Riddick Bowe and Liston - a thought experiment

[ChrisPontius]

Inspired by Sonny's jab's words, imagine the following situation.

Riddick Bowe is born in 1934 and turns pro at 22, in 1956. Assume he matures into his 6'5" 235lbs frame just like he did in the 80's. He racks up wins against tomato cans but in '59 he steps up to face Mike DeJohn, Cleveland Williams and an old Valdez. In 1960, he has a rematch with Williams and bouts with the slippery Machen, the much lesser durable Foley and Harris. It is around this time he reaches his peak.

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In '62 he gets a shot at the title against Floyd Patterson. This would be the last time he'd ever be in great shape again and below 240lbs. He has a rematch the next year but comes in between 244 and 250lbs. He then fights a young kid called Clay in the same physical condition only to rematch him in '65, later than expected because he pulled out because of a back injury.

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After that, he fights a string of fringe contenders only to step up again in '69 against prospect Leotis Martin.




What kind of record does the 50's Bowe compile ? And where would you rank him in the top10 based on that?

[Jack]

I think he'd have an almost identical career.

The losses Liston suffered to Marty and Marshall are insignificant. I'd have Bowe beating them both, but if Liston hadn't fought them, I'd say he'd beat them as well. Let's ignore those two. If he wasn't in shape, a young Ali would beat him twice, although harder than the fights Ali had with Liston. As for the key wins, Patterson, Williams and co., Bowe would beat them all too. He wouldn't have such an easy time, but the result would a 'W' anyway.




Just to add something ese to this otherwise boring post, I don't think Liston would have gone 42-1 in Bowe's shoes. He would have lost to Holyfield perhaps all three times and I think Golota may have beaten Liston twice too.

[Russell]

He'd become a hot prospect at least, because I know he'd beat Cleveland Williams both times.

[Seamus]

He'd become a hot prospect at least, because I know he'd beat Cleveland Williams both times.

Wasn't that a rite of passage for over-rated fighters of the era?

Bowe destroys everyone in his path, making Liston a footnote.

[ChrisPontius]

It was assuming, of course, that Liston wasn't around during that time.

What if he fights Johansson right after Ingo knocked out Machen in one round in addition to the other fights?

[janitor]

The big unknowns is whether he would be ready to meet the fighters that Liston met in his early career.

Remember that this Bowe dose not have a long amateur career culminating in a silver medal win in the olympics. He is just thrown into the profesional ranks and matched hard early on. His oponents will not be selected with a view to him beating them.

Given these circumstances it is highly likley that he picks up a loss to sombody like Johny Summerlin early on.

Asuming that he is able to navigate these early obstacles (not a given)

Assuming also that he gets past Williams Folley and Machen (not a given)

He has a good chance of beating Patterson (not a given)

He might also manage it in again in the rematch (not a given)

Then he should be around to get beaten up by young Cassius Clay

[Mendoza]

Inspired by Sonny's jab's words, imagine the following situation.

Riddick Bowe is born in 1934 and turns pro at 22, in 1956. Assume he matures into his 6'5" 235lbs frame just like he did in the 80's. He racks up wins against tomato cans but in '59 he steps up to face Mike DeJohn, Cleveland Williams and an old Valdez. In 1960, he has a rematch with Williams and bouts with the slippery Machen, the much lesser durable Foley and Harris. It is around this time he reaches his peak.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]




In '62 he gets a shot at the title against Floyd Patterson. This would be the last time he'd ever be in great shape again and below 240lbs. He has a rematch the next year but comes in between 244 and 250lbs. He then fights a young kid called Clay in the same physical condition only to rematch him in '65, later than expected because he pulled out because of a back injury.

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

After that, he fights a string of fringe contenders only to step up again in '69 against prospect Leotis Martin.




What kind of record does the 50's Bowe compile ? And where would you rank him in the top10 based on that?

I think the same as Liston's, but Bowe did have a lot of heart. He would never lay down vs Ali.

[fists of fury]

The only stumbling block I can see is Clay/Ali. Cleveland Williams lost in all his big fights, DeHohn and Valdez were nothing special, Machen was competent but beatable, Foley might prove quite tough but Riddick's power and jab would be too much and Harris...not a threat at all, if you ask me.

Patterson would be annihilated by Bowe, maybe even as convincingly as Liston beat him. Certainly, it would only be a matter of when, not if, Patterson capitulates.

The Ali fights...well if Riddick is slightly out of shape it'll obviously be harder, but at 246 (As he weighed during the 2nd Holyfield fight) he was still very formidable, and went 12 fast-paced rounds.

