fighting but in fact it was well planned. Gyrated his torso like it was rubber, bobbing to where his head went below his knees, defended himself way better than given credit for because of this crazy gyrations, hit from all angles with power from both fists, and never seemed to get tired.

Rocky's story is better than the guy in the movies

[Bokaj]

Golota.

[teeto]

Marciano:

Career enigma: Started boxing very late in life, had a very short amatuer career, turned pro @ 23 1/2 years, had a pro career of about 8 1/2 year and retired when 32, as undefeated heavyweight champion with nothing left to proove. That's a meteor shot of a perfect career.

Physical enigma: Short height, arms shorter, not very heavy, seems relatively unathletic, seems relatively slow, kind of looks dorky (sorry Rock)

Style enigma: Controlled mayhem. Looks completely random when fighting but in fact it was well planned. Gyrated his torso like it was rubber, bobbing to where his head went below his knees, defended himself way better than given credit for because of this crazy gyrations, hit from all angles with power from both fists, and never seemed to get tired.

Rocky's story is better than the guy in the movies

:good :good :good Good post

[McGrain]

Calzaghe is an in and out fighter, using his speed and angles to confuse the opponent, and his constant pressure to keep them off their game.

Saddler works into the dirty side of things. I think Greb was a mixture of the two. It would take more than a pure pressure fighter to handle Walker or Tunney. And in fact, in the accounts of Greb's fight with Walker that you posted, it backed my analysis of Greb up pretty well with his in and out style, did it not?

Yeah, he sounds like someone who would circle when his instincts (which seem extraordinarily well honed) told him his man was building momentum. I certainly wouldn't dispute that Greb worked in and out. But why is that a particularly difficult style to fathom?

Kessler spoke of Calzaghe's "bewildering" punching. But he wasn't talking about Joe's style - Kessler knew what Joe was going to do - he was talking about the speed with which Calzaghe punched, and from multiple angles too.

In short - Joe's style was easy to fathom. He was going to box at distance, time his attack to perfection, attack with violence and then use footspeed to get out of harms way. Kessler understood this. He was just powerless to stop it.

Same thing with Greb. Easy to understand, impossible to prevent, like I stated.

The thing with Fitzsimmons (conversely) was that no-one knew what the hell he was going to do next or how he was going to do it. Fitzsimmons more than once was getting beaten up when he landed the KO blow. "Feint" wasn't a word he took lightly. So he is a fighter I would describe as a fighter who's style is hard to fathom, as opposed to Greb's, which is easy to understand, difficult to counter.

[teeto]

Yeah, he sounds like someone who would circle when his instincts (which seem extraordinarily well honed) told him his man was building momentum. I certainly wouldn't dispute that Greb worked in and out. But why is that a particularly difficult style to fathom?

Kessler spoke of Calzaghe's "bewildering" punching. But he wasn't talking about Joe's style - Kessler knew what Joe was going to do - he was talking about the speed with which Calzaghe punched, and from multiple angles too.

In short - Joe's style was easy to fathom. He was going to box at distance, time his attack to perfection, attack with violence and then use footspeed to get out of harms way. Kessler understood this. He was just powerless to stop it.

Same thing with Greb. Easy to understand, impossible to prevent, like I stated.

The thing with Fitzsimmons (conversely) was that no-one knew what the hell he was going to do next or how he was going to do it. Fitzsimmons more than once was getting beaten up when he landed the KO blow. "Feint" wasn't a word he took lightly. So he is a fighter I would describe as a fighter who's style is hard to fathom, as opposed to Greb's, which is easy to understand, difficult to counter.
Sorry to interrupt here , but just on the subject of guys who you know what they're gonnad do, but you can't do anything about it- Duran, you knew he was gonna absolutely anihilate you and brutalise you, but you could'nt do shit!!!! Haha

Seriously though, still, imo as close to a perfect fighting style as has been, could finish a fight while making a guy miss, going forward, standing upright, dodging a full combo and landing allof his own - and they were the type of punches that finishd fights

[McGrain]

Sorry to interrupt here , but just on the subject of guys who you know what they're gonnad do, but you can't do anything about it- Duran, you knew he was gonna absolutely anihilate you and brutalise you, but you could'nt do shit!!!! Haha

Seriously though, still, imo as close to a perfect fighting style as has been, could finish a fight while making a guy miss, going forward, standing upright, dodging a full combo and landing allof his own - and they were the type of punches that finishd fights

Imagine being in the ring with the guy from the Moore fight?

