Do We Seriously Underate How Fighters Do Against B+ Competition On ESB?

[acb]

I ask because it seems we put so much emphasis on having ATG's or P4P type fighters on resume and give little attention to how fighters dispatch B or B+ level fighters in their careers.

For example, Shane Mosely's greatness was called into question the other day, and the arguement went that he only really had DLH (and a ring worn Vargas) on his resume- and thus is overated. However, the way he went through the lightweight division was incredible, and anyone with obvservation skills knows that he is great.

The upper echelon of boxing is so incredibly talented that I think they do themselves a diservice to themselves by keeping any fighters out of the top 10-15 in the world out of contention for ATG status. Then, their accomplishments seem to get trashed, when it takes incredible skills and athleticism to do what they often do to fighters just out of the top 15-20 in the world.

[TFFP]

Very much so

I always say, it's not just who you beat but how you do it. But really it is being able to analyse and appraise a fighters skill set that is badly lacking in these parts, too many boxrec warriors

[Smazz20]

Defo. How many b+ fighters has Jones dispatched with ease, yet gets ridiculed for it.

Everyone loves Gatti and highlight his trilogy with Ward, yet Mayweather annihilates him and is said to be cherry picking.


Countless more examples of this.

[PACZ]

Some Of These Guys Are Very Good And Words Like Xposed Shot And So On Are Always On Here. Half The People On Here Probably Haven't Even Won A Fistfight Or Have Been In One.....!

[PH|LLA]

can't speak for the rest of ESB.

i don't underrated these wins but i don't overrate them either.

[Decker]

I ask because it seems we put so much emphasis on having ATG's or P4P type fighters on resume and give little attention to how fighters dispatch B or B+ level fighters in their careers.
...
The upper echelon of boxing is so incredibly talented that I think they do themselves a diservice to themselves by keeping any fighters out of the top 10-15 in the world out of contention for ATG status. Then, their accomplishments seem to get trashed, when it takes incredible skills and athleticism to do what they often do to fighters just out of the top 15-20 in the world. Strongly agree. Even worse is when so many keyboard warriors here will call a solid B/B+ fighter "C" level or even worse (a "bum") to discredit the wins by a fighter they don't like or hate. They're frigin' forum tools. It's like do you have to be lock HOF status to be considered just good to these clowns :-(

[Amsterdam]

Strongly agree. Even worse is when so many keyboard warriors here will call a solid B/B+ fighter "C" level or even worse (a "bum") to discredit the wins by a fighter they don't like or hate. They're frigin' forum tools. It's like do you have to be lock HOF status to be considered just good to these clowns :-(

But ironic to this statement, which I agree with, they seem to hype guys that are nothing more than B to B+ as if they are going to be future ATG's and then view the BEST prospects with total suspicion. That personally blows my mind.

They even view some of the best fighters with suspicion.

Some Jorge Linares booster really believed that right now he could jump to 130 and beat Guzman. That's ridiculous and sad that an A level like Guzman gets so underrated.

[Decker]

But ironic to this statement, which I agree with, they seem to hype guys that are nothing more than B to B+ as if they are going to be future ATG's and then view the BEST prospects with total suspicion. That personally blows my mind.

They even view some of the best fighters with suspicion.

Some Jorge Linares booster really believed that right now he could jump to 130 and beat Guzman. That's ridiculous and sad that an A level like Guzman gets so underrated. Preaching to the choir... and you're right it goes in the other direction too.
Let's face it - most of this bias (in either direction) is based on national or racial/ethnic colored glasses.

[kg0208]

Yes, sorta. But even Mosley didn't beat alot of B+ fighters, but alot of C+ and B level fighters.

De La Hoya is a better example of someone who's resume gets underrated here. People say. "Well everytime he stepped up he lost". One, that isn't true, but beyond that, he lost to ATG's. He easily beat alot of B to B+ level champions that he gets no credit for, more than anyone in this generation.

[Amsterdam]

Preaching to the choir... and you're right it goes in the other direction too.
Let's face it - most of this bias (in either direction) is based on national or racial/ethnic colored glasses.

Not with the Linares-Guzman comparison though. Linares has so many boosting fans who really think he's a future P4P talent(I personally feel and know he's just a good B+)and Guzman just has a bunch of doubters.

