Louis vs Dempsey ( probably revisited )

[mr. magoo]

This thread has most likely been done several times before, and for all I know, I may even have partaken in it, but don't remember :lol:

Anyway, this is a very important fantasy matchup in my opinion. These two men were not just mere title holders passing through the shadows of time, but rather icons that defined whole generations. Furthermore, their similarities include the fact that they were both all time great punchers, and in a sense, pioneers of the game if you will.

Louis was one of the first African American heavyweight champions. He represented the western world during one of the darkest times in its history. In an age where much racial discrimination still existed, Louis became a universal symbol of freedom and justice that unified people of all different backgrounds. Jack johnson was the first black heavyweight champion, and while I don't want to make this a discussion about the Galveston Giant, his tenure as champion was very different from Louis's. He was certainly an idol of the black community, but not so much in white circles. He was viewed as arrogant, and really served little purpose in being the universal bond that would unite all Americans and other westerners the way that Louis did. Joe reigned for nearly 12 years and compiled an unmatched legacy of 25 title defenses. He also beat fought/beat some 9 past, present or future world champions. His style of fast combination punching has yet to be duplicated. He was one of the best.

Jack Dempsey holds a very high level of importance to American and to boxing. For years prior to his ascent to the title, heavyweight boxing was declining. Jess Willard was basically ignored by the public, and was mainly inactive for nearly 3 years after winning the title. The appealing prescenses of Jeffries and Johnson were long gone. Additionally, the old London prize rules were becomming more and more a thing of the past. The fans needed something new. Something astonishing that would breath life back into their interest in boxing. Dempsey gave it to them. Jack was One of the first heavyweight punchers to truly grasp the concept of using the ring while incorporating a ferocious arsenal of deadly attack simultaneously. He was indeed a beast of new bread. In addition, he was the first to generate multi million dollar fight gates, which inspired many athletes to take up boxing.

Who do you like in this match, and what are your reasons?

[Sardu]

I would take Dempsey because in addition to hitting just as hard and having just as fast hands he had a much better chin than Louis. It is concievable that if Dempsey knocks Louis down early - ala Galento or Braddock - Louis does not make it out of the round. Remember, Dempsey was a shark in his prime and when he got someone hurt he finished them - the battle of the longcount notwithstanding. Of course, Louis could very well have picked Dempsey apart too. When you have two fighters as great as these it is really hard to pick who would win. My pick prime on prime would be Dempsey though because that is the kind of fight it would be.

Dempsey KO 5 Louis

[PhillyPhan69]

I like dempsey better and find him under rated (but that is another thread!)....But I would lean towards louis in this encounter. Dempsey landing early and dropping Louis in the manner some lesser fighters have (don't mean to bash him!), wouldn't surprise me...he has the tools to follow up and end this early as well (and maybe late?)...but I just see prime for prime, Louis being to skilled...I would lean towards louis in a decision...but would not be shocked to see dempsey pull this off either...how's that for riding the fence!

[Russell]

I'd favor Dempsey.

[mr. magoo]

These are all very good responses, and all have good reasons within them. I am however, a bit surprised that no Louis advocates have come forth.

This would be a very tough match for me to chose from as well, but I might be inclined to going against the norm here and pick Louis. Although neither of these men ever faced an opponent of the other's calibur, I think Louis defeated a wider array of better fighters overall. Remember, Louis defeated at least 6 men who at one time or another were world champions. He also remained competitve to a very late stage in his life, and it took another all time great to send him into retirement. Some have validly pointed out that Louis was floored by men like Galento, Baer, and Braddock, then proceeded to say that if it was Dempsey in there, he'd finish joe. Dempsey had his moments too, and being knocked out of the ring by Firpo was one of them. In addition, while Joe never faced a man like Jack, he certainly fought a number of guys who were closer in quality to him than did Dempsey to Louis, if that makes any sense. Dempsey certainly had more footwork, but Louis was the king of combination punchers and has my vote as THEE greatest puncher of all time.

Louis by KO or stoppage late.

[PhillyPhan69]

These are all very good responses, and all have good reasons within them. I am however, a bit surprised that no Louis advocates have come forth.

