interesting fact about the HW division , take a look.

[boxingcar]

Nothing has really changed when you think about it.

If you substract every fighters coming from russia , or to put it simply , every single eastern european fighters.

The heavyweight division would still to this day , be totally dominated by americans.

In other words , if all these guys were gone or not permitted to fight in pro boxing (just like in the good ol golden era or boxing).
the average american fan would still be looking for his white hope in the hw division.

Check this out ,
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

All the american flags are representing an african american athlete with the exception of Ruiz & Arreola.

And that's just for the top 25
If you click on the next page and do the same (substract all white fighters from eastern europe). It's almost the same story.
All the american flags are representing an afro american athlete.
(with the exception of Mike Mollo , Brian Minto ,tye fields)

the same trend goes for basically the entire hw division.

[cross_trainer]

Nothing has really changed when you think about it.

If you substract every fighters coming from russia , or to put it simply , every single eastern european fighters.

The heavyweight division would still to this day , be totally dominated by americans.

In other words , if all these guys were gone or not permitted to fight in pro boxing (just like in the good ol golden era or boxing).
the average american fan would still be looking for his white hope in the hw division.

Check this out ,
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

All the american flags are representing an african american athlete with the exception of Ruiz & Arreola.

And that's just for the top 25
If you click on the next page and do the same (substract all white fighters from eastern europe). It's almost the same story.
All the american flags are representing an afro american athlete.
(with the exception of Mike Mollo , Brian Minto ,tye fields)

the same trend goes for basically the entire hw division.

Two key differences:

1) Eastern European fighters were not as dominant during the "Golden Age" in the 60's and 70's, when Americans won gold medals repeatedly in the heavyweight division.

2) The Americans today are older than they once were. The older generation has not given way to better, younger Americans (with the exception of Chambers).


This would suggest to me that America is going through a particularly bad patch at the moment with regards to heavyweight talent--although the Eastern Europeans are doubtless exceptional athletes as a group regardless.

[boxingcar]

Two key differences:

1) Eastern European fighters were not as dominant during the "Golden Age" in the 60's and 70's, when Americans won gold medals repeatedly in the heavyweight division.

2) The Americans today are older than they once were. The older generation has not given way to better, younger Americans (with the exception of Chambers).


This would suggest to me that America is going through a particularly bad patch at the moment with regards to heavyweight talent--although the Eastern Europeans are doubtless exceptional athletes as a group regardless.

You're not paying attention...You're too concentrated on defending americans.

I'm talking about today's division WITHOUT those eastern euros.
The fact is.
(just imagine for a moment) , IF today's HW division had not a single one of these guys , not only would america still be #1 in the HW divison

But Larry Holmes would actually hit the nail on the head with some of his comments about afro american fighters.

In other words , in 2007 , there still wouldn't be a single white american boxer dominating in the top 10 , or hell even top 30.

Look at the american athletes in the entire top 100.
Still to this day , in 2007, afro american HW boxers are n#1.

Only huge difference is that today's HW division finally has a bit more eastern european participants.

Think about it , back in the 60's muhammad Ali's final opponent (in rome's olympic games) was Pietrzykowski (polish boxer).
That's the best type of guy they could find back then...
He's the same guy who failed in the 1956 olympics (He had the 3rd place)

Just imagine for a moment if pro boxing never would've been banned by the communists in the first place.

[Heavyrighthand]

Interesting point.

I think to simplify, the point you are making is that the white fighters being so prolific in the divsion is entirely due to the Eastern Europeans, and that white America has not contributed one world class heavy.

[freddy-wak]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[boxingcar]

Interesting point.

I think to simplify, the point you are making is that the white fighters being so prolific in the divsion is entirely due to the Eastern Europeans, and that white America has not contributed one world class heavy.

I don't think that's my real point. That's your interpretation.

Boxing had some great white fighters at one point in time such as Dempsey & Marciano & but there were only very few afro american participants.

Now , history repeats itself , only with eastern euros.
But unlike afro americans , they used to be banned even during Ali's era , this had a huge repercution on the long run.

