joe frazier: underated or overated?

[Vantage_West]

now joe frazier is totally sat on in this forum.
i feel that he:
beat the top contenders of his day. and was the truth at heavywieght of the early 70's.hard to hit ,hit hard left hook would decapitate you if it landed on you. was the inventor of most gaurd, defence and weavin movments of the modern boxer and was a presequite of the philly shell.
was half blind when he fought ali and foreman his left eye which was not useful when your main weapon is the left hook. had arthritis in both knees both wrists and was suffering high blood pressure which he needed prescribed drugs to stop overheating and damaging his heart which happend anyway. my number 6 heavywieght


but then some people say he:
was knocked out by a very rudimentery unskilled george foreman and was beaten by an out of prime ali.fought men who wouldnt pass nowaday standard. supposevly had a weak chin nd used his left hook all the time. couldnt box well only fight his way to the cards, was easily hit by jabs and right hands was slow plodding and ponderous.doesnt reach top 10

anyways who feels that he is overated and underated?

[rekcutnevets]

I rank him as the number 8 heavyweight all time. I have never averaged where others have him, but if it is much higher than that I'd say he's overrated. If it is much lower than that, I'd say he's underrated.

Wait unti this thread runs a bit, and you may have an answer.

[Jack]

I think he's underrated. People put too much weight on his loss to Foreman and excuse his biggest win, because Ali was past his prime.

I don't think either are fair at all. For one, I would pick people who were nowhjere near the class of Foreman to beat him on that night. I just think he was done. he wasn't training, he was in bad health, he was...shot. I'm not saying it's not a bad mark on his record, because it obviously is, but you have to take into consideration how badly he had deteriorated. The Ali fight took everything he had out of him. Combine that with the underconditioning for this fight and it was inevitable.

I don't like the idea that people write-off his win over Ali because he was old. Ali cemented his legacy after their first fight and went on to beat some great fighters after this. Both men weren't at their best for this fight, and Ali probably came in stronger. Frazier was already worn as a fighter, and his best years were at the last 60's. Why does no-one mention this?

Frazier was a fantastic fighter who beats most ATG's.

[rekcutnevets]

I don't believe he was far past his peak when he met George, but a lot of peope seem to.

He was still in his 20' when he fought George, and he was still able to fight after the Foreman fight. I'll admit he never quite looked the same after the Foreman fight, as he did before it. He still went on to have some good performances though. I still blame his strategy against Foreman in the first fight. Frazier did better in their rematch, and this was a few years and a lot of damage later.

I still say Frazier is a top 10 all timer, but I think top 5 is too much.

[TBooze]

My all-time #12 Heavyweight. He had a massive advantage over most Heavies in that he fought in the golden era of the division and met top notch opposition. And with the exception of Ali and Foreman he showed his dominance*

*Norton I suppose as well; but I think that is similar(ish) to putting down Wlad or Vitali for not fighting each other...

[JohnThomas1]

I don't think either are fair at all. For one, I would pick people who were nowhjere near the class of Foreman to beat him on that night. I just think he was done. he wasn't training, he was in bad health, he was...shot.

You make it sound like he should have been on an invalid pension or life support Jack. To be honest i think you exaggerate a bit on this one.

[Vantage_West]

well in the 2nd foreman fight he did a floyd patterson he was in his punchers stance but was dancing at the same time. using a sort of jab jumping in striking and gettin out quick he showed a great performance on how a man who had fought in a style for 18 years could change it up and make it a different boxers friendly style.
i place him so highly becuase of his domination of the division against the best....and i mean the best especially for a man who was a cruiser wieght.
he had beaten ali who wasnt that far of from being out of prime. he had beaten bonavena and quarry. so it wasnt like he was out of it and frazier took the brunt of the force and took it back. if you look at the thrilla fight when joes' right eye closed...tht was it he was legaly bling in the left he was a blind fighter just using his instincts to fight and after all that he was still in a chance to win.
actually has he ever been outboxed? ive never seen him get out worked or outskilled.

hard to beat only big opwershot men could win lennox ,george,vitali (not wlad as he doesnt push his man away like vitali did), maybe larry , maybe louis....people who are big stay away and land big right hands,with a jab to stay clear of him. out of any other fighter i see few others beatin ghim marciano didnt have the handpeed or defencive mnouvers tyson didnt have the abilty to put enough punishment on him.

[Vantage_West]

You make it sound like he should have been on an invalid pension or life support Jack. To be honest i think you exaggerate a bit on this one.

legally blind in left eye
fucked knees
high blood pressure
arthritis
and not to mention the drugs to keep him in training in the gym or in a fight
yeah a pension doesnt sound that bad

[KTFO]

A bit underrated. Wins against Ellis,Quarry,Bugner,Foster,Bonavena,Mathis,Chuvalo,Machen. Victories over those journeymen with names don't sound bad.
Ali was just too tricky and Foreman too powerful and big for Frazier. Although he had some tremendous shots against Ali and could take loads of punches. Unfortunately he couldn't take Foreman's monster-haymaker.

[mcvey]

now joe frazier is totally sat on in this forum.
i feel that he:
beat the top contenders of his day. and was the truth at heavywieght of the early 70's.hard to hit ,hit hard left hook would decapitate you if it landed on you. was the inventor of most gaurd, defence and weavin movments of the modern boxer and was a presequite of the philly shell.
was half blind when he fought ali and foreman his left eye which was not useful when your main weapon is the left hook. had arthritis in both knees both wrists and was suffering high blood pressure which he needed prescribed drugs to stop overheating and damaging his heart which happend anyway. my number 6 heavywieght


but then some people say he:
was knocked out by a very rudimentery unskilled george foreman and was beaten by an out of prime ali.fought men who wouldnt pass nowaday standard. supposevly had a weak chin nd used his left hook all the time. couldnt box well only fight his way to the cards, was easily hit by jabs and right hands was slow plodding and ponderous.doesnt reach top 10

anyways who feels that he is overated and underated?
Frziers most famous fights are the three with Ali and the two with Foreman,five fights of which he won one,after beating a comebacking Ali in his best fight Frazier defended against Terry Daniels and Ron Stander,this hurts his legacy in my book,one of his number one contenders wa s Leotis Martin ,Fraziers people didnt want that fight ,nor one against an aging Liston,Frazier a great fighter ,but he just makes my topten,his wins over Quarry were impressive but Manuel Ramos and Dave Zygliewiz dont cut it for me.