It's not really ethnic here, both are hispanic.

Another prime example was last year everyone doubting Cotto prior to Judah and Mosely, but then hyping up Joshua Clottey big time just for showing some skill against the very overrated Antonio Margarito. Then the same thing with Williams, he was supposed to be a big hassle to PBF.

So it's a problem both ways. Calling a good top 30 fighter a bum is absurd, hell, even calling a good mid level journeyman a bum is absurd. I try to call fighters for what they are, but these guys who take a solely 'good fighter' and make him out to be something great get on my nerves personally more than the idiots who think anyone not in the P4P top 10 is not worth anyone's time.

[PH|LLA]

Yes, sorta. But even Mosley didn't beat alot of B+ fighters, but alot of C+ and B level fighters.

De La Hoya is a better example of someone who's resume gets underrated here. People say. "Well everytime he stepped up he lost". One, that isn't true, but beyond that, he lost to ATG's. He easily beat alot of B to B+ level champions that he gets no credit for, more than anyone in this generation.
I think alot of losses get underrated as well.

For example Mosley's 2nd loss to Winky Wright, for me that was a great performance, but most people will see it as a blemish.

[kg0208]

Not with the Linares-Guzman comparison though. Linares has so many boosting fans who really think he's a future P4P talent(I personally feel and know he's just a good B+)and Guzman just has a bunch of doubters.

It's not really ethnic here, both are hispanic.

Another prime example was last year everyone doubting Cotto prior to Judah and Mosely, but then hyping up Joshua Clottey big time just for showing some skill against the very overrated Antonio Margarito. Then the same thing with Williams, he was supposed to be a big hassle to PBF.

So it's a problem both ways. Calling a good top 30 fighter a bum is absurd, hell, even calling a good mid level journeyman a bum is absurd. I try to call fighters for what they are, but these guys who take a solely 'good fighter' and make him out to be something great get on my nerves personally more than the idiots who think anyone not in the P4P top 10 is not worth anyone's time.

Ahem.....Jermain Taylor.....Ahem.

[kg0208]

I think alot of losses get underrated as well.

For example Mosley's 2nd loss to Winky Wright, for me that was a great performance, but most people will see it as a blemish.

True, so was his 2nd loss to Forrest, which he put on a better showing.

[Amsterdam]

Yes, sorta. But even Mosley didn't beat alot of B+ fighters, but alot of C+ and B level fighters.

De La Hoya is a better example of someone who's resume gets underrated here. People say. "Well everytime he stepped up he lost". One, that isn't true, but beyond that, he lost to ATG's. He easily beat alot of B to B+ level champions that he gets no credit for, more than anyone in this generation.

The issue is that I had him clearly losing to Quartey, Whitaker & Sturm, along with his other losses and those are real negatives, even with how he blew through B level competition. Let me also add that I had the Tito fight a draw.

I would call DLH a great fighter, but a top level 'ATG' like some mention, no. He's not a legitimate top 40 fighter.

He had the capability of beating all of those guys but Hopkins, I will of course give him that, but he didn't.

[kg0208]

The issue is that I had him clearly losing to Quartey, Whitaker & Sturm, along with his other losses and those are real negatives, even with how he blew through B level competition. Let me also add that I had the Tito fight a draw.

I would call DLH a great fighter, but a top level 'ATG' like some mention, no. He's not a legitimate top 40 fighter.

You had him clearly losing to Quartey and Whitaker? Both those fights were close enough to go his way, and Trinidad, as you well know, most people had him beating.

You don't call him an ATG at all per our last discussion, even though IMO he clearly is. Just near 60's or 70's.

[Amsterdam]

Ahem.....Jermain Taylor.....Ahem.

I never called him a bum, I have always contested that he's a 'fraud' and not what anybody thought he was, which was not a true elite.

Is he good? He wouldn't be here if that's not the case. I've never realistically mentioned that he was a 'bum', meaning no ability or skill at all.

And also, fuck Jermain Taylor, I don't even want to talk about that piece of garbage.

[kirk]

what a great initial post... i wish more could think like that.

[kg0208]

I never called him a bum, I have always contested that he's a 'fraud' and not what anybody thought he was, which was not a true elite.