This would be a very tough match for me to chose from as well, but I might be inclined to going against the norm here and pick Louis. Although neither of these men ever faced an opponent of the other's calibur, I think Louis defeated a wider array of better fighters overall. Remember, Louis defeated at least 6 men who at one time or another were world champions. He also remained competitve to a very late stage in his life, and it took another all time great to send him into retirement. Some have validly pointed out that Louis was floored by men like Galento, Baer, and Braddock, then proceeded to say that if it was Dempsey in there, he'd finish joe. Dempsey had his moments too, and being knocked out of the ring by Firpo was one of them. In addition, while Joe never faced a man like Jack, he certainly fought a number of guys who were closer in quality to him than did Dempsey to Louis, if that makes any sense. Dempsey certainly had more footwork, but Louis was the king of combination punchers and has my vote as THEE greatest puncher of all time.

Louis by KO or stoppage late.

All good observations...(and I did pick louis! albeit by decision)...pretty much similar reasons to why I would pick louis...I still can't call Jack a no chance...but i wouldn't pick it!

[Sonny's jab]

I think it would be a short fight. Brilliant and explosive, I dont see it going more than 4 or 5 rounds.

It's one of those perfect match-ups where I really cannot favour one over the other.

Imagine the atmosphere, anticipation, that "butterflies" feeling, as these two stand in opposite corners waiting for that opening bell.

Hopefully, one day in my lifetime, an evil scientist will get hold of some of their DNA, clone them, and train and condition them to fight from birth. Then the world will get to see this fight for real. :lol: whoohahahaha ! (Evil laugh)

[mcvey]

This thread has most likely been done several times before, and for all I know, I may even have partaken in it, but don't remember :lol:

Anyway, this is a very important fantasy matchup in my opinion. These two men were not just mere title holders passing through the shadows of time, but rather icons that defined whole generations. Furthermore, their similarities include the fact that they were both all time great punchers, and in a sense, pioneers of the game if you will.

Louis was one of the first African American heavyweight champions. He represented the western world during one of the darkest times in its history. In an age where much racial discrimination still existed, Louis became a universal symbol of freedom and justice that unified people of all different backgrounds. Jack johnson was the first black heavyweight champion, and while I don't want to make this a discussion about the Galveston Giant, his tenure as champion was very different from Louis's. He was certainly an idol of the black community, but not so much in white circles. He was viewed as arrogant, and really served little purpose in being the universal bond that would unite all Americans and other westerners the way that Louis did. Joe reigned for nearly 12 years and compiled an unmatched legacy of 25 title defenses. He also beat fought/beat some 9 past, present or future world champions. His style of fast combination punching has yet to be duplicated. He was one of the best.

Jack Dempsey holds a very high level of importance to American and to boxing. For years prior to his ascent to the title, heavyweight boxing was declining. Jess Willard was basically ignored by the public, and was mainly inactive for nearly 3 years after winning the title. The appealing prescenses of Jeffries and Johnson were long gone. Additionally, the old London prize rules were becomming more and more a thing of the past. The fans needed something new. Something astonishing that would breath life back into their interest in boxing. Dempsey gave it to them. Jack was One of the first heavyweight punchers to truly grasp the concept of using the ring while incorporating a ferocious arsenal of deadly attack simultaneously. He was indeed a beast of new bread. In addition, he was the first to generate multi million dollar fight gates, which inspired many athletes to take up boxing.

Who do you like in this match, and what are your reasons?
Dempsey early ,inside three probably ,but if Joe makes it past that he could take control with his jab and fast combos.

[fists of fury]

Last time, I predicted a stoppage win for Louis in 7. Still sticking with that.

Better and sharper puncher, threw straighter punches, better defense.

I think he'd tag Dempsey coming in.

[dmt]

I agree they were both very popular and are two of my most favourite fighters. If i had to pick one id give a slight edge to Louis but anything could happen and Manassa Mauler had a good shot here

[janitor]

Last time, I predicted a stoppage win for Louis in 7. Still sticking with that.

Better and sharper puncher, threw straighter punches, better defense.

I think he'd tag Dempsey coming in.

This is my thinking but none of my money is going down.

[mcvey]

This is my thinking but none of my money is going down.
Like you I wouldnt bet on it,but Id sell my house to watch it!

[JIm Broughton]

Very difficult fight to call imo but I'll say this, IF Dempsey decks Joe early in the fight and Joe manages to get up, Dempsey will finish him plain and simple. We're not talking Tony Galento or Jim Braddock or Tami Mauriello here, we're talking about one of the most ferocious HW champions of all time and a great finisher to boot. Dempsey was fast on the attack and would jump all over Joe as soon as he got up. He simply would'nt let him recover. Joe was'nt a dancer like Tunney who could get on his bicycle and play for time until his head cleared. Joe would stand right in front of Jack and try to fight back or cover up and that spells disaster for Joe in my book. Still in all though this is just one possible scenario in a fight that has many possible outcomes. A tough one to call to say the least.