[McGrain]

my number 6 heavywieght


anyways who feels that he is overated and underated?


I have him at 7.

I was speaking about this the other day in the "your 11-20" heavyweights thread.

He has the biggest win in heavyweight history and an absolutley nightmarish style. Coulpe these things with his insane bravery and I think your talking about a fighter straight from Hell - Ali (#1) would agree.

[surreal deal]

legally blind in left eye
fucked knees
high blood pressure
arthritis
and not to mention the drugs to keep him in training in the gym or in a fight
yeah a pension doesnt sound that bad
very interesting.can you qualify all of this?

[Sonny's jab]

I would have him around number 6 heavyweight of all time, and above Rocky Marciano for what it's worth.

[groove]

Ellis, Quarry, Foster etc were journeymen. LOL. Frazier was undefeated til he lost to Foreman. He only lost to 2 fighters - both all-time greats. He should be in the top 10.

[mr. magoo]

[quote=KTFO]A bit underrated. Wins against Ellis,Quarry,Bugner,Foster,Bonavena,Mathis,Chuvalo,Machen. Victories over those journeymen with names don't sound bad.



These men were NOT journeyman....

[McGrain]

[quote]



These men were NOT journeyman....

Seconded, Magoo.

But neither was Braddock, you swine.

[KTFO]

These men were NOT journeyman....



Sure they were. Maybe A- or B-class journeymen. But journeymen.

[McGrain]

Sure they were. Maybe A- or B-class journeymen. But journeymen.

WTF is an A- class journeyman?

You're not another one of these people who doesn't really know what a journeyman is are you?

[KTFO]

WTF is an A- class journeyman?


A first-class journeyman.

[McGrain]

A first-class journeyman.

So, what's a journeyman?

[TBooze]

So, what's a journeyman?

Any experienced, competent but routine fighter.

[McGrain]

Any experienced, competent but routine fighter.

I know that you dipshit, I wanted to see what he would say.

I also feel like it's a guy who hasn't improved since the end of their apprenticeship, you know, just didn't come on in terms of ability as he moved up.

[Senya13]

Overrated.

[KTFO]

So, what's a journeyman?


C'mon, don't make me laugh.

[Sakura]

well in the 2nd foreman fight he did a floyd patterson he was in his punchers stance but was dancing at the same time. using a sort of jab jumping in striking and gettin out quick he showed a great performance on how a man who had fought in a style for 18 years could change it up and make it a different boxers friendly style.
i place him so highly becuase of his domination of the division against the best....and i mean the best especially for a man who was a cruiser wieght.
he had beaten ali who wasnt that far of from being out of prime. he had beaten bonavena and quarry. so it wasnt like he was out of it and frazier took the brunt of the force and took it back. if you look at the thrilla fight when joes' right eye closed...tht was it he was legaly bling in the left he was a blind fighter just using his instincts to fight and after all that he was still in a chance to win.
actually has he ever been outboxed? ive never seen him get out worked or outskilled.

hard to beat only big opwershot men could win lennox ,george,vitali (not wlad as he doesnt push his man away like vitali did), maybe larry , maybe louis....people who are big stay away and land big right hands,with a jab to stay clear of him. out of any other fighter i see few others beatin ghim marciano didnt have the handpeed or defencive mnouvers tyson didnt have the abilty to put enough punishment on him.

Protest, about you're saying that wlad dont win Frasier..this guy is smaller than CHRIS BYRD about 5'11, 205,5 lb...wlad will kill him, with his jab..frasier never get close enought.

[KTFO]

Protest, about you're saying that wlad dont win Frasier..this guy is smaller than CHRIS BYRD about 5'11, 205,5 lb...wlad will kill him, with his jab..frasier never get close enought.


Yeh, he probably would brewster him.

[Mendoza]

Frazier is impossible to under rate as a fighter. He put forth great effort! However when the conversation shifts to all time great heavyweights, Frazier is not a top ten guy in my opinion. Frazier wins over Ali counts for a lot. Yes, but Cooper, and Jones nearly beat Ali pre Frazier. Young, and Shavers nearly or did beat Ali depending on your scoring preference. And of course Norton, Holmes, Spinks, and Berbick did beat Ali.

Frazier resume outside of the Ali and Foreman fights where he was 1-4 overall is somewhat thin for a top ten all time great. If Frazier had fought or beat Lyle, Liston, Norton, Shavers, R. Williams, Martin, M. Foster, we could say he could defeat a puncher who was his size or greater. Instead Frazier management preferred to match him vs non punchers or smaller boxer types who simply could not get Smokin’ Joe’s respect.

[Marciano Frazier]

Protest, about you're saying that wlad dont win Frasier..this guy is smaller than CHRIS BYRD about 5'11, 205,5 lb...wlad will kill him, with his jab..frasier never get close enought. Frazier was not smaller than Chris Byrd. Note that Byrd was 168 pounds when he was 23-24 years old- Frazier was already over 200 by that age. Byrd puffed himself up to fight at heavyweight.

Either way, though, your argument is paper thin. Lennox Lewis was smaller than Primo Carnera, so by your logic, I suppose Max Baer would batter him around the ring like a ragdoll, too.

Frazier was not a cautious, light-hitting defensive fighter who was uncomfortable being aggressive like Byrd, nor did he march forward blocking punches with his face like Lamon Brewster. Frazier was hyper-aggressive, he was fast, he came in low and had good head movement, he had an extremely high workrate, a murderous body attack and devastating knockout power in his left. Frazier would be all over Klitschko, and he would batter him to the body and break him down with non-stop pressure. Klitschko would be sagging around the ring by the middle rounds, at which time I expect Frazier would close the show.

