Riddick Bowe underrated ?

[Sonny's jab]

People say he "only" has the Holyfield trilogy, but that seems a bit unfair.

I think Holyfield was a great champion, and Bowe beat him when he was undefeated and near his best. Bowe beat him in a convincing manner, in a great fight.

Bowe lost a close one to Evander a year later, and Evander had to put on one of his absolute best performances to do it. On the downside you can say Evander was on the slide already, and Bowe had past his peak (perhaps through lack of discipline). But still a great fight.

When they fought again, Bowe became the first man to stop Holyfield. And he came off the deck to do it. Holyfield may have been sick or whatever (not Bowe's fault) but he was coming off a fairly decent performance against Ray Mercer.

The Holyfield trilogy is THREE WORTHY PERFORMANCES from Bowe. They are top flight performances, even the one he lost wasn't a "bad" showing.

Bowe also beat a good crop of young prospects, undefeated guys, fringe contenders. Not the top flight of the division but good young fighters, or undefeated fighters with a bit of ambition. Hide, Donald, Gonzalez, Mathis Jr. were all undefeated, a couple of them arguably top 10 (actually, scrap Mathis Jr. - Bowe should have been DQ'd there). Pierre Coetzer was a good strong fighter, Tony Tubbs was a seasoned contender. Seldon was still a decent prospect (who'd only been beaten once at that time). Jesse Ferguson had just schooled Ray Mercer when Bowe smashed him.

These men dont make a particularly "good resume", but they aren't "NOTHING" either. They are an addition to the Holyfield trilogy.

Let's face it, when someone makes a list of Sonny Liston's top ten wins, you'll probably see them picking Mike DeJohn, Wayne Bethea etc. out of the air. And similar thing for other champions, like Foreman or even Frazier. So let's not dismiss all the "mediocre" fighters Bowe beat ON TOP of Holyfield.

Riddick Bowe's standing is affected by his manager's decision to duck Lennox Lewis, a stupid decision, IMO.
The fight would have been big in 1993, and Bowe would have stood a good chance of winning. We may well have seen a better Bowe than ever if Lewis had been his motivation, and - win, lose or draw - that would have counted for more than two easy defences.

I know Lewis fans like to say Bowe was frightened of Lewis but that doesn't square with what we otherwise know of Bowe - he was a warrior with a ton of heart. For all the guts he showed in the ring, he deserves the benefit of the doubt before being labelled "scared".
Stupid, and easily-led more likely. His loudmouth manager Rock Newman seemed to have a gripe with the WBC that went back long before the Lewis issue (and the WBC are crooks anyway, so I cant really judge the origins of the dispute) and seemed to think easy defences and staying unbeaten was more important than taking the big fight and big money and staying truly "undisputed". I think Newman was wrong, and Bowe went along with it - he was hardly qualified not to. But to read this as "fear" seems a bit of a jump.

How do Bowe's accomplishments and resume really stack up to the greats ?
2 wins over a prime or not-too-far-removed-from-prime Holyfield, and a close defeat to same. And a few okay wins over decent contenders or fringe contenders or good prospects.
And when he lost, Bowe battled hard in defeat, didn't fold like a pack of cards (even counting the Golota wars, which some call "defeats").

I think maybe he gets dismissed a bit too harshly.
But, for me, it's still an open question. Maybe he doesn't belong.

[fists of fury]

Riddick Bowe's standing is affected by his manager's decision to duck Lennox Lewis, a stupid decision, IMO.
The fight would have been big in 1993, and Bowe would have stood a good chance of winning. We may well have seen a better Bowe than ever if Lewis had been his motivation, and - win, lose or draw - that would have counted for more than two easy defences.


I'm glad you said this, because I feel the same way. I have always felt that the garbage can incident was Rock Newman's brainchild, not Bowe's. Newman was an odd character, to say the least.
Granted, Lewis' spectacular knockout of Ruddock may have had something to do with Newman's decision (assuming of course, it was his) or it could have been nothing more than good old fashioned politics.
Perhaps Newman wanted the hype concerning the two fighters to build and build, eventually cashing in heavily when the fight was eventually announced?

Whatever the case, my personal viewpoint is that Riddick was more polished as a fighter than Lewis at that stage of their careers, and a win for Bowe would have been a distinct possibility.

I think Riddick's problem was that he was by nature a lazy slob, to be honest. When on top form he was an excellent fighter, with the necessary size, power, durability and boxing smarts to be hell for anyone in that era.

Question his commitment if you will, but there was nothing wrong with his heart or the overall package he brought to the ring.

PS-I think he went 3-0 against Evander. I had him winning the 2nd fight by a single point.

[DamonD]

If Bowe is underrated, it is utterly his own fault.
Eddie Futch deserved a better, more dedicated final student.

[mr. magoo]

Great post Sonny,

Rock Newman was certainly a prick. He was constantly shooting his mouth off, starting fights with other fighters managers and basically making a spectacle of himself. I have always blamed him for Bowe not fighting Lewis, and felt that he did his fighter no service by being responsible for that fight not happening.

As for Riddick's comp, I agree as well. One thing that is commonly overlooked, is that he was never Ko'd in his 45 pro fights, and took two out of 3 against the only man who beat him. That's coming pretty damn close to being undefeated if anyone asks me. The Golata fights did him no service, but I truly believe that Riddick was past his best, and Golata was fighting horribly dirty on top of everything else. I don't know how well I'd do if some body was constantly hitting me in the nuts all night long.

Bowe indeed beat some good fighters like you say. Piere Coetzer was a better fighter than people give him credit for and was a solid number one contender in June of 1992, when they had there title elimination match. He was a sculpted specimen who was reasonably young at age 30, and was actively fighting beating decent comp before meeting Bowe. Seldon was an OK fighter. Gonzalez, Donald and Hide as you say were at least undefeated.

Bowe has my vote as a top 15 or 20 guy.

[Sonny's jab]

If Bowe is underrated, it is utterly his own fault.
Eddie Futch deserved a better, more dedicated final student.

Why did Futch deserve better ?
Futch wasn't in there taking punches. What has Futch done to DESERVE so many champions ? Being a great trainer of great fighters actually relies on a lot of luck as well as expertise.

Bowe may have been the best heavyweight fighter Futch brought to the title. Who's the competition ? Norton ?
He was a later addition to Holmes and Frazier corners, if I remember rightly.

Bowe seemed to be a fairly quick developer as a professional, so he obviously put some hard work into learning his trade.
Sure, he regressed and got a bit fat when he made all that money, and probably left a lot of himself in the ring in hard fights.

But it's easy to flippantly dismiss him as "lazy". He didn't look lazy in the ring with Holyfield for 30 rounds, and he never quit, and those fights were enough to take a lot out of any fighter. After that he took incredible beatings against Golota and never quit.
There's no shame in that. Anyone who's been in the ring, and most fans who haven't, can respect what Bowe put into his fights. He was a warrior. He could have ate less, or run a few miles more, okay. But to imply he was a major let-down to HIS TRAINER (who got well paid for his troubles no doubt) is way off the mark, IMO.

Bowe fought his heart out on more than one occasion. If his conditioning was below par, his heart was way above. I doubt Futch was disappointed in him.

It's amusing that old trainers like Futch are revered as sacred cows, and we should feel sorry for them if their fighter's dont become the next Joe Louis. Allegedly, the trainer is infallible and perfect, and there's an ideal that the fighter has to live up to to be "worthy" of his trainer. But on the other hand it's okay to shit on the fighters who are in their taking the punches.