F*ck that.

[Russell]

Yeah, Duran's one of the very last fighters I'd want to see sneering at me from across a ring.

[teeto]

Imagine being in the ring with the guy from the Moore fight?

F*ck that.
Haha , irreplaceable fighter ! One of a kind, have you seen his ko of Lou Bizarro? You probably have like, brutal!!

Sorry, im not trying to turn this into a Duran apreciation thread!! Getting carried away here!

[teeto]

Yeah, Duran's one of the very last fighters I'd want to see sneering at me from across a ring.

:lol: :lol:

[McGrain]

Teeto, where do you place Duran p4p?

[Sweet Pea]

The thing with Fitzsimmons (conversely) was that no-one knew what the hell he was going to do next or how he was going to do it. Fitzsimmons more than once was getting beaten up when he landed the KO blow. "Feint" wasn't a word he took lightly. So he is a fighter I would describe as a fighter who's style is hard to fathom, as opposed to Greb's, which is easy to understand, difficult to counter.In that case, you knew Fitz was gonna land the big bomb, you just didn't know how to stop it. Very predictable.:D

[dpw417]

McGrain and Pea, do you think Greb might have resembled Marcel Cerdan somewhat?

[teeto]

Teeto, where do you place Duran p4p?
Number 3 p4p all-time , i know its high, but ive had him here for a long time now. My reasonings are largely due to the fighting style i explained in my earlier post, i think p4p should be more to do with that kinda stuff rather than achievements, but i do give credit to that kinda thing aswell , and he;s high there also , as i have him number 1 LW ATG, like a lot of people, and i think achievement carries more weight there.

I know you like the guys from earlier in the century/more obscure fighters more (not saying that's wrong or anything) , but do you have him high p4p yourself?

[McGrain]

In that case, you knew Fitz was gonna land the big bomb, you just didn't know how to stop it. Very predictable.:D

Ah, but he often wasn't looking for the bomb. That's the point. Here:

"As a ring general Fitzsimmons has seldom, if ever, had an equal...wonderful and inexplicable faculty of knowing how to fight a man...always seemed to know just what to do and when to do it...he is a genius in that line."

"He will advance when his antagonist least expects it, and often when in full retreat...he will [change direction] and meet his advancing rival with a right or left just in time to borrow momentum, and add it to the force of his own blow. Though exceedinlgy apt to advance and force the fighting, he has a wonderful faculty fo ding so just when his opponent is not ready..."

Basically, nobody knows what he's about to do. He was regarded as having an odd style, too, one that saw him moving in odd ways, holding his hands in odd positions etc.

[Sweet Pea]

McGrain and Pea, do you think Greb might have resembled Marcel Cerdan somewhat?Not really. Cerdan seemed to be a great example of just a brute force in the ring. Great puncher, overwhelming aggression, etc.

According to accounts, Greb seemed to be one who relied more on dirty tactics, in and out speed, and quantity over quality in his punches. He was looking to outland you and take you off your game with his speed and tactics, similar to how Calzaghe does really. I'd say that's probably the best comparison, though perhaps less of a boxer off the jab than Joe, and more inclined to use angles to find his way in and out. Also obviously dirtier.

Cerdan was just looking to pulverize you from what I've seen. Greb wasn't the puncher that Cerdan was, relied more on overwhelming with his windemill approach, therefore I can't see him implying the same style and sitting down on his punches like Cerdan did.

[McGrain]

McGrain and Pea, do you think Greb might have resembled Marcel Cerdan somewhat?

Maybe. I would guess he was considerably less mobile though, and he exhibits none of the extreme instinct I imagine Greb to posses.

Plus, Cerdan could hit :D

[Sweet Pea]

Ah, but he often wasn't looking for the bomb. That's the point. Here:

"As a ring general Fitzsimmons has seldom, if ever, had an equal...wonderful and inexplicable faculty of knowing how to fight a man...always seemed to know just what to do and when to do it...he is a genius in that line."

"He will advance when his antagonist least expects it, and often when in full retreat...he will [change direction] and meet his advancing rival with a right or left just in time to borrow momentum, and add it to the force of his own blow. Though exceedinlgy apt to advance and force the fighting, he has a wonderful faculty fo ding so just when his opponent is not ready..."