[Sakura]

Frazier was not smaller than Chris Byrd. Note that Byrd was 168 pounds when he was 23-24 years old- Frazier was already over 200 by that age. Byrd puffed himself up to fight at heavyweight.

Either way, though, your argument is paper thin. Lennox Lewis was smaller than Primo Carnera, so by your logic, I suppose Max Baer would batter him around the ring like a ragdoll, too.

Frazier was not a cautious, light-hitting defensive fighter who was uncomfortable being aggressive like Byrd, nor did he march forward blocking punches with his face like Lamon Brewster. Frazier was hyper-aggressive, he was fast, he came in low and had good head movement, he had an extremely high workrate, a murderous body attack and devastating knockout power in his left. Frazier would be all over Klitschko, and he would batter him to the body and break him down with non-stop pressure. Klitschko would be sagging around the ring by the middle rounds, at which time I expect Frazier would close the show.

Maybe i'm wrong but i wanna see that day, when wlad will lost, much smaller opponent, like Byrd or Frasier size fighter. Lamon is by the way, much heavier fighter with very good chin (Frasier chin is not that good)and good punch.

Seem's like almost everyone thinks that you can break wlad by punch to the body. It's much easier to say than do it. You must take hard punishment to do that and there is no many guys in history, who can do it, or maybe not anyone. klitchko with Stewart is strategy is almost unbeaten.

[MachineGunMitch]

I heard the guy fought injured and half blind and still kicked ass....
Id say top 8 ATG,and underated---He would destroy many of whats out there today and he did beat the greatest of all time

[TBooze]

I know that you dipshit, I wanted to see what he would say.


Then why ask?? We are not here to make fools of people...





However tempting ;)

[quintonjacksonfan]

I think overall he is rated fairly. Most people have him rated 8 or 9

He beat everyone he was supposed to beat

You don't see any losses to guys like Moorer or Rahman on his resume

He also gave the greatest heavyweight ever his first loss in the biggest

fight in boxing history.

[KTFO]

Then why ask?? We are not here to make fools of people...





However tempting




Let him go. He's just desperate and trying cause he knows that I own him.

[Jupiter1610]

Frazier resume outside of the Ali and Foreman fights where he was 1-4 overall is somewhat thin for a top ten all time great.

Underated, and likely one of the most grossly underrated heavies. Chuavlo, Mathis, Bonavena, Quarry, Ellis, Foster, Stander, Ramos, Machen... these are top quality contenders, by no means journeymen. Many believe that Quarry may have been champion if having fought in a less competitive era and arguably the best HW contender of all time. Frazier beat him twice. The quality of his competition is second only to Ali and his only two losses come to two top ten HWs. The two losses in which he receives the most criticism, involve a prime fighter who was his ultimate stylistic mismatch. How many champions faced such a tailor made opponent (only Patterson/Liston seems as extreme). Marciano certainly never faced a big puncher of such caliber (and don't say Louis, as he was roughly a decade outside his best).
Combine Frazier's other victories with a win against the man many consider to be the ATG HW (and providing Ali some of his toughest wins), and that gives him a significant bump. My greatest criticism of Frazier would be his limited number of professional fights. However given his health limitations and the severity of his bouts, it is understandable why his career was so limited. I think that he should be in the number 5 range, and certainly never outside the top ten.

[McGrain]

Then why ask?? We are not here to make fools of people...

People quite often make fools of themselves!

I'd rank those that name good fighters amongst the ranks of journeymen firmly in that category.

But more often than not these guys don't know what a journeyman actually is, and a little thought can steer them back on to the path of rightiousness ;)

[McGrain]

Let him go. He's just desperate and trying cause he knows that I own him.

That's right.

[JohnThomas1]

legally blind in left eye
fucked knees
high blood pressure
arthritis
and not to mention the drugs to keep him in training in the gym or in a fightyeah a pension doesnt sound that bad

Yeah sure, he was worse than Ali in the Holmes fight. Imagine him above 4.3%.

Personally i think he is quite underrated by the vast majority, but there's obviously a couple who overrate him IMO. A much bigger hitter than most realise.

[fists of fury]

Honestly, I think he's a bit overrated, assuming he makes the top 10 more often than not.

What doesn't sit well with me is that people are all too ready to make excuses for his devastating loss to Foreman. Hey, George fought plenty of guys he didn't drop 6 times in 2 rounds, so why Frazier?

It's been said earlier that he was shot. SHOT? Hardly. He was competitive twice against Ali AFTER Foreman. Maybe a little overconfident and unprepared, but hardly shot. Still though, even a slightly unprepared and overconfident Frazier should have done better than he did. Much better. he managed to throw one solitary left hook of note (To which George after the fight said: "You mean THAT was his left hook?") and was completely devastated in a fashion that draws parallels with Dempsey-Willard.
Perhaps Frazier WAS made to order for Foreman, but some say the same about Arguello and Pryor, Holyfield and Tyson or Trinidad and Hopkins, but at least the losers, or the made-to-order guy in these cases, were competitive although they ultimately lost. At worst, they were competitive for a while. Joe was not even for one moment competitive with Foreman.

Should an ATG at any time, lose his title in such one-sided circumstances? What helps Frazier's legacy immeasurably is that he lost embarrasingly to George Foreman, another man more people than not have in their ATG lists) and had two thrilling fights with Ali, whose pedigree in my eyes can't be questioned. (Their second fight wasn't that compelling, imo)
However, it's almost by association that Frazier becomes an ATG if you ask me, because he fought two of them and did very well against one of them. Hell, even Ken Norton gets an occasional mention in ATG debates almost purely for beating Ali once, who wasn't in top condition for the first fight.
Seriously, take the Ali win away and what is Joe's legacy? It's pretty decent, but it loses a whole lot in the transition. If a fighter is truly a great, you could take his best win away and he should still have enough left for his legacy to back up the claim to stand without that win. (I'm not articulating that well, but I think you guys will get what I'm trying to say.)

