Jack Dempsey Vs Joe Louis

[RAMPAGE0017]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I'm curious.. how does a fight between these two play out?

[McGrain]

It plays out something like this: Dempsey comes straight to Louis, meeting him in the centre of the ring with only a small measure of caution; Louis finishes the job that no-one ever started on Dempsey in round two.

[janitor]

I would not care to bet a lot of money on this fight. We are matching the two best finishers in heavyweight history bar none and both of them are going to be operating right in the danger zone.

I lean towards Louis simply because he will probably be able to force Dempsey onto the front foot and make him walk into the firzone first.

A well placed combination from Dempsey could turn the tide at any point however.

[DaveTheWave]

I agree with McGrain. Louis chops him down with those short counters to body and head. Although Louis could get caught, and for that matter against Dempsey, could get hurt, I see Dempsey bobbing or moving right smack into something. After taking a short count in round two, Louis lands a three-bomb combination that is the beginning of the end of Dempsey. Dempsey is up, but Louis finishes him in five. (I had a vision)

[McGrain]

I would not care to bet a lot of money on this fight. We are matching the two best finishers in heavyweight history bar none .

I always feel like Tyson is better at putting away his man than either of these two - do you have Tyson at three, or just out of this class?

A well placed combination from Dempsey could turn the tide at any point however.

The way I see it; Dempsey is more likely to miss. Louis will not miss a man who has just missed.

[janitor]

[quote=McGrain]I always feel like Tyson is better at putting away his man than either of these two - do you have Tyson at three, or just out of this class?


1. Louis
2. Dempsey
3. Tyson
4. The rest


The way I see it; Dempsey is more likely to miss. Louis will not miss a man who has just missed.


I don't think that Dempsey was as prone to missing as some people think though the point is taken.

In practice Dempsey will want to make the range of exchange something of the order of 12 inches and if he can then Louis could be in trouble.

[McGrain]

[quote]
In practice Dempsey will want to make the range of exchange something of the order of 12 inches and if he can then Louis could be in trouble.

How so? Louis has the most perfectly executed uppercut i've seen of anyone of that weight and he could create an inch with the best of them - turn of the hip and BANG!

I know this is a description given regardless of what murderous Demspey is doing at that time, just to point out that Louis has at least one very serious option at that type of range.

[mcvey]

I'm sure this has been brought up before, but I'm curious.. how does a fight between these two play out?
Most of Joes opponents knew exactly what power he carried in his gloves and fought accordingly ,Dempsey wouldnt allow Louis to dictate things he would be on Joe throwing bombs ,I see Dempsey taking Louis out in 2 rds ,though Louis was probably the more complete fighter.

[janitor]

[quote=janitor]

How so? Louis has the most perfectly executed uppercut i've seen of anyone of that weight and he could create an inch with the best of them - turn of the hip and BANG!

I know this is a description given regardless of what murderous Demspey is doing at that time, just to point out that Louis has at least one very serious option at that type of range.

Sure.

Dempsey was perhaps more comfortable thowing punches at this range though Louis was also verry adept.

Once it comes down to this kind of scenario the outcome is a toss up but Dempseys better chin might make the diference.

[robert ungurean]

Dempsey Ko's the slower moveing Louis.

[Ted Stickles]

If Louis survives Jacks intial violent assault ,louis would then pick him apart and stop him anywhere between the 6 and 10th

[Robbi]

Joseph Louis Barrow TKO6

[Street Lethal]

Joe Louis wins this fight. Dempsey is tough and his speed would bother Louis. But Louis punches so hard and his punches are so accurate that he would catch Dempsey sooner or later. Dempsey was a good defensive fighter, but not good enough to avoid Louis for long.

[Duodenum]

Nat Fleischer was a skilled experienced observer of world class boxers for well over a decade by the time of Dempsey/Willard, and he was also at ringside for Joe Louis's peak performance against Max Baer, as well as all the title fights with both champions. Interestingly, Fleischer rated Dempsey's handspeed in Toledo as slightly superior to Louis's against Maxie, an opinion he held to when reviewing films of these events.

This is a critical contention, because it's been generally assumed that Louis had the superior handspeed, when in actuality, it was Joe's trait of usually pitching shorter punches with greater economy of motion which gave him the illusion of superior handspeed.

Dempsey showed against Carpentier that opponents with superior handspeed didn't particularly trouble Jack during his prime. The same was not true for Louis, as anybody who's viewed the complete footage of Louis/Conn I can attest.

By Joe's own admission, he didn't like to be crowded. Dempsey was far more active with his upper body movement than Godoy was. Boxers who had been hit hard by both usually gave Dempsey the clear edge in firepower. In private, Jack Blackburn confided that Jack Johnson would have beaten Louis, "because Johnson was a mover." Peak Dempsey kept his knees bent, while bouncing laterally on the balls of his feet, or darting quickly, in and out. At his peak, there was nothing wrong with Jack's accuracy either. It's something of a myth, that he always threw punches at random, never aiming for a specific target. His hands could certainly withstand the stress of striking an opponent anywhere on his body though.

When Tommy Gibbons was asked shortly after losing his title challenge if Dempsey hit hard, Tommy didn't say a word. He simply took off the hat he was wearing, so the questioner could see all the lumps, bumps, and bruises, all over the top of Tommy's head. 17 years later, when Joe was preparing for his rematch with Godoy, Blackburn was describing the strategy of slowly retreating and sliding left and right to hammer away at the sides of Arturo's head and body that Louis would execute in their rematch, but, "Not to the top of the head, because that's too hard." Not for Dempsey, it wasn't, as Gibbons painfully discovered.

Toledo Jack had the edge in handspeed, punching power, footspeed, mobility, balance (continually shifting his weight from foot to foot), and ring intelligence and adaptability as well. While Louis and Blackburn couldn't figure out Godoy during their first match, Dempsey adjusted to the reality of an unexpectedly difficult title challenge from Brennan, and easily shifted from killer mode to distance decision gear when Gibbons stood up to Jack's Sunday Punch early on.

If Louis entered into the sort of slugfest with Dempsey that Max Baer initiated in the first round of his match with Joe, Jack would not freak out if Louis took his best shot, nor would he back down as Maxie did. If hurt, Jack was far more dangerous than Joe was. (It might bear mentioning that Dempsey was Baer's chief second against Louis. After escorting Maxie back to his corner from ring center after the bell rang, to "save" Baer from a kayo after he waved to the crowd from the ring floor, he told Jack he didn't want to go out again. Dempsey snarled at Max, "Do you want him to knock you out, or do you want ME to do it? I think it's very telling that, in the middle of Louis's peak physical performance, Baer was more afraid of Dempsey than he was of Joe.)

Technically, Louis may have been the most fundamentally sound of all the heavyweight champions, but in Dempsey, Joe wouldn't be facing a textbook, but one of the sport's innovators. While Joe was part Cherokee, and Jack part Choctaw, Dempsey was the one who fought more like a savage.

Finally, in the third bout after Louis's peak performance, a past prime Max Schmeling dropped 22 year old Joe for the count, and then some, a situation that never happened to Dempsey in competition. (The first Flynn encounter has been documented as a staged performance with a pre-planned outcome, not a competitive match.) Regardless of how poorly Louis prepared for the first Schmeling fight, the fact remains that Joe was 22 years old, and at the peak of his athletic ability, yet still went down and out.

In recent decades, some boxing experts have suggested that Alexis Arguello was the closest performer to Joe Louis that boxing has produced since the Bomber's heyday. Some of these same astute observers have earmarked Roberto Duran as the closest fighter to Jack Dempsey that the sport was seen in recent decades.

On another thread a while back, I picked Duran over Arguello (as did most of the others who responded to that thread). Remaining consistent, I will also pick Dempsey over Louis, even if the match goes to a 15 round distance. I just don't see Louis avoiding at least one trip, and maybe more to the ring surface. Galento came off the deck to floor Louis with a smashing hook, and Dempsey had a far more lethal hook than Two-Ton did. In setting up the Long Count knockdown, a shot version of Dempsey stunned Tunney with a counter right over Gene's jab, which presaged the rights Schmeling pummeled Louis with nine years later. Max Baer proved that the faster, braver, and tougher predatory Dempsey of Toledo wouldn't have great difficulty landing his hooks and crosses on the peak version of Louis. Jimmy Braddock demonstrated in flooring Joe, that the monstrous uppercut off the ropes which Dempsey dispatched Firpo with would have also flattened Louis. Manassa Mauler over Brown Bomber.

Dempsey KO 14 Louis

[DaveTheWave]

Duodenum: i like the insight. Also I can see the fight going that way as well- Louis' chin didn't hold up that well, so anyone that can crack has a chance.

[RAMPAGE0017]

I'm digging a lot of the observations.. I myself still cannot decide on an outcome to this one.

[JIm Broughton]

Christ! this is a tough one to call. The one thing I will say with confidence is this, this fight does not go the distance! Both men punched with power, enough to take the other one out. I think what decides this fireworks display is the chin. The question that remains then is this...who had the better chin? When you look at it this way then the answer is Dempsey. Joe was stopped by Schmeling, decked by Galento, hurt by Mauriello and Baer(Buddy) and dropped several times by Walcott. Now if those men could either stop or drop Louis, what do you think Dempsey could do to him? Both had equal firepower but Dempsey had an iron chin compared to Louis's wooden one. Case closed.

[ripcity]

Funny thing I had a dreem that I was watching Dempsey and Louis fight. Louis won by knock out but I don't rember what round. Dempsey tid get some good shots in. The most lasting image that sticks out was a physcialy beat, victorious Louis resting on the ropes with a blood around his eye.
If my dream is any indaction Joe Louis would ko Jack Dempsey in a very exciting and fan frendly fight:bbb

[ChrisPontius]

Finally, in the third bout after Louis's peak performance, a past prime Max Schmeling dropped 22 year old Joe for the count, and then some, a situation that never happened to Dempsey in competition. (The first Flynn encounter has been documented as a staged performance with a pre-planned outcome, not a competitive match.)

Where has Dempsey-Flynn I been documented as a staged performance?
I've seen some indications but never clear evidence.
It sounds to me like Dempsey gets a free pass here for what may well be an early KO loss, just like he seems to get a free pass for being "pushed" out of the ring, where he should have been disqualified.

[Bummy Davis]

I favor Louis as the most complete fighter and the better combo puncher but Dempsey had the power to hurt you at any time, I have to say Joe by late stop or UD but there will a few scares for Joe and I dont discount a shootout with both men down and worn by the 8th 9th round

[Street Lethal]

It wouldn't go well for Dempsey. Louis is too fast and powerful.

[robert ungurean]

It wouldn't go well for Dempsey. Louis is too fast and powerful.
I dont believe Louie to be either faster or more powerful than Dempsey.
Dempsey moved like a big cat to Joe's slower moveing shuffle. Strength wise I see Jack being the stronger of the two.

[hobgoblin]

Dempsey Ko's the slower moveing Louis.

I see what you're saying - but the real question is can Louis' handspeed & reflexes deal with a fast Dempsey who is rushing in? I think he can. Maybe Dempsey can get inside with his speed & avoid a Louis' straight right, crowd him, and do damage - but I wouldn't put money on it.

[Duodenum]

Where has Dempsey-Flynn I been documented as a staged performance?
I've seen some indications but never clear evidence.
It sounds to me like Dempsey gets a free pass here for what may well be an early KO loss, just like he seems to get a free pass for being "pushed" out of the ring, where he should have been disqualified.At Dempsey's 1920 draft evasion trial, courtroom testimony was given and accepted under oath that Dempsey's camp accepted $500.00 to throw the first encounter with Flynn. That it was a fixed outcome was openly expressed by reporters present at the time, and Dempsey's ex-wife Maxine was the primary witness at his draft evasion trial to confirm this. The fix was in, just as Jake LaMotta testified before the United States Congress that the fix was in for him against Billy Fox.