Basically, nobody knows what he's about to do. He was regarded as having an odd style, too, one that saw him moving in odd ways, holding his hands in odd positions etc.

This is why I can never be sure about a fighter like Greb. Based on accounts, any fighter can sound brilliant, but when you compare the accounts of Fitz to the actual footage, it really is laughable. I know, he's past his prime, but the same applies for most fighters of his era.

On the other hand, the guys Greb beat were clearly superior on film, guys like Loughran, Tunney, Walker, etc.

[McGrain]

Number 3 p4p all-time , i know its high, but ive had him here for a long time now. My reasonings are largely due to the fighting style i explained in my earlier post, i think p4p should be more to do with that kinda stuff rather than achievements, but i do give credit to that kinda thing aswell , and he;s high there also , as i have him number 1 LW ATG, like a lot of people, and i think achievement carries more weight there.

I know you like the guys from earlier in the century/more obscure fighters more (not saying that's wrong or anything) , but do you have him high p4p yourself?

I have him at #9.

I don't think you can have him above Langford, Greb, Robinson or Armstrong, personally.

[teeto]

This is why I can never be sure about a fighter like Greb. Based on accounts, any fighter can sound brilliant, but when you compare the accounts of Fitz to the actual footage, it really is laughable. I know, he's past his prime, but the same applies for most fighters of his era.

On the other hand, the guys Greb beat were clearly superior on film, guys like Loughran, Tunney, Walker, etc.
I understand your point , but come on, harsh language! Laughable? Some more respect please!!

[McGrain]

This is why I can never be sure about a fighter like Greb. Based on accounts, any fighter can sound brilliant, but when you compare the accounts of Fitz to the actual footage, it really is laughable. I know, he's past his prime, but the same applies for most fighters of his era.

On the other hand, the guys Greb beat were clearly superior on film, guys like Loughran, Tunney, Walker, etc.

Well i'm not comparing them head to head. Although for my part I certainly don't see it as the foregone conclusion you do. Nor do I find the film of Fitz laughable.

But as you've said, Fitz is past peak on that film. He seems to have become much less mobile around the time of the Maher fight.

[teeto]

I have him at #9.

I don't think you can have him above Langford, Greb, Robinson or Armstrong, personally.
I know you're gonna probably criticise me here , but over time ive come to just accept that Ali (and i dont like him) was an amazing fighter, we can detract from him, but we can from any1. And i have Robinson at number1, Ali 2 and Duran 3. Like i said, imo, p4p is more to do with style and how good a guy was rather than achievement, and i see Ali as one of the very best h2h p4p ever.

Just my opinion though

[McGrain]

I know you're gonna probably criticise me here , but over time ive come to just accept that Ali (and i dont like him) was an amazing fighter, we can detract from him, but we can from any1. And i have Robinson at number1, Ali 2 and Duran 3. Like i said, imo, p4p is more to do with style and how good a guy was rather than achievement, and i see Ali as one of the very best h2h p4p ever.

Just my opinion though

Sounds like an interesting list. Any chance of a look at your ten?

[teeto]

This is why I can never be sure about a fighter like Greb. Based on accounts, any fighter can sound brilliant, but when you compare the accounts of Fitz to the actual footage, it really is laughable. I know, he's past his prime, but the same applies for most fighters of his era.

On the other hand, the guys Greb beat were clearly superior on film, guys like Loughran, Tunney, Walker, etc.
I agree on your comparison of Cerdan-Greb, i believe Greb to be similar to Calzage , and Cerdan, as we can see from footage, was just looking to destroy guys all the time

[dpw417]

Thanks for the assessments guys. Yeah Cerdan was a brute, but he was also pretty quick on his feet (football player)...He worked angles well against Zale. But yeah, he did sit down on his punches...problably more than Greb did...by the reports. I think a much rougher version of Calzaghe is a fair analogy. Whenever I see that clip of Greb 'sparring' with O'Brien and shadowboxing...I see someone who would be very problematic to react to and read in the ring. How do you guys feel about the clip?