Was Joe somewhat fortunate when Ali was stripped of his title? I think so. It gave him an opportunity to become champion and establish a real name for himself without any really stiff competition. I don't think Joe would have become champ if Ali had not been forced to retire for three years. He was clearly the best heavy during that time, or at least of the active fighters, but there weren't any really dangerous fighters during that time either. Quick - what did Buster Mathis do aside from fight Joe for the title? Jimmy Ellis? Sure, decent enough, but they were not outstanding fighters, or even very good ones.
Bobby Foster wasn't even a blown-up light-heavyweight - he was a light-heavyweight!
Dave Zyglewicz? Ron Standers? Terry Daniels? Somehow Frazier gets a free pass for fighting these very mediocre fighters. Louis, Holmes and Marciano among others have been slammed for fighting so-called weak opposition, but almost nobody mention's Frazier's soft touches. Instead, the focus is on the Ali fights.

His win over Ali was magnificent; I cannot argue that, but it just wasn't the same Ali. He had only 2 fights under his belt before that and had yet to hit his straps in the 70's. Yet, he still managed to send Frazier to the hospital for a week and give him a hell of a fight. After that, he lost 2/3 and got dropped a total of 8 times over two fights by Foreman.
As I said, his legacy has benefitted enormously from fighting in a very competitive era (even though Joe did not fight many of the 'names' back then) and from fighting two of the most renowned names in the last 40 years. He won one and lost the others against Ali and Foreman. Norton did no worse than that, and actually did better (imo) against Ali than Joe did.

The way I'm carrying on you'd imagine I'm a Frazier hater. I'm not. I like the guy and I admire his tenacity, guts and willingness to fight. His left was a beaut. He gave us two classic fights and one horrible disaster of a fight.
If I were in the habit of drawing up lists, I'd put him somewhere in the top 15 and in a head-to-head sense maybe around the same, maybe a bit lower. I think that's fair.
Sorry, but he dosn't cut it as a true great for me.

[bigG]

one of my favourite heavyweights......skillwise, i think the guy is anyones top ten..or should be.....but for heart and will....probably one of the gutsiest hw of all time..joe woulda fought a freight train...and maybe derailed it!..a hard style to deal with for anyone, an unquenchable will to win and a superb workrate/work ethic.....i reckon him and ali were made for each other style for style....they would always have fought give and take wars.....i place joe behind ali, louis, dempsey, liston, lewis, holyfield, holmes and foreman..(in no order....)..but ahead of marciano and tyson........frazier vs tyson or marciano are my ultimate dream fights!!

[KTFO]

That's right.


I know,thanks.

[MrMagic]

On this forum(Boxing forum) I see people praising guys like James Toney, but discrediting Joe Frazier.
I'm still trying to find out why :huh

[TBooze]

On this forum(Boxing forum) I see people praising guys like James Toney, but discrediting Joe Frazier.
I'm still trying to find out why :huh

Toney is a drugs cheat, his entire career is tainted, thankfully for Joe and his knockouts, we are here to critique Frazier's boxing ability, which was exceptional, rather than singing ability, which was not.;)

[groove]

Frazier lost bad against Foreman. Lewis lost early ko twice. Foreman was the only one to ko him early. That Foreman would've ko'd a lot of great fighters - he did the same to Norton.

[Mendoza]

Underated, and likely one of the most grossly underrated heavies. Chuavlo, Mathis, Bonavena, Quarry, Ellis, Foster, Stander, Ramos, Machen... these are top quality contenders, by no means journeymen. Many believe that Quarry may have been champion if having fought in a less competitive era and arguably the best HW contender of all time. Frazier beat him twice. The quality of his competition is second only to Ali and his only two losses come to two top ten HWs. The two losses in which he receives the most criticism, involve a prime fighter who was his ultimate stylistic mismatch. How many champions faced such a tailor made opponent (only Patterson/Liston seems as extreme). Marciano certainly never faced a big puncher of such caliber (and don't say Louis, as he was roughly a decade outside his best).

Combine Frazier's other victories with a win against the man many consider to be the ATG HW (and providing Ali some of his toughest wins), and that gives him a significant bump. My greatest criticism of Frazier would be his limited number of professional fights. However given his health limitations and the severity of his bouts, it is understandable why his career was so limited. I think that he should be in the number 5 range, and certainly never outside the top ten.

While the fighters you listed were by no means journeyman I can’t think of any all time great who would lose to them either. Frazier did not have an easy time with Bonevena the first time. I thought the fight was a draw, and Ocsar was very close to knocking Frazier out. Bonevena, outside of Foreman was the best puncher Frazier fought. Look at the results. Frazier was down on two score cards to Buster Mathis before his superior stamina took over late in the fight.

Frazier resume outside of the Ali and Foreman fights where he was 1-4 overall is somewhat thin for a top ten all time great. If Frazier had fought or beat Lyle, Liston, Patterson, Norton, Shavers, R. Williams, Martin, M. Foster, we could say he could defeat a puncher who was his size or greater. Instead Frazier management preferred to match him vs non punchers or smaller boxer types who simply could not get Smokin’ Joe’s respect.

I see no case for Frazier being in the top five. Top ten is doable at 8, 9, or 10, but for me Frazier is out of the top ten.

[mr. magoo]

=Mendoza]While the fighters you listed were by no means journeyman I can’t think of any all time great who would lose to them either.


I understand what you're trying to say here, but I'm not so sure that I agree. Mike Tyson lost to James Douglas. Lennox Lewis lost to Oliver Mccall and Hasim Rahman. Muhammad Ali, although past his prime should not have lost to Leon Spinks. Max Baer was beaten by James Braddock, and so on and so forth. What's more, I would have to place Bonavena, Ellis, Quarry, Mathis and some of the others that Frazier fought, higher than Douglas, Mccall, L. Spinks, and Braddock. Especially given that they competed through a log jam of talent during a 7-10 year period. You may tend to differ, but frankly, I could see some of those guys as potentially reaching linear champion status in certain other eras...

[robert ungurean]

Underated!

[Ramon Rojo]

He´s very underrated by some people here.

Anyone who doesn´t have Frazier in their top10 alltime heavyweight list is underrating him.