Staged performances are part and parcel of boxing lore, but the difference in Flynn/Dempsey I, and LaMotta/Fox, is legally binding testimony under oath.

[ChrisPontius]

Why did they come to the subject of that fight at the Draft evasion trial?

And the difference between LaMotta-Fox and Dempsey-Flynn is that LaMotta never made a mystery about it; he admitted the dive.
As far as i know, Dempsey always denied it. If it was already settled in court, why should he deny it? I don't know how much stock to put in the ex-wife's opinion, either. I've seen ex-wives claim things much further from the truth when it comes to their husband, combined to a courtroom.

[Mendoza]

Both men have fast hands and a lot of power. After watching all of their films, I do believe Dempsey had far better footwork, and defense. I also think JD had a slightly better chin, and was the better and more damaging clinch fighter. Dempsey worked his man over something fierce in the clinches, and wasn’t opposed to bending the rules. Louis looked lost in clinches, and could be bulled into the ropes. Louis said his weakness was men who crowded him. Dempsey put the pressure on his opponents.

Louis could be devastating too, but his stance and attack patterns were somewhat methodical. Louis was very average in clinch type fighting, and slow to change tactics. I’d pick Dempsey via early to mid round TKO with my reason being Louis low guard and workman like shuffling feet would cost him big time as Dempsey gets the angles and unloads. So I like Dempsey on styles, but Louis has great chance to win too. Louis was great at catching guys on their way in.

My $.02

[Duodenum]

Why did they come to the subject of that fight at the Draft evasion trial?

And the difference between LaMotta-Fox and Dempsey-Flynn is that LaMotta never made a mystery about it; he admitted the dive.
As far as i know, Dempsey always denied it. If it was already settled in court, why should he deny it? I don't know how much stock to put in the ex-wife's opinion, either. I've seen ex-wives claim things much further from the truth when it comes to their husband, combined to a courtroom.I'd be curious to read the transcript of the courtroom testimony myself. The next time I'm at my local college library, I will comb the newspaper microfilm from 1920 to see if I can uncover anything concerning this. However, he was acquitted of draft evasion charges by being able to prove that he was the sole source of support for his large family in Colorado during World War I, which precluded his eligibility for conscription. If his brother Bernie had accepted $500.00 to throw in the towel against Flynn, that would certainly be an indicator of dire financial need.

At the same time, Maxine Cates was going through a bitter and very public divorce proceeding with Dempsey, and it may have been in that process that such sordid details of his years as a hobo and activities during the war came to light.

I have read that Dempsey took the dive after Flynn pushed his guard down with his right, and swung his left to knock Dempsey down, with Jack remaining on his back for 20 seconds. I have also read that Dempsey's brother Bernie threw in the towel after Dempsey had fallen down three times.

Well in any event, it was the one and only time in the 38 year old Flynn's 25 year, 116 match career that he was ever credited with a one round victory, and Dempsey's 19th and final match in Utah, after which he was banned from boxing by the authorities in that state for the remainder of his career. It was also Flynn's sixth and final match in Utah.

The following year, when they met again in Illinois, Dempsey dropped Flynn one minute into the match for a clean kayo win. There is readily available footage of Flynn against both Sam Langford and Jack Johnson. Does he look impressive enough to have legitimately destroyed Dempsey with a single punch in a single round? How does a 38 year old boxer, who has lost his previous two matches by early kayo, won only seven of his previous 30 matches dating back five years, and retires with a record of 46W+49L+20D, with 21 of his losses coming by knockout, wipe out the greatest first round knockout artist in HW championship history with a single punch for the only one round kayo win of his career?

As for Dempsey always denying that he took a dive, it must also be remembered that in his autobiography, he asserted specifically that it was his left hook to the head, and not his right hand below the beltline, which knocked out Jack Sharkey. But in the footage of that action, we see Sharkey's knees have buckled, and that he's already on the way down as he looks helplessly to the referee to rule a foul, then immediately clutches for his groin after he lands on the deck, face down. It was clearly Dempsey's body blow which paralyzed Sharkey so badly that he couldn't get up. For Dempsey to insist explicitly that his glancing hook to Sharkey's face was the knockout punch leads me to declare that, "the winner doth protests too much, methinks." In court, he referred to his first encounter with Fireman as "the Flynn affair."

Courtroom transcripts aside, how can a rationally logical case possibly be made that Flynn might have defeated Dempsey so quickly and easily in a competitive contest? What warped and twisted reasoning could possibly be employed to arrive at that conclusion? It defies good sense. (I won't say "common sense," because good sense isn't necessarily common.)

[janitor]

This is not the kind of fight that you wan't to bet a lot of money on.

Louis and Dempsey are the two most efficacious punchers that the heavyweight division has ever produced. They also both have a similar reach and are at home on the inside and outside. This means that neither man will be able to do his work outside of the others optimum punching zone.

I will pick Louis on the basis that he will be looking to catch Dempsey coming in and will probably be able to keep him on the front foot. To be honest though anything could happen.

[Raging B(_)LL]

I have always believed that in matchup between two deadly punchers the one with the better chin wins it somewhere down the line. Dempsey had the better chin in my opinion, and was probably the harder hitter of the two as well. I have never seen a shorter, deadlier hook to the face than the one Jack nailed Sharkey with in his one careless moment against Dempsey.

Now Joe had great, short handspeed, and was deadly accurate with his counters, but Dempsey`s bob n` weave and own punching power and accuracy would be something that Louis had never seen before. I firmly believe that Jack will take Joe`s best punches better than the other way around. Dempsey is faster from more angles and had the better mobility by far.

He has too much offensive power and diversity as well as one hell of a hard punch for Louis to just take, get back up and win by KO. I think Dempsey`s better chin, mobility, defence and footwork will see him beating Louis. Joe`s lack of footwork and methodical approach, and the fact I think he is easier to hit than Jack will see him get tagged clean, hard and very often for an early KO, say sometime before the 5th.

But what a fight while it lasts!!

[C. M. Clay II]

Why is everyone saying that Dempsey had a better defense than Louis? He held his hands lower, and bobbing and weaving will get you caught sooner or later. Also people keep talking about Louis' suceptibility to a right hand, but what about Dempsey? He was more vulverable to a right smash than Louis was. Watch the Carpentier fight when Dempsey was at his peak. Georges cracked him with that right many times. Louis has the faster hands and more power. Louis has about 15-20 lbs on Dempsey as well, so Louis has to be considered here. Dempsey does have the better chin, but Joe also has the tighter defense, and also the stylistic advantage, so Dempsey is going to get hit more than Louis. Jack's footspeed is better, but Dempsey is not going to fight on the back foot here. He will be there to be hit, so footspeed is basically a non-factor. Louis also has waaaaaaaaay better stamina and can fight 20 rounds if he wanted to. The Manassa Mauler is one of my favorite fighters, but sooner or later, Dempsey will crumble from precision punching, and fatigue.

Joe Louis KO 5 Jack Dempsey:good

[OLD FOGEY]

At Dempsey's 1920 draft evasion trial, courtroom testimony was given and accepted under oath that Dempsey's camp accepted $500.00 to throw the first encounter with Flynn. That it was a fixed outcome was openly expressed by reporters present at the time, and Dempsey's ex-wife Maxine was the primary witness at his draft evasion trial to confirm this. The fix was in, just as Jake LaMotta testified before the United States Congress that the fix was in for him against Billy Fox.

Staged performances are part and parcel of boxing lore, but the difference in Flynn/Dempsey I, and LaMotta/Fox, is legally binding testimony under oath.

I don't know if the Flynn fight was fixed or not, but you may be the only person in the world who acccepts Maxine as a reliable witness. Even Roger Kahn doubted her and Dempsey always denied it.

And do you accept everything else Maxine testified to at that trial?

[Duodenum]

I don't know if the Flynn fight was fixed or not, but you may be the only person in the world who acccepts Maxine as a reliable witness. Even Roger Kahn doubted her and Dempsey always denied it.

And do you accept everything else Maxine testified to at that trial?Just because Cates said it doesn't mean it was false. And the way the first encounter with Flynn unfolded flies completely in the face of the career patterns of both Flynn and Dempsey. Does anybody on this board truly believe that a 38 year old boxer with no other first round wins on his record legitimately took out the fastest starting HW champion in history? And just how many times have opponents exchanged one round kayoes in genuine competitive situations, as opposed to rigged outcomes? (Let alone in the span of one year's time.)

[Unforgiven]

Just because Cates said it doesn't mean it was false. And the way the first encounter with Flynn unfolded flies completely in the face of the career patterns of both Flynn and Dempsey. Does anybody on this board truly believe that a 38 year old boxer with no other first round wins on his record legitimately took out the fastest starting HW champion in history? And just how many times have opponents exchanged one round kayoes in genuine competitive situations, as opposed to rigged outcomes? (Let alone in the span of one year's time.)

There are two possible explanations :

1. Dempsey was sick, injured, of for some other reason far below even the Dempsey who went 10 hard rounds with Andre Anderson & J.L.Johnson the previous year in N.Y. as a malnourished novice, let alone the real Dempsey we know of (c.1919).

OR

2. The outcome was fixed.


I've seen Fireman Jim Flynn.
And I've read many accounts of how even the youngest rawest skinniest version of Dempsey could take a beating and keep coming.

It is hard to imagine Flynn beating anyone tough by first round KO.
I know fighters can be 'caught cold' but this is a peculiar result to say the least.

[Duodenum]

There are two possible explanations :

1. Dempsey was sick, injured, of for some other reason far below even the Dempsey who went 10 hard rounds with Andre Anderson & J.L.Johnson the previous year in N.Y. as a malnourished novice, let alone the real Dempsey we know of (c.1919).

OR

2. The outcome was fixed.


I've seen Fireman Jim Flynn.
And I've read many accounts of how even the youngest rawest skinniest version of Dempsey could take a beating and keep coming.

It is hard to imagine Flynn beating anyone tough by first round KO.
I know fighters can be 'caught cold' but this is a peculiar result to say the least.Indeed. Dempsey was frequently in desperate need of money at this stage of his career, and had to scrounge up an income working a variety of odd and menial jobs. A couple of days before what he evidently termed in court as "the Flynn affair," Jack reportedly got his right hand smashed by a ball while working at a bowling alley setting up pins. As a result, he couldn't make a fist, and could barely get his hand into a glove. While such an injury would not explain his sudden inability to take a punch, it might have made it far more tempting for Dempsey's camp to accept a payoff in order to lay down. (Of course he could easily take out Flynn with his left alone, but $500.00 was probably far better money than he stood to make in a competitive win.)

The bowling pin injury makes sense. As financially strapped as Jack was at the time, he was out of the ring for five weeks after the Flynn fiasco. When he did return to action, it was in Oakland CA, a location well removed from the site of the fix. He failed to score a kayo in his next four matches (all four rounders), losing to Meehan for his first legitimate career defeat, and drawing twice with somebody using the name Al Norton, before finally returning to the win column with his first rematch against Willie. (Then he returned to a truer form by dispatching Norton in one.) It may well be that his inability to work his right in training reduced his effectiveness in the ring until it healed fully.

That injury may also be the genesis of his left hook's greater effectiveness. Mickey Walker also developed a tremendous hook after his right got busted, and Holmes cultivated his jab while recovering from a broken right hand in the second round against rugged 6'5" 240 pound Tiger Williams. (Anybody who thinks Lennox and the Klitschko's might have been too big for Larry could do well to consider how Holmes was able to beat Roy Williams with one good hand.)