[Sonny's jab]

Great post Sonny,

Rock Newman was certainly a prick. He was constantly shooting his mouth off, starting fights with other fighters managers and basically making a spectacle of himself. I have always blamed him for Bowe not fighting Lewis, and felt that he did his fighter no service by being responsible for that fight not happening.


It's interesting that Newman was actually bad-mouthing Holyfield's credibility as a worthy challenger to Bowe not long before they agreed terms for a rematch. Newman was saying Holyfield should retire, and Bowe has no interest in fighting him again. His manner of negotiation was constantly hostile and provocative. All good managers play the mind games and act tough, but Newman was constantly in that gear of demeaning and rejecting Bowe's rivals. Lennox was not the only one, it wasn't an isolated incident, it just happens that they SHOULD HAVE fought Lewis, no ifs or buts.
Newman was a prick, he acted high-strung, frienzied and emotional. Unhinged.

The politics of boxing business is the sport's main drawback. Ironically, I think Bowe-Lewis needed Don King involved. But of course, King would have demanded options on whoever won.

[ChrisPontius]

Let's face it, when someone makes a list of Sonny Liston's top ten wins, you'll probably see them picking Mike DeJohn, Wayne Bethea etc. out of the air. And similar thing for other champions, like Foreman or even Frazier. So let's not dismiss all the "mediocre" fighters Bowe beat ON TOP of Holyfield.



If we list, say:

DeJohn
Machen
Williams
Foley
Harris

How do you think they stack up against Bowe's wins outside of Holyfield? (taking into account the stage of the career all were in when they fought, of course)

I left Bethea off because i don't think anyone considers this a big win for Liston. He was a journeyman.


Larry Donald was the best win outside of Holyfield, in my opinion. Bowe perhaps scared him a bit during that press conference. It's too bad Donald didn't fight good opposition after that fight until very late. He beat Valuev on my card in 2005 when he was 38 and shut Holyfield out.





I know Lewis fans like to say Bowe was frightened of Lewis but that doesn't square with what we otherwise know of Bowe - he was a warrior with a ton of heart. For all the guts he showed in the ring, he deserves the benefit of the doubt before being labelled "scared".


I don't give him the benefit of the doubt because there is no doubt. He was promised as title shot at Holyfield under the condition that he'd face the winner of Ruddock/Lewis afterwards. When Lewis knocked Ruddock out in impressive and one-sided fashion after Tyson went 17 knockoutless rounds with him, he then didn't want to keep his word and not fight Lewis. He rather gave up his title than to face Lewis. What did he do afterwards? He fought two nobodies. Remember that Lennox had stopped Bowe in two rounds during the olypmics. I don't see how there can be any doubt about Bowe not wanting any part of Lewis.

He disgraced the championship and was steered away from dangerous fights/punchers his entire career, except for Golota who retired him and with stunning ease. Holyfield II was seen as an easy fight before hand and a repetition of a good big guy beating a good small guy.

[Sonny's jab]

If we list, say:

DeJohn
Machen
Williams
Foley
Harris

How do you think they stack up against Bowe's wins outside of Holyfield? (taking into account the stage of the career all were in when they fought, of course)

I left Bethea off because i don't think anyone considers this a big win for Liston. He was a journeyman.


Larry Donald was the best win outside of Holyfield, in my opinion. Bowe perhaps scared him a bit during that press conference. It's too bad Donald didn't fight good opposition after that fight until very late. He beat Valuev on my card in 2005 when he was 38 and shut Holyfield out.


Outside of the Liston wins you mention, he has two first round KOs of Patterson. I prefer Bowe's record against Holyfield to be honest. 1st round KOs prove something, but I think Bowe showed a bit extra against Holyfield (considering I rate Holyfield a lot higher than Patterson).

Now, as to your question, Williams, Machen and Folley, DeJohn and Harris MIGHT be better than the other guys Bowe beat, but not by much, to be honest. Folley and Machen were rated highly at the time but I have my doubts whether they could have given a young Bowe as much trouble as Tubbs did. But I'll put them above Bowe's opposition on reputation alone.
Harris was not good. DeJohn was tough and strong but otherwise ordinary. Cleveland Williams record was no better than Hide's going in. I'm no fan of Hide but Hide was ranked. Hide might have shook Liston like Williams did for a round or two, with his speed.

(Bethea was probably better than Harris, IMO. But I'm no expert. Bethea lost a disputed decision to Folley or Machen if I remember rightly, and most of his losses were close)


Hide was ranked. Donald was a good prospect. Tubbs was a contender. Coetzer might be on a par with DeJohn, let's be fair. Seldon was okay, but chinny, and Bowe did to him what Liston would do to a chinny fighter. How many of these guys would I favour Roy Harris against ? Not many, if any.


I don't give him the benefit of the doubt because there is no doubt. He was promised as title shot at Holyfield under the condition that he'd face the winner of Ruddock/Lewis afterwards. When Lewis knocked Ruddock out in impressive and one-sided fashion after Tyson went 17 knockoutless rounds with him, he then didn't want to keep his word and not fight Lewis. He rather gave up his title than to face Lewis. What did he do afterwards? He fought two nobodies. Remember that Lennox had stopped Bowe in two rounds during the olypmics. I don't see how there can be any doubt about Bowe not wanting any part of Lewis.


Bullshit, IMO.

If Newman had said "okay I've got you $20 million for your next fight and it's Lennox Lewis", Bowe fights him.

You're entitled to your opinion and you have laid out reasons but ....
It's an unnecessary slur on the man, IMO.
He should be condemned for the fact that he didn't fight the best fighter, but a charge of cowardice against a fighter who was a WARRIOR in the ring is unnecessary. You dont know his true feelings on the matter. His manager wanted him fighting easy fights, and, to his own discredit, he didn't go his own way.

"Scared" is also a way of bolstering Lennox Lewis. Sure, Lewis was hot commodity after blasting Ruddock, but Bowe was just as highly acclaimed in the wake of his Holyfield victory.


He disgraced the championship and was steered away from dangerous fights/punchers his entire career, except for Golota who retired him and with stunning ease. Holyfield II was seen as an easy fight before hand and a repetition of a good big guy beating a good small guy

That's a slanted way of viewing things. IMO.

Bowe took on and beat the undefeated Holyfield in 1992. In 1993, Holyfield proved he was more than just a "good small guy" but Bowe still came close to winning.
Bowe was the first man to beat Holyfield, and in 1995 the first man to TKO him.
These fights count for a lot, IMO.
Apart from Lewis, who was definitely ducked, Holyfield was certainly better than the other heavyweights of the time. (Personally I think Holy was better than Lewis, but Lewis should have been first in line in 1993, no question.)
Bowe fought Holyfield 3 times, and won twice.
That's not being "steered away from dangerous fights".


Sure, you can charge his manager of being over-protective at times and avoiding the toughest fights, but only up to a point.
I mean, do you rate Golota as "dangerous" but the others weren't ?
Gonzalez had apparently thrashed Bowe in the amateurs, and was looking quite menacing as a professional at the time.

Hide had the WBO title by hospitalizing Bentt, who had blasted out Morrison.

Talented guys like Donald and Tubbs are risks.

Maybe taking easy defences IS "disgraceful", but Bowe wasn't the only champion to do so.

And, who, apart from Lewis, was definitely ducked ?

Ultimately we have to judge his accomplishments on who he beat overall in his career, and not on who he didn't fight.

[mcvey]

People say he "only" has the Holyfield trilogy, but that seems a bit unfair.

I think Holyfield was a great champion, and Bowe beat him when he was undefeated and near his best. Bowe beat him in a convincing manner, in a great fight.

