Saoul Mamby vs Howard Davis Jr.

[Titan1]

Would Saoul have outslicked Howard at 140 in a 15 rounder?

[TBooze]

Davis was a natural talent, Mamby showed what you could with amazing dedication. It would all depend when they met.

Pre 1982 I would fancy Mamby WU15; but in 1982 or 83 Davis WS15.

[buzzsaw]

Unless one of these guys would knock the other guy out I think you would have a different winner every time they fought. I looked at the quality of opposition both faced and I thought wins and losses it was close but with the edge towards Saoul. Based on that "S.W.A.G." I pick Mamby 5 out of 10 times.

[Duodenum]

Sweet Saoul could do it all. He successfully defended his title against Termite Watkins by taking him on the inside. Duran's body attack couldn't put Mamby down, or take him out. His discipline was amazing. His chin and toughness were legendary. His form was as sound as any boxers of his era. He retired the younger DeJesus when Esteban was 28. (Only world champions Antonio Gomez, Antonio Cervantes, and Roberto Duran were able to defeat Vita. Only Duran had ever been able to stop him within 15 rounds, before Mamby took him out in 13.)

Saoul was far better against Watkins, Goins, and McGirt than Howard was. Mamby also officially won four times over the 15 round distance, was flagrantly robbed of a fifth 15 round decision over Muangsurin in Thailand (a verdict even Saensak's hometown supporters found disturbing), and was arguably robbed of a sixth 15 round decision when Leroy Haley was awarded his title. Howard went 15 rounds once, and Jim Watt outpointed him handily.

If Mamby chose to punch with lethal intent, he was certainly capable of doing that on occasion. That's important, because I think Saoul would sent Howard to the deck at least once. Davis may have been the fastest man in boxing during his career, but he wasn't nearly as technically proficient as Mamby was. With each at their best, Saoul still secures a clear cut win on the scorecards.

Mamby UD 15 Davis, Jr.

[Cobra33]

No offense but I don't consider Mamby all that.
His fight with Dejesus consisted of alot of holding before he finished him off in the 13th.And Dejesus was no longer in his pime.
Mamby appears to me to be very awkward with a sound chin.
I mean I have the Dejesus bout and I don't consider that a boxing masterpiece.I mean there were so many clinches in that bout it wasn't funny.
Mamby wouldn't be able to deal with Davis's speed.And Davis movement would present Mamby with huge problems.
Davis defeats Mamby by decision.

[unitas]

i like davis..

[Duodenum]

No offenseNone taken but I don't consider Mamby all that.
His fight with Dejesus consisted of alot of holding before he finished him off in the 13th.And Dejesus was no longer in his pime.
Mamby appears to me to be very awkward with a sound chin.
I mean I have the Dejesus bout and I don't consider that a boxing masterpiece.I mean there were so many clinches in that bout it wasn't funny.
Mamby wouldn't be able to deal with Davis's speed.And Davis movement would present Mamby with huge problems.
Davis defeats Mamby by decision.Granted, DeJesus was an ancient 28, and losing the rubber match to Duran probably extinguished Vita's fighting heart, but he had been undefeated since that loss, and was boxing on live prime-time American television for another title, and chance at redemption.

You do have an advantage on me, in that I haven't seen the match for many years, but I also recall Mamby demonstrating a very fine jab in that performance. I believe Saoul had the defensive skills to blunt Howard, and sufficient speed and power to reach Davis and drop him. I also think Mamby's proven endurance over the 15 round distance would come into play late. Not only was Howard outpointed by Watt, Larry Hazzard has essentially admitted that Vilomar Fernandez was robbed of a decision that was rightfully his, and that their match was the one in which Howard should have sustained his first official defeat.

[Cobra33]

But Mamby didn't hit hard.And he paced himself due I think to his age.In his title defences he scored 0 knockouts and 0 knockdowns except for DEJESUS who was damaged goods.
What do you consider Mamby's 5 best performances?