It does bear reminding that Jack's brother Bernie was his chief second at the time of the Flynn fix, and that nothing resembling this outcome transpired against Dempsey after he came under the patronage of the astute Kearns and Rickard.

[Executioner]

Dempsey by KO. Same type of speed, bone crunching power and faster / better footwork.

[OLD FOGEY]

I'd be curious to read the transcript of the courtroom testimony myself. The next time I'm at my local college library, I will comb the newspaper microfilm from 1920 to see if I can uncover anything concerning this. However, he was acquitted of draft evasion charges by being able to prove that he was the sole source of support for his large family in Colorado during World War I, which precluded his eligibility for conscription. If his brother Bernie had accepted $500.00 to throw in the towel against Flynn, that would certainly be an indicator of dire financial need.

At the same time, Maxine Cates was going through a bitter and very public divorce proceeding with Dempsey, and it may have been in that process that such sordid details of his years as a hobo and activities during the war came to light.

I have read that Dempsey took the dive after Flynn pushed his guard down with his right, and swung his left to knock Dempsey down, with Jack remaining on his back for 20 seconds. I have also read that Dempsey's brother Bernie threw in the towel after Dempsey had fallen down three times.

Well in any event, it was the one and only time in the 38 year old Flynn's 25 year, 116 match career that he was ever credited with a one round victory, and Dempsey's 19th and final match in Utah, after which he was banned from boxing by the authorities in that state for the remainder of his career. It was also Flynn's sixth and final match in Utah.

The following year, when they met again in Illinois, Dempsey dropped Flynn one minute into the match for a clean kayo win. There is readily available footage of Flynn against both Sam Langford and Jack Johnson. Does he look impressive enough to have legitimately destroyed Dempsey with a single punch in a single round? How does a 38 year old boxer, who has lost his previous two matches by early kayo, won only seven of his previous 30 matches dating back five years, and retires with a record of 46W+49L+20D, with 21 of his losses coming by knockout, wipe out the greatest first round knockout artist in HW championship history with a single punch for the only one round kayo win of his career?

As for Dempsey always denying that he took a dive, it must also be remembered that in his autobiography, he asserted specifically that it was his left hook to the head, and not his right hand below the beltline, which knocked out Jack Sharkey. But in the footage of that action, we see Sharkey's knees have buckled, and that he's already on the way down as he looks helplessly to the referee to rule a foul, then immediately clutches for his groin after he lands on the deck, face down. It was clearly Dempsey's body blow which paralyzed Sharkey so badly that he couldn't get up. For Dempsey to insist explicitly that his glancing hook to Sharkey's face was the knockout punch leads me to declare that, "the winner doth protests too much, methinks." In court, he referred to his first encounter with Fireman as "the Flynn affair."

Courtroom transcripts aside, how can a rationally logical case possibly be made that Flynn might have defeated Dempsey so quickly and easily in a competitive contest? What warped and twisted reasoning could possibly be employed to arrive at that conclusion? It defies good sense. (I won't say "common sense," because good sense isn't necessarily common.)

I do think it is possible to make a "rationally logical" case that it could have been a legitimate knockout:
1. Strange things happen--Joe Shugrue scored only 16 knockouts in 88 fights, but knocked out Hall-of-Famers Benny Leonard and Owen Moran.
2. Was Flynn so bad?--Flynn was 37 and on a losing skid, but he was still fighting the best in the world while Dempsey had fought only one fringe contender, John Lester Johnson. Over the years Flynn had been in with Johnson, Burns, Langford, Smith, Dillon, and other top men. He had knockouts over George Gardner, Bill Squires, Al Kaufman, and Charley Miller, a champion and good contenders. He certainly represented a step up in competition for Dempsey and had been at least a fairly dangerous puncher.
3. And Dempsey--Two years earlier Dempsey had been knocked down nine times by Johnny Sudenberg, a middleweight with a very poor record over all. Flynn was bigger, and, off the record, a much better puncher than Sudenberg. Dempsey had come up through remote mining and cow towns, but romanticism aside, his opponents there were probably not of the calibre he would have met in New York or Philadelphia.
4. Dempsey's story--The strongest arguement. Dempsey said in his autobiography that Flynn caught him with a sneak punch and stood behind him to keep knocking him down until Bernie panicked and threw in the towel. This is certainly a plausible story and I doubt Dempsey made it up out of whole cloth. The AP did carry the story that Dempsey was down and out for twenty seconds but I doubt an AP correspondent was present at ringside in Murray, Utah, for a fight between a past it contender and an obscure prospect. Who knows where this version came from?
5. There was a stink and Dempsey was banned, but he did return to fight a series of exhibitions in Utah in 1931 and later refereed there, including the Charles-Layne fight. People must have had short memories.
6. I might ask, if it were fixed, why did Dempsey make it look so obvious by going down right away? Do you see him as that cynical, willing to shaft the betters who supported him so openly and then lie about it over the years, even fabricating a phony story in his autobiography while trashing his dead wife.
I just don't see Dempsey as being that sort of low-life.
7. On the Sharkey fight. I owned a 8mm version of this fight back in the sixties and so had seen it. When I went to the theatre for Ali-Frazier I, they warmed the crowd up with a film of spectacular knockouts from the past, strung together, with no names given. When this KO flashed up, I doubt if most could have known it was Dempsey, but no
other punch shown, and they showed Louis, Robinson, Marciano, Zale, Williams, and tons of others, produced a bigger reaction than the awed roar that arose when that left swung up to turn Sharkey's face into a gargoyle, clearly visible in slow-motion and blown up to gargantuan size on the big screen. To call that punch glancing is nuts.

[baddest]

Greater big man beats greater little man. Joe Louis catches Dempsey coming in early. Louis KO 5

[janitor]

Greater big man beats greater little man. Joe Louis catches Dempsey coming in early. Louis KO 5

There is about 10lbs seperating them at their peaks.

Hardly a game deciding difference.

[combatesdeboxeo]

it wouldn't go well for dempsey. louis is too fast and powerful.

i hope you are talking on his hand speed, because his feet work was = shit, he had a fucking slow legs. Dempsey had better chin, much faster legs, more aggressive and i can argue he was harder puncher.

[Rock0052]

I like Dempsey in this one, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me if Louis pulled it out. It'd be a fantastic fight, though.

[Cael]

Why is everyone saying that Dempsey had a better defense than Louis? He held his hands lower, and bobbing and weaving will get you caught sooner or later. Also people keep talking about Louis' suceptibility to a right hand, but what about Dempsey? He was more vulverable to a right smash than Louis was. Watch the Carpentier fight when Dempsey was at his peak. Georges cracked him with that right many times. Louis has the faster hands and more power. Louis has about 15-20 lbs on Dempsey as well, so Louis has to be considered here. Dempsey does have the better chin, but Joe also has the tighter defense, and also the stylistic advantage, so Dempsey is going to get hit more than Louis. Jack's footspeed is better, but Dempsey is not going to fight on the back foot here. He will be there to be hit, so footspeed is basically a non-factor. Louis also has waaaaaaaaay better stamina and can fight 20 rounds if he wanted to. The Manassa Mauler is one of my favorite fighters, but sooner or later, Dempsey will crumble from precision punching, and fatigue.

Joe Louis KO 5 Jack Dempsey:good


William Harrison Dempsey would pimp slap you for sporting a picture with him and posting up that BS.

peak vs. peak they were barely 10lbs apart.

I am positive that Dempsey could take Louis best shot better then Louis could take a left hook from hell; toe to toe, in an all out brawl, i don't see Louis last.
And also i rate Dempsey as a much better inside fighter, although Joe was great himself.

Just like in Willard fight, i see Dempsey staying out of the range, stalking a much slower Louis, and waiting to slip one of his punches just to get inside Joe and batter him up with devastating body punches.


Louis also has waaaaaaaaay better stamina and can fight 20 rounds if he wanted to.I think you got it the other way around; anyway stamina won't be a deciding factor, because this fight won't go the full distance.

Dempsey by KO inside of 6; and Nat Fleischer agrees.;)

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[reznick]

It's a MUCH better match-up than the common: Prime Louis vs Marciano


Louis was bothered by good pressure fighters. Dempsey is one of the greatest pressure fighters of all time. It would really be a tough one to call. I dont think Dempsey had ever been out cold, Louis has.

Louis in my opinio would have to pull one of his common late fight knockout miracles like he did to walcott, because if it went to decision, I see Dempsey taking it.

[reznick]

i hope you are talking on his hand speed, because his feet work was = shit, he had a fucking slow legs. Dempsey had better chin, much faster legs, more aggressive and i can argue he was harder puncher.


Louis had pretty decent footwork, that is commonly ovrlooked because he didnt move around the ring really fast. He just used timing instead of speed. Next time you watch him box, watch how he uses his feet to get in the best position for a counter. Watch how he uses "hops".


Fast forward to 9:30
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And tell me that wasnt excellent footwork and ring generalship to get Braddock off of him so he could continue his onslaught. Look how he hops back away from Braddocks clinch. You have to be an incredible athlete to pull that off and still throw power punches.


When comparing Louis to Ali, yes his ring generalship was not good. But when comparing to the average ATG, its really not bad at all. Footwork is more complex of an attribute than just being able to get around the ring quickly.

[Swarmer]

It's a MUCH better match-up than the common: Prime Louis vs Marciano


Louis was bothered by good pressure fighters. Dempsey is one of the greatest pressure fighters of all time. It would really be a tough one to call. I dont think Dempsey had ever been out cold, Louis has.

Louis in my opinio would have to pull one of his common late fight knockout miracles like he did to walcott, because if it went to decision, I see Dempsey taking it.

That depends on whether you thnk Flynn I was a fix or not. I do. I personally think that if the fight lasts longer than 5 Louis would probably take it. Sometimes he was slow to start, but I'm not sure if he would versus Dempsey.

The Louis of the Baer fight versus the Willard or Levinski Manassa Jack would be something pretty epic to behold, i think.


Edit: I really don't understand why people think Louis has shitty footwork. Is being completely balanced while applying subtle pressure a bad thing now? I guess Arguello's footwork sucks too. If you ask me his generalship is equal to Ali's. He's great at getting a guy to do exactly what he wants without using up excessive energy.

[gentleman jim]

Dempsey always said "The sooner the safer" when it came to fighting whether in the ring or the street and I believe he would use this philosophy against Louis as well. This fight does not go the distance let alone 5 rounds. Too much firepower in both men for this to be a boxing match. This is a cobra vs mongoose scenario and the outcome could go either way. If I was betting my life savings I'd pick Dempsey in a 1st or 2nd round ko but I'd have my heart in my mouth the whole time. Jack has to get rid of Joe early before Joe can time Dempsey's bobbing and weaving and plant a powerful right on Dempsey's jaw thus setting up more bad medicine. Can Jack do it? I think so. I think Dempsey gets there first as this is his preferred method and his best chance against Louis. It's not a certainty of course but just my opinion.

[Muchmoore]

Hard for me to imagine Louis getting blown out early. The guy could be temporarily hurt or stunned but he was never ever in trouble like Dempsey was against Firpo/Flynn early in the fight.

Putting money down for this fight wouldn't be smart but I'd go with Louis.

The more movement and angles Dempsey gives Joe the better his chances are. Wading straight in which for some reason people think Louis is vulnerable to would be the end for him.

[Boilermaker]

Dempsey KO 1 wasnt a totally out of the question according to several who saw them both in action.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Pachilles]

There are two possible explanations :

1. Dempsey was sick, injured, of for some other reason far below even the Dempsey who went 10 hard rounds with Andre Anderson & J.L.Johnson the previous year in N.Y. as a malnourished novice, let alone the real Dempsey we know of (c.1919).