Bowe lost a close one to Evander a year later, and Evander had to put on one of his absolute best performances to do it. On the downside you can say Evander was on the slide already, and Bowe had past his peak (perhaps through lack of discipline). But still a great fight.

When they fought again, Bowe became the first man to stop Holyfield. And he came off the deck to do it. Holyfield may have been sick or whatever (not Bowe's fault) but he was coming off a fairly decent performance against Ray Mercer.

The Holyfield trilogy is THREE WORTHY PERFORMANCES from Bowe. They are top flight performances, even the one he lost wasn't a "bad" showing.

Bowe also beat a good crop of young prospects, undefeated guys, fringe contenders. Not the top flight of the division but good young fighters, or undefeated fighters with a bit of ambition. Hide, Donald, Gonzalez, Mathis Jr. were all undefeated, a couple of them arguably top 10 (actually, scrap Mathis Jr. - Bowe should have been DQ'd there). Pierre Coetzer was a good strong fighter, Tony Tubbs was a seasoned contender. Seldon was still a decent prospect (who'd only been beaten once at that time). Jesse Ferguson had just schooled Ray Mercer when Bowe smashed him.

These men dont make a particularly "good resume", but they aren't "NOTHING" either. They are an addition to the Holyfield trilogy.

Let's face it, when someone makes a list of Sonny Liston's top ten wins, you'll probably see them picking Mike DeJohn, Wayne Bethea etc. out of the air. And similar thing for other champions, like Foreman or even Frazier. So let's not dismiss all the "mediocre" fighters Bowe beat ON TOP of Holyfield.

Riddick Bowe's standing is affected by his manager's decision to duck Lennox Lewis, a stupid decision, IMO.
The fight would have been big in 1993, and Bowe would have stood a good chance of winning. We may well have seen a better Bowe than ever if Lewis had been his motivation, and - win, lose or draw - that would have counted for more than two easy defences.

I know Lewis fans like to say Bowe was frightened of Lewis but that doesn't square with what we otherwise know of Bowe - he was a warrior with a ton of heart. For all the guts he showed in the ring, he deserves the benefit of the doubt before being labelled "scared".
Stupid, and easily-led more likely. His loudmouth manager Rock Newman seemed to have a gripe with the WBC that went back long before the Lewis issue (and the WBC are crooks anyway, so I cant really judge the origins of the dispute) and seemed to think easy defences and staying unbeaten was more important than taking the big fight and big money and staying truly "undisputed". I think Newman was wrong, and Bowe went along with it - he was hardly qualified not to. But to read this as "fear" seems a bit of a jump.

How do Bowe's accomplishments and resume really stack up to the greats ?
2 wins over a prime or not-too-far-removed-from-prime Holyfield, and a close defeat to same. And a few okay wins over decent contenders or fringe contenders or good prospects.
And when he lost, Bowe battled hard in defeat, didn't fold like a pack of cards (even counting the Golota wars, which some call "defeats").

I think maybe he gets dismissed a bit too harshly.
But, for me, it's still an open question. Maybe he doesn't belong.
Difficult to rate him imo ,he is a what might have been,good skills great infighter but flawed in character,I thought he had more potential the Lennox Lewis.

[mr. magoo]

Outside of the Liston wins you mention, he has two first round KOs of Patterson. I prefer Bowe's record against Holyfield to be honest. 1st round KOs prove something, but I think Bowe showed a bit extra against Holyfield (considering I rate Holyfield a lot higher than Patterson).

Now, as to your question, Williams, Machen and Folley, DeJohn and Harris MIGHT be better than the other guys Bowe beat, but not by much, to be honest. Folley and Machen were rated highly at the time but I have my doubts whether they could have given a young Bowe as much trouble as Tubbs did. But I'll put them above Bowe's opposition on reputation alone.
Harris was not good. DeJohn was tough and strong but otherwise ordinary. Cleveland Williams record was no better than Hide's going in. I'm no fan of Hide but Hide was ranked. Hide might have shook Liston like Williams did for a round or two, with his speed.

(Bethea was probably better than Harris, IMO. But I'm no expert. Bethea lost a disputed decision to Folley or Machen if I remember rightly, and most of his losses were close)


Hide was ranked. Donald was a good prospect. Tubbs was a contender. Coetzer might be on a par with DeJohn, let's be fair. Seldon was okay, but chinny, and Bowe did to him what Liston would do to a chinny fighter. How many of these guys would I favour Roy Harris against ? Not many, if any.



Bullshit, IMO.

If Newman had said "okay I've got you $20 million for your next fight and it's Lennox Lewis", Bowe fights him.

You're entitled to your opinion and you have laid out reasons but ....
It's an unnecessary slur on the man, IMO.
He should be condemned for the fact that he didn't fight the best fighter, but a charge of cowardice against a fighter who was a WARRIOR in the ring is unnecessary. You dont know his true feelings on the matter. His manager wanted him fighting easy fights, and, to his own discredit, he didn't go his own way.

"Scared" is also a way of bolstering Lennox Lewis. Sure, Lewis was hot commodity after blasting Ruddock, but Bowe was just as highly acclaimed in the wake of his Holyfield victory.



That's a slanted way of viewing things. IMO.

Bowe took on and beat the undefeated Holyfield in 1992. In 1993, Holyfield proved he was more than just a "good small guy" but Bowe still came close to winning.
Bowe was the first man to beat Holyfield, and in 1995 the first man to TKO him.
These fights count for a lot, IMO.
Apart from Lewis, who was definitely ducked, Holyfield was certainly better than the other heavyweights of the time. (Personally I think Holy was better than Lewis, but Lewis should have been first in line in 1993, no question.)
Bowe fought Holyfield 3 times, and won twice.
That's not being "steered away from dangerous fights".


Sure, you can charge his manager of being over-protective at times and avoiding the toughest fights, but only up to a point.
I mean, do you rate Golota as "dangerous" but the others weren't ?
Gonzalez had apparently thrashed Bowe in the amateurs, and was looking quite menacing as a professional at the time.

Hide had the WBO title by hospitalizing Bentt, who had blasted out Morrison.

Talented guys like Donald and Tubbs are risks.

Maybe taking easy defences IS "disgraceful", but Bowe wasn't the only champion to do so.

And, who, apart from Lewis, was definitely ducked ?

Ultimately we have to judge his accomplishments on who he beat overall in his career, and not on who he didn't fight.

I agree with everything you said, however in regards to the third fight with Holyfield, I'm not sure exactly how dangerous Evander was still viewed as being by both the Bowe camp and the general public. This was a man who had lost to Michael Moorer, then took a leave from the sport for over a year due to a heart problem, and was around 33 or 34 years old by the time he faced Bowe in the rubber match. I'm fairly certain Riddick's people and Bowe himself were confident that Holy wouldn't be much of a threat. As it turned out though, Evander was couragious and floored him once in a competitive fight.

My thoughts.

[godking]

People say he "only" has the Holyfield trilogy, but that seems a bit unfair.

I think Holyfield was a great champion, and Bowe beat him when he was undefeated and near his best. Bowe beat him in a convincing manner, in a great fight.

Bowe lost a close one to Evander a year later, and Evander had to put on one of his absolute best performances to do it. On the downside you can say Evander was on the slide already, and Bowe had past his peak (perhaps through lack of discipline). But still a great fight.

When they fought again, Bowe became the first man to stop Holyfield. And he came off the deck to do it. Holyfield may have been sick or whatever (not Bowe's fault) but he was coming off a fairly decent performance against Ray Mercer.