[biggamejames]

I wouldd say that time has underrated his value and I am a BIG Ali fan but Frazier just misses the the top 5 but Definitely a top 10 ATG just on the Ali triology just a litte tidbit about frazier:He called out Ali b4 Ali's exile and they didnt want no parts of Frazier and he broke Holmes ribs sparring with him and that's why Holmes went to Ali.

[fists of fury]

[quote=biggamejames]Definitely a top 10 ATG just on the Ali triology quote]

I rest my case.

[Senya13]

High level of competition (outside of Ali and Foreman)? Haha.

[Holmes' Jab]

Grossly under-rated, certainly amongst ESB circles.

Far too much is made of his two losses to Foreman- who in truth was taylor made to steamroller him (and most swarmers), Frazier was near enough completely shot by the return contest anyway, the way in which he kept rising from the canvas umpteen times against Foreman was couragous in the extreme (some would say silly!?). He possessed probably the biggest fighting heart of any HW who ever existed, was also a powerful puncher (fearsome left hook), hellishly awkward to fight against and good at evading punches. His prime also lasted longer than the general consensus suggests.

People do tend to forget how good his record was pre-Ali fight and the manner of most of those victories. Machen, Quarry, Bonavena (x2), Ellis (x2) and Chuvalo- some pretty impressive names to have on your resume. The depth of which: especially in terms of record against Top ranked contenders is certainly better than, say Foreman. FOTC vs Ali was the pinnicle- not too many fighters in history would have defeated Joe that night. He also gave him two other hellish fights, Manilla being extremely close before Futch wisely pulled Frazier out (with Ali exausted)

Frazier is at #6 on my all time list of Heavyweights. :good

[ironchamp]

Honestly, I think he's a bit overrated, assuming he makes the top 10 more often than not.

What doesn't sit well with me is that people are all too ready to make excuses for his devastating loss to Foreman. Hey, George fought plenty of guys he didn't drop 6 times in 2 rounds, so why Frazier?

It's been said earlier that he was shot. SHOT? Hardly. He was competitive twice against Ali AFTER Foreman. Maybe a little overconfident and unprepared, but hardly shot. Still though, even a slightly unprepared and overconfident Frazier should have done better than he did. Much better. he managed to throw one solitary left hook of note (To which George after the fight said: "You mean THAT was his left hook?") and was completely devastated in a fashion that draws parallels with Dempsey-Willard.
Perhaps Frazier WAS made to order for Foreman, but some say the same about Arguello and Pryor, Holyfield and Tyson or Trinidad and Hopkins, but at least the losers, or the made-to-order guy in these cases, were competitive although they ultimately lost. At worst, they were competitive for a while. Joe was not even for one moment competitive with Foreman.

Should an ATG at any time, lose his title in such one-sided circumstances? What helps Frazier's legacy immeasurably is that he lost embarrasingly to George Foreman, another man more people than not have in their ATG lists) and had two thrilling fights with Ali, whose pedigree in my eyes can't be questioned. (Their second fight wasn't that compelling, imo)
However, it's almost by association that Frazier becomes an ATG if you ask me, because he fought two of them and did very well against one of them. Hell, even Ken Norton gets an occasional mention in ATG debates almost purely for beating Ali once, who wasn't in top condition for the first fight.
Seriously, take the Ali win away and what is Joe's legacy? It's pretty decent, but it loses a whole lot in the transition. If a fighter is truly a great, you could take his best win away and he should still have enough left for his legacy to back up the claim to stand without that win. (I'm not articulating that well, but I think you guys will get what I'm trying to say.)

Was Joe somewhat fortunate when Ali was stripped of his title? I think so. It gave him an opportunity to become champion and establish a real name for himself without any really stiff competition. I don't think Joe would have become champ if Ali had not been forced to retire for three years. He was clearly the best heavy during that time, or at least of the active fighters, but there weren't any really dangerous fighters during that time either. Quick - what did Buster Mathis do aside from fight Joe for the title? Jimmy Ellis? Sure, decent enough, but they were not outstanding fighters, or even very good ones.
Bobby Foster wasn't even a blown-up light-heavyweight - he was a light-heavyweight!
Dave Zyglewicz? Ron Standers? Terry Daniels? Somehow Frazier gets a free pass for fighting these very mediocre fighters. Louis, Holmes and Marciano among others have been slammed for fighting so-called weak opposition, but almost nobody mention's Frazier's soft touches. Instead, the focus is on the Ali fights.

His win over Ali was magnificent; I cannot argue that, but it just wasn't the same Ali. He had only 2 fights under his belt before that and had yet to hit his straps in the 70's. Yet, he still managed to send Frazier to the hospital for a week and give him a hell of a fight. After that, he lost 2/3 and got dropped a total of 8 times over two fights by Foreman.
As I said, his legacy has benefitted enormously from fighting in a very competitive era (even though Joe did not fight many of the 'names' back then) and from fighting two of the most renowned names in the last 40 years. He won one and lost the others against Ali and Foreman. Norton did no worse than that, and actually did better (imo) against Ali than Joe did.

The way I'm carrying on you'd imagine I'm a Frazier hater. I'm not. I like the guy and I admire his tenacity, guts and willingness to fight. His left was a beaut. He gave us two classic fights and one horrible disaster of a fight.
If I were in the habit of drawing up lists, I'd put him somewhere in the top 15 and in a head-to-head sense maybe around the same, maybe a bit lower. I think that's fair.
Sorry, but he dosn't cut it as a true great for me.

I agree with most of what you are saying here. But for he does make my top 10 list although there are times I can place him as low as 11 and as high as 9.

There isnt much I can add to this but I do appreciate the fact that you pointed out that Frazier gets a pass for fighting in a competitive era. His losses to Foreman undermine his standings IMO especially the first one where he gets blown out in the most embarrasing fashion. Do I think he's overrated? Sometimes but if you don't acknowledge he's an ATG or at least a top 11 fighter then yes you are underrating him.

[C. M. Clay II]

When ever you mention Frazier beating Ali people wil say Ali was past his prime.Ali was about 29 or 30 and yet that is past his prime?Ali is the only fighter in boxing history who was past this prime at 30.