OR

2. The outcome was fixed.


I've seen Fireman Jim Flynn.
And I've read many accounts of how even the youngest rawest skinniest version of Dempsey could take a beating and keep coming.

It is hard to imagine Flynn beating anyone tough by first round KO.
I know fighters can be 'caught cold' but this is a peculiar result to say the least.

Unforgiven, this is just the most extreme form of nuthugging. Dempsey gets sparked out. And to you, reality is not even a possible option.

It can only possibly be either a fixed fight or he was sick and injured. To quote you.

Jack Dempsey himself claims it was legit.

This is just further proof that Dempsey's legacy is mythologised

[SonnyListonsJab]

Joe Louis KO 1 Jack Dempsey

[Unforgiven]

Unforgiven, this is just the most extreme form of nuthugging. Dempsey gets sparked out. And to you, reality is not even a possible option.

It can only possibly be either a fixed fight or he was sick and injured. To quote you.

Jack Dempsey himself claims it was legit.

This is just further proof that Dempsey's legacy is mythologised

Dempsey himself claimed he was injured and untrained, broke his hand working in a bowling alley and couldn't train or defend himself. That was one of his versions anyway.

Others say he was hard up for cash and took $300 dollars to go down. Joe Williams wrote an article about it, Dempsey'd former wife testified in court that he'd taken a dive.
Of course Dempsey'd not going to say he took a dive.

Personally, of course I don't know. I just have my opinions. It's a strange result.

What do you base your judgment on ? You seem to know Dempsey was sparked out (presumably, because he's shit, right ?) ..... but you talk about it as if you've actually seen the fight.

[mcvey]

It plays out something like this: Dempsey comes straight to Louis, meeting him in the centre of the ring with only a small measure of caution; Louis finishes the job that no-one ever started on Dempsey in round two.
Thats it! Round two, with Louis OUT!

[mcvey]

William Harrison Dempsey would pimp slap you for sporting a picture with him and posting up that BS.

peak vs. peak they were barely 10lbs apart.

I am positive that Dempsey could take Louis best shot better then Louis could take a left hook from hell; toe to toe, in an all out brawl, i don't see Louis last.
And also i rate Dempsey as a much better inside fighter, although Joe was great himself.

Just like in Willard fight, i see Dempsey staying out of the range, stalking a much slower Louis, and waiting to slip one of his punches just to get inside Joe and batter him up with devastating body punches.

I think you got it the other way around; anyway stamina won't be a deciding factor, because this fight won't go the full distance.

Dempsey by KO inside of 6; and Nat Fleischer agrees.;)

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[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Now I know I'm in trouble ,because I agree with you.:oops:

[SonnyListonsJab]

Louis proved himself against far superior competition than Jack Dempsey. Dempsey has major question marks in his career, Louis does not.

[JAB5239]

Louis proved himself against far superior competition than Jack Dempsey. Dempsey has major question marks in his career, Louis does not.

I gotta disagree my man. Dempsey has his flaws as have been pointed out over the last several weeks, but he was a helluva fighter and would have been better than anyone Joe faced in his prime.

[SonnyListonsJab]

I gotta disagree my man. Dempsey has his flaws as have been pointed out over the last several weeks, but he was a helluva fighter and would have been better than anyone Joe faced in his prime.

Joe Louis was also far superior to anyone Jack faced in his CAREER. Dempsey had nice skills and footwork, but Dempsey would get wild while on the attack(just like he always did), the low hands would come, and Louis would patiently wait...then bombard him with blazing fast 5-6 punch combinations down the pipe and dempsey would fall...and that would be it. Dempsey would also have to pay the price to coming inside by taking Louis' tremendous jab, a jab Dempsey never seen in his career until Tunney dominated him with it for 20 rounds.

Dempsey looks great on film, against certain fighters. Then you put him in with Class A fighters Sharkey and Tunney...and all of a sudden he doesn't look so earthly shattering. Granted, he was past his prime but you get the point. In Dempsey's prime, he never faced that really big threat to him, that A level fighter like Harry Wills he needed to prove his skills and power against.

[JAB5239]

Joe Louis was also far superior to anyone Jack faced in his CAREER. Dempsey had nice skills and footwork, but Dempsey would get wild while on the attack(just like he always did), the low hands would come, and Louis would patiently wait...then bombard him with blazing fast 5-6 punch combinations down the pipe and dempsey would fall...and that would be it. Dempsey would also have to pay the price to coming inside by taking Louis' tremendous jab, a jab Dempsey never seen in his career until Tunney dominated him with it for 20 rounds.

Dempsey looks great on film, against B level fighters. Then you put him in with Class A fighters Sharkey and Tunney...and all of a sudden he doesn't look so earthly shattering. Granted, he was past his prime but you get the point. In Dempsey's prime, he never faced that really big threat to him, that A level fighter like Harry Wills he needed to prove his skills and power against.

I don't necessarily disagree with you analysis, only that Louis faced superior competition. :good

[mcvey]

Louis proved himself against far superior competition than Jack Dempsey. Dempsey has major question marks in his career, Louis does not.

Louis was down against Schmeling x2,Galento,Braddock,B Baer,Walcott x3,I'll leave out Marciano.
I think it's entirely reasonable that Dempsey gets Louis out of there, and early. Of course the converse is true too.:think

[SonnyListonsJab]

only that Louis faced superior competition.

It's not even close really.....

Marciano > Anyone Dempsey faced

Charles - Tunney: Let's call it a wash

Walcott > Sharkey

Conn > aging Gibbons

Schmeling > Miske

M Baer > Brennan

Carnera > 37 year old Willard

B Baer > Morris

Braddock > Carpentier

Pastor > Levinsky

Galento-Firpo: We will call it a wash

Then you got Mauriello, Uzcuden, Simon, half blind JH Lewis, Mann, Nova, Godoy, Farrr, Ettore, Dorazio, Poreda, Ramage, Perroni, Brion, Savold, Retzlaff, McCoy, aging Bivins, Old Sharkey

easily over

aging Gunboat Smith, Old Flynn, Porky Flynn, Devere, Meehan, Pelkey, Anderson, Kellar, Bonds, Darcy

[JAB5239]

It's not even close really.....

Marciano > Anyone Dempsey faced

Charles - Tunney: Let's call it a wash

Walcott > Sharkey

Conn > aging Gibbons

Schmeling > Miske

M Baer > Brennan

Carnera > 37 year old Willard

B Baer > Morris

Braddock > Carpentier

Pastor > Levinsky

Galento-Firpo: We will call it a wash

Then you got Mauriello, Uzcuden, Simon, half blind JH Lewis, Mann, Nova, Godoy, Farrr, Ettore, Dorazio, Poreda, Ramage, Perroni, Brion, Savold, Retzlaff, McCoy, aging Bivins, Old Sharkey

easily over

aging Gunboat Smith, Old Flynn, Porky Flynn, Devere, Meehan, Pelkey, Anderson, Kellar, Bonds, Darcy

Im not talking about the competition each faced, but the fighters themselves. Both Louis and Dempsey would be the best fighters either had faced had they the opportunity to fight.

[SonnyListonsJab]

Im not talking about the competition each faced, but the fighters themselves. Both Louis and Dempsey would be the best fighters either had faced had they the opportunity to fight.

In there primes, yes. I happen to think Marciano is at least on the same level as Dempsey as a fighter, puncher, and finisher....and Louis fought the very best version of Rocky Marciano.

[JAB5239]

In there primes, yes. I happen to think Marciano is at least on the same level as Dempsey as a fighter, puncher, and finisher....and Louis fought the very best version of Rocky Marciano.

:good

[SonnyListonsJab]

Dempsey's best bet is to get on his bicycle more than ever before, up on his toes in and out side to side bobbing and weave, do the little walk a ways like Walcott did. Pick and choose, then wait to pounce on Louis. If he tries to walk right into Louis and take him out, Louis will knock him out. No one can out slug Joe Louis.

[mcvey]

Dempsey's best bet is to get on his bicycle more than ever before, up on his toes in and out side to side bobbing and weave, do the little walk a ways like Walcott did. Pick and choose, then wait to pounce on Louis. If he tries to walk right into Louis and take him out, Louis will knock him out. No one can out slug Joe Louis.
Guys that walked into him often had momentary success,granted it was only fleeting but they were not Jack Dempsey.
Those that were apprehensive of the murder in his fists, back pedalled away from his power ,to be leisurely stalked, and pounded into submission.
Buddy Baer sailed into him and put him out of the ring with a left hook.
Slow footed , clumsy , Galento dropped him with the same punch after rocking him in the first.
Tami Mauriello rocked him early too .
Dempsey's left hook was several grades above Baer's, and Galento's.
It would be foolish for anyone to dogmatically state that Louis would not / could not, get Jack out of there ,but the opposite is an equally likely prospect imo.

[SonnyListonsJab]

Buddy Baer sailed into him and put him out of the ring with a left hook.
Slow footed , clumsy , Galento dropped him with the same punch after rocking him in the first.
Tami Mauriello rocked him early too .
Dempsey's left hook was several grades above Baer's, and Galento's.

At least Louis was never floored 3x, knocked out of the ring and saved by a typewriter against one of the crudest fighters ever to fight in the ring...Luis Firpo. Firpo exposed a Dempsey flaw big time. Dempsey was also knocked out old cold for 20 seconds by a left hook and right hand from 38 year old Fireman Flynn.

[mcvey]

At least Louis was never floored 3x, knocked out of the ring and saved by a typewriter against one of the crudest fighters ever to fight in the ring...Luis Firpo. Firpo exposed a Dempsey flaw big time. Dempsey was also knocked out old cold for 20 seconds by a left hook and right hand from 38 year old Fireman Flynn.
Do you think Firpo was slower, cruder than Galento?
Dempsey had 77 fights over a 13 year career ,and was kod once ,and that is a subject of furious debate up until this day.

[SonnyListonsJab]

Do you think Firpo was slower, cruder than Galento?

Yes, Firpo was awful.

[burt bienstock]

Do you think Firpo was slower, cruder than Galento?
Dempsey had 77 fights over a 13 year career ,and was kod once ,and that is a subject of furious debate up until this day.
Mc,save your breath. as U correctly attest, Dempsey was ko'd only once by Fireman Jim Flynn in 1917,under truly suspicious circumstances, in a total of
80 fights. And Firpo though crude ,was a powerful puncher [think a bigger Rocky Graziano],and at that time considered a threat to anyone. When it comes to the subject of Dempsey Mc, to defend him today on ESB, requires a lot of fortitude. He is derided more so than any prominent fighter in history,on this forum, and the reason why still baffles me...The choice to me at this point is to believe the opinions of boxing experts who saw him at his best and claimed him as a great heavyweight,possibly the greatest,knowing full well his RECORD, or some posters of today who think so LITTLE of him
and try to disparage him at every turn, every time. So M, I made my choice to go along with the vast number of sportswriters who called him the best heavyweight in the 1950 and 1960 polls...M, they WERE there,when he fought
in his prime days, and I agree with them... Cheers Mc.:good

[Vic-JofreBRASIL]

I can see a good case for either man here....

[leverage]

I think that it would be a matter of who landed first. I would pick louis if it weren't for his c-grade chin. Dempsey could punch really hard and had fast hands and louis would be vurnerable. Louis also had relatively slow feet and if he got hurt this could be a big handicap for him.

Dempsey would be just as vurnerable because for all of his speed and power, his aggression caused him to leave himself also. This could easily play into the hands of Louis who threw the most perfect combos of any heavyweight in history.

It would be pick-em for me.