The Holyfield trilogy is THREE WORTHY PERFORMANCES from Bowe. They are top flight performances, even the one he lost wasn't a "bad" showing.

Bowe also beat a good crop of young prospects, undefeated guys, fringe contenders. Not the top flight of the division but good young fighters, or undefeated fighters with a bit of ambition. Hide, Donald, Gonzalez, Mathis Jr. were all undefeated, a couple of them arguably top 10 (actually, scrap Mathis Jr. - Bowe should have been DQ'd there). Pierre Coetzer was a good strong fighter, Tony Tubbs was a seasoned contender. Seldon was still a decent prospect (who'd only been beaten once at that time). Jesse Ferguson had just schooled Ray Mercer when Bowe smashed him.

These men dont make a particularly "good resume", but they aren't "NOTHING" either. They are an addition to the Holyfield trilogy.

Let's face it, when someone makes a list of Sonny Liston's top ten wins, you'll probably see them picking Mike DeJohn, Wayne Bethea etc. out of the air. And similar thing for other champions, like Foreman or even Frazier. So let's not dismiss all the "mediocre" fighters Bowe beat ON TOP of Holyfield.

Riddick Bowe's standing is affected by his manager's decision to duck Lennox Lewis, a stupid decision, IMO.
The fight would have been big in 1993, and Bowe would have stood a good chance of winning. We may well have seen a better Bowe than ever if Lewis had been his motivation, and - win, lose or draw - that would have counted for more than two easy defences.

I know Lewis fans like to say Bowe was frightened of Lewis but that doesn't square with what we otherwise know of Bowe - he was a warrior with a ton of heart. For all the guts he showed in the ring, he deserves the benefit of the doubt before being labelled "scared".
Stupid, and easily-led more likely. His loudmouth manager Rock Newman seemed to have a gripe with the WBC that went back long before the Lewis issue (and the WBC are crooks anyway, so I cant really judge the origins of the dispute) and seemed to think easy defences and staying unbeaten was more important than taking the big fight and big money and staying truly "undisputed". I think Newman was wrong, and Bowe went along with it - he was hardly qualified not to. But to read this as "fear" seems a bit of a jump.

How do Bowe's accomplishments and resume really stack up to the greats ?
2 wins over a prime or not-too-far-removed-from-prime Holyfield, and a close defeat to same. And a few okay wins over decent contenders or fringe contenders or good prospects.
And when he lost, Bowe battled hard in defeat, didn't fold like a pack of cards (even counting the Golota wars, which some call "defeats").

I think maybe he gets dismissed a bit too harshly.
But, for me, it's still an open question. Maybe he doesn't belong.He does'nt belong

Bowe fought 1 A fighter in Holyfield 1 B fighter Golota and a whole slew of C HWS

And this in the second strongest HW era and the most puncher heavy division at HW of all time.

Bowe loses the Holyfield trilogy and he does not get mentioned today.

[mr. magoo]

He does'nt belong

Bowe fought 1 A fighter in Holyfield 1 B fighter Golota and a whole slew of C HWS

And this in the second strongest HW era and the most puncher heavy division at HW of all time.

Bowe loses the Holyfield trilogy and he does not get mentioned today.

Valid points, but perhaps a tad oversimplified. I certainly agree that Bowe needed to face a few more "A" level fighters to tighten up his legacy, but as it stands, his credentials and accomplishments were still fairly admirable. For one, he took two out of three against a man who commonly makes most people's top 10 list, and his only defeat was a close decision to the same man. He was never Ko'd in 44 fights, and frankly I would probably rate Coetzer, Hide, Gonzalez and Donald as "B" level fighters rather than "C". The Golata bouts hurt his legacy a bit, but I think he was declining by that point and facing a rather dirty fighter.

The best contestants of the 90's outside of himself were Lewis, Holyfield, Tyson and Moorer. One of them was abscent from the scene for most of Bowe's prime. Another he beat twice, while one was Ko'd by George Foreman, and the last is probably the only note worthy fighter that he failed to meet. The Lewis match not happening was probably just as much his manager's doing as it was his own.

Let me clearify that I don't rate Bowe as a top 10 man, but he still had a significant legacy worthy of great mentioning. If Ken Norton, Jerry Quarry, Joe Walcott, and Floyd Patterson, were hall of famers, then I think we can easily ad Bowe to that teir, especially considering that he may very well be a bit better than at least half of them.

[Russell]

Why did Futch deserve better ?
Futch wasn't in there taking punches. What has Futch done to DESERVE so many champions ? Being a great trainer of great fighters actually relies on a lot of luck as well as expertise.

Bowe may have been the best heavyweight fighter Futch brought to the title. Who's the competition ? Norton ?
He was a later addition to Holmes and Frazier corners, if I remember rightly.

Bowe seemed to be a fairly quick developer as a professional, so he obviously put some hard work into learning his trade.
Sure, he regressed and got a bit fat when he made all that money, and probably left a lot of himself in the ring in hard fights.

But it's easy to flippantly dismiss him as "lazy". He didn't look lazy in the ring with Holyfield for 30 rounds, and he never quit, and those fights were enough to take a lot out of any fighter. After that he took incredible beatings against Golota and never quit.
There's no shame in that. Anyone who's been in the ring, and most fans who haven't, can respect what Bowe put into his fights. He was a warrior. He could have ate less, or run a few miles more, okay. But to imply he was a major let-down to HIS TRAINER (who got well paid for his troubles no doubt) is way off the mark, IMO.

Bowe fought his heart out on more than one occasion. If his conditioning was below par, his heart was way above. I doubt Futch was disappointed in him.

It's amusing that old trainers like Futch are revered as sacred cows, and we should feel sorry for them if their fighter's dont become the next Joe Louis. Allegedly, the trainer is infallible and perfect, and there's an ideal that the fighter has to live up to to be "worthy" of his trainer. But on the other hand it's okay to shit on the fighters who are in their taking the punches.

Wow...

Great post.

[round15]

Riddick Bowe I would say is slightly underrated. He had perhaps the best inside fighting skills of the big heavyweights in the last 15 years. He didn't look good both times against Andrew Golota, regardless of the low blows, but his wars with Holyfield are the most memorable.

I blame Bowe, Lewis and Tyson for not getting it done against each other in the early-mid 90's, especially when Tyson returned after his exile. Boxing needed these matches and watching Bowe toss the WBC belt into the trash avoiding a fight with Lennox Lewis was not the most popular moment in his career. Lewis beat him in the olympics, which should have given Bowe incentive to avenge that loss but he didn't.

[ChrisPontius]

Outside of the Liston wins you mention, he has two first round KOs of Patterson. I prefer Bowe's record against Holyfield to be honest. 1st round KOs prove something, but I think Bowe showed a bit extra against Holyfield (considering I rate Holyfield a lot higher than Patterson).

Now, as to your question, Williams, Machen and Folley, DeJohn and Harris MIGHT be better than the other guys Bowe beat, but not by much, to be honest. Folley and Machen were rated highly at the time but I have my doubts whether they could have given a young Bowe as much trouble as Tubbs did. But I'll put them above Bowe's opposition on reputation alone.
Harris was not good. DeJohn was tough and strong but otherwise ordinary. Cleveland Williams record was no better than Hide's going in. I'm no fan of Hide but Hide was ranked. Hide might have shook Liston like Williams did for a round or two, with his speed.