If anything Ali was alot fresher than most 30 year old guys since he was away from boxing for 3 years giving his body a chance to heal and rest.

The point being Frazier destroy Ali when they were both in their primes.

Frazier would never be able to beat somebody like Vitali Klitschko or even Wlad.I doubt he could beat Lewis

Even a guy like Gerry Cooney would probably knock him out because of the height and power he posses.

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[mr. magoo]

Norton,Frazier and Foreman are all underated just to make Ali seem better than he was.When ever you mention Frazier beating Ali people wil say Ali was past his prime.Ali was about 29 or 30 and yet that is past his prime?Ali is the only fighter in boxing history who was past this prime at 30.If anything Ali was alot fresher than most 30 year old guys since he was away from boxing for 3 years giving his body a chance to heal and rest.The point being Frazier destroy Ali when they were both in their primes.After Foreman beat Frazier he should of never fought again.He was done.
Frazier was better than people say he is now but he would always struggle against guys who were bigger in weight and height than he was.He would never be able to beat somebody like Vitali Klitschko or even Wlad.I doubt he could beat Lewis or even a guy like Gerry Cooney would probably knock him out because of the height and power he posses.
Frazier was a good fighter who gets underated when compared to Ali but gets overated when attempting to match him with other big punchers in boxing history.

This is one of the most poorly written and misguided posts that I've seen on this forum. Is it a joke?

[janitor]

I think he is under rated, especialy relative to subsequent champions.

I am verry much a beleiver that the heavyweights of the 70s are over rated relative to other eras but looking at Frazier I only see substance.

[Vantage_West]

very interesting.can you qualify all of this?


i thought it was common knowledge:huh . but he was followed around by a doctor in his later years. if you look in documentaries of the manilla fight you'll see this white guy in the background thats his doctor.

i know not very incriminating but i will find somthing

[Vantage_West]

Protest, about you're saying that wlad dont win Frasier..this guy is smaller than CHRIS BYRD about 5'11, 205,5 lb...wlad will kill him, with his jab..frasier never get close enought.but he has somthing that wlad fears above all else....left hook:hi:

not just a left hook but maybe the greatest left hook in heavywieght history

you forget his hands speed his defence and non-stop offence look at byrd he is the purest boxer in the heavywieghts uses a jab and phillie roll to move and counter and is southpaw which is weak to the right hand, joe frazier is next to your lungs the whole fight he was only koed by foreman who manhandled him which wlad wasnt good at doing.

and this jab will keep him away??? he has fought ali,foreman,foster maybe the best jabbers at the tpo end of the scale of all time...i can tbelive you think that a JAB stops frazier

[Vantage_West]

Maybe i'm wrong but i wanna see that day, when wlad will lost, much smaller opponent, like Byrd or Frasier size fighter. Lamon is by the way, much heavier fighter with very good chin (Frasier chin is not that good)and good punch.

Seem's like almost everyone thinks that you can break wlad by punch to the body. It's much easier to say than do it. You must take hard punishment to do that and there is no many guys in history, who can do it, or maybe not anyone. klitchko with Stewart is strategy is almost unbeaten.
fraziers chin not that good!!!:think you act like "well everyone knows that huh" what an arrogant thing to say

[Sakura]

Frasier is good fighter and i'll take him over many same size ATG fighters, but Lewis and Klitchkos are definetly to big to win.

If wlad fights...jab,jab and moving backwards or to the side..Frasier never reach him and he eat to much punches..

Wlads have much better and more effective jab than Foreman or anyone else,except Ali or Holmes.

[Vantage_West]

Frasier is good fighter and i'll take him over many same size ATG fighters, but Lewis and Klitchkos are definetly to big to win.

If wlad fights...jab,jab and moving backwards or to the side..Frasier never reach him and he eat to much punches..

Wlads have much better and more effective jab than Foreman or anyone else,except Ali or Holmes.the men who beat him wer men were big but stood in your way ali was fleet footed the first time and became much more flat footed and more a harder target to move away.

lewis was an amazing infighter wlad and vitali are not they are outside fighters launching the firearms form miles away...this would get beaten by a springing left hook.

[Vantage_West]

very interesting.can you qualify all of this?cool i got some stuff

thisis an arcticle about fraziers health in an interview
[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Was your diabetes diagnosed while you were still actively boxing, and if so, how did it affect your athletic career?

I have monthly examinations and if I feel bad for any reason, I will see my doctor as soon as possible.

How did the high blood pressure affect your boxing?

I stay busy traveling around the country for personal appearances, card/trade shows, endorsements and speaking engagements. I enjoy making the fans happy, plus I think it does something for me. I love life and I love people.

What treatment did you receive originally for diabetes?

Micronase [A drug that stimulates the pancreas to produce more insulin] and Minoxidal [a drug which relaxes small blood vessels].

What treatment do you receive now?

My condition today is great!I would like to fight against Evander Holyfield tomorrow. Today I weigh 230 lbs.--people tell me that I'm a "small piece of leather that is well put together." I've stayed on the same track I've been on since my boxing days, [getting] on the floor and [working out with the guys in the gym] to keep them fit and myself [too].
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Do you take any medication for your diabetes?

I have to be careful of what I eat. This is the only restriction that I can think of when it comes to diabetes.

Are there any special routines or restrictions that you follow as a result of your diabetes (i.e., special diet, regular check-ups, limitations on your physical activity, etc.)?

[No, it was diagnosed in 1988]. However, I did have high blood pressure ever since I started fighting.



Do you take any medication for your high blood pressure?

[A number, including:] Procardia [a calcium channel blocker that reduces normal artery pressure], Accupril [which reduces resistance in arteries], Clonidine [which relaxes and allows for the expansion of blood vessel walls], SlowK [a drug which treats potassium deficiency], and Catapres [which relaxes and expands blood vessel walls]. [But], I did not take any medication until 1988 for diabetes or high blood pressure.