[teeto]

Sounds like an interesting list. Any chance of a look at your ten?
Havent done this for a while! Its so tight throughout the middle of the list, but seen as though you put me on the spot -

1. Robinson
2. Ali
3. Duran
4. Greb
5. Pep
6. Langford
7. Jofre (could be higher?)
8. Charles
9. Mayweather (sorry, great fighter imo)
10. Whitaker - dont like him but what he did did the job almost everytime.

I really wanted to put Gans and Calzage in there amongst others , i may do another time!!

Just a rushed copy though really, outside the top3, but there's so many that could get in, Leonard(both), Hagler, Wilde etc. Really hard to narrow down.

Any chance of seeing yours

[teeto]

Thanks for the assessments guys. Yeah Cerdan was a brute, but he was also pretty quick on his feet (football player)...He worked angles well against Zale. But yeah, he did sit down on his punches...problably more than Greb did...by the reports. I think a much rougher version of Calzaghe is a fair analogy. Whenever I see that clip of Greb 'sparring' with O'Brien and shadowboxing...I see someone who would be very problematic to react to and read in the ring. How do you guys feel about the clip?
Im thinking- he just wants to destroy him but knows its wrong to do that to someone in sparring!!!!

[McGrain]

How do you guys feel about the clip?

Just two guys apeing for the cameras as far as I can see. It's nice that we have it though, at least a look at the guy you know?

[McGrain]

1. Robinson
2. Ali
3. Duran
4. Greb
5. Pep
6. Langford
7. Jofre (could be higher?)
8. Charles
9. Mayweather (sorry, great fighter imo)
10. Whitaker - dont like him but what he did did the job almost everytime.

I think this is a really interesting list. This is based primarily on how guys look/how you imagine them to be?

I think Duran above Greb is only possible because there is no footage of him, but I can see Roberto is a favourite of yours. You have fine taste! Jofre is very high, that's interesting...I think I had Mayweather at #39 when I did my 50! I'm coming to see that a place for Whitaker in the top 20 can be justified, but top ten is still a stretch for me at this time.

Any chance of seeing yours

Sure:

1 - Sam Langford
2 - Sugar Ray Robinson
3 - Henry Armstrong
4 - Harry Greb
5 - Ezzard Charles
6 - Mickey Walker
7 - Willie Pep
8 - Archie Moore
9 - Roberto Duran
10 - Bob Fitzsimmons
11 - Muhammad Ali
12 - Charley Burley

I went to 12 to show you where I have my very favourite, Charley Burley.

[teeto]

I think this is a really interesting list. This is based primarily on how guys look/how you imagine them to be?

I think Duran above Greb is only possible because there is no footage of him, but I can see Roberto is a favourite of yours. You have fine taste! Jofre is very high, that's interesting...I think I had Mayweather at #39 when I did my 50! I'm coming to see that a place for Whitaker in the top 20 can be justified, but top ten is still a stretch for me at this time.



Sure:

1 - Sam Langford
2 - Sugar Ray Robinson
3 - Henry Armstrong
4 - Harry Greb
5 - Ezzard Charles
6 - Mickey Walker
7 - Willie Pep
8 - Archie Moore
9 - Roberto Duran
10 - Bob Fitzsimmons
11 - Muhammad Ali
12 - Charley Burley

I went to 12 to show you where I have my very favourite, Charley Burley.
Good list, for some reason i keep leaving out Walker, i need to give him more credit in terms of p4p, Moore is high in my opinion, but i know you really rate him. I think we have a common favourite in Charles aswell? ATG of the highest order.

I do give credit here outside of how good they looked in the ring, but that is the main basis for guys like Jofre (mostly from reports).

These lists are so hard though, i prefer doing them by weight division (obviously because its less of a headache ordering them!!).

Who do you think would be the greatest of all the 'uncrowned champions', as they are referred to? My favorite is also Burley, but i'd have him at number 3 behind Bivins and Langford, who is number 1 imo.
The reason i have Burley as my favourite of that pack is because he was a natural ww, although i rate him high at mw, as his best work was done there, remarkable in such a tough(in many senses) era

[McGrain]

Who do you think would be the greatest of all the 'uncrowned champions', as they are referred to? My favorite is also Burley, but i'd have him at number 3 behind Bivins and Langford, who is number 1 imo.