(Bethea was probably better than Harris, IMO. But I'm no expert. Bethea lost a disputed decision to Folley or Machen if I remember rightly, and most of his losses were close)


Hide was ranked. Donald was a good prospect. Tubbs was a contender. Coetzer might be on a par with DeJohn, let's be fair. Seldon was okay, but chinny, and Bowe did to him what Liston would do to a chinny fighter. How many of these guys would I favour Roy Harris against ? Not many, if any.

I pretty much agree on your views of their opposition outside of Patterson/Holyfield. I was gonna say that Liston was a bit lucky to catch such a relatively weak division, after all, the guys he beat were the best around, but they're on the same level as Bowe's opposition who were clearly not the best around. But let's not go off topic.





Bullshit, IMO.

If Newman had said "okay I've got you $20 million for your next fight and it's Lennox Lewis", Bowe fights him.

You're entitled to your opinion and you have laid out reasons but ....
It's an unnecessary slur on the man, IMO.
He should be condemned for the fact that he didn't fight the best fighter, but a charge of cowardice against a fighter who was a WARRIOR in the ring is unnecessary. You dont know his true feelings on the matter. His manager wanted him fighting easy fights, and, to his own discredit, he didn't go his own way.

Not sure if you're implying it, but i didn't and don't call Bowe a coward. The guts he showed against Golota (rematch) is incredible, his heart inside the ring is up there with anyone, literally.

BUT! I think you're too easy in blaming Newman. You almost pretend asif Bowe was brainless puppet that was controlled by him. If Bowe would've wanted to fight his mandatory and be the best in the world, he could've done it and made a fortune regardless of the outcome.

Newman's plan was clear: make money by fighting lesser opponents and doing that popularity tour through Africa. Bowe obliged.



"Scared" is also a way of bolstering Lennox Lewis. Sure, Lewis was hot commodity after blasting Ruddock, but Bowe was just as highly acclaimed in the wake of his Holyfield victory.

Yes, but i think you under-estimate the mental aspect of getting stopped by someone. Even if logic should say that Bowe/Lewis would've been close to 50/50, the mind is not logic and will try to steer you clear from the guy that humiliated you at the olympics and just scored a devastating second round knockout against a high-regarded fighter.


That's a slanted way of viewing things. IMO.

Bowe took on and beat the undefeated Holyfield in 1992. In 1993, Holyfield proved he was more than just a "good small guy" but Bowe still came close to winning.
Bowe was the first man to beat Holyfield, and in 1995 the first man to TKO him.
These fights count for a lot, IMO.
Apart from Lewis, who was definitely ducked, Holyfield was certainly better than the other heavyweights of the time. (Personally I think Holy was better than Lewis, but Lewis should have been first in line in 1993, no question.)
Bowe fought Holyfield 3 times, and won twice.
That's not being "steered away from dangerous fights".

Well he took Holyfield on because that was for the title. :lol: Hard to steer away from that if you wanna accomplish anything.

But i would like to point out that at that time, Holyfield wasn't high regarded as a heavyweight at all. He was seen as great cruiserweight who was waiting to get knocked out by Mike Tyson. Many felt his power was way insufficient to deal with those bigger fighters; the struggles he had to put away Dokes, Thomas, Foreman and Holmes confirmed that for many. Douglas was fat and quit, Foreman and Holmes were old and Dokes was erratic.

I know that i'm making things sound one-sidedly against Holyfield now, but this is how most people viewed it! I suggest you re-watch Holyfield-Bowe, many expected Holyfield to lose because this was the first big heavyweight in his prime that he fought. And after he did, their thoughts were confirmed, hence Newman's happiness to take a rematch. As Magoo pointed out, Holyfield was seen as washed up in their 3rd fight. In hindsight we know he still had a lot left as he showed against Tyson, but seeing how he tired/got some steroid syndrom/did too many weights, it seems to be more of a matter of Holyfield losing than Bowe winning. Especially considering Holyfield did very well early and had Bowe out on his feet in the 6th with Evander lacking the stamina to take advantage. Again, Bowe proved his heart though.


I mean, do you rate Golota as "dangerous" but the others weren't ?
Gonzalez had apparently thrashed Bowe in the amateurs, and was looking quite menacing as a professional at the time.

Hide had the WBO title by hospitalizing Bentt, who had blasted out Morrison.

Talented guys like Donald and Tubbs are risks.

Maybe taking easy defences IS "disgraceful", but Bowe wasn't the only champion to do so.

And, who, apart from Lewis, was definitely ducked ?

Ultimately we have to judge his accomplishments on who he beat overall in his career, and not on who he didn't fight.
Golota wasn't seen as a threat at all. He surprised the whole world with his performance. Gonzalas, Hide and Donald were good wins and you could indeed say they were threats.

He didn't duck anyone besides Lewis though.

[Russell]

Donald, Hide and Gonzales were all undefeated when Bowe fought them back to back as well.

[Sonny's jab]

I agree with everything you said, however in regards to the third fight with Holyfield, I'm not sure exactly how dangerous Evander was still viewed as being by both the Bowe camp and the general public. This was a man who had lost to Michael Moorer, then took a leave from the sport for over a year due to a heart problem, and was around 33 or 34 years old by the time he faced Bowe in the rubber match. I'm fairly certain Riddick's people and Bowe himself were confident that Holy wouldn't be much of a threat. As it turned out though, Evander was couragious and floored him once in a competitive fight.

My thoughts.

Holyfield-Bowe 3 was billed as "the people's championship" because the public generally viewed both of them as better fighters than any of the men holding the WBA, WBC or IBF championships at the time.
The "championships" were held by Seldon, Bruno and Botha at the time.
Foreman was "linear".

I think Holyfield was viewed in a better light after the Mercer fight than what had been feared of him after the Moorer fight.
Actually, the way he looked DURING the Bowe fight, and the way he looked against Czyz next up, was what convinced most people he was absolutely done.

In 1995, who was considered better ? There was no one. Lennox Lewis had his supporters but people were just as skeptical about Lewis's abilities as they were over Holyfield's, Lewis had only beaten Lionel Butler, ****** Fortune and Tommy Morrison since getting blasted out in 2 rounds by McCall. Frank Bruno had just beat McCall, so Lewis's recent credentials were hardly amazing.

Hopes were being pinned on Mike Tyson's comeback, and everybody was gunning for a match with him, Bowe being the favourite to take the place of his "main rival".

Going in to Holyfield-Bowe, the division was chaotic, and Holyfield and Bowe were viewed as good as any as the candidates for #2 and #1 honours, Tyson's pending re-establishment not withstanding.
They may have known Holyfield was over-the-hill - and some may have thought that Bowe was fat, lazy and fading fast too - but there was not much competition out there.

[mr. magoo]

Holyfield-Bowe 3 was billed as "the people's championship" because the public generally viewed both of them as better fighters than any of the men holding the WBA, WBC or IBF championships at the time.
The "championships" were held by Seldon, Bruno and Botha at the time.
Foreman was "linear".

I think Holyfield was viewed in a better light after the Mercer fight than what had been feared of him after the Moorer fight.
Actually, the way he looked DURING the Bowe fight, and the way he looked against Czyz next up, was what convinced most people he was absolutely done.

In 1995, who was considered better ? There was no one. Lennox Lewis had his supporters but people were just as skeptical about Lewis's abilities as they were over Holyfield's, Lewis had only beaten Lionel Butler, ****** Fortune and Tommy Morrison since getting blasted out in 2 rounds by McCall. Frank Bruno had just beat McCall, so Lewis's recent credentials were hardly amazing.

Hopes were being pinned on Mike Tyson's comeback, and everybody was gunning for a match with him, Bowe being the favourite to take the place of his "main rival".