[Pachilles]

Mc,save your breath. as U correctly attest, Dempsey was ko'd only once by Fireman Jim Flynn in 1917,under truly suspicious circumstances, in a total of
80 fights. And Firpo though crude ,was a powerful puncher [think a bigger Rocky Graziano],and at that time considered a threat to anyone. When it comes to the subject of Dempsey Mc, to defend him today on ESB, requires a lot of fortitude. He is derided more so than any prominent fighter in history,on this forum, and the reason why still baffles me...The choice to me at this point is to believe the opinions of boxing experts who saw him at his best and claimed him as a great heavyweight,possibly the greatest,knowing full well his RECORD, or some posters of today who think so LITTLE of him
and try to disparage him at every turn, every time. So M, I made my choice to go along with the vast number of sportswriters who called him the best heavyweight in the 1950 and 1960 polls...M, they WERE there,when he fought
in his prime days, and I agree with them... Cheers Mc.:good

Jesus Christ you say the exact same thing, over, and over and over, and over again. Jack Dempsey was not infallable. Why cant his faults or his poor resume or poor title reign or fundamentals or bad performances be picked apart like everybody elses??

Since him there have been many great champions, who were actually true world champions, in the fact that no entire race was forbidden to challenge the champion. Dempsey just doesnt measure up to more recent ATG HW's

[he grant]

Dempsey's best bet is to get on his bicycle more than ever before, up on his toes in and out side to side bobbing and weave, do the little walk a ways like Walcott did. Pick and choose, then wait to pounce on Louis. If he tries to walk right into Louis and take him out, Louis will knock him out. No one can out slug Joe Louis.

You have a point but the biggest trouble w Dempsey here is that he got hit and saw red and that was that ... he seemed unable to fight the sort of fight you described ... I feel his best bet is to hurt JOe fast and early and then it is a different fight ... there is a shot the explosive Dempsey could do that ... a much faster verion of what Galento did in round one ... if Jack does not shake him up bad, early, I see Joe flattening him in three or four rounds ... no one takes too many of those Louis combos ... Jack took a better punch than Joe but no one takes too many from JOe ...

[burt bienstock]

Jesus Christ you say the exact same thing, over, and over and over, and over again. Jack Dempsey was not infallable. Why cant his faults or his poor resume or poor title reign or fundamentals or bad performances be picked apart like everybody elses??

Since him there have been many great champions, who were actually true world champions, in the fact that no entire race was forbidden to challenge the champion. Dempsey just doesnt measure up to more recent ATG HW's
P, here is a perfect example of a Dempsey detractor,that compels me to defend him. I am home now having a mug of java when U yourself spout a
falsehood about Jack Dempsey. So Jack Dempsey who fought John Lester Johnson, had numerous black sparring partners, befriended some, is accused
of forbidding 'an entire race',because the one viable black fighter of his reign
never got a shot at Dempsey's title, though they did sign once for that fight.
Harry Wills certainly deserved a shot at Dempsey's crown ,sure did, p, but
to say an"entire race" was avoided by Dempsey while he was an ACTIVE title-holder is sheer hyperbole, and if I don't defend this false accusation, who would ? Back to the coffee...Bottoms up....
P.S. P, don't U think I have eyes and some form of integrity. I too watch film of Dempsey that is available, and I have to agree with the 1950 @ 1960s
poll. I see a killer in the Jess Willard film,though herky -jerky, I see Dempsey
after a long layoff winning most of the rounds against a great defensive
safety first Tommy Gibbons, I see Dempsey, though surprised and dropped by a crude ,but powerful Luis Angel Firpo, come back and annihilate Firpo with two punches so fast they hardly can be seen,I see an old Dempsey rusty after a 3 year layoff drop the elusive Gene Tunney with a 5 punch barrage, and I see old Dempsey persevere, and weaken and flatten a young prime Jack Sharkey in 1927, which might be Dempsey's most impressive win,considering
he was a shell of his pantherlike prime...Yes I have eyes also, and an enquiring mind P. Have a good day....

[he grant]

Mc,save your breath. as U correctly attest, Dempsey was ko'd only once by Fireman Jim Flynn in 1917,under truly suspicious circumstances, in a total of
80 fights. And Firpo though crude ,was a powerful puncher [think a bigger Rocky Graziano],and at that time considered a threat to anyone. When it comes to the subject of Dempsey Mc, to defend him today on ESB, requires a lot of fortitude. He is derided more so than any prominent fighter in history,on this forum, and the reason why still baffles me...The choice to me at this point is to believe the opinions of boxing experts who saw him at his best and claimed him as a great heavyweight,possibly the greatest,knowing full well his RECORD, or some posters of today who think so LITTLE of him
and try to disparage him at every turn, every time. So M, I made my choice to go along with the vast number of sportswriters who called him the best heavyweight in the 1950 and 1960 polls...M, they WERE there,when he fought
in his prime days, and I agree with them... Cheers Mc.:good


Burt someone here actually posted a newspaper article from the first Dempsey/Flynn fight that clearly stated no only was Dempsey stopped but was on the canvas over thirty seconds after the last knockdown. I wish I could find it but maybe someone has it and will repost it .. This was coverage from the fight itself by a reporter that was there ... the article was legit and it stated clearly Dempsey was KO'ed .. not even a quick TKO but out.

[RockysSplitNose]

Burt someone here actually posted a newspaper article from the first Dempsey/Flynn fight that clearly stated no only was Dempsey stopped but was on the canvas over thirty seconds after the last knockdown. I wish I could find it but maybe someone has it and will repost it .. This was coverage from the fight itself by a reporter that was there ... the article was legit and it stated clearly Dempsey was KO'ed .. not even a quick TKO but out.

I've read the article too HeGrant but I have also read about 6 different articles about the fight - all from people who were there and all of which were 'legit' and all of which gave differing stories about what happened and all of which gave different conatations of the shady feel of the fight - just like I've read numerous reports (all different) about what happened with, say, the Johnson CHoynski bout - point being when you got 10 different stories and all are different then who's to say what's legit?? Fact is from seeing his fights against Langford and Johnson Flynn doesn't look to be able to punch his way out of a wet paper bag?? Yet he flattens one of the toughest fighters ever in the heavyweight division?? I know anything can happen in a boxing ring - and often does - but when a large number of reports suggest sahdy goings on - and someone swears under oath in court that shady things happened etc you have to read between the lines a little bit - Flynn would flat out never have been able to KO Dempsey (let alone in the first round) - the proof is in the pudding of what happened in the rematch Dempsey 1st round KO - that's all I need to know thank you very much :hi:

[Unforgiven]

Burt someone here actually posted a newspaper article from the first Dempsey/Flynn fight that clearly stated no only was Dempsey stopped but was on the canvas over thirty seconds after the last knockdown. I wish I could find it but maybe someone has it and will repost it .. This was coverage from the fight itself by a reporter that was there ... the article was legit and it stated clearly Dempsey was KO'ed .. not even a quick TKO but out.

Yes, but even if that article is 100% legit, the allegation is that the KO was fixed - faked by Dempsey.

[burt bienstock]

I've read the article too HeGrant but I have also read about 6 different articles about the fight - all from people who were there and all of which were 'legit' and all of which gave differing stories about what happened and all of which gave different conatations of the shady feel of the fight - just like I've read numerous reports (all different) about what happened with, say, the Johnson CHoynski bout - point being when you got 10 different stories and all are different then who's to say what's legit?? Fact is from seeing his fights against Langford and Johnson Flynn doesn't look to be able to punch his way out of a wet paper bag?? Yet he flattens one of the toughest fighters ever in the heavyweight division?? I know anything can happen in a boxing ring - and often does - but when a large number of reports suggest sahdy goings on - and someone swears under oath in court that shady things happened etc you have to read between the lines a little bit - Flynn would flat out never have been able to KO Dempsey (let alone in the first round) - the proof is in the pudding of what happened in the rematch Dempsey 1st round KO - that's all I need to know thank you very much :hi:
Rocky, well stated.:hi:

[Boilermaker]

Flynn would flat out never have been able to KO Dempsey (let alone in the first round) - the proof is in the pudding of what happened in the rematch Dempsey 1st round KO - that's all I need to know thank you very much :hi:

But the same could be said of Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman against Lewis, Or Sanders, Purity and Brewster against Wlad. Gypsy Daniels against Schmelling etc. Strange and unexplained results are common, not uncommon. Flynn was not a totally hopeless case, and while an unlikely result, it is not beyond the realms of possibility.

I know i have certainly read some very detailed descriptions of the KO. It is something we never will really know for sure.

[Rock0052]

But the same could be said of Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman against Lewis, Or Sanders, Purity and Brewster against Wlad. Gypsy Daniels against Schmelling etc. Strange and unexplained results are common, not uncommon. Flynn was not a totally hopeless case, and while an unlikely result, it is not beyond the realms of possibility.

I know i have certainly read some very detailed descriptions of the KO. It is something we never will really know for sure.

A temple shot from the most feather fisted puncher can knock out the most iron-chinned fighter if it lands just right. Just look at Ottke-Mundine for a perfect example. 999 times out of 1000, it wouldn't happen. But all it takes is one perfect shot like that to pull it off.

I don't think we'll ever know for sure either way, either. I view it as a fluke (but legit) knockout that isn't an indicator of Jack having a bad chin at all. Would it surprise me if some concrete evidence showed the fix was in? Absolutely not (that the fight was a fix that is, I'd be really shocked if anything concrete ever turned up). But I count the loss as a clean one.

[orriray59]

Nat Fleischer was a skilled experienced observer of world class boxers for well over a decade by the time of Dempsey/Willard, and he was also at ringside for Joe Louis's peak performance against Max Baer, as well as all the title fights with both champions. Interestingly, Fleischer rated Dempsey's handspeed in Toledo as slightly superior to Louis's against Maxie, an opinion he held to when reviewing films of these events.

This is a critical contention, because it's been generally assumed that Louis had the superior handspeed, when in actuality, it was Joe's trait of usually pitching shorter punches with greater economy of motion which gave him the illusion of superior handspeed.

Dempsey showed against Carpentier that opponents with superior handspeed didn't particularly trouble Jack during his prime. The same was not true for Louis, as anybody who's viewed the complete footage of Louis/Conn I can attest.

By Joe's own admission, he didn't like to be crowded. Dempsey was far more active with his upper body movement than Godoy was. Boxers who had been hit hard by both usually gave Dempsey the clear edge in firepower. In private, Jack Blackburn confided that Jack Johnson would have beaten Louis, "because Johnson was a mover." Peak Dempsey kept his knees bent, while bouncing laterally on the balls of his feet, or darting quickly, in and out. At his peak, there was nothing wrong with Jack's accuracy either. It's something of a myth, that he always threw punches at random, never aiming for a specific target. His hands could certainly withstand the stress of striking an opponent anywhere on his body though.

When Tommy Gibbons was asked shortly after losing his title challenge if Dempsey hit hard, Tommy didn't say a word. He simply took off the hat he was wearing, so the questioner could see all the lumps, bumps, and bruises, all over the top of Tommy's head. 17 years later, when Joe was preparing for his rematch with Godoy, Blackburn was describing the strategy of slowly retreating and sliding left and right to hammer away at the sides of Arturo's head and body that Louis would execute in their rematch, but, "Not to the top of the head, because that's too hard." Not for Dempsey, it wasn't, as Gibbons painfully discovered.

Toledo Jack had the edge in handspeed, punching power, footspeed, mobility, balance (continually shifting his weight from foot to foot), and ring intelligence and adaptability as well. While Louis and Blackburn couldn't figure out Godoy during their first match, Dempsey adjusted to the reality of an unexpectedly difficult title challenge from Brennan, and easily shifted from killer mode to distance decision gear when Gibbons stood up to Jack's Sunday Punch early on.