[Bummy Davis]

I think this is a war, Dempsey was fast and had power, Louis may taste the flloor early but get up to catch Jack with a few of his classic combos. I see this fight going into the 10th to 15 th rd and I favor Joe but this is a tough win with al ot of back and forth ebb and flow...but I think Joe take it

[RoccoMarciano]

I think this is a war, Dempsey was fast and had power, Louis may taste the flloor early but get up to catch Jack with a few of his classic combos. I see this fight going into the 10th to 15 th rd and I favor Joe but this is a tough win with al ot of back and forth ebb and flow...but I think Joe take it

When did Dempsey ever face a fighter of Louis calibre? Answer, never!

I feel Dempsey, and what he accomplished at HW is overrated to the extreme. Trying to compare him with Louis is like camparing an apple to an orange. If Dempsey had a resume to compare, my view would be different, the only problem is, he doesn't!

I'm not really arguing with your post, Bummy, I do think Dempsey is a little overrated though.

[radianttwilight]

In this scenario the neutral corner rule plays a big role.

If it's not in effect, then Dempsey could very well knock Louis down once early and never let him get back up, but without it I would favor Louis to survive.

[Russell]

I feel Dempsey, and what he accomplished at HW is overrated to the extreme. Trying to compare him with Louis is like camparing an apple to an orange. If Dempsey had a resume to compare, my view would be different, the only problem is, he doesn't!



Because Miske and, Capentier and Gibbons weren't top level competition, right? 2 out of 3 that Dempsey dismantled as his career slowed down to a halt.

I feel Dempsey's opposition being discredited is even worse than people who attack Marciano's.

Guy DIDN'T fight bad fighters.

[RoccoMarciano]

He beat a tomato can for his "championship"... lost to a good boxer at the end. Only defended his "title" when he wanted.

Let's see, if I only defend against who I want, when I want, I'll be HW champion for a long while. Correct?

I'm sure the Dempsey fans won't like this, but that is what he did.

[mr. magoo]

Guy DIDN'T fight bad fighters.

Perhaps not, but when compared to Joe Louis, I'd say his comp was rather slim.

Louis defeated at least 6 men who at one point or another held the lineal title, and basically destroyed all of them. The only man who Dempsey ever beat that had his hands on the title was Jess Wilard, who was 37 years old and hadn't fought in some 3 years, plus was never very good even at his best.

Louis drastically takes the cake if we're talking about competition comparisons.

[JohnThomas1]

Louis KO2

[Sonny's jab]

Perhaps not, but when compared to Joe Louis, I'd say his comp was rather slim.

Louis defeated at least 6 men who at one point or another held the lineal title, and basically destroyed all of them. The only man who Dempsey ever beat that had his hands on the title was Jess Wilard, who was 37 years old and hadn't fought in some 3 years, plus was never very good even at his best.

Louis drastically takes the cake if we're talking about competition comparisons.

Dempsey beat Sharkey too.

Joe Louis came along at a time where they had been 5 lineal champions in the last 5 years (1930-1935), so he beat those guys.
When Dempsey became ranked there had been 2 lineal champions in the last 10 years, and they were both old men, one was in exile outside of America, the other held the title.

I think Dempsey's competition gets unduly attacked.
He didn't fight Wills or Greb, and he didn't defend his title enough, and he fought some easy fights. But he beat some good fighters too, destroyed some of them, guys who deserved to be ranked among the top 3 or 4 men in the world at the time. Wins over Fulton, Gibbons and Sharkey stand out.

But, yes, Joe Louis had superior depth of good competition. Louis beat a higher number of top fighters.

[McGrain]

Louis, early in a thriller.

[dmt]

Louis KO2so it took Louis 8 rounds to get rid of a crouching fighter likle Godoy and now he is somehow going to knocmkout Dempsey in two rounds?

[Holmes' Jab]

Louis TKO6.

[JohnThomas1]

so it took Louis 8 rounds to get rid of a crouching fighter likle Godoy and now he is somehow going to knocmkout Dempsey in two rounds?

That's a very limited way to look at things, so let me join the theme.

Lets go other ways.

Tell me, had Godoy EVER been stopped by anyone before fighting Louis?

Then tell me, had Dempsey ever been stopped, and if so in what round?

Singling out an isolated incident to suit our own personal view is not quite the way to go.