Is he good? He wouldn't be here if that's not the case. I've never realistically mentioned that he was a 'bum', meaning no ability or skill at all.

And also, fuck Jermain Taylor, I don't even want to talk about that piece of garbage.

Your posts are harder and harder to figure out when you are being "realistic".

And Taylor was never a fraud. For him to be a fraud, HE would have to do something or say something that he was not. Not his fans. They were misinformed or overzealous. Again, this has no bearing on Taylor himself, who you have an unhealthy dislike for considering the upstanding guy he has always been in victory AND defeat.

[Amsterdam]

Your posts are harder and harder to figure out when you are being "realistic".

And Taylor was never a fraud. For him to be a fraud, HE would have to do something or say something that he was not. Not his fans. They were misinformed or overzealous. Again, this has no bearing on Taylor himself, who you have an unhealthy dislike for considering the upstanding guy he has always been in victory AND defeat.

I hope he just retires, then I won't have to see him mentioned again. It's irritating when a B+ level fighter like Taylor is boosted to be an elite P4P and given unfair advantages, to me he's a representation of what's wrong with boxing.

I hear Kessler versus Taylor is a possible match this year, I hope it happens so everyone can see just how much more unevolved these overrated fighters are to real elite fighters that get little to no praise due to ignorance.

Despite the fact that Pavlik barely beat Taylor this last time out, it has still given him a P4P top 10 spot. If Kessler blows Taylor out in 3 rounds, he wouldn't be.

That's the idiocy we deal with. Pavlik being so flawed allowed Taylor to look better in the 2nd fight and almost gave the fight away. Yet the fans were impressed by both guys, when it's not worth being impressed about considering the undercard performance by the great Cristian Mijares.

[Decker]

Not with the Linares-Guzman comparison though. Linares has so many boosting fans who really think he's a future P4P talent(I personally feel and know he's just a good B+)and Guzman just has a bunch of doubters.

It's not really ethnic here, both are hispanic. Well you're keeping up w/the other divisions better than I am. But I said in most
cases the bias is national or racial/ethnic - and we both know that within a broad group like Hispanic, there can be many "tribal" divisions.
...
So it's a problem both ways. Calling a good top 30 fighter a bum is absurd, hell, even calling a good mid level journeyman a bum is absurd. I try to call fighters for what they are, but these guys who take a solely 'good fighter' and make him out to be something great get on my nerves personally more than the idiots who think anyone not in the P4P top 10 is not worth anyone's time. Agree - except the bias in either direction gets on my nerves about the same :cool:

[brooklyn1550]

You can tell a lot about a fighter based on how they do against B level competition.

For instance, Jermain Taylor struggles to beat B level opposition and has lost 2 fights to a B level fighter. Mikkel Kessler has barely lost a round against B level opposition.

[Farmboxer]

Vitali and Vlad are great against B level or A level.

[Amsterdam]

Well you're keeping up w/the other divisions better than I am. But I said in most
cases the bias is national or racial/ethnic - and we both know that within a broad group like Hispanic, there can be many "tribal" divisions.
...
Agree - except the bias in either direction gets on my nerves about the same :cool:

Well, it would be a country to country thing, except that I only know two Dominican posters on here and no Chilean posters on here, which are Guzman's and Linares's nationalities I believe.

And all of the fans that I am talking about are either British, Phillipino or American and have no ethnic ties to these guys. It's a matter of fighter prefferance, but it's just amusing how so many fighters who are evidently flawed just get so overrated by many and then some of the best are just shit on.

Jermain Taylor and his whole deal is a prime example. Then we have a couple of brilliant European's around the general division that either don't get press or get criticised down for basically being vastly superior to the likes of Jermain Taylor.

[Amsterdam]

You can tell a lot about a fighter based on how they do against B level competition.

For instance, Jermain Taylor struggles to beat B level opposition and has lost 2 fights to a B level fighter. Mikkel Kessler has barely lost a round against B level opposition.

See guys, you all say that I'm too harsch on Taylor, but the first thing that anybody thinks of with overrated is Jermain Taylor and how he was projected to be a future ATG.

And then how Mikkel Kessler is criticised for being MUCH better.

And then these dumb fans who think dropping 4-5 rounds in each fight against Ouma and Spinks is more impressive for a large MW-SMW sized fighter than dominating Andrade and Mundine respectively. You just can't even win.