If Louis entered into the sort of slugfest with Dempsey that Max Baer initiated in the first round of his match with Joe, Jack would not freak out if Louis took his best shot, nor would he back down as Maxie did. If hurt, Jack was far more dangerous than Joe was. (It might bear mentioning that Dempsey was Baer's chief second against Louis. After escorting Maxie back to his corner from ring center after the bell rang, to "save" Baer from a kayo after he waved to the crowd from the ring floor, he told Jack he didn't want to go out again. Dempsey snarled at Max, "Do you want him to knock you out, or do you want ME to do it? I think it's very telling that, in the middle of Louis's peak physical performance, Baer was more afraid of Dempsey than he was of Joe.)

Technically, Louis may have been the most fundamentally sound of all the heavyweight champions, but in Dempsey, Joe wouldn't be facing a textbook, but one of the sport's innovators. While Joe was part Cherokee, and Jack part Choctaw, Dempsey was the one who fought more like a savage.

Finally, in the third bout after Louis's peak performance, a past prime Max Schmeling dropped 22 year old Joe for the count, and then some, a situation that never happened to Dempsey in competition. (The first Flynn encounter has been documented as a staged performance with a pre-planned outcome, not a competitive match.) Regardless of how poorly Louis prepared for the first Schmeling fight, the fact remains that Joe was 22 years old, and at the peak of his athletic ability, yet still went down and out.

In recent decades, some boxing experts have suggested that Alexis Arguello was the closest performer to Joe Louis that boxing has produced since the Bomber's heyday. Some of these same astute observers have earmarked Roberto Duran as the closest fighter to Jack Dempsey that the sport was seen in recent decades.

On another thread a while back, I picked Duran over Arguello (as did most of the others who responded to that thread). Remaining consistent, I will also pick Dempsey over Louis, even if the match goes to a 15 round distance. I just don't see Louis avoiding at least one trip, and maybe more to the ring surface. Galento came off the deck to floor Louis with a smashing hook, and Dempsey had a far more lethal hook than Two-Ton did. In setting up the Long Count knockdown, a shot version of Dempsey stunned Tunney with a counter right over Gene's jab, which presaged the rights Schmeling pummeled Louis with nine years later. Max Baer proved that the faster, braver, and tougher predatory Dempsey of Toledo wouldn't have great difficulty landing his hooks and crosses on the peak version of Louis. Jimmy Braddock demonstrated in flooring Joe, that the monstrous uppercut off the ropes which Dempsey dispatched Firpo with would have also flattened Louis. Manassa Mauler over Brown Bomber.

Dempsey KO 14 Louis

You always write excellent posts with a lot of thought and analyzing. Great job here, I totally agree with you.

[he grant]

Nat Fleischer was a skilled experienced observer of world class boxers for well over a decade by the time of Dempsey/Willard, and he was also at ringside for Joe Louis's peak performance against Max Baer, as well as all the title fights with both champions. Interestingly, Fleischer rated Dempsey's handspeed in Toledo as slightly superior to Louis's against Maxie, an opinion he held to when reviewing films of these events.

This is a critical contention, because it's been generally assumed that Louis had the superior handspeed, when in actuality, it was Joe's trait of usually pitching shorter punches with greater economy of motion which gave him the illusion of superior handspeed.

Dempsey showed against Carpentier that opponents with superior handspeed didn't particularly trouble Jack during his prime. The same was not true for Louis, as anybody who's viewed the complete footage of Louis/Conn I can attest.

By Joe's own admission, he didn't like to be crowded. Dempsey was far more active with his upper body movement than Godoy was. Boxers who had been hit hard by both usually gave Dempsey the clear edge in firepower. In private, Jack Blackburn confided that Jack Johnson would have beaten Louis, "because Johnson was a mover." Peak Dempsey kept his knees bent, while bouncing laterally on the balls of his feet, or darting quickly, in and out. At his peak, there was nothing wrong with Jack's accuracy either. It's something of a myth, that he always threw punches at random, never aiming for a specific target. His hands could certainly withstand the stress of striking an opponent anywhere on his body though.

When Tommy Gibbons was asked shortly after losing his title challenge if Dempsey hit hard, Tommy didn't say a word. He simply took off the hat he was wearing, so the questioner could see all the lumps, bumps, and bruises, all over the top of Tommy's head. 17 years later, when Joe was preparing for his rematch with Godoy, Blackburn was describing the strategy of slowly retreating and sliding left and right to hammer away at the sides of Arturo's head and body that Louis would execute in their rematch, but, "Not to the top of the head, because that's too hard." Not for Dempsey, it wasn't, as Gibbons painfully discovered.

Toledo Jack had the edge in handspeed, punching power, footspeed, mobility, balance (continually shifting his weight from foot to foot), and ring intelligence and adaptability as well. While Louis and Blackburn couldn't figure out Godoy during their first match, Dempsey adjusted to the reality of an unexpectedly difficult title challenge from Brennan, and easily shifted from killer mode to distance decision gear when Gibbons stood up to Jack's Sunday Punch early on.

If Louis entered into the sort of slugfest with Dempsey that Max Baer initiated in the first round of his match with Joe, Jack would not freak out if Louis took his best shot, nor would he back down as Maxie did. If hurt, Jack was far more dangerous than Joe was. (It might bear mentioning that Dempsey was Baer's chief second against Louis. After escorting Maxie back to his corner from ring center after the bell rang, to "save" Baer from a kayo after he waved to the crowd from the ring floor, he told Jack he didn't want to go out again. Dempsey snarled at Max, "Do you want him to knock you out, or do you want ME to do it? I think it's very telling that, in the middle of Louis's peak physical performance, Baer was more afraid of Dempsey than he was of Joe.)

Technically, Louis may have been the most fundamentally sound of all the heavyweight champions, but in Dempsey, Joe wouldn't be facing a textbook, but one of the sport's innovators. While Joe was part Cherokee, and Jack part Choctaw, Dempsey was the one who fought more like a savage.

Finally, in the third bout after Louis's peak performance, a past prime Max Schmeling dropped 22 year old Joe for the count, and then some, a situation that never happened to Dempsey in competition. (The first Flynn encounter has been documented as a staged performance with a pre-planned outcome, not a competitive match.) Regardless of how poorly Louis prepared for the first Schmeling fight, the fact remains that Joe was 22 years old, and at the peak of his athletic ability, yet still went down and out.

In recent decades, some boxing experts have suggested that Alexis Arguello was the closest performer to Joe Louis that boxing has produced since the Bomber's heyday. Some of these same astute observers have earmarked Roberto Duran as the closest fighter to Jack Dempsey that the sport was seen in recent decades.

On another thread a while back, I picked Duran over Arguello (as did most of the others who responded to that thread). Remaining consistent, I will also pick Dempsey over Louis, even if the match goes to a 15 round distance. I just don't see Louis avoiding at least one trip, and maybe more to the ring surface. Galento came off the deck to floor Louis with a smashing hook, and Dempsey had a far more lethal hook than Two-Ton did. In setting up the Long Count knockdown, a shot version of Dempsey stunned Tunney with a counter right over Gene's jab, which presaged the rights Schmeling pummeled Louis with nine years later. Max Baer proved that the faster, braver, and tougher predatory Dempsey of Toledo wouldn't have great difficulty landing his hooks and crosses on the peak version of Louis. Jimmy Braddock demonstrated in flooring Joe, that the monstrous uppercut off the ropes which Dempsey dispatched Firpo with would have also flattened Louis. Manassa Mauler over Brown Bomber.

Dempsey KO 14 Louis

What an interesting assortment of assumptions portrayed as fact ... Dempsey was faster, Dempsey hit harder, Dempsey had better balance, a noted dive v.s. Flynn ... what next, Dempsey's better left jab ? All this post proves is that spin is in here ... I love Dempsey but he has a puncher's chance at best against Joe and it better come early .. all the talk about the iron chin of Dempsey but of the eight filmed bouts of his that remain we see him badly hurt by Brennan, Carpentier, Firpo, Tunney twice and Sharkey ... All of them were able to land heavily on him and none of them were in the league of Joe Louis .... I think that if he did not catch Louis in the first two minutes and badly hurt him this dream fight becomes a massacre ...

[burt bienstock]

Thats it! Round two, with Louis OUT!

What an interesting assortment of assumptions portrayed as fact ... Dempsey was faster, Dempsey hit harder, Dempsey had better balance, a noted dive v.s. Flynn ... what next, Dempsey's better left jab ? All this post proves is that spin is in here ... I love Dempsey but he has a puncher's chance at best against Joe and it better come early .. all the talk about the iron chin of Dempsey but of the eight filmed bouts of his that remain he was badly hurt on film against Brennan, Carpentier, Firpo, Tunney twice and Sharkey ... I think that if he did not catch Louis in the first two minutes and badly hurt him this dream fight becomes a massacre ...
he,do not UNDERESTIMATE the Jack Sharkey of the 1927 Dempsey fight.
It was a feather in Dempsey's cap that he was competitive with the prime Sharkey. That 25 year old Sharkey,was weakened and eventually knocked out by the 32 year old rusty shell of himself, Jack Dempsey, lest you forget.
By all accounts Dempsey had a great chin, and yes he was "rocked"
occasionally. What go for broke ,aggressive slugger isn't tagged occasionally
but in EIGHTY total bouts, Dempsey was kod only ONE time in a controversial
ko loss to Jim Flynn in 1917. I and many other boxing writers of the past suspected Dempsey took a dive in that bout...MANY. But even if this was a legit ko,Dempsey with his new manager Jack Kearns flattened Flynn ONE year later in ONE round. he, try to find another weakness of Dempsey, to justify your little respect for him, because Dempsey's one "ko" in 80 bouts, is a
positive for his rugged reputation...Can some posters find another "target"
other than Jack Dempsey ? I'm sure other old heavyweights were "rocked' a few times...:hi:

[he grant]

he,do not UNDERESTIMATE the Jack Sharkey of the 1927 Dempsey fight.
It was a feather in Dempsey's cap that he was competitive with the prime Sharkey. That 25 year old Sharkey,was weakened and eventually knocked out by the 32 year old rusty shell of himself, Jack Dempsey, lest you forget.
By all accounts Dempsey had a great chin, and yes he was "rocked"
occasionally. What go for broke ,aggressive slugger isn't tagged occasionally
but in EIGHTY total bouts, Dempsey was kod only ONE time in a controversial
ko loss to Jim Flynn in 1917. I and many other boxing writers of the past suspected Dempsey took a dive in that bout...MANY. But even if this was a legit ko,Dempsey with his new manager Jack Kearns flattened Flynn ONE year later in ONE round. he, try to find another weakness of Dempsey, to justify your little respect for him, because Dempsey's one "ko" in 80 bouts, is a
positive for his rugged reputation...Can some posters find another "target"
other than Jack Dempsey ? I'm sure other old heavyweights were "rocked' a few times...:hi:

Burt, I am a huge Dempsey fan. However his "go for broke" style and his seeing red when hit hard are what would likely spell his disaster v.s. Louis. If he fought Joe like he did Firpo he'd have been iced ... Show me one fight where Dempsey mixed speed and boxing skills to pick spots and chop a guy down like a Duran in a DeJesus match up and I say maybe but it does not exist because he was not that type of fighter .. he was kill or be killed an I feel Joe had the better weapons, again baring a very early score which was quite possible ... To say he likely loses to Louis is no insult. Very few would not. I pick Louis as a fairly big favorite but Dempsey would be a live under dog ...