Now some may laugh, but I give Riddick a good chance against the Ali/Clay of the Liston fights, because Ali/Clay had by no means matured yet as a fighter.
Even if Bowe loses he would have been a hell of a lot more competitive.
(PS-does Bowe get injured as Liston did?)

So he goes on this unbeaten run against a string of average fighters until he fights Leotis Martin...I don't know if you could call Martin a "prospect" - he was 30 years old and had already lost 4 fights before tackling Liston.
Martin also barely ever scaled over 200 lbs.
I don't see why Bowe (even at 34/35 years old) should have too much of a problem with him.

So, worst case scenario is he loses to Ali and maybe someone else on an off night.
Best case is (of course) that he wins AT LEAST one fight with Ali and beats the rest.

[abraq]

First of all, Bowe would not have matured into a 6'5'' 235 pounder had he been born in 1934.

Assuming (just assuming) he did, he would have a win-loss record similar to Liston. The round endings of the bouts would have been different, of course. For instance, Bowe wouldn't have knocked out Patterson in the first round. It would have taken him more time. The 1st Marty Marshall fight was an aberration in Liston's career. Barring some unforeseen incident, a loss on Bowe's record would not be there till Bowe met Ali.

Whether Bowe would have given Ali a more difficult time than Liston did (in the first fight) is debatable. But it does not matter. Bowe would ahve ended up with two losses.

However, there is one uncertainty. With his confidence dented by Ali, how Bowe would have performed against Leotis Martin. Martin could punch. Based on Bowe's performance against Golota, a win for Bowe is not a given. What do you people think?

[abraq]

The losses Liston suffered to Marty and Marshall are insignificant. I'd have Bowe beating them both, but if Liston hadn't fought them, I'd say he'd beat them as well. Let's ignore those two.

Isn't Marty and Marshall one person, Marty Marshall.

[ChrisPontius]

The big unknowns is whether he would be ready to meet the fighters that Liston met in his early career.

Remember that this Bowe dose not have a long amateur career culminating in a silver medal win in the olympics. He is just thrown into the profesional ranks and matched hard early on. His oponents will not be selected with a view to him beating them.

Given these circumstances it is highly likley that he picks up a loss to sombody like Johny Summerlin early on.

Asuming that he is able to navigate these early obstacles (not a given)

Assuming also that he gets past Williams Folley and Machen (not a given)

He has a good chance of beating Patterson (not a given)

He might also manage it in again in the rematch (not a given)

Then he should be around to get beaten up by young Cassius Clay
Sorry if it was not clear from the initial post, but when Bowe turns pro in '56, he has exactly the same experience as he did in '89. So how do you see it going? How much of a chance do you give Machen, Harris, Foley and Patterson with a prime Bowe?


(PS-does Bowe get injured as Liston did?)

No. Though it's questionable if he had a shoulder injury in the first place, but that is beyond the scope of this topic.


It's interesting how he'd fare against Ali. As he showed against Holyfield, despite being out of shape, he could still throw a ton of punches..... for 12 rounds that is. For whatever reason, his stamina has always been very good. It's damn near impossible for him to give Ali an easier fight than Liston did. In the first fight that is. If he's forced to take a dive, who knows what happens.

[janitor]

In '62 he gets a shot at the title against Floyd Patterson. This would be the last time he'd ever be in great shape again and below 240lbs.


This is another part of your premise that has to be questioned.

Bowe basicaly stayed on the straight and narrow for 3 years untill he won the title from Hollyfield.

Can we asume that he stays on the straight and narrow for 9 years like Liston did untill he won the title from Patterson?

Or even 6 years as in the scenario you project?

There are just so many variables that make Bowes prime run non transferable to Listons era.

[janitor]

[quote=ChrisPontius]Sorry if it was not clear from the initial post, but when Bowe turns pro in '56, he has exactly the same experience as he did in '89.

But in practice it almost certainly wouldnt happen like that.

Much of his amateur career would have taken place in the profesional arena.


So how do you see it going? How much of a chance do you give Machen, Harris, Foley and Patterson with a prime Bowe?


I think they could all give him problems.

Cleavland Williams is exactly the kind of fighter that Bowe either didnt fight or fared badly against. Folley and Machen would both have a chance of outpointing Bowe like Evander Holyfield did.

I cant give him a win over any of these guys without throwing a punch.

Floyd Patterson he would probably beat verry convincingly.

[mr. magoo]

A prime motivated Bowe, beats everyone in that era except Ali. Patterson was too small, Ingo didn't have what it takes, and Machen, Folley, Williams, weren't in his league. Bowe has too much of eveything, size, strength, power, boxing ability, chin,.

