Jeffries Sharkey II, there will be war.

[janitor]

I offer up this acount of Jeffries Sharkey II because if offers some interesting insights into the fight. Anybody interested in the period would be well advised to read it.

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[apollack]

Can you site your source and date please?

[McGrain]

WHERE would we be without you Janitor?

Nice.

[mcvey]

I offer up this acount of Jeffries Sharkey II because if offers some interesting insights into the fight. Anybody interested in the period would be well advised to read it.

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Very informative and interesting read Janitor ,thanks,it seems Siler rendered a just decision.It must have been hell under those Krieg lights ,both men had their hair singed by the heat ,Jeffries said he was "sure one of us would be killed",they dont make them like that today,imagine little 5 8 Sharkey,giving away 32 lbs ,tearing into the strongest fighter in the world round after round. In one round it is said Sharkey landed a stupendous blow and stepped back shouting ,"fall damn you",Jeffries was truly an Iron Man.And as he said "No braver man than Tom Sharkey ever lived",that goes for both of them ,enduring that scrap.

[Mendoza]

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[guilalah]

Thank you very much, Janitor and Mendoza!

Thoughts:

With all due respect to T. Sharkey, imagine if Jeffries left had not been lamed. I think Jeff, at his best, would generally stop Sharkey.

Interesting, though, that Sharkey's left seemed to get to into Jeffries. The training films I've seen give me the impression that Jeffries liked to draw rights, and ducked towards his own right to avoid them. They also showed him avoiding left swings by pulling back.

[janitor]

Can you site your source and date please?

This is from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle 04/11/1899.

I like it because it fleshes out some strategic details of the fight.

[mcvey]

Thank you very much, Janitor and Mendoza!

Thoughts:

With all due respect to T. Sharkey, imagine if Jeffries left had not been lamed. I think Jeff, at his best, would generally stop Sharkey.

Interesting, though, that Sharkey's left seemed to get to into Jeffries. The training films I've seen give me the impression that Jeffries liked to draw rights, and ducked towards his own right to avoid them. They also showed him avoiding left swings by pulling back.
Ive heard that Jeffries was nursing a damaged left but havent seen any details of it,any info?If it was severe ,he did well to contain ,what by all accounts was a possessed Sharkey.

[janitor]

Ive heard that Jeffries was nursing a damaged left but havent seen any details of it,any info?

While looking for this article I found one printed in the run up to the fight by Jeffries camp. The give assurances that his left arm is recovered and will not affect the outcome of the fight.

Read that whatever way you will.

[Mendoza]

While looking for this article I found one printed in the run up to the fight by Jeffries camp. The give assurances that his left arm is recovered and will not affect the outcome of the fight.

Read that whatever way you will.

It true, Jeffries went into the Sharkey match with a less than 100% left arm, and re-aggregated the injury in round two when he floored Sharkey with a hook that sent Sharkey flat on the back of his head.

The news read and left over film does not show Jeffries using his hook or left much. Jeffries won the match hurt. If he was 100%, it is likely he finishes Shakrey.

By the way, did anyone catch Jeffires vs Sharkey sparring as older men in the legendary champions documentary I posted here? It is rare footage! The film is up close and clear. Both could still move a bit in the 1920's.

[mcvey]

It true, Jeffries went into the Sharkey match with a less than 100% left arm, and re-aggregated the injury in round two when he floored Sharkey with a hook that sent Sharkey flat on the back of his head.

The news read and left over film does not show Jeffries using his hook or left much. Jeffries won the match hurt. If he was 100%, it is likely he finishes Shakrey.

By the way, did anyone catch Jeffires vs Sharkey sparring as older men in the legendary champions documentary I posted here? It is rare footage! The film is up close and clear. Both could still move a bit in the 1920's.
No can you post it again M? ps did you read the little info on Jackson about his puntured lung,I was unaware of it.

[Mendoza]

No can you post it again M? ps did you read the little info on Jackson about his puntured lung,I was unaware of it.

Post what again? The Jackson vs Slavin news read, or Jeffries vs Sharkey sparring as older men in the 1920's? Jeffries and his camp said he hurt his shoulder messing around with a medicne ball, and had to postpone the 2nd Sharkey match more than once. Jeffries said, let's just fight already so he went into the match less than 100%..

Yes, I read Jackson hurt his rib in the Slavin win.

[guilalah]

It will be interesting to see if Apollacks book reports much concerning the state of Jeffries left arm for the defense against Sharkey.

I probably hyperbolized when I refered to it as 'lame'. :nono

[mcvey]

Post what again? The Jackson vs Slavin news read, or Jeffries vs Sharkey sparring as older men in the 1920's? Jeffries and his camp said he hurt his shoulder messing around with a medicne ball, and had to postpone the 2nd Sharkey match more than once. Jeffries said, let's just fight already so he went into the match less than 100%..

Yes, I read Jackson hurt his rib in the Slavin win.
The Jeffries Sharkey sparring.

[Mendoza]

The Jeffries Sharkey sparring.


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Give it a little over a minute. You'll see the two sparring as old men.