Going in to Holyfield-Bowe, the division was chaotic, and Holyfield and Bowe were viewed as good as any as the candidates for #2 and #1 honours, Tyson's pending re-establishment not withstanding.
They may have known Holyfield was over-the-hill - and some may have thought that Bowe was fat, lazy and fading fast too - but there was not much competition out there.

Yes I remember the public's views of Bowe and Holyfield being the best heavyweights in the world despite both being beltless. I too shared this feeling at the time. My only point was how Bowe's camp saw Holyfield as a threat. Riddick If I recall ( and I may have forgotten ), was a heavy favorite to win this fight. I remember George Foreman commenting on the match from ringside saying that Evander had no business being in the ring given his recent health issues. Not to mention, only having fought once in a near two year period.

I agree that Holyfield still had a good case for being at least one of the top two or three best fighters in the world, but I hold firm to my belief that Riddick's corner was comfortable with Bowe's chances of winning without too much trouble.

[Sonny's jab]

Not sure if you're implying it, but i didn't and don't call Bowe a coward. The guts he showed against Golota (rematch) is incredible, his heart inside the ring is up there with anyone, literally.

BUT! I think you're too easy in blaming Newman. You almost pretend asif Bowe was brainless puppet that was controlled by him. If Bowe would've wanted to fight his mandatory and be the best in the world, he could've done it and made a fortune regardless of the outcome.

Newman's plan was clear: make money by fighting lesser opponents and doing that popularity tour through Africa. Bowe obliged.


I wouldn't say "brainless puppet" but probably an uneducated guy, 25 years old, totally clueless about how to operate the business side of boxing. That's what managers are for. Some young guys from the ghetto aren't always confident about that side of things. Far more so nowadays, but controlling your own destiny and building your own concerns is a "new school" thing. I think the Newman-Bowe relationship was more "old school", and, yes, Newman had a domineering personality.
No one's ever claimed Bowe's an intelligent guy, (but he might be), and he certainly never came across as the sleek, business-like, articulate type that Lennox Lewis or Roy Jones or Oscar DeLa Hoya were, or how Larry Holmes became.

The same rules apply in boxing as in the rest of life, work and business. Often one guy takes the lead and the other follows, with no confidence in his ability to think for himself. Especially when he's getting paid more than he ever dreamed of.

I blame Rock Newman, because it was quite unanimous among journalists and boxing associates that he was an intense and obnoxious personality.
Bowe obliged, that's true, and he should be condemned too, just like Dempsey for not fighting Wills. I'm just saying that I dont think a "fear" on Bowe's part was the deciding factor in why Lewis was ducked.


Yes, but i think you under-estimate the mental aspect of getting stopped by someone. Even if logic should say that Bowe/Lewis would've been close to 50/50, the mind is not logic and will try to steer you clear from the guy that humiliated you at the olympics and just scored a devastating second round knockout against a high-regarded fighter.


I dont think the Olympics is relevant. Bowe had matured a lot since then. I heard he was knocked out by Gonzales in the amateurs too.

Ok, maybe combined with Lewis's KO of Ruddock.
Yeah, that would scare the shit out of ME, but I'm not Riddick Bowe.
If I'd just won 30-something professional fights, beaten Holyfield up, and 50% of the world was saying I can beat Lewis, and I have the "greatest trainer of all-time" in my corner, maybe I'd be straining at the leash to get at him.
You cant read his thoughts and feelings. You cant make assumptions.


Well he took Holyfield on because that was for the title. :lol: Hard to steer away from that if you wanna accomplish anything.


That's true. But what matters is, he fought him, and beat him.


But i would like to point out that at that time, Holyfield wasn't high regarded as a heavyweight at all. He was seen as great cruiserweight who was waiting to get knocked out by Mike Tyson. Many felt his power was way insufficient to deal with those bigger fighters; the struggles he had to put away Dokes, Thomas, Foreman and Holmes confirmed that for many. Douglas was fat and quit, Foreman and Holmes were old and Dokes was erratic.


Yeah, the media were always putting Holyfield down. They didn't fancy his chances when he moved up to heavyweight, and with every success he had they found ways of putting him down. "He needs to beat Tyson. Ah, Tyson will kill him" was the media's last resort. "Not a real heavyweight" and all that crap. Pathetic really.

But other fighters and the true fans respected him.

I think the media were wrong, and I thought so at the time. I thought he stood a good chance of beating Tyson (until '96 when I figured he was done :lol:).

To a reasonable eye, Holyfield's run at heavyweight from '88 to '92 was impressive.

I think Bowe beat a great champion. It was a great fight.


I know that i'm making things sound one-sidedly against Holyfield now, but this is how most people viewed it! I suggest you re-watch Holyfield-Bowe, many expected Holyfield to lose because this was the first big heavyweight in his prime that he fought. And after he did, their thoughts were confirmed, hence Newman's happiness to take a rematch.


It was a bunch of crap. And Holyfield actually got a lot of credit in losing to Bowe, even most of his critics could see he'd fought like a true heavyweight champion.

Seriously, Holyfield suffered for coming after Tyson, without actually beating him.

Of course, all the guys who had said in 1986 that Tyson would rule for the next 10-15 years and were besotted with his KO-style, of course they resented Holyfield, the guy they'd only backed to go half-way.


As Magoo pointed out,Holyfield was seen as washed up in their 3rd fight. In hindsight we know he still had a lot left as he showed against Tyson, but seeing how he tired/got some steroid syndrom/did too many weights, it seems to be more of a matter of Holyfield losing than Bowe winning. Especially considering Holyfield did very well early and had Bowe out on his feet in the 6th with Evander lacking the stamina to take advantage. Again, Bowe proved his heart though.


Holyfield was still a top fighter, a member of the elite, as I said in my response to magoo.
I think Holyfield was over-the-hill too. I dont actually regard the Tyson fights as proof otherwise.
But even an over-the-hill Holyfield was among the best available competition.

And since Holyfield had been viewed as "easy" for the 1993 rematch, by Newman, and had upset Bowe there, then surely that underlines the risk he presented in 1995.
Bowe was rated #1 by magazines in 1995, and voted "best heavyweight in the world", so he could have sat on far easier propositions than any version of Holyfield, who they KNEW would come to fight.


Golota wasn't seen as a threat at all. He surprised the whole world with his performance. Gonzalas, Hide and Donald were good wins and you could indeed say they were threats.

He didn't duck anyone besides Lewis though

Which is why I objected to your claim that he was protected from dangerous fights his entire career. I think you over-stated it. There weren't actually THAT many options out there.

[AnthonyJ74]

People say he "only" has the Holyfield trilogy, but that seems a bit unfair.

I think Holyfield was a great champion, and Bowe beat him when he was undefeated and near his best. Bowe beat him in a convincing manner, in a great fight.

Bowe lost a close one to Evander a year later, and Evander had to put on one of his absolute best performances to do it. On the downside you can say Evander was on the slide already, and Bowe had past his peak (perhaps through lack of discipline). But still a great fight.

When they fought again, Bowe became the first man to stop Holyfield. And he came off the deck to do it. Holyfield may have been sick or whatever (not Bowe's fault) but he was coming off a fairly decent performance against Ray Mercer.

The Holyfield trilogy is THREE WORTHY PERFORMANCES from Bowe. They are top flight performances, even the one he lost wasn't a "bad" showing.