[janitor]

Always remember with any question like this, that it is a lot easier to beat sombody elses competition in theory than to actualy step into the ring and do it.

Yo can theoreticaly imagine Bowe besting any of Joe Louis's or Larry Holmses title oponents but when it comes to getting into shape and delivering 20+ times it is going to be a diferent matter.

[mr. magoo]

Always remember with any question like this, that it is a lot easier to beat sombody elses competition in theory than to actualy step into the ring and do it.

Yo can theoreticaly imagine Bowe besting any of Joe Louis's or Larry Holmses title oponents but when it comes to getting into shape and delivering 20+ times it is going to be a diferent matter.

What tools and attributes do you see men like Patterson, Johanson, Machen, Folley, or Williams having that would prove useful and ultimately lead to a win over Riddick Bowe?

[JohnThomas1]

I think the same as Liston's, but Bowe did have a lot of heart. He would never lay down vs Ali.

He may have if he had the blowtorch hanging over his family!

:hey

[JohnThomas1]

Bowe would starch Patterson both times faster than Liston did...

Suuuuure he would.

[fists of fury]

Suuuuure he would.

It's not impossible. Patterson would be dwarfed by Bowe.

[janitor]

What tools and attributes do you see men like Patterson, Johanson, Machen, Folley, or Williams having that would prove useful and ultimately lead to a win over Riddick Bowe?

I think that williams and Johansens power combined with Bowes defence could lead to him shiping sone serious punishment and possibly getting taken out. Remember Herbie Hide had him out on his feet.

I also think that Bowe could be outboxed by a smaller but more technical fighter. This is basicaly how Hollyfield won the second fight. I dont think that it is outside the realm of possibility that Folley or Machen could do likewise.

[JohnThomas1]

It's not impossible. Patterson would be dwarfed by Bowe.

Would you call it probable tho? We are talking about beating 2 minute ko's in two fights back to back.

That's one damn BIG statement.

A searing pressure type fighter who starts fast like Tyson yeah, a decent chance right there, but Bowe?

Noway IMO.

[fists of fury]

I dont think that it is outside the realm of possibility that Folley or Machen could do likewise.

Nothing is beyond the realms of possibility here. I'd make Bowe a clear favorite against both though.

[ChrisPontius]

This is another part of your premise that has to be questioned.

Bowe basicaly stayed on the straight and narrow for 3 years untill he won the title from Hollyfield.

Can we asume that he stays on the straight and narrow for 9 years like Liston did untill he won the title from Patterson?

Or even 6 years as in the scenario you project?

There are just so many variables that make Bowes prime run non transferable to Listons era.

Hold on a second. First you say that Liston had a 9 year period of being on top of his game. That would be from 54 to 63. But then you said Liston had most of his amature career as a professional. So if you count that way, then you must be fair and also include Bowe's amature career in his period of being on top of his game.

But you are right, it is unlikely Bowe would remain in top shape all the way from 56 to 62. From '58 to '62 is a realistic scenario however.

Also, let's not forget that once he had won that title, he was no longer a hungry fighter (in a literal sense anyway:yep). It's not out of the question that if he has two wait two years longer to finally get that title shot, he stays in shape for two more years. Also, he was still a formidable foe around 240lbs, just ask Donald, Hide or Holyfield.




But in practice it almost certainly wouldnt happen like that.

Much of his amateur career would have taken place in the profesional arena.


Why, because it went that way with Liston? I hypothized him having the same opposition, not the same life. Ali, Louis, Robinson etc all had extended amature careers before going pro. I don't see why Bowe couldn't have.



I think they could all give him problems.

Cleavland Williams is exactly the kind of fighter that Bowe either didnt fight or fared badly against. Folley and Machen would both have a chance of outpointing Bowe like Evander Holyfield did.

I cant give him a win over any of these guys without throwing a punch.

Floyd Patterson he would probably beat verry convincingly.



I don't see Foley outpointing Bowe like Holyfield did. He had a glass jaw. Holyfield's iron chin is what kept him in the fight (dito with the Lewis & Tyson fights).

[mr. magoo]

I think that williams and Johansens power combined with Bowes defence could lead to him shiping sone serious punishment and possibly getting taken out. Remember Herbie Hide had him out on his feet.

I also think that Bowe could be outboxed by a smaller but more technical fighter. This is basicaly how Hollyfield won the second fight. I dont think that it is outside the realm of possibility that Folley or Machen could do likewise.