[Duodenum]

But Mamby didn't hit hard.And he paced himself due I think to his age.In his title defences he scored 0 knockouts and 0 knockdowns except for DEJESUS who was damaged goods.
What do you consider Mamby's 5 best performances?Obviously, Mamby's best win was when he TKO'ed Sang Hyun Kim in 14 rounds to win the WBC Light Welterweight Title in Seoul. Mamby was actually winning on all scorecards when a nasty looking right hand slammed his target to the deck. (This may have been the last title change recorded on black and white footage.) After that, it has to be DeJesus, one he carried off before a primetime television audience. Jo Kimpuani was a dominant 15 UD win in Detroit. The aforemention defense in Vegas against Watkins. He retired Gary Hinton on a ninth round TKO. He was especially good against Monroe Brooks, repeatedly nailing the veteran with his right hand, and essentially ending his viable career.

Vilomar Fernandez was the poster boy for not hitting hard. If he could drop Howard, then Saoul certainly had the combination of speed and power necessary to score a points building KD or two. I have seen Mamby score knockdowns with both his cross and his hook. His punching technique with both would have been sufficient to drop Howard, who in no way, shape, or form would have countered with a KD of his own, not against the steel chinned slickster Mamby.

[Cobra33]

Brooks was way done before he met Mamby.
Mamby was a pros pro but is a little overrated.

When people talk about boxer's who had great jabs Mamby is never mentioned.Partly because he is overlooked but also because truthfully his jab wasn't anything to write home about.

Pernell Whitaker
Kostya Tsyzu
JC Chavez
Edwin Rosario
Aaron Pryor
Zab Judha

Do you think Mamby could have beaten any of those boxers?
My point is while Mamby was a good pro I think he was a full level below the elite.And I don't mean any disrespect because boxers like Mamby are among my favorites-boxers- not blessed with blazing speed or numbing power-boxers that trained endlessly and learned there trade.Techincaly sound.

[Duodenum]

Brooks was way done before he met Mamby.True, he was. But it was still a superb performance by Saoul.
Mamby was a pros pro but is a little overrated.

When people talk about boxer's who had great jabs Mamby is never mentioned.Partly because he is overlooked but also because truthfully his jab wasn't anything to write home about.

Pernell Whitaker
Kostya Tsyzu
JC Chavez
Edwin Rosario
Aaron Pryor
Zab Judha

Do you think Mamby could have beaten any of those boxers?Certainly not Whitaker. I am insufficiently informed about Tsyzu and Judah to offer any kind of qualified opinion. (They both came along several years after I stopped following boxing.) Chavez had a body attack suitable for beating Mamby.

Because Rosario sometimes faded late (especially in the first Ramirez tussle), and Mamby had the chin, defensive skill, and 15 round experience, I believe Saoul could have decisioned Chapo over that distance, as Howard in fact came within seconds of doing so over a shorter 12 round span.

I would have loved to have seen Mamby and Pryor face off in a 15 round Jr WW title unification bout in 1981. Because Aaron was a wild and wide open headhunter, and both seemed impervious, I was sure it would be a distance contest with no knockdowns. Could Mamby have frustrated Pryor enough to gain a decision, or would the Hawk's swarming prevail over Sweet Saoul? It was my hope that the two of them might produce an undisputed championship for Arguello to challenge for. (At the time, I believed that Mamby had a better chance to decision Alexis than Pryor had of beating Arguello, especially considering what Vilomar Fernandez had been able to do to a peak Alexis.)My point is while Mamby was a good pro I think he was a full level below the elite.And I don't mean any disrespect because boxers like Mamby are among my favorites-boxers- not blessed with blazing speed or numbing power-boxers that trained endlessly and learned there trade.Techincaly sound.And the fact you have Mamby/DeJesus, and demonstrate familiarity with Saoul, makes the respect you have for him as well as other boxers of his ilk self-apparent. (Mamby has to be one of the most respected boxers of the last 35 years among those who know of him, especially fellow boxers. Hell, Ali and Holmes were two of his employers, Larry hiring on Saoul as his last trainer.) Mamby may indeed have been a full level below the elite, but like the Viruet boys and Vilomar at their best, he could certainly hang with them if at peak performance capacity.

What do you consider to be Howard's best wins? My money would be on Johnny Lira and Greg Coverson. Against the smart tough Lira, (who was actually training other boxers while competing himself) at altitude (in Stateline, Nevada), he boxed flatfooted to conserve energy, slipping WC Pug's shots in mid-ring, and countering with the hardest jab I remember him deploying from that anchored position he maintained with his legs. A flawlessy efficient performance.

