Gene Tunney v Joe Frazier

[McGrain]

How would Tunney do with FOTC Frazier's pressure?

Not that much different in weight betweeen these two, once Tunney stepped up to HW.

And when do you consider Tunney's absolute peak, as embodied in one victory, to have been?

[Bokaj]

I haven't really seen that much of Tunney (except the odd clip from his fights with Dempsey) but there isn't many fighters I would favour over FOTC Frazier. Ali is one of the extremely few fighters who could beat him while retreating, and Tunney would fight a retreating fight. Tunney was no Ali so I see Frazier eventually getting to him and knocking him out. Tunney didn't have the firepower to incapacitate Frazier and wouldn't be able sto stay away for too long. Frazier by KO in 5-7 rounds.

[Jack]

Yeah, I don't think Tunney could handle Frazier. He'd get stopped in about 6 rounds. If he ran, maybe 10. Frazier would be winning these rounds and breaking Tunney down though.

[Little_Mac]

I forsee Tunney spending an unimaginable amount of time breaking down Frazier prefight and discovering a weakness. I think with more modern film he'd do very well.

[McGrain]

I forsee Tunney spending an unimaginable amount of time breaking down Frazier prefight and discovering a weakness. I think with more modern film he'd do very well.

I think that if Tunney is to win here it will indeed be via tactical deployment of what he's got. But how do you do that with Frazier? Frazier is ready to get his face punched repeatedly to win, especially this version.

[Sonny's jab]

I dont doubt Gene Tunney's toughness or his survival instincts and know-how. I'd hesistate to pick any man to win against him by a stoppage.

[McGrain]

I dont doubt Gene Tunney's toughness or his survival instincts and know-how. I'd hesistate to pick any man to win against him by a stoppage.

:lol:

When i opened this thread I suddenly though of you and how you might avoid making an actually pick here.

These are your two very favourites aren't they?

[PhillyPhan69]

I dont doubt Gene Tunney's toughness or his survival instincts and know-how. I'd hesistate to pick any man to win against him by a stoppage.

Good call. I would not favor many to beat Frazier on this night (point in time). However Frazier would be hard pressed to score a KO in this one. I won't rule out a late stoppage, but see a decision that Tunney makes him work hard (or like usual) to earn.

[Sonny's jab]

:lol:

When i opened this thread I suddenly though of you and how you might avoid making an actually pick here.

These are your two very favourites aren't they?

They are two of my favourites, yeah.

I suppose I pick Frazier to win, but Tunney has a great chance too.

Tunney's a bit of an enigma. He's hard to pick and he's hard to pick against.
On one hand he "only" beat a past prime Dempsey, on the other hand he seemed to be a complete package and no one ever got the better of the peak Tunney.

[sthomas]

Tunney by UD. Very smart, skilled, and beat some big hitters in his day. That combo that Dempsey put him down for the long count was brutal, and once he got up, it was almost as if nothing happened. I think Dempsey hit as hard Frazier

[abraq]

I think Dempsey hit as hard Frazier

Wrong. Dempsey hit harder than Frazier. Look at what he did to Willard, Firpo, etc. Frazier hit hard enough. But he was never in the same league as Jack Dempsey as far as punching power was concerned.

[Sardu]

Frazier by mid-round knockout. Dempsey cannot be used as a litmus test for this fight IMO. He had not fought in three years before the first Tunney fight and was stale. Dempsey from 1923 and before would also have beaten Tunney.

Frazier KO 6 Tunney

[mcvey]

This is a real toughie,Frazier was relentless,,fast at getting in ,with quick hands,stamina ,prepared to take punches to get that hook home,there may be question s about his chin at elite level ,but Tunney wouldnt answer them.Tunney had great legs ,used the ring as well as any heavyweight,a smart strategist ,with a cold calculating ring brain ,he had a swift and accurate jab ,and an underated quick short right,top chin and was mentally tough .Stylistically I think this favours Frazier,he was pretty quick at getting into range and his handspeed was good,Tunney had respectable power ,but not earthshattering so ,though he would take punishment Frazier would not be in danger of being kod,imo,I see Tunney loping backwards,Frazier in pursuit,Tunney firing in that quick left ,and crossing his right when he saw the opening,not stopping to clinch,Frazier would be burrowing in,firing that hook going for the body,after 8rds Tunneys legs would start to slow from the body attack,he would be in front ,but winding down a little,Frazier with probably some facial damage would be as fast as ever,as Tunney,s legs came down a gear Frazier would land more solidly and lay some real hurt on the Marine Tunney had balls and skills he would go the route but lose a dec imo.