[Vantage_West]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
look at the 5 min mark there is a quotation from his doctor this was the guy i was telling you about

[Sakura]

the men who beat him wer men were big but stood in your way ali was fleet footed the first time and became much more flat footed and more a harder target to move away.

lewis was an amazing infighter wlad and vitali are not they are outside fighters launching the firearms form miles away...this would get beaten by a springing left hook.

Ali is definetly more agile, but his punches is so much weaker than those big guy's and Frasier never afraid those punches.

I hope there is someday Wlad vs Tua,that i can prove how difficult is to go inside, skilled bigger fighter. Tua's left hook is also very good and height is same than Joe's

[janitor]

I hope there is someday Wlad vs Tua,that i can prove how difficult is to go inside, skilled bigger fighter. Tua's left hook is also very good and height is same than Joe's

It is one thing to keep Tua on the outside but quite another to keep a polished infighter like Frazier on the outside.

[Vantage_West]

It is one thing to keep Tua on the outside but quite another to keep a polished infighter like Frazier on the outside.tua likes to be in the mid range so his left hook sis precise but if your on the inside of him his left hook and righthand are weakend bec uase they dont have the "throw" like he did against moorer or ruiz.

frazier would piledrive through you thtas the difference he never got tangled up if they did he would just fight his way out

[Sakura]

It is one thing to keep Tua on the outside but quite another to keep a polished infighter like Frazier on the outside.

Surely, but Frasier was never real moving miracle like ali was and i think wlad move quite well novadays. Of course i dont directly compare Frasier and Tua!

[janitor]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
look at the 5 min mark there is a quotation from his doctor this was the guy i was telling you about

You do have to ask what Frazier could have done if he had two working eyes and a healthy body.

He did enough as it is.

[janitor]

[quote=Sakura]Surely, but Frasier was never real moving miracle like ali was

Depends what you mean.

Fraziers head movment and ability to slip punches was awsome. He had no equal at heavyweight except Jack Dempsey.


and i think wlad move quite well novadays.


I am verry interested in Wlads progress but it is a case of wait and see.

[Sakura]

[quote]

Depends what you mean.

Fraziers head movment and ability to slip punches was awsome. He had no equal at heavyweight except Jack Dempsey.



I am verry interested in Wlads progress but it is a case of wait and see.

Frasiers head movement was avesome, but if opponent move backwards same time you cannot get inside, or hug him:roll:

Wlad is novadays much more boring fighter, but also more effective. Good or bad, i dunno...

[janitor]

[quote=Sakura][quote=janitor]
Frasiers head movement was avesome, but if opponent move backwards same time you cannot get inside, or hug him:roll:


In order to hit Wlad would have to expose himself to Frazier getting inside.

Wlad is novadays much more boring fighter, but also more effective. Good or bad, i dunno...

I believe that he could be presented with a stylistic en passe by Frazier.

[yancey]

Definitely underrated.

He makes the Top 5 for me. In fact, if I'm feeling better later tonight, I might move Joe to #1.

[Duodenum]

I generally have Louis at number four, and Frazier at number five, but I sometimes reverse that order.

[mcvey]

[QUOTE]

Depends what you mean.

Fraziers head movment and ability to slip punches was awsome. He had no equal at heavyweight except Jack Dempsey.



I am verry interested in Wlads progress but it is a case of wait and see.
Ali was quoted as saying he found Frazier easy to hit,and if you look at his face after their three fights I think you might agree with him!

[mcvey]

It is one thing to keep Tua on the outside but quite another to keep a polished infighter like Frazier on the outside.
The difference is Tua proved against Lewis ,that he wasnt prepared to pay the price Ali exacted from Frazier to get inside

[JohnThomas1]

The difference is Tua proved against Lewis ,that he wasnt prepared to pay the price Ali exacted from Frazier to get inside

Fair call. Lewis hits far harder than Ali, but by the same token Tua has a vaunted chin. Frazier came prepared to practically die if he had to in order to win.

[ChrisPontius]

In order to hit Wlad would have to expose himself to Frazier getting inside.



No he wouldn't. Wlad's arms coupled with the way he fights (tall, long punches) and Frazier (short stature, short punches, hooks) results in Wlad's range being only twice that of Frazier. Watch Wlad's fight with Brewster, he hit him all the time while barely being hit in return. Now Brewster is no Frazier of course, but you get the point.


I believe that he could be presented with a stylistic en passe by Frazier.

I don't think so, he'll potshot Frazier from the outside while staying away and tieing him up on the inside to prevent Frazier from getting off.


I generally have Louis at number four, and Frazier at number five, but I sometimes reverse that order.


Louis at #4? That's low, who do you have higher than him? If i had to guess from your posts, i'd say Holmes, Ali and Dempsey.

[Maxmomer]

He was an excellent fighter.

[mcvey]

Fair call. Lewis hits far harder than Ali, but by the same token Tua has a vaunted chin. Frazier came prepared to practically die if he had to in order to win.
Far harder,but nowhere near as often,Ali said of Frazier,"whatever the price he will pay it".

[JohnThomas1]

Far harder,but nowhere near as often,Ali said of Frazier,"whatever the price he will pay it".

Yeah, Frazier's long term intensity is frightening.

[mcvey]

but he has somthing that wlad fears above all else....left hook:hi:

not just a left hook but maybe the greatest left hook in heavywieght history

you forget his hands speed his defence and non-stop offence look at byrd he is the purest boxer in the heavywieghts uses a jab and phillie roll to move and counter and is southpaw which is weak to the right hand, joe frazier is next to your lungs the whole fight he was only koed by foreman who manhandled him which wlad wasnt good at doing.

and this jab will keep him away??? he has fought ali,foreman,foster maybe the best jabbers at the tpo end of the scale of all time...i can tbelive you think that a JAB stops frazier
"The greatest left hook in history"who exactly out of top ten rated Heavies did Frazier put down for the count of ten?

[Drew101]

I generally rate him around 8-9, but I think that I might underrate him slightly in terms of head-to-head matchups. Foreman, and perhaps Lewis notwithstanding, I can't think of two many heavyweights in history who wouldn't have an easy time with him at or near his absolute best.