Bowe also beat a good crop of young prospects, undefeated guys, fringe contenders. Not the top flight of the division but good young fighters, or undefeated fighters with a bit of ambition. Hide, Donald, Gonzalez, Mathis Jr. were all undefeated, a couple of them arguably top 10 (actually, scrap Mathis Jr. - Bowe should have been DQ'd there). Pierre Coetzer was a good strong fighter, Tony Tubbs was a seasoned contender. Seldon was still a decent prospect (who'd only been beaten once at that time). Jesse Ferguson had just schooled Ray Mercer when Bowe smashed him.

These men dont make a particularly "good resume", but they aren't "NOTHING" either. They are an addition to the Holyfield trilogy.

Let's face it, when someone makes a list of Sonny Liston's top ten wins, you'll probably see them picking Mike DeJohn, Wayne Bethea etc. out of the air. And similar thing for other champions, like Foreman or even Frazier. So let's not dismiss all the "mediocre" fighters Bowe beat ON TOP of Holyfield.

Riddick Bowe's standing is affected by his manager's decision to duck Lennox Lewis, a stupid decision, IMO.
The fight would have been big in 1993, and Bowe would have stood a good chance of winning. We may well have seen a better Bowe than ever if Lewis had been his motivation, and - win, lose or draw - that would have counted for more than two easy defences.

I know Lewis fans like to say Bowe was frightened of Lewis but that doesn't square with what we otherwise know of Bowe - he was a warrior with a ton of heart. For all the guts he showed in the ring, he deserves the benefit of the doubt before being labelled "scared".
Stupid, and easily-led more likely. His loudmouth manager Rock Newman seemed to have a gripe with the WBC that went back long before the Lewis issue (and the WBC are crooks anyway, so I cant really judge the origins of the dispute) and seemed to think easy defences and staying unbeaten was more important than taking the big fight and big money and staying truly "undisputed". I think Newman was wrong, and Bowe went along with it - he was hardly qualified not to. But to read this as "fear" seems a bit of a jump.

How do Bowe's accomplishments and resume really stack up to the greats ?
2 wins over a prime or not-too-far-removed-from-prime Holyfield, and a close defeat to same. And a few okay wins over decent contenders or fringe contenders or good prospects.
And when he lost, Bowe battled hard in defeat, didn't fold like a pack of cards (even counting the Golota wars, which some call "defeats").

I think maybe he gets dismissed a bit too harshly.
But, for me, it's still an open question. Maybe he doesn't belong.

Pretty good analysis! I think I have to agree with a lot of what you say. You did a good job highlighting the fact that Riddick Bowe did in fact do more in his career than just beat Evander Holyfield twice. After Bowe lost to Holyfield, he beat a pretty good crop of opponents. Larry Donald and Herbie Hide were to rising prospects who were definitely live bodies. You wouldn't see George Foreman or Larry Holmes at the time fight either one of those guys. Prior to winning the title, Bowe avoided Razor Ruddock and instead chose to fight Pieree Coetzer to obtain his mandatory ranking. His win over Coetzer was good, but I never liked how he avoided Ruddock's direct challenge to fight.

As for the Lennox Lewis thing; I always felt that a Bowe/Lewis fight had more to do with just Bowe's manager. I'm sure Rock Newman had a big part in the fight not coming off, but I always felt that Bowe didn't much want to fight Lewis either. But if they had fought around 1993, 1994, I think Bowe would have won. Lennox Lewis improved later on in his career, and I feel Lewis would have beat Bowe if they had fought from the mid-90's onward. In terms of Bowe being "scared" of Lewis; I don't think it would be unreasonable for Bowe to be afraid of him. I mean, I think the majority of elite fighters have fear for their opponents; fear is a natural emotion, but most fighters don't like to admit to being afraid....

But I agree with you that Bowe is probably a little underrated!

[mr. magoo]

Larry Donald and Herbie Hide were to rising prospects who were definitely live bodies. You wouldn't see George Foreman or Larry Holmes at the time fight either one of those guys.

Yes I agree that Bowe rebounded from losing the title quite well by opting to fight some of the new rising talents like Donald, Hide and Gonzalez. In all fairness though, the other day you went into great depth about how Foreman disgraced the lineal title by avoiding the division's best challengers. Bowe wins the title and defends against Jesse Ferguson and Michael Dokes, yet there seems to be no mention of it here. Now, you're back at it again, pointing out that Foreman ( and Holmes) were tip toeing around talented prospects. I have to disagree with this both as a factual error as well as a double standard. Foreman at nearly 50 years old faced Shanon Briggs who was among the division's best young talents, and arguably a better fighter than either Donald or Hide. Lou Savarese was also on par with that group.

Sorry to nit pick and I'm not looking for a heated mud slinging contest, but I felt it pertainant to bring it up.

[godking]

Donald, Hide and Gonzales were all undefeated when Bowe fought them back to back as well.Donald Hide and Gonzalez where at best B- fighters.

[ChrisPontius]

No major disagreements there. I agree that the media and the people were a little over-critical at Holyfield, but they wanted Tyson and Holyfield became a victim of that, so to speak. And let's be honest, while they were good wins, his opponents between 88 and 92 were easy to criticize: Holmes was old, many still thought Foreman wasn't serious about his comeback, Douglas was fat and quit, Thomas was shot, Dokes wasn't always good.

The funny thing is that it was Tyson who pulled out of their scheduled fights, twice, in 1991.

Here are two posters of that time, 1991:


[Only registered and activated users can see links]




[Only registered and activated users can see links]




Of course, after Holyfield was nearly stopped by journeyman and re-replacement Bert Cooper, any thought of him standing a chance against Tyson that was left, flew out of the window.

[Sonny's jab]

I never agreed with that assessment.
I never believed Holyfield would attempt to fight Tyson is the contemptous way he approached Bert Cooper (straight forward, little movement at all, looking for the early KO). I'm not sure the critics even believed it, they just had a habit of criticizing Holyfield, something they started and couldn't quit.

And the main point was, Tyson had been knocked out already, beaten quite severely by Douglas. His slip up versus Douglas was infinitely more significant than Holyfield's performance against Cooper. So, I never understood why he'd be favoured so heavily over Holyfield.

Sure, Holyfield's opponents '88 to '92 were easy to criticize, (it's easy to criticize and be negative with most heavyweights most of the time), but the same writers doing the criticizing had been glorifying Mike Tyson as a deity in the aftermath of the Michael Spinks fight, even while acknowledging Spinks' appearance as a complete non-effort. And there were a few Tyson performances that could have been criticized but never were. They looked at young Mike's wins through a far kinder lens than they applied to Holyfield. A double-standard.

And the only reason being - they'd picked Tyson to rule for 15 years, and they'd predicted Holyfield would fail at heavyweight.
Sportswriters rarely admit they're wrong, because they enjoy a facade of "expertise". As Jimmy Cannon said " a great sportswriter is someone who writes great alibis."

[AnthonyJ74]

Yes I agree that Bowe rebounded from losing the title quite well by opting to fight some of the new rising talents like Donald, Hide and Gonzalez. In all fairness though, the other day you went into great depth about how Foreman disgraced the lineal title by avoiding the division's best challengers. Bowe wins the title and defends against Jesse Ferguson and Michael Dokes, yet there seems to be no mention of it here. Now, you're back at it again, pointing out that Foreman ( and Holmes) were tip toeing around talented prospects. I have to disagree with this both as a factual error as well as a double standard. Foreman at nearly 50 years old faced Shanon Briggs who was among the division's best young talents, and arguably a better fighter than either Donald or Hide. Lou Savarese was also on par with that group.

Sorry to nit pick and I'm not looking for a heated mud slinging contest, but I felt it pertainant to bring it up.