If you take a look at Tyson's record for a example , you'll noticed that even in the 80's , 90's. He was almost forced to fight american fighters only. He had to wait till 2000 to finally fight a polish boxer...and that was in 2000!..

Look at Holmes' record or foreman's record....or any ATG of boxing..
even the great Lennox Lewis (though He's not american) , only had to fight 1 of them back in the 90's (in 1998 , he won a UD vs Mavrovic)
and finally ,his last opponent (in 2003 ) was against Vitali (a fight he was losing on points btw).

Is it a coincidence that most of Lennox Lewis's losses as an amateur were for the most part against eastern euros?

If you substract all white eastern euros and only keep white americans , Holmes' prediction is absolutely justified (even though it's not PC).

[RAMPAGE0017]

I don't think that's my real point. That's your interpretation.

Boxing had some great white fighters at one point in time such as Dempsey & Marciano & but there were only very few afro american participants.

Now , history repeats itself , only with eastern euros.
But unlike afro americans , they used to be banned even during Ali's era , this had a huge repercution on the long run.

If you take a look at Tyson's record for a example , you'll noticed that even in the 80's , 90's. He was almost forced to fight american fighters only. He had to wait till 2000 to finally fight a polish boxer...and that was in 2000!..

Look at Holmes' record or foreman's record....or any ATG of boxing..
even the great Lennox Lewis (though He's not american) , only had to fight 1 of them back in the 90's (in 1998 , he won a UD vs Mavrovic)
and finally ,his last opponent (in 2003 ) was against Vitali (a fight he was losing on points btw).

Is it a coincidence that most of Lennox Lewis's losses as an amateur were for the most part against eastern euros?

If you substract all white eastern euros and only keep white americans , Holmes' prediction is absolutely justified (even though it's not PC).


Mavrovic was a tough fucker, too. :yep

[Stezzie]

Two key differences:

1) Eastern European fighters were not as dominant during the "Golden Age" in the 60's and 70's, when Americans won gold medals repeatedly in the heavyweight division.

2) The Americans today are older than they once were. The older generation has not given way to better, younger Americans (with the exception of Chambers).


This would suggest to me that America is going through a particularly bad patch at the moment with regards to heavyweight talent--although the Eastern Europeans are doubtless exceptional athletes as a group regardless.

I don't think anyone really understands your logic. It is absolutely correct... This reminds of a an experience I had. Back in High school I loved basketball. That was my sport. I played very well for my school. I had a cousin 3 years younger I use to dunk on all the time. He lived 3 hours away. when I graduated I lost my passion to play. Meanwhile he played for his school. He got really good and I always felt I could beat him because I just could. I always had. We finally we played when I was 22 and he was 19. I hadn't seriously played in at least 4 years meanwhile he had that passion. He beat me... he thinks he is better than I was and think I was better. I didn't have the desire to start seriously playing again..so we will never know who was the best prime for prime. He has his theory and I have mine. It's the same with the heavyweight division. Americans/blacks are playing other sports now. The money used to be in boxing but now it isn't so americans are making 100's of millions on other sports which means the are enjoying less risk with more reward. And the you have the soviets that are just comming in hungrier than ever. There are a lot of variables to consider. If you look at it as a black white issue then blacks only make up 10% of the US population and not every black person is interested in sports let alone boxing. So people are comparing such a small percentage of people to compete with a pool of athletes thats at least 10 times larger? There are more variables involved that meet the eye...