Fair enough, but I think Bowe's power was tested against men who generally had better chins ( not Herbie Hide of course ) plus the average man he fought was probably a bit bigger, and stronger than most of the men on that era. Johanson had power, but Patterson and Machen are probably not the best examples of durable opponents to draw an accurate comparison. Bowe had defensive problems, but he was never taken out in 44 pro fights, and the only men who had him seriously hurt were pretty big punchers who also could box. Hide was never great, but he was a fast starter who could move with tremendous punching ability and was in phenomenal condition. Golata was a very dangerous fight who was undefeated in 28 fights and facing a declining Bowe. Patterson's aggressive style might have made him easy pickings for Riddick. I think Ali would have beaten Bowe, and maybe Liston would have as well, but I don't see anyone outside of those two beating him at his absolute peak in the 60's.

[JohnThomas1]

A 235 pound super heavyweight with great power against a mini cruiserweight who probably weighed 190 pounds soaking wet. .

Great power my arse. Excellent at best.

Unless Patterson gets on the bicycle, I can't see how he lasts longer than he did against Liston.


Bowe can be lazy, and won't be sitting as close as Liston was in the first two mins.


I bet Bowe probably has more knockouts under 3 rounds than Liston does.

What has 3 rounds got to do with things? These KO's were with'in 2 mins 10 secs - a long way short of 3 rounds. What ko's does Bowe have firstly vs world class oppostion within 2 mins 120 secs and secondly against world champs in 2 mins 10 or less?

Just can't see it mate, certainly not twice.

[mr. magoo]

I don't see Riddick Bowe dispatching Floyd Patterson any more hastily than Liston did, in fact I think a first round KO is probably not even going to happen. Riddick would probably keep Floyd on the end of his jab, and drop him a few times early enroute to a 3rd or 4th round stoppage, but two back to back first round knockouts? probably not.

[janitor]

Nothing is beyond the realms of possibility here. I'd make Bowe a clear favorite against both though.

The thing about fighters that you are a clear favourite over is that if you fight enough of them one of them will beat you.

Your luck cant hold out forever.

[janitor]

Fair enough, but I think Bowe's power was tested against men who generally had better chins ( not Herbie Hide of course ) plus the average man he fought was probably a bit bigger, and stronger than most of the men on that era. Johanson had power, but Patterson and Machen are probably not the best examples of durable opponents to draw an accurate comparison. Bowe had defensive problems, but he was never taken out in 44 pro fights, and the only men who had him seriously hurt were pretty big punchers who also could box. Hide was never great, but he was a fast starter who could move with tremendous punching ability and was in phenomenal condition. Golata was a very dangerous fight who was undefeated in 28 fights and facing a declining Bowe. Patterson's aggressive style might have made him easy pickings for Riddick. I think Ali would have beaten Bowe, and maybe Liston would have as well, but I don't see anyone outside of those two beating him at his absolute peak in the 60's.

The truth is that Bowe left a few unanswered questions.

He did not fight as many of the top fighters of the era as he might have done. He did not fight many punchers or larger heavyweights.

I somtimes think that Bowe might be the Ken Norton of the 1990s. A fighter with the ideal tools to be an all time great of his era but not the other two.

What would we have seen if Bowe had fought Tyson or Lewis?

[mr. magoo]

=janitor]The truth is that Bowe left a few unanswered questions.


Agreed.

He did not fight as many of the top fighters of the era as he might have done. He did not fight many punchers or larger heavyweights

True to an extent. However, Two wins over Holyfield, plus taking fights with some of the divisions young undefeated prospects and contenders like, Hide, Donald, Golata, Gonzalez, Seldon, and Coetzer ( some of whom large men, and big punchers), was better than what some of the other top men were doing. He also likely fought as many or near as many rated fightrs as Liston did.

I somtimes think that Bowe might be the Ken Norton of the 1990s.

Disagree. Norton was great, but he was Ko'd multiple times against big punchers, whereas Riddick was never stopped, and only beaten once. Norton's biggest victories were arguably less decisive than that of Bowes. Riddick earned the right to be lineal champion whereas, Norton was a mere titlist who was merely awarded a belt in the abscence of a challenge.


A fighter with the ideal tools to be an all time great of his era but not the other two.

Yes, he did not fulfill his potential.

What would we have seen if Bowe had fought Tyson or Lewis?

Obviously we'll never know. But, a returning Tyson in 1995/96 would probably have been an underdog against Bowe around that time. Lewis might have beaten him, but we can't be too sure. If they had fought in 1993, like they were supposed to, we would have seen an unpolished version of Lewis taking on the very best rendition of Bowe. Lewis certainly looked impressive against Ruddock, but some of his performances in the very near future against McCall, Bruno and Mercer tells me that a Bowe fight could have been a tough test.