[Russell]

I can't see Tunney beating the nightmare that was FOTC Frazier, honestly.

[ChrisPontius]

I think Tunney is a master boxer who was ahead of his time and had lightning speed, but how is he going to beat Frazier when he couldn't consistently beat a middleweight Frazier in Greb?

Head to head i think very highly of Smoking Joe. I don't think any heavyweight that can't knock him out would ever beat him. He ate boxers up, took their best shot, pinned them on the ropes, didn't allowed them to breath... he was a true boxer's(mover's) nightmare. Even if Tunney goes the distance (his durability is rather untested at heavyweight), i think he'll be battered and lose a decision. Watch Frazier vs Foster or Frazier vs Ali. You can't hide from Frazier and you won't scare him from coming in either, even if your name is Foreman.

[Calroid]

This is a real toughie,Frazier was relentless,,fast at getting in ,with quick hands,stamina ,prepared to take punches to get that hook home,there may be question s about his chin at elite level ,but Tunney wouldnt answer them.Tunney had great legs ,used the ring as well as any heavyweight,a smart strategist ,with a cold calculating ring brain ,he had a swift and accurate jab ,and an underated quick short right,top chin and was mentally tough .Stylistically I think this favours Frazier,he was pretty quick at getting into range and his handspeed was good,Tunney had respectable power ,but not earthshattering so ,though he would take punishment Frazier would not be in danger of being kod,imo,I see Tunney loping backwards,Frazier in pursuit,Tunney firing in that quick left ,and crossing his right when he saw the opening,not stopping to clinch,Frazier would be burrowing in,firing that hook going for the body,after 8rds Tunneys legs would start to slow from the body attack,he would be in front ,but winding down a little,Frazier with probably some facial damage would be as fast as ever,as Tunney,s legs came down a gear Frazier would land more solidly and lay some real hurt on the Marine Tunney had balls and skills he would go the route but lose a dec imo.

Spot on assessment.:good

I wouldn't be surprised to see Frazier score a late round KO though.

[McGrain]

I think Tunney is a master boxer who was ahead of his time and had lightning speed, but how is he going to beat Frazier when he couldn't consistently beat a middleweight Frazier in Greb?

Head to head i think very highly of Smoking Joe. I don't think any heavyweight that can't knock him out would ever beat him. He ate boxers up, took their best shot, pinned them on the ropes, didn't allowed them to breath... he was a true boxer's(mover's) nightmare. Even if Tunney goes the distance (his durability is rather untested at heavyweight), i think he'll be battered and lose a decision. Watch Frazier vs Foster or Frazier vs Ali. You can't hide from Frazier and you won't scare him from coming in either, even if your name is Foreman.

Yes, good.

[brooklyn1550]

I can't see Tunney being able to effectively deal with Frazier's pressure the entire fight. His head movement and footwork would have helped him to close the distance and nothing Tunney throws could prevent Joe from relentlessly pursuing him. I see a mid round stoppage for Frazier.

[Stonehands89]

Greb tells us alot. Tunney struggled mightily against the smaller swarmer, and although Greb respected Tunney and knew his formidability first hand, Greb performed very well against Tunney with a strategy that was all nonstop agression from every angle.

Frazier was elusive, but he could be timed. He hit far harder than Greb, and as a pressure fighter, he was comparable when you factor everything in. Frazier was also deceptively strong and durable.

Frazier would win, and hurt Tunney along the way... but look for Tunney to solve the puzzle in the rematch.