[kg0208]

See guys, you all say that I'm too harsch on Taylor, but the first thing that anybody thinks of with overrated is Jermain Taylor and how he was projected to be a future ATG.

And then how Mikkel Kessler is criticised for being MUCH better.

And then these dumb fans who think dropping 4-5 rounds in each fight against Ouma and Spinks is more impressive for a large MW-SMW sized fighter than dominating Andrade and Mundine respectively. You just can't even win.

Never made the comparison. Don't care too.

I am talking about Taylor on his OWN merits is not a fraud. The opinions of posters should be held against the poster and not against the fighter. Taylor himself never claimed anything other than he was going to do his best.

[BigReg]

See guys, you all say that I'm too harsch on Taylor, but the first thing that anybody thinks of with overrated is Jermain Taylor and how he was projected to be a future ATG.

And then how Mikkel Kessler is criticised for being MUCH better.

And then these dumb fans who think dropping 4-5 rounds in each fight against Ouma and Spinks is more impressive for a large MW-SMW sized fighter than dominating Andrade and Mundine respectively. You just can't even win.

When is the last time anyone has tried to prop up Jermaine? The guy has been getting criticised for years. Even people in his own hometown turned on him years ago.

[Amsterdam]

Never made the comparison. Don't care too.

I am talking about Taylor on his OWN merits is not a fraud. The opinions of posters should be held against the poster and not against the fighter. Taylor himself never claimed anything other than he was going to do his best.

He's profited heavily off of being lesser than what a real elite fighter is due to greed and corruption, and instead, many potential elite's get locked out.

He's a perfect representation of this and he'd bad for boxing on top of it. Fucker can't even speak correctly and it's not just the stutter, he really is just a dumb person and provided many piss poor fights at that.

Everything about him and his aura is obnoxious.

[kg0208]

He's profited heavily off of being lesser than what a real elite fighter is due to greed and corruption, and instead, many potential elite's get locked out.

He's a perfect representation of this and he'd bad for boxing on top of it. Fucker can't even speak correctly and it's not just the stutter, he really is just a dumb person and provided many piss poor fights at that.

Everything about him and his aura is obnoxious.

That was a reach. And even then, that's BOXING'S fault. He profited from getting in the ring and fighting. He did his job, his only job. No matter how you spin this, it's not Taylor's fault nor has he misrepresented himself.

That part about him being dumb and having a stutter was utterly unnecessary. Clouded judgement Amsterdam. And I think this has more to do with Calzaghe then Taylor (IE. Taylor getting props and being pushed as the next big thing while Calzaghe gets criticized).

[pipe wrenched]

Do your thing KG!!

[Amsterdam]

That was a reach. And even then, that's BOXING'S fault. He profited from getting in the ring and fighting. He did his job, his only job. No matter how you spin this, it's not Taylor's fault nor has he misrepresented himself.

Yeah, because he can't represent himself period. He's a pawn and a monument of everything that needs to change in the sport.

That part about him being dumb and having a stutter was utterly unnecessary.

Not at all, plenty of people can represent themselves well and have a speech impediment. Taylor is truly just a dumb fuck and I can't stand listening to him speak. This is the kind of representitive of the MW division that we had for 2 years, 2 hellish years with this overrated piece of fucking trash that never belonged anywhere but as a decent contender.

Clouded judgement Amsterdam.

Anybody who wants to defend this situation is the one with clouded judgement. It's almost as if we're being 'anti-elite fighters being on top' a little bit.


And I think this has more to do with Calzaghe then Taylor (IE. Taylor getting props and being pushed as the next big thing while Calzaghe gets criticized).


This has to do with every underrated, phenominal fighter that gets NOTHING while any of these overrated, supposedly marketable B levels...

Let me name a few more - Linares, Donaire, Berto...

... Get massive hype behind them and we're stuck with them all. And then the establishment can just feed them the right opponents with name recognition that should pose little threat, just like Linares' little coming out against Larios and how these dumb fans recieved it. Despite it being EVIDENT that Linares is just a fucking B level that can be a B+ with all of his flaws.

It's sickening.

[newmanae]

Defo. How many b+ fighters has Jones dispatched with ease, yet gets ridiculed for it.