[BIG DEE]

BIG DEE HERE= What you guys haven`t picked up on from the report is Jeffries using his right with jabs and uppercuts. That on report would lead
one to believe that Jeffries turned SOUTHPAW because of his bum left arm.

[OLD FOGEY]

BIG DEE HERE= What you guys haven`t picked up on from the report is Jeffries using his right with jabs and uppercuts. That on report would lead
one to believe that Jeffries turned SOUTHPAW because of his bum left arm.

The New York Times round by round indicates Jeffries was consistently using his left.

Maybe I missed something, but neither of these newspaper mentioned that Jeffries had a bad left nor did either reporter notice Jeff favoring his left enough to put it in their report on the fight.

I would question whether Jeff's left was hurt that badly. Jeff was a great and courageous champion, but he always had an excuse of some sort for every bad performance. He hurt his hand against Armstrong. He hurt his arm against Sharkey. Fitz loaded his gloves. Jeff was poisoned against Johnson. I think these excuses have to be taken with a grain of salt.

[Senya13]

Jeffries and Sharkey were supposed to meet on October 27, but on October 14 it was reported that Jeffries sprained his left arm while practicing with medicine ball with his brother. It was examined by a doctor, and he said he'd be unable to fight on October 27, and Jeffries' manager managed to persuade Sharkey's to postpone the fight for one week, until Nov. 3. See NY Times for Oct. 15 and Oct. 18 for news clippings, or any other newspapers for similar dates, many of them printed these news.

[Mendoza]

The New York Times round by round indicates Jeffries was consistently using his left.

Maybe I missed something, but neither of these newspaper mentioned that Jeffries had a bad left nor did either reporter notice Jeff favoring his left enough to put it in their report on the fight.

I would question whether Jeff's left was hurt that badly. Jeff was a great and courageous champion, but he always had an excuse of some sort for every bad performance. He hurt his hand against Armstrong. He hurt his arm against Sharkey. Fitz loaded his gloves. Jeff was poisoned against Johnson. I think these excuses have to be taken with a grain of salt.

OLD FOGEY,

Jeffries did brake his thumb vs Armstrong. He did not use hand wraps in all of his fights. Jeffries was not 100% going into the Sharkey match. See the news clipings. It appears Fitz did do something to his gloves in the second match. As for the posioning, no comment.

[mcvey]

OLD FOGEY,

Jeffries did brake his thumb vs Armstrong. He did not use hand wraps in all of his fights. Jeffries was not 100% going into the Sharkey match. See the news clipings. It appears Fitz did do something to his gloves in the second match. As for the posioning, no comment.
Jeffries is supposed to have hurt his hand on Armstrongs head,I think this is accepted as fact,I dont know to what extent Jeffries was inconvenienced by a bad arm against Sharkey but would like to.The handwraps of Fitz were allegedly powdered with plaster paris,this doesnt work as has been proved,and even if it did it would break the hand of the wearer.Jeffries followers alleged he had been given drugged tea prior to his fight with Jeffries,Jeff despondant and miserable did not deny this at the time .I believe he even went so far as to be quoted in print,he later retracted this claim,similar to Foreman after Zaire. Jeffries was drugged in Reno ,and Johnson supplied the ko drops,prime for prime it would have been a hell of a fight.

[OLD FOGEY]

OLD FOGEY,

Jeffries did brake his thumb vs Armstrong. He did not use hand wraps in all of his fights. Jeffries was not 100% going into the Sharkey match. See the news clipings. It appears Fitz did do something to his gloves in the second match. As for the posioning, no comment.

I wish I were computer literate enough to pull the New York Times report on the fight, but here is the gist of it:

"Armstrong, who is at best not more than a third-rate fighter, surprised the spectators, as well as Jeffries, by giving an exhibition which, while not first class, was nevertheless sufficiently interesting to keep Jeffries guessing.
"The Californian, in short, proved a disappointment to his friends, and, while he landed several good body and face blows on Armstrong, he was slow and clumsy, and recieved not a little punishment in return. At the end of the stated tenth round, Armstrong was far from being knocked out.
"The explanation for this may lie in the fact that at the conclusion of the bout, it was announced that Jeffries' arm had been broken and that he would be unable to engage O'Donnell, as had been his intention.
"Of course, the spectators were disappointed, and many were inclined to cast doubt on the accuracy of the report of the fractured arm. Some of the spectators say that if Armstrong had been properly handled he would have defeated Jeffries."

I could find no follow up article indicating that Jeff really had an injury. It is certainly possible that Jeffries was spent after an unexpectedly tough fight against Armstrong and his management did not want to risk a second bout with a fresh opponent. The description of Armstrong as third-rate is interesting. Armstrong certainly had a checkered record, but his ko's of Slavin, Everett, and Martin point to his being at least a dangerous trial horse.