First bout, money on Joe.
Rematch, money on Gene.

[dpw417]

I don't like this match-up for Tunney at all.
I respect Tunney and his accomplishments, for his era...But I honestly think a prime Frazier would be too much for Gene...In his prime, Frazier was a fast, nasty, swarming fighter.
"I want to hurt him, if I knock him down, I'll stand back, give him a chance to breathe, it's his heart I want.."
Frazier by KO in six
You guys are forgeting how determined and strong Frazier was...IMO this isn't close

[mr. magoo]

A very winnable yet frustrating task for Frazier. Tunney was a trickster and extremely fast for a heavyweight, though he really wasn't a heavyweight in the truest sense. Lookin at how Frazier handled boxers like Ali and Ellis, I'd say he'd have a good chance. He was a pure left hooker which incidently was one of Dempsey's best punches. He had tremendous handspeed and the tendency to reak as much havock as humanly possible when on the inside. Tunney would give him hell though, and take a number of rounds on the scorecards. Few fighters ever truly figured him out, and needless to say, he was never KO'd in over 80 something fights.

I might be inclined to take Frazier by a hairline decision, but wouldn't be surprised to see things go the other way, depending on who's judging.

[Holmes' Jab]

A very winnable yet frustrating task for Frazier. Tunney was a trickster and extremely fast for a heavyweight, though he really wasn't a heavyweight in the truest sense. Lookin at how Frazier handled boxers like Ali and Ellis, I'd say he'd have a good chance. He was a pure left hooker which incidently was one of Dempsey's best punches. He had tremendous handspeed and the tendency to reak as much havock as humanly possible when on the inside. Tunney would give him hell though, and take a number of rounds on the scorecards. Few fighters ever truly figured him out, and needless to say, he was never KO'd in over 80 something fights.

I might be inclined to take Frazier by a hairline decision, but wouldn't be surprised to see things go the other way, depending on who's judging.


Fantastic summary. I'm 50/50 on this one, though (might even lean towards Tunney). :good

[Holmes' Jab]

Dempsey from 1923 and before would also have beaten Tunney.

I find it hard to be convinced by this statement. Personally I think Tunney is just about too hot for Dempsey to handle at virtually any stage. Fact is that past peak or otherwise Dempsey stepped into the ring twice against a slick, speedy, smart fighter who had tonnes of heart and underestimated power. He lost decisively both times. :yep

[mcvey]

Greb tells us alot. Tunney struggled mightily against the smaller swarmer, and although Greb respected Tunney and knew his formidability first hand, Greb performed very well against Tunney with a strategy that was all nonstop agression from every angle.

Frazier was elusive, but he could be timed. He hit far harder than Greb, and as a pressure fighter, he was comparable when you factor everything in. Frazier was also deceptively strong and durable.

Frazier would win, and hurt Tunney along the way... but look for Tunney to solve the puzzle in the rematch.

First bout, money on Joe.
Rematch, money on Gene.
It must be remembered that Tunney weighed 174 1/2.[inside the LH limit ] when he lost to Greb in 1922,in 23 he scaled 174 and took a dec,by 24Tunney was up to175,while Greb came in at 166,that was a draw,by25 Tunney was bigger and had filled out he was181,and gave Greb a beating,for Dempsey Tunney weighed 189 1/2,so between the first Greb fight and the title fight with Dempsey ,Tunney packed on 15 lbs of muscle,in the Greb fights Tunney was still developing as a fighter,and as a man.

[mcvey]

I find it hard to be convinced by this statement. Personally I think Tunney is just about too hot for Dempsey to handle at virtually any stage. Fact is that past peak or otherwise Dempsey stepped into the ring twice against a slick, speedy, smart fighter who had tonnes of heart and underestimated power. He lost decisively both times. :yep
Do you not think that 3 years of inactivity and the high life had something to do with Dempseys performance?

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]I think Tunney is a master boxer who was ahead of his time and had lightning speed, but how is he going to beat Frazier when he couldn't consistently beat a middleweight Frazier in Greb?