[boxingcar]

I don't think anyone really understands your logic. It is absolutely correct... This reminds of a an experience I had. Back in High school I loved basketball. That was my sport. I played very well for my school. I had a cousin 3 years younger I use to dunk on all the time. He lived 3 hours away. when I graduated I lost my passion to play. Meanwhile he played for his school. He got really good and I always felt I could beat him because I just could. I always had. We finally we played when I was 22 and he was 19. I hadn't seriously played in at least 4 years meanwhile he had that passion. He beat me... he thinks he is better than I was and think I was better. I didn't have the desire to start seriously playing again..so we will never know who was the best prime for prime. He has his theory and I have mine. It's the same with the heavyweight division. Americans/blacks are playing other sports now. The money used to be in boxing but now it isn't so americans are making 100's of millions on other sports which means the are enjoying less risk with more reward. And the you have the soviets that are just comming in hungrier than ever. There are a lot of variables to consider. If you look at it as a black white issue then blacks only make up 10% of the US population and not every black person is interested in sports let alone boxing. So people are comparing such a small percentage of people to compete with a pool of athletes thats at least 10 times larger? There are more variables involved that meet the eye...

Interesting. But if we're gonna talk about population and variables. Then 10% of the US population becomes a bit irrelevant since it still doesn't change my original point.

Which was quite simple...
in a nutshell...in 2007 (still to this day)
If you simply substract every single eastern europeans , there's not a single white american top boxer. (in the top 20 or 30)
So in a way , Larry Holmes was and is still right.

speaking of 10% , you're forgetting the fact that many of them are a majority in certain sport disciplines. (boxing happens to be one of them , same goes for basketball)

(on a side note: they may be a minority in the US , but the entire white race is also a minority around the world). Jews are also a miniorty (doesn't stop them from controling the majority)

[CASH_718]

Nothing has really changed when you think about it.

If you substract every fighters coming from russia , or to put it simply , every single eastern european fighters.

The heavyweight division would still to this day , be totally dominated by americans.

In other words , if all these guys were gone or not permitted to fight in pro boxing (just like in the good ol golden era or boxing).
the average american fan would still be looking for his white hope in the hw division.

Check this out ,
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

All the american flags are representing an african american athlete with the exception of Ruiz & Arreola.

And that's just for the top 25
If you click on the next page and do the same (substract all white fighters from eastern europe). It's almost the same story.
All the american flags are representing an afro american athlete.
(with the exception of Mike Mollo , Brian Minto ,tye fields)

the same trend goes for basically the entire hw division.

There's no such thing as a american american. Irish, Italian, African, German, Russian, Mexican, Puerto Rican ect ect ect if your BORN and raised in america then your an american.

I'm Irish and Italian but I was born a raised in american am I not american???

[MrStayman]

Interesting. But if we're gonna talk about population and variables. Then 10% of the US population becomes a bit irrelevant since it still doesn't change my original point.

Which was quite simple...
in a nutshell...in 2007 (still to this day)
If you simply substract every single eastern europeans , there's not a single white american top boxer. (in the top 20 or 30)
So in a way , Larry Holmes was and is still right.

speaking of 10% , you're forgetting the fact that many of them are a majority in certain sport disciplines. (boxing happens to be one of them , same goes for basketball)

(on a side note: they may be a minority in the US , but the entire white race is also a minority around the world). Jews are also a miniorty (doesn't stop them from controling the majority)
Eastern Europeans are white. Larry Holmes said that there will never be a white champion with blacks fighting the way they are. Therefore, your argument that Holmes was partially correct is absolutely 100% wrong; a white soviet champion refutes Holmes exactly as much as a white american champion would.

[codeman99998]

I don't think anyone really understands your logic. It is absolutely correct... This reminds of a an experience I had. Back in High school I loved basketball. That was my sport. I played very well for my school. I had a cousin 3 years younger I use to dunk on all the time. He lived 3 hours away. when I graduated I lost my passion to play. Meanwhile he played for his school. He got really good and I always felt I could beat him because I just could. I always had. We finally we played when I was 22 and he was 19. I hadn't seriously played in at least 4 years meanwhile he had that passion. He beat me... he thinks he is better than I was and think I was better. I didn't have the desire to start seriously playing again..so we will never know who was the best prime for prime. He has his theory and I have mine. It's the same with the heavyweight division. Americans/blacks are playing other sports now. The money used to be in boxing but now it isn't so americans are making 100's of millions on other sports which means the are enjoying less risk with more reward. And the you have the soviets that are just comming in hungrier than ever. There are a lot of variables to consider. If you look at it as a black white issue then blacks only make up 10% of the US population and not every black person is interested in sports let alone boxing. So people are comparing such a small percentage of people to compete with a pool of athletes thats at least 10 times larger? There are more variables involved that meet the eye...