Louis is a chance of knocking most any fighter out in 2 rounds if the cards fall that way, and contrary to some i do not believe Dempsey is the heavyweight Roberto Duran - far from it. He'd be right there for Joe, and indeed force him to fire early. Dangerous periods early for both with Louis' incredibly tight and pinpoint punching sealing the deal.

[mr. magoo]

Singling out an isolated incident to suit our own personal view is not quite the way to go.

Oh common, its an excellent way to go. In fact, its THEE way to go mate. What's wrong with employing a little selection bias every now and again if it helps us to get our way?

Here, let me give it a try and then you can evaluate my efforts:

Muhammad Ali took 15 rounds to beat Alfredo Evangelista, but Holmes managed to stop him, therefore the only logical conclusion is that Holmes was the better fighter....Right.....:D

[JohnThomas1]

Oh common, its an excellent way to go. In fact, its THEE way to go mate. What's wrong with employing a little selection bias every now and again if it helps us to get our way?

Here, let me give it a try and then you can evaluate my efforts:

Muhammad Ali took 15 rounds to beat Alfredo Evangelista, but Holmes managed to stop him, therefore the only logical conclusion is that Holmes was the better fighter....Right.....:D

:lol:

You follow my drift, that's for sure!

:yep

:good

[mr. magoo]

=Sonny's jab]Dempsey beat Sharkey too.

Joe Louis came along at a time where they had been 5 lineal champions in the last 5 years (1930-1935), so he beat those guys.
When Dempsey became ranked there had been 2 lineal champions in the last 10 years, and they were both old men, one was in exile outside of America, the other held the title.

I think Dempsey's competition gets unduly attacked.
He didn't fight Wills or Greb, and he didn't defend his title enough, and he fought some easy fights. But he beat some good fighters too, destroyed some of them, guys who deserved to be ranked among the top 3 or 4 men in the world at the time. Wins over Fulton, Gibbons and Sharkey stand out.



Yeah I forgot about Sharkey. Thanks for the mention.

I don't want to criticize Dempsey's opposition, I only want to emphasize Joe Louis's. I'm pretty impressed by what he did and who he fought.

As you already well know he beat Joe Walcott, Jim Braddock, Primo Carnera, Max Baer, Max Schmeling, and Jack Sharkey, who were all title holders and still reasonably competitive when he fought them. He also beat John Henry Lewis and Billy Conn, both were lightheavyweight champions.

That is a hell of good bunch of quality fighters in my opinion.

[Sonny's jab]

On the other hand, it could be argued that there were so many ex-champions around for Louis to beat because none of them were good enough to hold on to the title.
Which implies that their "ex-title holder" status doesn't define a quality necessarily superior to other mere "contenders".

[Sonny's jab]

contrary to some i do not believe Dempsey is the heavyweight Roberto Duran - far from it.

Ray Arcel called Duran "the lightweight Dempsey".
Ray Arcel was full of praise for Duran, and full of praise for the skills and abilities of Dempsey.

But if you dont see it, that's cool.
I've realized that we all just have different perceptions.

I think Lennox Lewis was (to over-state it) an awkward but powerful moose, but the majority of people here tell me he was a "good mover", with "a great jab" and "a lot more skillful than (for example),Sonny Liston".
It's a difference in perception.

[mr. magoo]

On the other hand, it could be argued that there were so many ex-champions around for Louis to beat because none of them were good enough to hold on to the title.
Which implies that their "ex-title holder" status doesn't define a quality necessarily superior to other mere "contenders".

Well, I suppose the best way to determine that is to look at their credentials.

Max Schmeling- defeated a prime Louis, was a Euro Champ and a hall of famer.

Max Baer- Commonly appears on many peoples all time great puncher's list and defeated some very highly regarded fighters such as Primo Carnera, Max Schmeling, etc, and was an extremely feared man at the time. also a hall of famer.

Primo Carnera- Not the prettiest looking fighter on film, and the integrity of his career success questionable, but he was a giant among past heavyweight no less, and Louis utterly destroyed him.

James Braddock- Louis's win over him is a bit tainted by the fact that Braddock was coming off of a two year layoff, and managed to floor joe. Plus he had a career history of being frequently injured, and now had health issues which included some pretty advanced arthritis. He still however overcame all odds to beat a very formidable Max Baer, and was never knocked out before meeting Louis. Joe took care of that of course.

Joe Walcott- Huge win for Louis. The first fight may have been a robbery, but the second fight was a hall mark victory for the Brown bomber. Walcott was arguably at his peak for the Louis fights, and had climbed his way up the contention latter by beating a large number of good fighters both black and white.