I dont have a film reel of Greb in my atic but I am prety sure he was not that much like Frazier. Joe Calzaghe might be a better comparison.

[Holmes' Jab]

Do you not think that 3 years of inactivity and the high life had something to do with Dempseys performance?

Yes, it did. However the wide margin of both Tunneys victories says to me that there's no way at all people should rule out him beating the Dempsey of a few years prior. It would be closer for sure but I think Tunneys knack of stealing rounds down the stretch will stand him in good stead as well as his goods chin and undoubted heart (something like 6-4 in a ten rounder).

[RockyJim]

Tunney was one of ..if not THE headiest fighter ever...smart...strong....the thinking man's fighter.....he lost to Greb..and then avenged his only loss!!

[McGrain]

"I want to hurt him, if I knock him down, I'll stand back, give him a chance to breathe, it's his heart I want.."

A memorable line.

[ChrisPontius]

It must be remembered that Tunney weighed 174 1/2.[inside the LH limit ] when he lost to Greb in 1922,in 23 he scaled 174 and took a dec,by 24Tunney was up to175,while Greb came in at 166,that was a draw,by25 Tunney was bigger and had filled out he was181,and gave Greb a beating,for Dempsey Tunney weighed 189 1/2,so between the first Greb fight and the title fight with Dempsey ,Tunney packed on 15 lbs of muscle,in the Greb fights Tunney was still developing as a fighter,and as a man.

True, but on the flipside, Greb was badly declining during their last fights.


I dont have a film reel of Greb in my atic but I am prety sure he was not that much like Frazier. Joe Calzaghe might be a better comparison.


You may just be right. Calzaghe like Greb has an iron chin, a very high punch output and very good defense.


But let's put it this way: both Greb and Frazier relied on relentless pressure to wear their opponents down and not allow them to get into a rythem. So in that sense, i think Tunney does more than just struggle if Greb gains 40 pounds of natural weight.

[janitor]

But let's put it this way: both Greb and Frazier relied on relentless pressure to wear their opponents down and not allow them to get into a rythem. So in that sense, i think Tunney does more than just struggle if Greb gains 40 pounds of natural weight.

I would not want to pick any small slick heavyweight over Frazier. I think he would eat them up moreso than Marciano.

If we must pick one however Tunney has as good a chance as any.

[Mendoza]

I'll go with Frazier via decision, though Tunney could score a TKO late.

[Stonehands89]

True, but on the flipside, Greb was badly declining during their last fights.
Yes, and he was blind in one eye.


You may just be right. Calzaghe like Greb has an iron chin, a very high punch output and very good defense.

But let's put it this way: both Greb and Frazier relied on relentless pressure to wear their opponents down and not allow them to get into a rythem. So in that sense, i think Tunney does more than just struggle if Greb gains 40 pounds of natural weight.
Absolutely.

[mcvey]

True, but on the flipside, Greb was badly declining during their last fights.



You may just be right. Calzaghe like Greb has an iron chin, a very high punch output and very good defense.


But let's put it this way: both Greb and Frazier relied on relentless pressure to wear their opponents down and not allow them to get into a rythem. So in that sense, i think Tunney does more than just struggle if Greb gains 40 pounds of natural weight.
Greb had 28 fights after meeting Tunney for the last time ,he won 26 of them including wins over Johnny Wison,Mickey Walker a no dec with Rosenbloom ,no10 LH,a win over Allentown Joe Gansno 5 at M,a win over Tony Marullo ,no12 at LH .|A win over Art Weigand ,no11 at M,a win over Jimmy Delaney no8 at LHand a win over Romero Rojas no 4 at H,that isnt a bad decline!Its just possible that the tide turned during the Greb Tunney fights because Tunney got bigger and stronger,and improved as a fighter ,not because of Grebs decline.Greb himself said" let someone else fight Gene ,the sonof a bitch is getting too big and too tough."Greb was what 32 when he died hardly finished.