[janitor]

True to an extent. However, Two wins over Holyfield, plus taking fights with some of the divisions young undefeated prospects and contenders like, Hide, Donald, Golata, Gonzalez, Seldon, and Coetzer ( some of whom large men, and big punchers), was better than what some of the other top men were doing. He also likely fought as many or near as many rated fightrs as Liston did.


Would you pick Wladamir Klitschko over Ridick Bowe or rank him higher historicaly?

If not what will he have to do to get there?

[abraq]

Bowe would starch Patterson both times faster than Liston did...


I can assure you that this will most certainly not happen. First of all, Bowe will not be able to psyche out Floyd the way Sonny did. Which means that Floyd would have fought the bout with movement and speed (on his bicycle, if you will put it that way). Secondly, Bowe always liked to jab for a while and set up his man.

Keeping these two things in mind, I just don't see how Bowe is going to end it near the first minute mark even once, let alone twice.

[mr. magoo]

Would you pick Wladamir Klitschko over Ridick Bowe or rank him higher historicaly?

If not what will he have to do to get there?

I would not pick him to beat Riddick Bowe head to head, and probably wouldn't rate him higher from a legacy perspective either. Its going to be difficult for Wlad to top Bowe in my opinion. Riddick has only one close decision loss to another all time great whom he beat twice. Wlad has been knocked out three times by second or third raters, and has only avenged one loss. Most of his best wins are over has been's or never were's. He has not unified, whereas Bowe had undesuted claim to the unified lineal title. Of course, his reign was very brief, and he only had to beat one man to acheive it as opposed to multiple, but still.

Wlad would have to go unbeaten for several years, beat all the other title holders, and hopfully get tested by some upcoming talent ( if there is any ). The biggest problem, is that there isn't much to test oneself against these days, and I don't see much coming soon. He's also 32 years old, and didn't look paricularly impressive in his last fight. His next opponent I'm told is the 35 year old Tony Thompson who is average at best. He doesn't seem to be on a search and destroy mission, and that's what it would take for him to surpass any of the top flight fighters of the last 25 years.

[godking]

The only stumbling block I can see is Clay/Ali. Cleveland Williams lost in all his big fights, DeHohn and Valdez were nothing special, Machen was competent but beatable, Foley might prove quite tough but Riddick's power and jab would be too much and Harris...not a threat at all, if you ask me.

Patterson would be annihilated by Bowe, maybe even as convincingly as Liston beat him. Certainly, it would only be a matter of when, not if, Patterson capitulates.

The Ali fights...well if Riddick is slightly out of shape it'll obviously be harder, but at 246 (As he weighed during the 2nd Holyfield fight) he was still very formidable, and went 12 fast-paced rounds.

Now some may laugh, but I give Riddick a good chance against the Ali/Clay of the Liston fights, because Ali/Clay had by no means matured yet as a fighter.
Even if Bowe loses he would have been a hell of a lot more competitive.
(PS-does Bowe get injured as Liston did?)

So he goes on this unbeaten run against a string of average fighters until he fights Leotis Martin...I don't know if you could call Martin a "prospect" - he was 30 years old and had already lost 4 fights before tackling Liston.
Martin also barely ever scaled over 200 lbs.
I don't see why Bowe (even at 34/35 years old) should have too much of a problem with him.

So, worst case scenario is he loses to Ali and maybe someone else on an off night.
Best case is (of course) that he wins AT LEAST one fight with Ali and beats the rest.Ali DESTROYS Bowe EVERYBODY who threw a jab at Bowe outjabbed him. Bowe lack of defense and inability to handle a jab would make this a nightmare for him.

[crippet]

Would you pick Wladamir Klitschko over Ridick Bowe or rank him higher historicaly?

If not what will he have to do to get there?


Become American?

[Russell]

Honestly, even if Klitschko cleaned up the division now, I still don't know if I could rank him over Bowe.

Those 3 knockout losses against journeymen fighters while in his prime years are just too much to overcome.

Lamon and Sanders were contenders, not journeymen.

[JohnThomas1]

I'll admit that I was too bold in stating that Bowe would knock out Patterson in under 2 minutes as if it were a certainty. But it does have a great chance of happening in my opinion and there's no question that Patterson doesn't see the 4th round.

Fair enough mate. I just think that in 2 fights odds are Floyd is going to get past 2 mins and more.

[Seamus]

Suuuuure he would.
Put a little mustard and catsup on Floyd and Bowe might eat him.