Jack Sharkey- Don't know much about Sharkey, but he was a titlist for a brief period and Joe was coming off a devastating loss to Schmeling just two months earlier. To get back in the ring after getting a bad ass kicking and beat a former world champion in 3 rounds, 8 weeks later says quite a bit in my opinion.

[dmt]

Its not a case of picking one incident. Louis to me seemed like a fighter who always took his time with crouching fighters. And the Godoy comparison i made because its the closest thing in terms of style.

Yes Dempsey was knocked out once in the first round, before his prime, when he didnt have great training etc but hey i suppose thats picking one incident too.

[Bummy Davis]

When did Dempsey ever face a fighter of Louis calibre? Answer, never!

I feel Dempsey, and what he accomplished at HW is overrated to the extreme. Trying to compare him with Louis is like camparing an apple to an orange. If Dempsey had a resume to compare, my view would be different, the only problem is, he doesn't!

I'm not really arguing with your post, Bummy, I do think Dempsey is a little overrated though.

Dempsey never fought a fighter like Dempsey and I dont think Louis ever fought a fighter like Dempsey...Dempsey was a talent, conditioned, ripped,hardpunching and fast but Louis was all of those and perhaps the best Power/Combo puncher ever....I know a lot of the things that Dempsey did like being an inactive Champion and avoiding a few like Wills but a lot of that was not Jacks fault. Take a look at the champions that were considered great before his time Johnson, Now Johnson never gave the deserving black fighters of his era a chance. I beleive it was for the same reason Dempsey did not fight Wills the $$$$ was not there. Look at Jeffries he fought all but neither Jeffries or Johnson or any other champion before Dempsey set a example like Joe Louis who fought all Challengers, sizes,shapes and colors. I think Louis was the best ATG Heavy, I have him as # 1 but I think if you put Jack Dempsey in Louis time his natural Power, Killer instinct,and speed would make him an incredible foe. I think if you look at the history of the division after Louis you would see that Most of the Champions fought the best around in there time, Walcott,Charles,Marciano,Patterson,Liston,Ali,Frazier, then a lot of the other champs to come used the Other champion and alphabet titles as an excuse not to fight the best of there time,Larry Holmes being one of them, RIDDICK BOWE being another one. One thing I have to say about Vlad is he is trying to unify and I think Lewis wanted to also but not by fighting Byrd who he felt was a JR champ

[dmt]

And i do pick Louis, though i do think its not an early round blowout as some here seem to think

[Dempsey1238]

Dempsey never fought a fighter like Dempsey and I dont think Louis ever fought a fighter like Dempsey...Dempsey was a talent, conditioned, ripped,hardpunching and fast but Louis was all of those and perhaps the best Power/Combo puncher ever....I know a lot of the things that Dempsey did like being an inactive Champion and avoiding a few like Wills but a lot of that was not Jacks fault. Take a look at the champions that were considered great before his time Johnson, Now Johnson never gave the deserving black fighters of his era a chance. I beleive it was for the same reason Dempsey did not fight Wills the $$$$ was not there. Look at Jeffries he fought all but neither Jeffries or Johnson or any other champion before Dempsey set a example like Joe Louis who fought all Challengers, sizes,shapes and colors. I think Louis was the best ATG Heavy, I have him as # 1 but I think if you put Jack Dempsey in Louis time his natural Power, Killer instinct,and speed would make him an incredible foe. I think if you look at the history of the division after Louis you would see that Most of the Champions fought the best around in there time, Walcott,Charles,Marciano,Patterson,Liston,Ali,Frazier, then a lot of the other champs to come used the Other champion and alphabet titles as an excuse not to fight the best of there time,Larry Holmes being one of them, RIDDICK BOWE being another one. One thing I have to say about Vlad is he is trying to unify and I think Lewis wanted to also but not by fighting Byrd who he felt was a JR champ


Patterson?? Patterson?? He fought the best of his time as champ?? Some one must of forgot to tell Patterson that, because last time I check, Folly, Machen and a shewn of other heavyweight contenders, didnt get a title shot.
Patterson DID not fight the best of his time as champ. And that imo should hurt him in the rankings.

[Bummy Davis]

Patterson?? Patterson?? He fought the best of his time as champ?? Some one must of forgot to tell Patterson that, because last time I check, Folly, Machen and a shewn of other heavyweight contenders, didnt get a title shot.
Patterson DID not fight the best of his time as champ. And that imo should hurt him in the rankings.