[Cobra33]

I must say your knowledge of boxing is very impressive.

You know I thought Davis had an impressive performance against Meldrick Taylor.Termite Watkins was a pretty good performance as well by Davis.

You know your boxing and I would like your opinion on a couple of boxers who seem not to be apperciated by the masses.

Sumbu Kalambay-How would you rate his footwork and to whom would you compare his footwork to?Someone once told me his footwork reminded him of Walcott.

Michael Nunn(the early years)-BERFORE he won his 1rst title.I think he was almost unhittable when he fought in that safety first style.What is your opinin?I watched Nunn make alot of good pros seem like beginners.

[Duodenum]

I must say your knowledge of boxing is very impressive.

You know I thought Davis had an impressive performance against Meldrick Taylor.Termite Watkins was a pretty good performance as well by Davis.

You know your boxing and I would like your opinion on a couple of boxers who seem not to be apperciated by the masses.

Sumbu Kalambay-How would you rate his footwork and to whom would you compare his footwork to?Someone once told me his footwork reminded him of Walcott.

Michael Nunn(the early years)-BERFORE he won his 1rst title.I think he was almost unhittable when he fought in that safety first style.What is your opinin?I watched Nunn make alot of good pros seem like beginners.To be perfectly honest, my knowledge of Nunn and Kalambay is limited. However, I do agree that Kalambay's shifty type foot movement was indeed reminiscent of Jersey Joe's, although I don't think he was as good with his upper body movement, or at bending his knees to slip and counter when stationary.

Nunn certainly parlayed his combination of height and southpaw stance into a package which helped secure a great deal of early shutout wins.

The kayo loss Nunn sustained was frustrating for me on so many levels. Michael's boxing skills where clearly superior to Toney's at that stage of their careers, yet he succumbed to the result of a single hook (and Nunn was on the deck for ten full seconds after that first knockdown, but received the benefit of a slow count). Huh? How does a southpaw of Nunn's caliber get tagged out with a single hook to the head? (A cross down the pike, or even a hook to the body I could understand, but a hook to the head?)

While this was a terrific come from behind one punch kayo for Toney, I was kind of disgusted with the fatigue he displayed upon the match's conclusion. This wasn't a nearly 34 year old Ali following the end of 14 rounds at Manila, or a 28 year old Larry Holmes with one good arm dropping to the canvas with exhaustion after first dominating, and then slugging it out with Norton over a full 15 rounds, but a 22 year old kid supposedly in top condition for his first title match, who kayoed an opponent that was dominating him, with a single punch after just 10-1/2 rounds of action (hardly an extended epic performance), and HE was wiped out? (I figured then and there that Toney was no kind of 15 round fighter.)

I'm truly sorry for that outburst Cobra, but I really am a hard-core 15 round snob.

[Doc McCoy]

I have to say both you guys, Cobra33 & Duodenum, have made this an immensely interesting thread.

It's always great to expand on one's knowledge of so-called "second tier" fighters like Saoul Mamby, Howard Davis Jr.
Sumbu Kalambay definitely figures in this group - and while he never springs to my mind when contemplating great fighters or being in great fights when I find myself watching him I tend to study him more closely because there's a degree of subtlety to his skills that only comes through a constant honing of one's craft. He did a nice job on Mike McCallum in their first outing and how many boxers can say that of their career. Very slick operator was Sumbu.

How long have you been following the game Duodenum? Your comments are always insightful and full of interesting and relevant details that we don't normally come across on these boards.

[Drew101]

First, let me echo the sentiments of Doc McCoy Well done, sirs.

And, now, back to the orginal topic...

Mamby was tricky, teak-tough veteran, who was almost impossible to catch with anything flush, and who generally relied on stamina to take over in the later rounds of the fight. He didn't hit hard, but he could still wear you down and hurt you in the later stages of the fight (he still demonstrated this knack when he was well past his best- witness his upsets of Glenwood Brown and Larry Barnes).

Given that a fighter like Jim Watt (who was very similar to Mamby in terms of talent level, and, to an extant, in terms of in-ring approach) could outwork Davis over the fifteen round limit, methinks Mamby could do the same as well.
Davis could box beutifully, and would probably hold a lead going into the championship rounds, but Saoul would accelerate in the later rounds, possible score a late knockdown, and emerge with a clear decision.