[Mendoza]

I wish I were computer literate enough to pull the New York Times report on the fight, but here is the gist of it:

"Armstrong, who is at best not more than a third-rate fighter, surprised the spectators, as well as Jeffries, by giving an exhibition which, while not first class, was nevertheless sufficiently interesting to keep Jeffries guessing.
"The Californian, in short, proved a disappointment to his friends, and, while he landed several good body and face blows on Armstrong, he was slow and clumsy, and recieved not a little punishment in return. At the end of the stated tenth round, Armstrong was far from being knocked out.
"The explanation for this may lie in the fact that at the conclusion of the bout, it was announced that Jeffries' arm had been broken and that he would be unable to engage O'Donnell, as had been his intention.
"Of course, the spectators were disappointed, and many were inclined to cast doubt on the accuracy of the report of the fractured arm. Some of the spectators say that if Armstrong had been properly handled he would have defeated Jeffries."

I could find no follow up article indicating that Jeff really had an injury. It is certainly possible that Jeffries was spent after an unexpectedly tough fight against Armstrong and his management did not want to risk a second bout with a fresh opponent. The description of Armstrong as third-rate is interesting. Armstrong certainly had a checkered record, but his ko's of Slavin, Everett, and Martin point to his being at least a dangerous trial horse.

Jeffries said he broke his thumb early in the match. He finished the 10 rounds with Armstrong, then opted not to fight O'Donnell next. O'Donnell was a pretty good fighter as well. The result was boos from the fans who paid to see two ten round fights.

I agree, Armstrong was good enough. The press in those days often referred to black fighters as second or thrid rate, unless they were champion. For whatever reason, Armstrong never got a crack at the colored title vs Johnson.

[OLD FOGEY]

Jeffries said he broke his thumb early in the match. He finished the 10 rounds with Armstrong, then opted not to fight O'Donnell next. O'Donnell was a pretty good fighter as well. The result was boos from the fans who paid to see two ten round fights.

I agree, Armstrong was good enough. The press in those days often referred to black fighters as second or thrid rate, unless they were champion. For whatever reason, Armstrong never got a crack at the colored title vs Johnson.

"Jeffries said he broke his thumb early in the match."

Yes, he did say that, or was it his arm? as the New York Times reported?

Jeffries cleaned out the division and did not lose until he came back at 35. It is certainly not unreasonable to rate him one of the two or so best heavyweights of the first half of the 20th century. Certain papers of his own day judged him better than Sullivan. That said, I still take these rather frequent claims of injuries, or dirty dealing by his opponents, with a grain of salt.

[Mendoza]

"Jeffries said he broke his thumb early in the match."

Yes, he did say that, or was it his arm? as the New York Times reported?

Jeffries cleaned out the division and did not lose until he came back at 35. It is certainly not unreasonable to rate him one of the two or so best heavyweights of the first half of the 20th century. Certain papers of his own day judged him better than Sullivan. That said, I still take these rather frequent claims of injuries, or dirty dealing by his opponents, with a grain of salt.

Take my word for it, it was his thumb which is the one finger you can't injure if you need to make a fist. The injury was legit.

[OLD FOGEY]

Take my word for it, it was his thumb which is the one finger you can't injure if you need to make a fist. The injury was legit.

Perhaps, but do you have a source other than Jeff or his management?
Also, it is noteworthy that the Times reporter describes him as slow and clumsy.

I find it most suspicious that they announced to the crowd that he broke his arm. If they shied at saying he broke his thumb because that didn't sound dramatic enough, the logical next step would be to say you broke your hand. Why go all the way to claiming a broken arm?

[ChrisPontius]

When did Jeffries and Armstrong have that exhibition match?

[OLD FOGEY]

When did Jeffries and Armstrong have that exhibition match?


I don't know what you mean by exhibition as it was a real fight. Jeff and Armstrong fought on August 5, 1898.

[Mendoza]

Perhaps, but do you have a source other than Jeff or his management?
Also, it is noteworthy that the Times reporter describes him as slow and clumsy.

I find it most suspicious that they announced to the crowd that he broke his arm. If they shied at saying he broke his thumb because that didn't sound dramatic enough, the logical next step would be to say you broke your hand. Why go all the way to claiming a broken arm?
This was Jeffries first trip to New York. The bad thumb, and Armstrong's survival / quick movements made him look bad. It was probably Jeffries worst ring effort. Yeah-- I have read a few times it was the thumb. The New York times sometimes misses things too.

[OLD FOGEY]

This was Jeffries first trip to New York. The bad thumb, and Armstrong's survival / quick movements made him look bad. It was probably Jeffries worst ring effort. Yeah-- I have read a few times it was the thumb. The New York times sometimes misses things too.

"The New York Times sometimes misses things too."

Are you implying Jeff was a Republican?

[Mendoza]

"The New York Times sometimes misses things too."

Are you implying Jeff was a Republican?

Haha. Maybe Teddy Roosevelt liked him.

[ChrisPontius]

I don't know what you mean by exhibition as it was a real fight. Jeff and Armstrong fought on August 5, 1898.

Oh ok.

I read in your posted article: "Armstrong, who is at best not more than a third-rate fighter, surprised the spectators, as well as Jeffries, by giving an exhibition which, while not first class, was nevertheless sufficiently interesting to keep Jeffries guessing."