Well, he was a little busy in his 3 fight series with Ingomar J. who KO'd Machen in1 rd. then he fought Sonny Liston 2 times and I think he would have been better off fighting Foley, so I can not call Floyd a ducking Champ because Ingo and Sonny were no slouches

[Dempsey1238]

That was not until the END of his rein about. Patterson had plenty of time to defeat these men between 1956-1959 before Ingo. Bottom line, Patterson didnt fight them. No exuses in this regard, he had plenty of time.

[Bummy Davis]

That was not until the END of his rein about. Patterson had plenty of time to defeat these men between 1956-1959 before Ingo. Bottom line, Patterson didnt fight them. No exuses in this regard, he had plenty of time.


Yea, I was hesitant to put Floyd on the list but I felt fight Ingo and Sonny qualified him but he had his share of soft touches who he struggled with or at least hit the floor against but its not how you start its how you finish. Proberly the most solid champs for fighting the best was Louis,Marciano,Ali,Frazier but the men they beat also fought the best

[Sardu]

Very difficult fight to call imo but I'll say this, IF Dempsey decks Joe early in the fight and Joe manages to get up, Dempsey will finish him plain and simple. We're not talking Tony Galento or Jim Braddock or Tami Mauriello here, we're talking about one of the most ferocious HW champions of all time and a great finisher to boot. Dempsey was fast on the attack and would jump all over Joe as soon as he got up. He simply would'nt let him recover. Joe was'nt a dancer like Tunney who could get on his bicycle and play for time until his head cleared. Joe would stand right in front of Jack and try to fight back or cover up and that spells disaster for Joe in my book. Still in all though this is just one possible scenario in a fight that has many possible outcomes. A tough one to call to say the least.

Great post!

[JohnThomas1]

Ray Arcel called Duran "the lightweight Dempsey".
Ray Arcel was full of praise for Duran, and full of praise for the skills and abilities of Dempsey.

But if you dont see it, that's cool.
I've realized that we all just have different perceptions.

I think Lennox Lewis was (to over-state it) an awkward but powerful moose, but the majority of people here tell me he was a "good mover", with "a great jab" and "a lot more skillful than (for example),Sonny Liston".
It's a difference in perception.

Fair post mate.

[JohnThomas1]

And i do pick Louis, though i do think its not an early round blowout as some here seem to think

Marciano comes to fight, and win. He seldom pisses about. His fights could certainly contain some fearsome early exchanges, and this is why i predict a short fight. I mean with Louis being seen by some as a slow starter why wouldn'y Dempsey start quick? I also know he lacked respect for Louis as a fighter, which plays into Louis' hands no matter which way i look at it.

[mr. magoo]

Marciano comes to fight, and win. He seldom pisses about. His fights could certainly contain some fearsome early exchanges, and this is why i predict a short fight. I mean with Louis being seen by some as a slow starter why wouldn'y Dempsey start quick? I also know he lacked respect for Louis as a fighter, which plays into Louis' hands no matter which way i look at it.

That's the way to go mate.:good

[JohnThomas1]

That's the way to go mate.:good

Call me biased but i can't see any flaws at all in my argument

:lol:

[mr. magoo]

Call me biased but i can't see any flaws at all in my argument

:lol:

All kidding asside mate, I don't see any biased flaws in your argument either. I agree that Louis definately faced some dangerous fighters who were quick starters and big punchers. If nothing else, he certainly took on a much larger array of better fighters than JD ever did. When sizing them up, Louis beat not one but several men who were world title claimants. The other guy can't make this statement.

That's the way we need to go.

[RoccoMarciano]

Louis was all of those and perhaps the best Power/Combo puncher ever....

[/qoute]
I agree

[quote]
Johnson, Now Johnson never gave the deserving black fighters of his era a chance.
True.
Joe Louis who fought all Challengers, sizes,shapes and colors. I think Louis was the best ATG Heavy, I have him as # 1
Louis was a great champion

then a lot of the other champs to come used the Other champion and alphabet titles as an excuse not to fight the best of there time,Larry Holmes being one of them Holmes came along at a unique time to be sure.

[dmt]

Call me biased but i can't see any flaws at all in my argument

:lol:well for starters you seemed to have written Marciano in your argument whereas you should have written Dempsey :D and I dont understand the point that he did not have respect for Louis as a fighter :huh

[JohnThomas1]

well for starters you seemed to have written Marciano in your argument whereas you should have written Dempsey :D and I dont understand the point that he did not have respect for Louis as a fighter :huh

I've seen some Dempsey comments on Louis, have you?