[Duodenum]

I have to say both you guys, Cobra33 & Duodenum, have made this an immensely interesting thread.

It's always great to expand on one's knowledge of so-called "second tier" fighters like Saoul Mamby, Howard Davis Jr.
Sumbu Kalambay definitely figures in this group - and while he never springs to my mind when contemplating great fighters or being in great fights when I find myself watching him I tend to study him more closely because there's a degree of subtlety to his skills that only comes through a constant honing of one's craft. He did a nice job on Mike McCallum in their first outing and how many boxers can say that of their career. Very slick operator was Sumbu.

How long have you been following the game Duodenum? Your comments are always insightful and full of interesting and relevant details that we don't normally come across on these boards.Thanks for the compliments.

My paternal grandfather was a Golden Gloves boxer in the 1920's (well before my father was born, and my grandfather died about ten years before I came along, so I only know of him). While in his mid 30's my father was acquainted with a WW II Navy boxing champion who became a prominent newspaperman, and they became best friends, a relationship which ended with this former boxer's death in 2002. (Even when he was in his mid 50's, he could still pack a wallop. My father rigged up a stuffed burlap bag in the garage, and when this friend paid us a visit, he demonstrated his jab on that bag. A lighweight in his competitive days, he told us to multiply the power of his jab times four, and we'd know how hard his jab was during his Navy service. Several times, he did a simple falling step towards the bag, then this self-described cutie would explode out with a blurred corkscrew jab that rattled the entire garage we were in. Then we took turns trying to hold onto the bag as he shot his jabs out into it. The vibrations of the bag when he made impact pried our arms loose, no matter how hard we tried holding onto it, and we'd all go sprawling backwards to the floor, even my father, who stands six feet tall, and weighed over 220 pounds at the time. Quite an experience to remember.)

I came of age just as Ali was reviving boxing in the 1970's, and by virtue of my parents both being educators, and my father's best friend being a former amateur champion and newspaperman, I read a great deal about boxing. Another of my early interests was the history of photography, including motion picture history, and the evolution of movie making is closely intertwined with that of the Queensbury Rules era in boxing.

Like many others, I was then swept along by the confluence of Ali's second career, the cultural impact of Stallone's Rocky, and the unexpected success of the 1976 U.S. Olympic boxing squad. Being obsessive-compulsive, I followed boxing with a passionate interest, one easily fueled by the ubiquitous preponderance of free routine television coverage.

Perhaps not surprisingly I also messed around with boxing recreationally, as I suppose most everybody on this forum has. (There's just no substitute for the experience of putting on a pair of gloves and going at it, or learning to skip rope with the mouth clamped shut, so the jaw doesn't get broken if hit.)

As it turned out, I was merely a fair weather fan, one whose interest largely subsided after the first match between Larry Holmes and Mike Spinks, and then almost completely snuffed out by the abolition of the 15 round limit which separated the championship caliber boxers from the also-rans.

Despite my having lost interest in boxing over 20 years ago, I obviously retained what I'd already learned, a base of knowledge cultivated by comparisons of literary coverage of famous bouts with footage of those same events.

Today, internet services like youtube and myspace make many of these events readily accessible to a large population, but there is still a great deal that doesn't exist on-line, and some of that is what I've been sharing on this board.

My father was an elementary school principal for a few decades, and the husband of one of his teachers took up boxing when he was in his late 30's, and was very successful at it. (He was a cross country runner and also coached track at the school where he taught.) This teacher/boxer was a subscriber to Malcolm "Flash" Gordon's newsletter, and after he was finished reading them, he gave them to my father to pass along to me. That's what really exposed me to the seamy underbelly of contemporary boxing. ("Flash" had great respect for this teacher/boxer subscriber of his, and always installed him as a 3-1 favorite, after he stayed on his feet and went the distance with a world class opponent. That decision loss was that teacher/boxer's only career defeat, as he ended his competitive boxing days with a nice winning streak.)

I think I may have inadvertently fooled some people on this board into believing I'm better informed about boxing than I actually am. My true level of knowledge on the sport is most definitely limited, but I try to avoid discussing what I'm not sufficiently informed about (which is a great deal).