[burt bienstock]

Burt, I am a huge Dempsey fan. However his "go for broke" style and his seeing red when hit hard are what would likely spell his disaster v.s. Louis. If he fought Joe like he did Firpo he'd have been iced ... Show me one fight where Dempsey mixed speed and boxing skills to pick spots and chop a guy down like a Duran in a DeJesus match up and I say maybe but it does not exist because he was not that type of fighter .. he was kill or be killed an I feel Joe had the better weapons, again baring a very early score which was quite possible ... To say he likely loses to Louis is no insult. Very few would not. I pick Louis as a fairly big favorite but Dempsey would be a live under dog ...
he, I AGREE with your LAST sentence. I think the Joe Louis of the Baer fight
is a favorite over any fighter, with the possible exception of Dempsey of the Fulton/Willard bouts. Styles, styles, styles...Cheers...

[RockyJim]

Prime Dempsey by KO....Jack's power vs Joe's chin...

[bman100]

P, here is a perfect example of a Dempsey detractor,that compels me to defend him. I am home now having a mug of java when U yourself spout a
falsehood about Jack Dempsey. So Jack Dempsey who fought John Lester Johnson, had numerous black sparring partners, befriended some, is accused
of forbidding 'an entire race',because the one viable black fighter of his reign
never got a shot at Dempsey's title, though they did sign once for that fight.
Harry Wills certainly deserved a shot at Dempsey's crown ,sure did, p, but
to say an"entire race" was avoided by Dempsey while he was an ACTIVE title-holder is sheer hyperbole, and if I don't defend this false accusation, who would ? Back to the coffee...Bottoms up....
P.S. P, don't U think I have eyes and some form of integrity. I too watch film of Dempsey that is available, and I have to agree with the 1950 @ 1960s
poll. I see a killer in the Jess Willard film,though herky -jerky, I see Dempsey
after a long layoff winning most of the rounds against a great defensive
safety first Tommy Gibbons, I see Dempsey, though surprised and dropped by a crude ,but powerful Luis Angel Firpo, come back and annihilate Firpo with two punches so fast they hardly can be seen,I see an old Dempsey rusty after a 3 year layoff drop the elusive Gene Tunney with a 5 punch barrage, and I see old Dempsey persevere, and weaken and flatten a young prime Jack Sharkey in 1927, which might be Dempsey's most impressive win,considering
he was a shell of his pantherlike prime...Yes I have eyes also, and an enquiring mind P. Have a good day....



Burt have you read 'The Fearless Harry Greb'? It quotes Dempsey as saying: "why would Greb put up his (MW) title against a black man?" He was referring to the fight when Greb lost his MW title to Flowers. He felt bad that Greb lost his title (Greb was distraught, and was seen teary-eyed in his corner) but revealed (and I quote) "a closely gaurded secret of his" in reference to Dempsey's views on black fighters. It was in the report of a newspaper writer I think.

Dempsey also shouted out that he would fight "any white man but not a black man" in the ring when Joe Jeanette jumped in the ring to challenge him. Make of that what you will, now these are only reports so it's impossible to tell if they were actually said, its not like its consistent with someone like Corbett who was very outspoken about how how felt about black fighters. Dempsey was friends with black fighters too and had them on his payroll. It could be that he felt black fighters should not fight for a title. maybe because of Johnson-Jeffries, who knows? But there are rumblings that Dempsey didnt agree with a black man fighting for a title in boxing.

[burt bienstock]

Burt have you read 'The Fearless Harry Greb'? It quotes Dempsey as saying: "why would Greb put up his (MW) title against a black man?" He was referring to the fight when Greb lost his MW title to Flowers. He felt bad that Greb lost his title (Greb was distraught, and was seen teary-eyed in his corner) but revealed (and I quote) "a closely gaurded secret of his" in reference to Dempsey's views on black fighters. It was in the report of a newspaper writer I think.

Dempsey also shouted out that he would fight "any white man but not a black man" in the ring when Joe Jeanette jumped in the ring to challenge him. Make of that what you will, now these are only reports so it's impossible to tell if they were actually said, its not like its consistent with someone like Corbett who was very outspoken about how how felt about black fighters. Dempsey was friends with black fighters too and had them on his payroll. It could be that he felt black fighters should not fight for a title. maybe because of Johnson-Jeffries, who knows? But there are rumblings that Dempsey didnt agree with a black man fighting for a title in boxing.
B, yes i have "The Fearless Harry Greb" book at home...I once had "Give Him to the Angels", By James Fair, but fool that I am loaned it to a pal in 1949 or so, and Sayonara. Never saw the book again.
Who really knows Dempsey's true inner feelings of 85 years ago, about black fighters of that long ago period. What you privately think of me doesn't matter to me, as much as how you act towards me.
The fact is aside from all the hyperbole today by some posters who take
delight in lowering Dempsey's legacy,more so than ANY other fighter, the only
VIABLE black fighter Dempsey did not eventually hook-up whilst he was active [aside from his layoffs] was Harry Wills.Not to repeat ad-nauseum,they did sign for a bout, that was never consumated. McVey, Langford, Jeannette, were long in the tooth or retired during Dempsey's active reign.
Did Harry Wills deserve a title shot ? Darn right. Did Wills get a title shot ?No.
But Dempsey did fight John Lester Johnson in 1916, did employ black srarring partners as Big Bill Tate, George Godfrey,Indian Chief Turner during his title reign,and befriended his old foe JL Johnson, who broke 3 of Dempsey's ribs in their 1916 bout,when Turner was ailing in a nursing home. In his retirement Jack Dempsey was a true beloved gentleman, and as a fighter as good as they came... Cheers b....,.

[burt bienstock]

B, yes i have "The Fearless Harry Greb" book at home...I once had "Give Him to the Angels", By James Fair, but fool that I am loaned it to a pal in 1949 or so, and Sayonara. Never saw the book again.
Who really knows Dempsey's true inner feelings of 85 years ago, about black fighters of that long ago period. What you privately think of me doesn't matter to me, as much as how you act towards me.
The fact is aside from all the hyperbole today by some posters who take
delight in lowering Dempsey's legacy,more so than ANY other fighter, the only
VIABLE black fighter Dempsey did not eventually hook-up whilst he was active [aside from his layoffs] was Harry Wills.Not to repeat ad-nauseum,they did sign for a bout, that was never consumated. McVey, Langford, Jeannette, were long in the tooth or retired during Dempsey's active reign.
Did Harry Wills deserve a title shot ? Darn right. Did Wills get a title shot ?No.
But Dempsey did fight John Lester Johnson in 1916, did employ black srarring partners as Big Bill Tate, George Godfrey,Indian Chief Turner during his title reign,and befriended his old foe JL Johnson, who broke 3 of Dempsey's ribs in their 1916 bout,when Turner was ailing in a nursing home. In his retirement Jack Dempsey was a true beloved gentleman, and as a fighter as good as they came... Cheers b....,.
Correction :Dempsey befriended John Lester Johnson, when Johnson was ailing in a nursing home ...

[SuzieQ49]

That 25 year old Sharkey,was weakened and eventually knocked out by the 32 year old rusty shell of himself, Jack Dempsey, lest you forget.
By all accounts Dempsey had a great chin, and yes he was "rocked"

Sharkey wasn't weakened! He was dominating jack dempsey, outboxing him and winning nearly every round. Don't give me that crap about dempsey giving Sharkey a body beating, because he wasn't winning any rounds! Dempsey beat him by cheating, pulling an Andrew Golota and uppercuting him in the balls. Dempsey should have been DQed on the spot!

Very controversial win

[burt bienstock]

Sharkey wasn't weakened! He was dominating jack dempsey, outboxing him and winning nearly every round. Don't give me that crap about dempsey giving Sharkey a body beating, because he wasn't winning any rounds! Dempsey beat him by cheating, pulling an Andrew Golota and uppercuting him in the balls. Dempsey should have been DQed on the spot!

Very controversial win
B.S. I have watched that film dozens of times over the years, every shot on film Dempsey landed was NOWHERE NEAR the OBVIOUS LOW pounches Golata landed. The consensus by reporters who witnessed the bout, were that they were "borderline" at WORST. Besides was the referee BLIND, PAID OFF or was he correct in not once disqualifying Dempsey ? You and your band of
Dempsey haters, give the benefit of the doubt to the referee who wasted many seconds,in the Long Count affair in the Tunney bout, telling Dempsey to go to a neutral corner,after flooring Tunney, BEFORE the ref STARTED the COUNT,allowing Tunney maybe 17 seconds to clear his head, whilst in the LAST Round of the fight Tunney dropped the 32 year old Dempsey, and referee Barry, IMMEDIATELY STARTED THE COUNT, WHILE TUNNEY HOVERED OVER DEMPSEY ,not ONCE directing Tunney to a neutral corner...Was that FAIR ? Darn it, U know the answer !
In the Sharkey/ Dempsey fight, after the bell rung, ending the round ,Sharkey
deliberately rapped Dempsey in the head as Dempsey, hands at his side,
headed to his corner...Dempsey didn't complain , because much to your chagrine, the Manassa Mauler was a fighter, who asked no quarter, and gave no quarter.
Finally : If the ref deemed it right to allow Tunney 17-or so seconds,before
Tunney got off the canvas. If the ref deemed it right,to start counting while Tunney was standing over Dempsey,not telling Gene to go to a neutral corner
in the last round, and made Tunney a new champion in 1926 officially.
It is just as correct officially, when the referee DEEMED that Dempsey KOD
Jack Sharkey in July, 1927...You can't have it BOTH WAY'S...Cheers...

[Goyourownway]

What are the chances of getting Jack Dempsey to sign up for a fight against an elite black fight? Those type were known to give him the heebie jeebies,ya know.

[he grant]

Sharkey wasn't weakened! He was dominating jack dempsey, outboxing him and winning nearly every round. Don't give me that crap about dempsey giving Sharkey a body beating, because he wasn't winning any rounds! Dempsey beat him by cheating, pulling an Andrew Golota and uppercuting him in the balls. Dempsey should have been DQed on the spot!

Very controversial win

No doubt controversial but I have also watched the entire fight many times and Dempsey was in the fight tooth and nail by the middle rounds ... He was giving as good as he took and who knows how it would have ended ...

[RockysSplitNose]

But the same could be said of Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman against Lewis, Or Sanders, Purity and Brewster against Wlad. Gypsy Daniels against Schmelling etc. Strange and unexplained results are common, not uncommon. Flynn was not a totally hopeless case, and while an unlikely result, it is not beyond the realms of possibility.

I know i have certainly read some very detailed descriptions of the KO. It is something we never will really know for sure.

With all due respect Boiler Oliver and Hasim could both hit a ton as did Sanders - McCall and Hasim had very VERY live shots at kayoing Lewis at any time - as does anyone who can get a shot on versus Vlad Klit - not really the same thing really at all. Flynn flat out could not punch at all - in his next 43 fights after the amazing 1st round KO of the Legendary Jack Dempsey - he compiled an awesome further 7 KO wins from 43 fights (of which he lost 26, 9 by KO) - the guy couldn't punch at all - I'm sorry it just doesn't wash mate - it's like saying Chris BYrd could 1st round KO Mike Tyson!! It just ain't happenin!! Anyone with even an ounce of sense (and no biase against Dempsey - either because he wasn't white or didn't seem sophisticated enough or was too small etc etc etc) knows that there is no way in the world the Flynn genuinely KO'd Dempsey it's a joke - even before the Dempsey fight he'd only managed 4 KO's in his previous 20 fights???!! Come on mate get real - don't fall in line with the haters - be real :good

[burt bienstock]

With all due respect Boiler Oliver and Hasim could both hit a ton as did Sanders - McCall and Hasim had very VERY live shots at kayoing Lewis at any time - as does anyone who can get a shot on versus Vlad Klit - not really the same thing really at all. Flynn flat out could not punch at all - in his next 43 fights after the amazing 1st round KO of the Legendary Jack Dempsey - he compiled an awesome further 7 KO wins from 43 fights (of which he lost 26, 9 by KO) - the guy couldn't punch at all - I'm sorry it just doesn't wash mate - it's like saying Chris BYrd could 1st round KO Mike Tyson!! It just ain't happenin!! Anyone with even an ounce of sense (and no biase against Dempsey - either because he wasn't white or didn't seem sophisticated enough or was too small etc etc etc) knows that there is no way in the world the Flynn genuinely KO'd Dempsey it's a joke - even before the Dempsey fight he'd only managed 4 KO's in his previous 20 fights???!! Come on mate get real - don't fall in line with the haters - be real :good
Rocky, good observations by you ! But your enlightened post will NOT alter the opinions of some posters who are absolutely paranoid. Dempsey's mere name evokes the same reaction as a bull seeing a red cape...It is clinical, I think Rocky !!!:hi::hi:
Jack Dempsey.!