Everyone loves Gatti and highlight his trilogy with Ward, yet Mayweather annihilates him and is said to be cherry picking.


Countless more examples of this.
Good example, Gatti cerntainly was in his prime by that fight and what about PBFs split decision over a prime DLH, not to mention that great boxer Hatton.
Floyd has been skating since leaving super feather weight.

[Decker]

...
It's a matter of fighter prefferance, Sure, sometimes it comes down to what style a fan prefers.
but it's just amusing how so many fighters who are evidently flawed just get so overrated by many and then some of the best are just shit on.

Jermain Taylor and his whole deal is a prime example. Then we have a couple of brilliant European's around the general division that either don't get press or get criticised down for basically being vastly superior to the likes of Jermain Taylor. If you're referring to Calzaghe or Kessler or others, I agree. But JT is a Merican, you see. And that alone (with other factors) will get him more than a bit of undeserved props :blood

[kg0208]

Yeah, because he can't represent himself period. He's a pawn and a monument of everything that needs to change in the sport.



Not at all, plenty of people can represent themselves well and have a speech impediment. Taylor is truly just a dumb fuck and I can't stand listening to him speak. This is the kind of representitive of the MW division that we had for 2 years, 2 hellish years with this overrated piece of fucking trash that never belonged anywhere but as a decent contender.



Anybody who wants to defend this situation is the one with clouded judgement. It's almost as if we're being 'anti-elite fighters being on top' a little bit.



This has to do with every underrated, phenominal fighter that gets NOTHING while any of these overrated, supposedly marketable B levels...

Let me name a few more - Linares, Donaire, Berto...

... Get massive hype behind them and we're stuck with them all. And then the establishment can just feed them the right opponents with name recognition that should pose little threat, just like Linares' little coming out against Larios and how these dumb fans recieved it. Despite it being EVIDENT that Linares is just a fucking B level that can be a B+ with all of his flaws.

It's sickening.
He represents himself everytime he steps in the ring, gives an interview post fight or pre-fight. Again, you're simply guessing and attributing things to him that fuel your dislike for him. He is no more a pawn than Calzaghe is for his promoter.

He obviously isn't dumb. And while there are plenty of people with speech impediments who learn to speak properly, many don't. And even so, most don't have to do so on national television. Even so, you have no reason to use his speech impediment against him. This just illustrates how irrational you are about someone you have never met, and that you are holding someone else accountable for other people's crimes.

I am not defending the situation. I don't see a situation. YOU see one. Taylor is just a fighter. I am defending him as a fighter and what he has done in the ring, what every fighter does in the ring. I blame fans for overrating fighters, not the fighter himself. He isn't a judge, he can't give himself gift decisions, or any of those things. If anything, he has been upstanding. He fought everyone. He fought Pavlik twice, he fought Hopkins twice, Wright, Ouma, and Spinks. ALL champions. My judgement is quite clear.

Your last rant, as I said and already concluded is against the boxing world and establishment. It's not Taylor's fault. You need to deal with them and not focus on Taylor.

[kg0208]

You can contunue your rant against Taylor. Fine by me. It isn't rational Amsterdam. All he did was fight championship level fighters. Some smaller than him, some his size. All champions do this. He never misrepresented himself. Even if I agreed he never represented himself at all or is incapable (and I don't), he would still not have MISrepresented himself.

[Amsterdam]

He represents himself everytime he steps in the ring, gives an interview post fight or pre-fight. Again, you're simply guessing and attributing things to him that fuel your dislike for him. He is no more a pawn than Calzaghe is for his promoter.

I'm not guessing, these things are right there for anybody to see if they want to look.

He obviously isn't dumb.

:lol:

One of the dumbest mother fuckers in the sport, what are YOU trying to suggest here?

And while there are plenty of people with speech impediments who learn to speak properly, many don't. And even so, most don't have to do so on national television. Even so, you have no reason to use his speech impediment against him.

I'm not using that against him, I clearly stated that his ignorant verbal representation of himself had little to do with having a speech impediment as it did with him being a stupid, low brow individual in general.

This just illustrates how irrational you are about someone you have never met, and that you are holding someone else accountable for other people's crimes.

Who says I haven't met him and is Taylor not apart of the situation?