[Duodenum]

In Ali's 1975 autobiography, "The Greatest: My Own Story" ghostwritten by Richard Durham, Frazier is quoted as claiming during a long drive he took Muhammad on during Ali's exile that he was the fastest closing heavyweight champion of all time coming forward. While I think Dempsey actually has that distinction, this claim for Smoke is not far off at all. (My favorite line in the book has Ali thinking while Foreman is struggling to beat the count that, "No referee could count ten over Joe Frazier as long as his body had blood in it," or words to that effect. After this book was published, Joe once again demonstrated the veracity of that statement in his rematch with Foreman.)

As I've discussed previously, I'm not sure that Smoke could have ever taken George in a first time matchup, although he demonstrated against Stander that he could perform extremely well against a powerful advance. (Just check out his excellent footwork at the end of round four on youtube! After watching his brilliant outmaneuvering of the bull Stander, it's easy to understand why he was expected by most to repel Foreman's challenge. In Smoke's final successful title defense, he showed he was perfectly capable of playing the matador's role.) But while a peak Joe might not have been able to take George in a first time bout, I have always believed Frazier would have defeated more of history's other greats than Foreman might, so that's why I rate Joe higher, despite the head to head outcomes.

[round15]

In Ali's 1975 autobiography, "The Greatest: My Own Story" ghostwritten by Richard Durham, Frazier is quoted as claiming during a long drive he took Muhammad on during Ali's exile that he was the fastest closing heavyweight champion of all time coming forward. While I think Dempsey actually has that distinction, this claim for Smoke is not far off at all. (My favorite line in the book has Ali thinking while Foreman is struggling to beat the count that, "No referee could count ten over Joe Frazier as long as his body had blood in it," or words to that effect. After this book was published, Joe once again demonstrated the veracity of that statement in his rematch with Foreman.)

As I've discussed previously, I'm not sure that Smoke could have ever taken George in a first time matchup, although he demonstrated against Stander that he could perform extremely well against a powerful advance. (Just check out his excellent footwork at the end of round four on youtube! After watching his brilliant outmaneuvering of the bull Stander, it's easy to understand why he was expected by most to repel Foreman's challenge. In Smoke's final successful title defense, he showed he was perfectly capable of playing the matador's role.) But while a peak Joe might not have been able to take George in a first time bout, I have always believed Frazier would have defeated more of history's other greats than Foreman might, so that's why I rate Joe higher, despite the head to head outcomes.

Prime Joe Frazier at 203-208 lbs gives every heavyweight in history a very tough fight, even Foreman.

[Curtis Lowe]

Ellis, Quarry, Foster etc were journeymen. LOL. Frazier was undefeated til he lost to Foreman. He only lost to 2 fighters - both all-time greats. He should be in the top 10.

Journeyman? You have either had a lapse in judgment or just don't know what your talking about. Foster was one of the greatest lightheavys of all time, Ellis won a version of the heavyweight title via a tournament and was a top contender for years and Quarry was a top 10 heavyweight for years and was the #1 contender on more than one occasion.

Think before you type in the future!

[Curtis Lowe]

Sure they were. Maybe A- or B-class journeymen. But journeymen.

You are an apparent idiot.

[yancey]

He's overrated and has a chin made from pure glass.



:lol:

[Longhhorn71]

The problem with a Top 10 rating in any sport is as time goes by more quality fighters (& teams) become available to bump out other greats just because of familiarity.

If modern boxing starts in 1895, then the sport is 112 years old and that is a lot of champions.

All those poor quality films of the oldtimers don't do justice to them....the left hooks and right crosses they threw knocked out opponents the same way the same punches do today.

So was Frazier a super Champion ?, to me me YES, just like Ali, Louis, Dempsey, The Rock, Tyson, Lewis, etc, and NOT like Terrell, Jimmy Ellis, and the "this week champions" of the Alphabet Boys we have today.

[yancey]

Seriously, the ONE big puncher on his record bounced him around the ring. Even Oscar " I suck and lost every time i stepped up in class" Bonavena hurt him very very badly.

he would be utterly destroyed against virtually all of the divisions power punchers.


:rofl

[yancey]

Idiot.



:good :hi:

[Mendoza]

In Ali's 1975 autobiography, "The Greatest: My Own Story" ghostwritten by Richard Durham, Frazier is quoted as claiming during a long drive he took Muhammad on during Ali's exile that he was the fastest closing heavyweight champion of all time coming forward. While I think Dempsey actually has that distinction, this claim for Smoke is not far off at all. (My favorite line in the book has Ali thinking while Foreman is struggling to beat the count that, "No referee could count ten over Joe Frazier as long as his body had blood in it," or words to that effect. After this book was published, Joe once again demonstrated the veracity of that statement in his rematch with Foreman.)

As I've discussed previously, I'm not sure that Smoke could have ever taken George in a first time matchup, although he demonstrated against Stander that he could perform extremely well against a powerful advance. (Just check out his excellent footwork at the end of round four on youtube! After watching his brilliant outmaneuvering of the bull Stander, it's easy to understand why he was expected by most to repel Foreman's challenge. In Smoke's final successful title defense, he showed he was perfectly capable of playing the matador's role.) But while a peak Joe might not have been able to take George in a first time bout, I have always believed Frazier would have defeated more of history's other greats than Foreman might, so that's why I rate Joe higher, despite the head to head outcomes.

Stander wasn't a great fighter, but he was game. I can’t see Stander as a top 10 fighter today. Stander had his share of moment’s vs Frazier. At one point he even buckled Frazier’s knees.

While Frazier had great closing speed ( He chewed up and spit out smaller boxer types ), I think he lack of elite level power, combined with a suspect chin to punchers would make it extremely difficult for him to defeat the bigger / stronger / more durable punchers.

However Frazier isn't gimped in a head to head sense. He was a boxer's worst nightmare, full of stamina and relentless pressure. Jimmy Young had the right stuff to foil Foreman. Billy Conn had the right stuff to bother Joe Louis. Neither Conn nor Young does well vs Frazier.