Sometimes, I have a tendency to conceptualize "outside the box," and express a perspective from an eccentric point of view, and maybe that's caught the attention of some folks. (I don't particularly like to draw attention to myself at this particular stage of my life, so the anonymity guaranteed by a nom de plume like Duo liberates me somewhat to espress myself more freely and outspokenly than I would choose to risk doing otherwise.

Because I've noticed the posts on ESB Classic to generally indicate intelligent, articulate, and well-informed thoughtful opinions and comments, I finally decided for the very first time to actually register and join an internet forum, and while abandoning my former stealthy lurking on-line, exchanging contributions and feedback has proved a rewarding experience. (I'm still stunned at reading earlier posts of mine here, and saying to myself, "Did I type that?" It's a little bit like being asked for an autograph when not used to it.)

[Cobra33]

You know what ?I rewatched Mamby-Watkins and slowplayed it alot and noticed alot of subtle things Mamby did that when watching at regular speed I truthully hadn't noticed.
Mamby put on a sneaky little body attack that at first appears just little slaps at Watkins body.Play in slow motion and you see he's targeting Watkins solarplexus -which doesn't require 1 to have to hit at full force.
He also had a cute little habit of turning Watkins where he wanted WHILE Mamby was punching.Thats slick.

[Duodenum]

You know what ?I rewatched Mamby-Watkins and slowplayed it alot and noticed alot of subtle things Mamby did that when watching at regular speed I truthully hadn't noticed.
Mamby put on a sneaky little body attack that at first appears just little slaps at Watkins body.Play in slow motion and you see he's targeting Watkins solarplexus -which doesn't require 1 to have to hit at full force.
He also had a cute little habit of turning Watkins where he wanted WHILE Mamby was punching.Thats slick.When the result of that match was reported, Mamby's superior handspeed on the inside was identified as the key factor in Saoul's win over Termite. I have often wondered what Mamby's career record might look like, if his matches where all judged by former boxers who could recognize the intricacies of his artistry.

Your astute observations reassure me that my distant memory of Saoul's craftsmanship may not be faulty after all.

Let me ask you this:

Would you have been able to discern these detailed nuances of Mamby's performance against Watkins (and others like it), if it had been recorded using hand cranked silent movie film technology from a hundred years ago, instead of the quality of reproduction you have available to review? (What might this slow-motion scrutiny suggest to you about what Jack Johnson or Jack Dempsey were actually doing in the ring?)

[Mantequilla]

Sanderline Williams was similar to Mamby as well.

Not top level, but very crafty and rarerly ever dominated.

[Doc McCoy]

Stellar stuff Duo. I might enquire of your literary pedigree also but that might be gilding the lily a bit too much.

The classic forum seems to have dropped off in quality a bit lately but they were saying that when I first joined so maybe there's a revival at hand. . . or maybe it's just me who's become a bit jaded.

Either way I respect your opinions and enjoy reading your welcome contributions.

Check your PM's when you get the chance.

[Duodenum]

Stellar stuff Duo. I might enquire of your literary pedigree also but that might be gilding the lily a bit too much.

The classic forum seems to have dropped off in quality a bit lately but they were saying that when I first joined so maybe there's a revival at hand. . . or maybe it's just me who's become a bit jaded.

Either way I respect your opinions and enjoy reading your welcome contributions.

Check your PM's when you get the chance.I flunked English over four times in high school, and barely graduated. However, there can be a substantial difference between formal schooling and self-education, and I've found the latter to be far more informative. In real life, I've been a blue collar stiff working menial jobs. (Then again, Eric Hoffer was a longshoreman.)

[Cobra33]

Duodenum-Believe me your knowledge of boxing is no way limited.I enjoyed reading your posts.In my opinion you and John Garfield are the best posters at ESB.I learn something almost everytime I read one of your posts.

[Duodenum]

Duodenum-Believe me your knowledge of boxing is no way limited.I enjoyed reading your posts.In my opinion you and John Garfield are the best posters at ESB.I learn something almost everytime I read one of your posts.Thank for the sentiment, but John Garfield really is in a class totally by himself. He's actually experienced what so many of us can only post about. Frankly, I'm in awe of the guy, and would defer to him on any differences of opinion between us.