THe other day the topic was about George Foreman, so most of my responses were directed at George Foreman. The whole jist of my response was focused on George Foreman and his second championship. I never intended for anyone to assume that I only believe George Foreman had disgraced the belt; there have been countless others who have done that as well. But I can only talk about so much in a single post. Also, it's not like these discussions are linked and follow a certain timeline. The title of this thread is "Riddick Bowe underrated?".....So, my responses were geared more towards the totality of Bowe's career rather than on a specific time frame or fight or two in his career. If the title of the thread was "Did Riddick Bowe disgrace the title?", I would have said that he did by ducking Lewis and fighting bums......But that's not the question that my responses were geared towards.

But I stand by my assertion that Larry Holmes and George Foreman would not have fought Larry Donald or Herbie Hide. And I think Larry Donald and Herbie Hide were clearly a step above Axel Schultz.

[ripcity]

It depends on where you rank him. I think he dose very well head 2 head but his tittle reign was too short to make him an ATG.

[Vantage_West]

Great post Sonny,

Rock Newman was certainly a prick. He was constantly shooting his mouth off, starting fights with other fighters managers and basically making a spectacle of himself. I have always blamed him for Bowe not fighting Lewis, and felt that he did his fighter no service by being responsible for that fight not happening.

As for Riddick's comp, I agree as well. One thing that is commonly overlooked, is that he was never Ko'd in his 45 pro fights, and took two out of 3 against the only man who beat him. That's coming pretty damn close to being undefeated if anyone asks me. The Golata fights did him no service, but I truly believe that Riddick was past his best, and Golata was fighting horribly dirty on top of everything else. I don't know how well I'd do if some body was constantly hitting me in the nuts all night long.

Bowe indeed beat some good fighters like you say. Piere Coetzer was a better fighter than people give him credit for and was a solid number one contender in June of 1992, when they had there title elimination match. He was a sculpted specimen who was reasonably young at age 30, and was actively fighting beating decent comp before meeting Bowe. Seldon was an OK fighter. Gonzalez, Donald and Hide as you say were at least undefeated.

Bowe has my vote as a top 15 or 20 guy.jus to confirm the rock newman "strange claims" after a tight round riddick kicks him and then rock grabs him in a headlcok and throws him over the top rope...absolutly crazy:patsch

[Russell]

Donald Hide and Gonzalez where at best B- fighters.

I'd rather face a B-Level fighter with five losses with little to gain as opposed to a streaking, undefeated b-level fighter.

[mr. magoo]

=AnthonyJ74] I never intended for anyone to assume that I only believe George Foreman had disgraced the belt; there have been countless others who have done that as well


This was not what I had an issue with.


But I stand by my assertion that Larry Holmes and George Foreman would not have fought Larry Donald or Herbie Hide. And I think Larry Donald and Herbie Hide were clearly a step above Axel Schultz.

Here is where I took issue. You said that Bowe fought prospects like Donald and Hide AFTER his championship was gone. I assumed you meant that Foreman, right around the same or similar time frame would not touch Donald or Hide AFTER his championship was gone. I in turn mentioned that he DID in fact fight guys who WERE on par with Donald and Hide, and those men were Shannon Briggs and Lou Savarese. Yes, they were on the same plain, and Briggs may even have been a bit better.

[crippet]

I bet Bowe would not be even ranked in the top 50 if he wasn't American!!

As for him being a Warrior!! Excuse me while I laugh like a drain.

He even needed to be armed with a fork before he bravely beat his own wife up!!

Riddick Bowe - Overrated Fat Forker!

[godking]

THe other day the topic was about George Foreman, so most of my responses were directed at George Foreman. The whole jist of my response was focused on George Foreman and his second championship. I never intended for anyone to assume that I only believe George Foreman had disgraced the belt; there have been countless others who have done that as well. But I can only talk about so much in a single post. Also, it's not like these discussions are linked and follow a certain timeline. The title of this thread is "Riddick Bowe underrated?".....So, my responses were geared more towards the totality of Bowe's career rather than on a specific time frame or fight or two in his career. If the title of the thread was "Did Riddick Bowe disgrace the title?", I would have said that he did by ducking Lewis and fighting bums......But that's not the question that my responses were geared towards.

But I stand by my assertion that Larry Holmes and George Foreman would not have fought Larry Donald or Herbie Hide. And I think Larry Donald and Herbie Hide were clearly a step above Axel Schultz.The Same Larry Holmes who fought Mercer at 42 would not fight Hide & Donald ?

Foreman probably would not fight them Holmes would if you paid him.

[Marciano Frazier]

I agree. I think Bowe is a little underrated. He's presently my #16 all-time heavyweight, though that can and has shifted.

[crippet]

THe other day the topic was about George Foreman, so most of my responses were directed at George Foreman. The whole jist of my response was focused on George Foreman and his second championship. I never intended for anyone to assume that I only believe George Foreman had disgraced the belt; there have been countless others who have done that as well. But I can only talk about so much in a single post. Also, it's not like these discussions are linked and follow a certain timeline. The title of this thread is "Riddick Bowe underrated?".....So, my responses were geared more towards the totality of Bowe's career rather than on a specific time frame or fight or two in his career. If the title of the thread was "Did Riddick Bowe disgrace the title?", I would have said that he did by ducking Lewis and fighting bums......But that's not the question that my responses were geared towards.

But I stand by my assertion that Larry Holmes and George Foreman would not have fought Larry Donald or Herbie Hide. And I think Larry Donald and Herbie Hide were clearly a step above Axel Schultz.

Larry Holmes fought Mercer who is a class above Donald and Hide

They both fought Holifield and George fought Moorer - better than Donald or Hide

[MagnaNasakki]

Bowe had a very good career.

Not a top10 career. But a good one. Top20 or 30.

It still remains that Holyfield is his only great win, and it was avenged on him. He also faded VERY fast, and his resume is thin in that it is woefully incomplete. You have the good journeyman, the prospects, the contenders, then the win over the great fighter and the beginning of the title reign.

This is the first step to greatness, and alone deserves to be well regarded and it is.

But he loses his title after defending it against the two journeyman to the man he took it from, looks poor overpowering the man in a third fight where his foe is in dubious condition, and then, taking on his most formidable foe other than Holyfield, despite winning by DQ, is trounced twice. He had good wins after losing his title, but he never was great again. Great for one or two nights does not an ATG make. It does make him a very good transitional champion, a talented fighter and a h2h handful.

His career up through Holyfield 1 is why he's highly regarded. What happens after is extremely mediocre, keeps him from true greatness, and makes most of what he has potential, rather than results. Bowe is as much coulda as did.

[Seamus]

Overrated. Shit fighter. Please tell me who his second best victim is.

[p.Townend]

He gets overlooked which is a shame.He was poorly managed and should have sorted it out.In 92/93 it looked like he was going to have a long and prosperous career,it would have been hard to imagine back then that Bowe would be a forgotten man come 2011.
He should have fought Lewis in 93,he would have beaten Lewis back then.Had that happened it would have set his career on the right path.
As it is apart from the Holy fights he has a pretty poor record.Dokes,Fergerson,Hide,Donald and then the Golota fights.It should have come to so much more.People overlook him rather than underrate him,I dont think his ability was ever in doubt its just that he never used it.When talking about Bowe its always what could have been.

[TIGEREDGE]

he deserved to underatted with his lack of dedication. if he got his act together he would be up there with the best

[Cheese]

It's a shame. Bowe had the potential to be a threat in the 90's but he just wouldn't stay in shape.