I'm sorry to tell you this but your cousin is definitely better than you.

[robpalmer135]

that is because all ranking are bias towards USA

[BigEars]

There's no such thing as a american american. Irish, Italian, African, German, Russian, Mexican, Puerto Rican ect ect ect if your BORN and raised in america then your an american.

I'm Irish and Italian but I was born a raised in american am I not american???
Great point Cash , an American is an American . I hate it when people talk about great Irish fighters here and someone mentions Micky Ward(granted the last thread here was about Irish-American as they put it and Irish fighters) .

How much of 'Irish' Micky Ward's life has he spent in Ireland..........answer none , he has never fought here either and infact I'm not sure he's ever been here . Now Ward can be proud of his routes and that's fine but if your talking about Irish fighters he's not one of them............he's an American .

By the way I don't mean to pick on Ward , he was a greatly entertaining fighter but he was just the best example I could use .

[CASH_718]

Great point Cash , an American is an American . I hate it when people talk about great Irish fighters here and someone mentions Micky Ward(granted the last thread here was about Irish-American as they put it and Irish fighters) .

How much of 'Irish' Micky Ward's life has he spent in Ireland..........answer none , he has never fought here either and infact I'm not sure he's ever been here . Now Ward can be proud of his routes and that's fine but if your talking about Irish fighters he's not one of them............he's an American .

By the way I don't mean to pick on Ward , he was a greatly entertaining fighter but he was just the best example I could use .Great example.

[TBooze]

Great point Cash , an American is an American . I

Well actually depending on what you believe, we are all Ethiopian or Iraqi with a few hundred other scenario's inbetween...

But the Americans would of still dominated Heavyweight boxing all the way up to the 80s IMO with or without faux Marxism in the second world.

If you look at the amateur records there was no Heavyweight champion of the Olympics or World Championship from the old USSR. The only big man from the second world to make it was Mr Stevenson...

The USSR and the old Warsaw pact countries tended to have talented fighters at the lower weights.

[boxingcar]

Eastern Europeans are white. Larry Holmes said that there will never be a white champion with blacks fighting the way they are. Therefore, your argument that Holmes was partially correct is absolutely 100% wrong; a white soviet champion refutes Holmes exactly as much as a white american champion would.

This is correct and I agree. But at the time , Holmes didn't know better. He was obviously reffering to the white fighters he had to deal with in his era , may I remind you that the expression "white hope" was created by the american media.

I was just pointing out a real fact. do the experience yourself. Let's say , there would be no russian invasion of the hw division or simply say they'd still be all banned from participating today...

well , you can clearly notice that not a single white american fighter is there to dominate.

It's just a simple reality. this thread was just some sort of mathemetical observation of the rankings.

there's a saying that goes ,
"the more things change the more they stay the same"...

I think it's very true in that particular case.
In reality , the awaited "white hope" is still nowhere to be seen because all these white fighters are not representing america.

[joeboxer]

Nothing has really changed when you think about it.

If you substract every fighters coming from russia , or to put it simply , every single eastern european fighters.

The heavyweight division would still to this day , be totally dominated by americans.

In other words , if all these guys were gone or not permitted to fight in pro boxing (just like in the good ol golden era or boxing).
the average american fan would still be looking for his white hope in the hw division.

Check this out ,
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

All the american flags are representing an african american athlete with the exception of Ruiz & Arreola.

And that's just for the top 25
If you click on the next page and do the same (substract all white fighters from eastern europe). It's almost the same story.
All the american flags are representing an afro american athlete.
(with the exception of Mike Mollo , Brian Minto ,tye fields)

the same trend goes for basically the entire hw division.So if you take all the white Europeans and the White Americans out of the top 25, there would be no whites? ya...makes sense.