[mcvey]

Rocky, good observations by you ! But your enlightened post will NOT alter the opinions of some posters who are absolutely paranoid. Dempsey's mere name evokes the same reaction as a bull seeing a red cape...It is clinical, I think Rocky !!!:hi::hi:
Jack Dempsey.!

How would you have fought him ?
"I would have just walked into him ,and thrown punches".
What sort of punches?
"Short ones, that come around with a lot of shoulder power behind them"
Jack Dempsey.

How about that fight Joe?
" I would want to be very well paid for that fight".
Joe Louis.

[burt bienstock]

How would you have fought him ?
"I would have just walked into him ,and thrown punches".
What sort of punches?
"Short ones, that come around with a lot of shoulder power behind them"
Jack Dempsey.

How about that fight Joe?
" I would want to be very well paid for that fight".
Joe Louis.
Mc,two quotes by the two best heavyweights in my opinion. Who would win ? Difficult to say, but as boxing matches are all about style, I'll pick Dempsey.
Jack was a tremendously fast starter, who guided by Jack Kearns, would have bobbed and weaved into close quarters where he was best at. He would rough up Louis, and hurt Joe with Dempsey's famous short hurting punches, and
most likely drop Louis before Louis , could get started...
But my man Joe Louis, was capable of teeing off on Dempsey, as he did with Arturo Godoy in their second bout..
Result : A toss up, but Dempsey a 7-5 favorite, based on his better set of whiskers....

[mcvey]

Mc,two quotes by the two best heavyweights in my opinion. Who would win ? Difficult to say, but as boxing matches are all about style, I'll pick Dempsey.
Jack was a tremendously fast starter, who guided by Jack Kearns, would have bobbed and weaved into close quarters where he was best at. He would rough up Louis, and hurt Joe with Dempsey's famous short hurting punches, and
most likely drop Louis before Louis , could get started...
But my man Joe Louis, was capable of teeing off on Dempsey, as he did with Arturo Godoy in their second bout..
Result : A toss up, but Dempsey a 7-5 favorite, based on his better set of whiskers....
That's how I see it Burt ,Dempsey in Joe's face giving him no chance to establish that immaculate jab, taking him out of his stride and finishing matters inside 2 rds .No reflection on Louis , the longer the fight goes the better Joe's chances, imo.
I just can't believe the lack of support for Jack here.

[Unforgiven]

That's how I see it Burt ,Dempsey in Joe's face giving him no chance to establish that immaculate jab, taking him out of his stride and finishing matters inside 2 rds .No reflection on Louis , the longer the fight goes the better Joe's chances, imo.
I just can't believe the lack of support for Jack here.

.... yeah, and if you put up a Joe Louis v Tyson poll you'd get an overwhelming swing towards Tyson and the reasons given : because of his ferocious opening bell onslaught, he speed coming in, his crowding style etc. ... all attributes that Dempsey had to the maximum.

I do see Dempsey-Louis as a 50-50 proposition though. Just a fight I'd love to see, doesn't matter about picking the winner.

[Pachilles]

.... yeah, and if you put up a Joe Louis v Tyson poll you'd get an overwhelming swing towards Tyson and the reasons given : because of his ferocious opening bell onslaught, he speed coming in, his crowding style etc. ... all attributes that Dempsey had to the maximum.


Yeah he had those attributes in his day, fighting only white fighters who looked like shit, had no skill and the majority of them were tiny in comparison.

And no, Louis v Tyson threads tend to go about 50/50 on here, with predictable voters on the side of Louis

[Unforgiven]

Yeah he had those attributes in his day, fighting only white fighters who looked like shit, had no skill and the majority of them were tiny in comparison.

And you accuse burt of saying the same thing in every thread. :lol:



And no, Louis v Tyson threads tend to go about 50/50 on here, with predictable voters on the side of Louis


And no,

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

44 votes to Louis, 80 to Tyson, (8 undecided).
That's a heavy swing towards Tyson.
It's more like 65- 35 than 50-50

:deal

[Pachilles]

And you accuse burt of saying the same thing in every thread. :lol:




And no,

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

44 votes to Louis, 80 to Tyson, (8 undecided).
That's a heavy swing towards Tyson.
It's more like 65- 35 than 50-50

:deal

Fair play, i didnt think Tyson would be/should be so heavily favoured.

And burt is worse for it than i am, he does it when its not relevant.

On this very page for example, someone is favouring Louis over Dempsey, and he's claiming that its an agenda driven witch hunt to suggest Dempsey wouldnt blast Louis out in the early rounds

[Unforgiven]

Fair play, i didnt think Tyson would be/should be so heavily favoured.

And burt is worse for it than i am, he does it when its not relevant.


Well, all you seem to go on about is Dempsey's opponents looking like shit and other disrespectful stuff.
You've brought Dempsey into several threads where it's not relevant.


On this very page for example, someone is favouring Louis over Dempsey, and he's claiming that its an agenda driven witch hunt to suggest Dempsey wouldnt blast Louis out in the early rounds


No, he's probably aiming those claims at people who say Dempsey and all his opponents were shit.

[burt bienstock]

Yeah he had those attributes in his day, fighting only white fighters who looked like shit, had no skill and the majority of them were tiny in comparison.

And no, Louis v Tyson threads tend to go about 50/50 on here, with predictable voters on the side of Louis
P, is there any subject but race, race, race on your mind ? Can 'whitey' [your words] do anything right P.? After all P,this very instrument you are communicating on ,was invented by "whitey". I don't know if U are joking or not ,but stuff that you constantly spout helps NO ONE, not even you P..
P.S. The man Dempsey, had American Indian blood in his veins, so do you despise him half as much ?. Cheers...

[Pachilles]

P, is there any subject but race, race, race on your mind ? Can 'whitey' [your words] do anything right P.? After all P,this very instrument you are communicating on ,was invented by "whitey". I don't know if U are joking or not ,but stuff that you constantly spout helps NO ONE, not even you P..
P.S. The man Dempsey, had American Indian blood in his veins, so do you despise him half as much ?. Cheers...

burt, he refused to fight blacks for his title. His outstanding number 1 cntender was black.

That is a big black mark on his legacy. Why can you not even acknowledge this fact? Instead you excuse it and accuse people who state this face reverse-racists

[RockysSplitNose]

burt, he refused to fight blacks for his title. His outstanding number 1 cntender was black.

That is a big black mark on his legacy. Why can you not even acknowledge this fact? Instead you excuse it and accuse people who state this face reverse-racists

Pachilles you talk about Wills as though just because Wills was black it automatically means that he was some higher force - some super human being who it would've been impossible for some puney white guy to beat at all?? He really wasn't that great a fighter at all - Firpo took him 12 rounds - Bartley Madden took him 15 - Dempsey spar mate Bill Tate held him to a draw - John Lester Johnson took him 10 - the blind and shot to peices Langford twice blasted him out - Sharkey would quite easily trounce him and Uzcudun made mincemeat of him too - Wills had no chin in my opinion and was far to static and straight up to have been able to cope with the bouncing crouching bobing moving constant on the move and on the attack Dempsey

[burt bienstock]

burt, he refused to fight blacks for his title. His outstanding number 1 cntender was black.

That is a big black mark on his legacy. Why can you not even acknowledge this fact? Instead you excuse it and accuse people who state this face reverse-racists
P, how many times do you want me to say that Harry Wills DESERVED the FIRST SHOT AT DEMPSEY ? I have posted this time and again that Wills deserved a shot at Dempsey ,though they did sign once for a bout. Do U want me to legalize my statement in the papers ? Of course Wills deserved his shot. Would he have won ? No,he most likely wouldn't have, as Dempsey thrived on big stand-up fighters...
P.S. And Robinson avoided some black fighters also...Boxing is a BUSINESS P, nothing more, nothing else....

[Swarmer]

pachilles you should be ashamed for berating an old man. you're worse than grandpa killing stinkmeaner.

[Unforgiven]

how many times do you want me to say that Harry Wills DESERVED the FIRST SHOT AT DEMPSEY ? I have posted this time and again that Wills deserved a shot at Dempsey ,though they did sign once for a bout. Do U want me to legalize my statement in the papers ?

:lol::lol:

Something tells me even that wouldn't be good enough for Pachilles. :good

You'd probably have to put out a double page spread advert in the center of The Wall Street Journal denouncing Jack Dempsey and every white fighter he ever fought as worthless garbage.

[Bummy Davis]

Dangerous fight for both men, Dempsey had hands of steel and started early and could hurt Joe early, problem with Louis is that he had the best 2 fisted power punch combination's ever and for the most part except when younger and the developmental state and once when older, Louis always got up to win. Louis was one of the best finishers ever I think Marciano and Dempsey were up there but The Brown Bomber was number 1 with KO's over the tall,short,Heavy,Fat,muscular and slim......Joe Louis is my # 1 heavy so I think he prevails but Jack was hands of stone before Duran and would be dangerous and exciting and a definite KO ending....Louis by KO in 5-10

[Pachilles]

Pachilles you talk about Wills as though just because Wills was black it automatically means that he was some higher force - some super human being who it would've been impossible for some puney white guy to beat at all?? He really wasn't that great a fighter at all - Firpo took him 12 rounds - Bartley Madden took him 15 - Dempsey spar mate Bill Tate held him to a draw - John Lester Johnson took him 10 - the blind and shot to peices Langford twice blasted him out - Sharkey would quite easily trounce him and Uzcudun made mincemeat of him too - Wills had no chin in my opinion and was far to static and straight up to have been able to cope with the bouncing crouching bobing moving constant on the move and on the attack Dempsey

I dont talk about Wills at any length of all, with any opinon of him at all, shitnose. All i do is state the following facts

1) Dempsey wouldnt fight blacks
2) Wills was the standout number 1 contender
3) Dempsey ducked Wills

[RockysSplitNose]

I dont talk about Wills at any length of all, with any opinon of him at all, shitnose. All i do is state the following facts

1) Dempsey wouldnt fight blacks
2) Wills was the standout number 1 contender
3) Dempsey ducked Wills

I guarantee you wouldn't be making anything like the same sort of stink if you were to replace Wills with anyother white challenger - for instance did Dempsey avoid Greb because he was white??:lol:

1) Dempsey would and did fight blacks dumbass
2) Wills was without doubt the number 1 contender - again proves nothing - Riddick Bowe trashed a belt rather than face Lewis but I strongly beleive that if he had faced Lewis at that time he would've beaten Lennox anyway - go figure.
3) Dempsey didn't duck Wills - he signed to fight him twice

[Holmes' Jab]

Louis by TKO.

[RockyJim]

Both had great power...both were great finishers...especially Joe...but Jack had a better chin...