[ChrisPontius]

Greb had 28 fights after meeting Tunney for the last time ,he won 26 of them including wins over Johnny Wison,Mickey Walker a no dec with Rosenbloom ,no10 LH,a win over Allentown Joe Gansno 5 at M,a win over Tony Marullo ,no12 at LH .|A win over Art Weigand ,no11 at M,a win over Jimmy Delaney no8 at LHand a win over Romero Rojas no 4 at H,that isnt a bad decline!Its just possible that the tide turned during the Greb Tunney fights because Tunney got bigger and stronger,and improved as a fighter ,not because of Grebs decline.Greb himself said" let someone else fight Gene ,the sonof a bitch is getting too big and too tough."Greb was what 32 when he died hardly finished.

Well it's like this: if you have a great fighter, and he loses say 30% of his ability, you are still left with one hell of a fighter. Joe Louis was on a ten fight win streak including over contenders like Brion, Savold and Bivins until he met Marciano, but does that mean he was a great as he used to be? No, but he was still a damn good fighter. Ali, after being outlawed from the ring collected wins over Quarry, Bonavena, Frazier and Foreman, does that mean he was as good as he ever was?

Greb obviously still had a lot left, but not enough to deal with a marvelous entity like Tunney.

I do agree that Tunney's development was a factor as well. But what does that tell us? He couldn't get past Greb when they he had a slight weight advantage. Against Frazier he has a slight weight disadvantage.

[mcvey]

Well it's like this: if you have a great fighter, and he loses say 30% of his ability, you are still left with one hell of a fighter. Joe Louis was on a ten fight win streak including over contenders like Brion, Savold and Bivins until he met Marciano, but does that mean he was a great as he used to be? No, but he was still a damn good fighter. Ali, after being outlawed from the ring collected wins over Quarry, Bonavena, Frazier and Foreman, does that mean he was as good as he ever was?

Greb obviously still had a lot left, but not enough to deal with a marvelous entity like Tunney.

I do agree that Tunney's development was a factor as well. But what does that tell us? He couldn't get past Greb when they he had a slight weight advantage. Against Frazier he has a slight weight disadvantage.
If you look at my pick you will see I went for Frazier,just didnt want Tunneys wins over Greb to be thought of as victories over an over the hill fighter,and that is what badly declining means to me,losing 2 out of 28 ,against rated fighters ,from Middle to heavy doesnt seem like a bad decline to me,Greb had weight problems against Walker,and had no food for two days before their fight,,but his ability was still there,there was probably financial reasons he killed himself to make Middle,the Lhvs werent very marketable.I dont discount your thesis entirely ,I beleive Moore and Walcott were in decline when they met Marciano,and gave such great efforts because though not their best ,they still had some magic dust,so I agree to some extent ,it was just the phrase "badly declining".

[Sonny's jab]

I dont think Greb's relevant.
It's seem like a long-way around a fairly straightforward question.

We have Joe Frazier on film.
We have Gene Tunney on film against a few fighters (inc.the aggressive Jack Dempsey and Tom Heeney, a 200 fighter.).

We dont have any footage of any of the Tunney-Greb fights, and no footage of Greb at all, who's style was considered particuilarly unorthodox and unique.

Greb's a completely obscured path to go down.

My GUESS is that Dempsey would be a better stylistic match to Frazier than Greb would.

I think Tunney stands a great chance against Frazier just going on what I can see on film. Good boxer, good footwork, durable, nice jab and strong uppercut, he'd give Frazier a good fight.

[ChrisPontius]

If you look at my pick you will see I went for Frazier,just didnt want Tunneys wins over Greb to be thought of as victories over an over the hill fighter,and that is what badly declining means to me,losing 2 out of 28 ,against rated fighters ,from Middle to heavy doesnt seem like a bad decline to me,Greb had weight problems against Walker,and had no food for two days before their fight,,but his ability was still there,there was probably financial reasons he killed himself to make Middle,the Lhvs werent very marketable.I dont discount your thesis entirely ,I beleive Moore and Walcott were in decline when they met Marciano,and gave such great efforts because though not their best ,they still had some magic dust,so I agree to some extent ,it was just the phrase "badly declining".

Fair enough.