Uncrowned champs -

1 - Sam Langford
2 - Charley Burley
3 - Peter Jackson
4 - Packy Mcfarland
5 - Harry Wills

The reason i have Burley as my favourite of that pack is because he was a natural ww, although i rate him high at mw, as his best work was done there, remarkable in such a tough(in many senses) era

Yeah, he fought some very very very tough guys, although the toughest dodged him constantly.

[teeto]

Uncrowned champs -

1 - Sam Langford
2 - Charley Burley
3 - Peter Jackson
4 - Packy Mcfarland
5 - Harry Wills



Yeah, he fought some very very very tough guys, although the toughest dodged him constantly.
Yeah , i know , for obvious reasons, Robinson is one of my all-time favourites, but when I read Burley's book i was dissapointed, i know everyone has to 'duck' (if it must be called that) some guys, but Burley campaigning to fight Robinson for free and not getting the fight raised my eyebrow a bit!

[Sweet Pea]

Well i'm not comparing them head to head. Although for my part I certainly don't see it as the foregone conclusion you do. Nor do I find the film of Fitz laughable.

But as you've said, Fitz is past peak on that film. He seems to have become much less mobile around the time of the Maher fight.Really? I see no real modern boxing skill from either Fitz or his opposition(Lang and Corbett) in either clips of him that I've seen. And the footage of Fitz/Corbett is 12 years prior to the footage of Fitz/Lang, even if it is lesser in quality.

[McGrain]

Yeah , i know , for obvious reasons, Robinson is one of my all-time favourites, but when I read Burley's book i was dissapointed, i know everyone has to 'duck' (if it must be called that) some guys, but Burley campaigning to fight Robinson for free and not getting the fight raised my eyebrow a bit!

Yeah. I was shocked to learn that Robinson was offered a career best pay day and still managed to say "no thanks".

[teeto]

Yeah. I was shocked to learn that Robinson was offered a career best pay day and still managed to say "no thanks".
Robinson was obviously a master of his trade, and knew his profession inside out, do you really think he dodged him because he thought he'd get beat? (serious question)

Mad that this conversation is about Sugar Ray Robinson!

[Russell]

Robinson was obviously a master of his trade, and knew his profession inside out, do you really think he dodged him because he thought he'd get beat? (serious question)

Mad that this conversation is about Sugar Ray Robinson!

Erm, Robinson did a lot of less than "perfect" things.

Mob ties and wife beating for starters.

[McGrain]

Robinson was obviously a master of his trade, and knew his profession inside out, do you really think he dodged him because he thought he'd get beat? (serious question)

Mad that this conversation is about Sugar Ray Robinson!

Part of it was that Burley was so easy to avoid.

But as far as if they had fought? The first time it was mooted, I feel Burley would have been a favourite. Over a three fight series, who knows? They are my 1 and 2 head to head at the weight - although i'm beginning to wonder if Walker shouldn't have one of those spots.

[McGrain]

Really? I see no real modern boxing skill from either Fitz or his opposition(Lang and Corbett) in either clips of him that I've seen. And the footage of Fitz/Corbett is 12 years prior to the footage of Fitz/Lang, even if it is lesser in quality.

He's fighting a different fight.

Put Hopkins in with Fitzsimmons instead of Corbett and i'd expect Fitz to take his head off, personally.

[teeto]

Erm, Robinson did a lot of less than "perfect" things.

Mob ties and wife beating for starters.
Im not really that bothered about outside of the ring stuff, not to be ignorant, but in boxing terms, near perfection

EDIT: i mean i am bothered about that kinda thing, its pure wrongness, but at the time i wasnt considering outside the ring activity, just boxing

[teeto]

McGrain , what i meant was , do you actually think Robinson thought he would get beat by Burley , come on , answer please! I dunno what i think on it

[McGrain]

McGrain , what i meant was , do you actually think Robinson thought he would get beat by Burley , come on , answer please! I dunno what i think on it

I think that Robinson thought, at the very least, that that was the hardest fight out there for him at 147.

[teeto]

I think that Robinson thought, at the very least, that that was the hardest fight out there for him at 147.
I agree, lets just leave it at that, its clear that to go any further would be to disrespect one of the greatest fighters ever

[Ted Spoon]

The two fantastic Lightweights, Benny Leonard and Pernell Whitaker.

[brooklyn1550]

In the current scene, Joe Calzaghe and Manny Pacquiao are difficult to figure out because of their quick in-and-out movement. It's hard to time their rhythms.