I am not defending the situation. I don't see a situation. YOU see one. Taylor is just a fighter. I am defending him as a fighter and what he has done in the ring, what every fighter does in the ring. I blame fans for overrating fighters, not the fighter himself. He isn't a judge, he can't give himself gift decisions, or any of those things. If anything, he has been upstanding. He fought everyone. He fought Pavlik twice, he fought Hopkins twice, Wright, Ouma, and Spinks. ALL champions. My judgement is quite clear.

Yes, your judgement is defending corruption and mediocrity in an attempt to be impartial.


Your last rant, as I said and already concluded is against the boxing world and establishment. It's not Taylor's fault. You need to deal with them and not focus on Taylor.


Somebody always has to pay, this time my focus is on one of the prime examples of the establishment that needs to be changed and the fans that have eaten him up. He's every bit as fault for these issue's as the men behind the scenes are.

The same with Amir Khan over in the UK.

[Amsterdam]

You can contunue your rant against Taylor. Fine by me. It isn't rational Amsterdam. All he did was fight championship level fighters. Some smaller than him, some his size. All champions do this. He never misrepresented himself. Even if I agreed he never represented himself at all or is incapable (and I don't), he would still not have MISrepresented himself.

I'm going to continue my anti-Taylor stance until that example of disgust known as 'Jermain Taylor' is out of the sport. He didn't misrepresent himself directly because he cannot, but he's still a prime example of everything that's wrong, embodied perfectly.

And for that, he's a monument of sickness within the sport and I can't stand his presence.

[Fedor Em]

I'm going to continue my anti-Taylor stance until that example of disgust known as 'Jermain Taylor' is out of the sport. He didn't misrepresent himself directly because he cannot, but he's still a prime example of everything that's wrong, embodied perfectly.

And for that, he's a monument of sickness within the sport and I can't stand his presence.

You're delusional and paranoid. :rofl :rofl Get ready for a 6 month Jermain Taylor avatar.

[Amsterdam]

You're delusional and paranoid. :rofl :rofl Get ready for a 6 month Jermain Taylor avatar.

But you're the one banking on Hopkins beating supernatural Joe, that's more absurd than anything I've ever said.

[kg0208]

I'm not guessing, these things are right there for anybody to see if they want to look.



:lol:

One of the dumbest mother fuckers in the sport, what are YOU trying to suggest here?



I'm not using that against him, I clearly stated that his ignorant verbal representation of himself had little to do with having a speech impediment as it did with him being a stupid, low brow individual in general.



Who says I haven't met him and is Taylor not apart of the situation?



Yes, your judgement is defending corruption and mediocrity in an attempt to be impartial.



Somebody always has to pay, this time my focus is on one of the prime examples of the establishment that needs to be changed and the fans that have eaten him up. He's every bit as fault for these issue's as the men behind the scenes are.

The same with Amir Khan over in the UK.

I don't need to be impartial. I think you said that just to have something to latch onto and discredit my position. And if you have met Taylor already, I think you woiuld have mentioned it as a counter point by now.

I have nothing left to say that I haven't already said.

[newmanae]

You hate Taylor and I suppose you love Bhop & Winky whose boring 1-2 and hold, fight no more rounds than you have to, take no chances styles basically killed the middleweight division for years. True I think people and judges were sick of those guys and maybe gave a polite self deprecating young fighter some breaks. Look what we got for it, Pavlik! He never would have gotten a shot 2 years ago,now he wants to unify the title. The division was saved by Taylor and the underestimation of him. Now if we could do something about that WWE sensation Pretty Boy Floyd and all these geriatrics hanging around boxing might have a chance against MMA.

[Keihule]

Good thread.

I personally think title defenses are very important to a fighters legacy and with many title defenses comes alot of B level fighters just due to the nature of the many weightdivisions and the fact that talent is spread thin in the divisions with about 3 or 4 guys around the top (with the exception of welterweight).

I hate to say it, but I believe all these different weight divisions and champs are partly to blame with the underrating of a guy beating B level fighters. Most B level fighters have no way to make a name for themselves because the competition is spread thin, so they go from fighting bums and padding records to a title shot, it is somewhat unfair to the fighters, too often rushed to the top due to lack of contenders and competition spread thin.