Getting off the floor to win....lets get the perspective

[ironchamp]

More and more I see people giving credit to a fighter who gets off the floor to win a fight without necessarily examining the circumstances.

While it may seem like an honerable trait, lets put this into perspective so proper credit is given.

If Fighter A is fighting fighter B and is winning the fight handidly and fighter B being a puncher lands a haymaker that drops fighter A, if fighter A gets up and regroups and continues to dictate the pace of the fight and wins, why should he gets extra points just because he came off the floor. Shouldnt that be viewed as a negative, that he was dropped? The idea is to hit and not get hit, if fighter A was able to do the job without getting dropped shouldnt that count for more?


Now if Fighter C is getting the bejabbers (as Burt Sugar would say) beaten out of him for a few rounds and gets dropped and is seemingly on his way to a KO loss but turns the tide and wins the fight whether it is via decision or KO shouldnt he get more credit because he overcame a deficit? And when I say deficit I mean turning the tide from a fight in which a fighter is losing and pulling off the win. Not necessarily a fight in which you are winning and you get dropped and you resume to win.

Fights in which I dont give credit for getting off the floor to win:

Ali Cooper, Ali was was beating him got cute, got caught and was subsequently dropped. He got his act together the next round. But the point is he didnt need to f@ck around. Get the job done, next opponent.

Holmes Shavers II, He showed his resiliance but he shouldnt have gotten caught. The win would have been better for Larry if he didnt hit the deck.

there's a couple more of these which some of you can add, I'm feeling lazy right now.

Fights where getting off the floor mattered:

Marciano Walcott I, getting dropped in the first round and outboxed for most of the fight only to turn this thing around proves to me that he overcame the deficit of the momentum and the knockdown.

Brewster Klitschko I, Lamon took such a beating in those 4 rounds that watching that fight I felt sorry for him because he seemed like such a nice guy. He gets dropped and he turns around and Stops Klitschko. That deserves credit.

Thoughts?

[SteveO]

Pavlik getting off the floor after nearly being KO'ed to KO Taylor and being behind on the cards was, to me, much more of a feat than Buster getting off the floor to KO Tyson after beating his ass for most of the the fight.

[ironchamp]

Pavlik getting off the floor after nearly being KO'ed to KO Taylor and being behind on the cards was, to me, much more of a feat than Buster getting off the floor to KO Tyson after beating his ass for most of the the fight.


My point exactly.....

[Russell]

Good point, ironchamp.

It's a perspective thing, really.

It's easy to give someone you like too much credit for getting off the mat.

[fists of fury]

I pretty much agree with Ironchamp's post. I suppose it does depend on how bad the knockdown is. For example, Shavers really had Holmes on queer street. If he didn't lose his composure, he probably would have knocked Larry out. Nontheless, Larry showed a lot of resilience in coming back...but it was obvious he was a far better boxer than Shavers to start with, and once his head cleared normal service was resumed.

But you know, you can also switch things around a little here...for example, although Marciano was behind against Joe Walcott, he was always in the fight and had a puncher's chance. That one crucial split second when Walcott began to throw his right defined the whole outcome of the fight. One second, just ONE, where he was a little slow to get off cost him dearly.

So Holmes nearly lost his title by being carleess for one second, and Marciano won his title in a split instant where he landed the perfect punch.

All a matter of persective really.

[Mendoza]

ironchamp

Fights in which I dont give credit for getting off the floor to win:

Ali Cooper, Ali was was beating him got cute, got caught and was subsequently dropped. He got his act together the next round. But the point is he didnt need to f@ck around. Get the job done, next opponent.

Holmes Shavers II, He showed his resiliance but he shouldnt have gotten caught. The win would have been better for Larry if he didnt hit the deck.

there's a couple more of these which some of you can add, I'm feeling lazy right now.

Iron,

I have to disagree on the Holmes vs Shavers fight. Shavers landed a huge right hand! Holmes proved he could take it, recover quickly, and then pull a Muhammad Ali for the rest of the fight. If Holmes never was caught in this fight, he does not get to prove his durability and recuperative powers, which in my estimation were among the best among heavyweights.

[JohnThomas1]

Most every fighter gets in trouble at some point in their career, and showing one can come off the floor to win should be held in decent esteem. It's not the be all and end all but it is indeed noteworthy.

[Lobotomy]

Concerning Larry Holmes, it was not surprising that Shavers could drop him with such a right hand. Holmes conditioned himself into preparedness for such a possibility, forewarned by Earnie's torpedoing of Norton.

However, I give Larry monster credit for recovering against Renaldo Snipes. Eddie Mustafa Muhammad did not take a backwards step in their fight, and looked to be much the harder puncher when Mr. Snipes outboxed him from the ring perimeter. Renaldo showed absolutely nothing in his previous televised appearances to indicate he was capable of a punch like the cross which knocked Holmes silly. Leading up to it, Snipes had followed the same powerless pattern he'd displayed before.

When Lennox was unexpectedly bushwacked like that, he lost his title. As lightly regarded as Snipes was, Larry similarly had no business recovering from such a stunning development. Yet, he got up quickly and collected himself against a challenger whose defensive glovework resembled that of somebody waving smoke away from his face. (This wasn't Aaron Pryor, who always had his right cocked with the hammer pulled back, ready to fire.)

Of course it's best to be able to emulate Hagler, Loi, Graham and Chuvalo, never needing to get off the floor in the first place.

I think this emphasis on being able to get off the floor to win can be traced to two prominent names in contemporary boxing-Tyson and Lewis. One got beaten down, or just gave up. The other got bushwhacked twice with a single shot. This doesn't normally happen to ATGs in prime career.

Sometimes, getting up to win can even take a backseat to just getting up to finish (FOTC), or even rising within the count (Frazier against Foreman, Uzcudun against Louis, Cuevas against Hearns, Patterson against Ingo), or even making it upright without assistance while trying to beat the count (Patterson with Liston). It's a matter of toughness, or conditioning, or heart. Just the willingness to come up to face a withering assault impresses me. (Granted, they sometimes don't know what they're doing, but even then the reflexive response in such a given situation is revealing, in much the same way that personality lingers on after Alzheimer's steals eveything else.)

[Sonny's jab]

Getting up off the canvas to win is better than staying on the canvas and losing.

8)

That's about my only thought on the matter.

[Sonny's jab]

I have another one - if a fighter gets knocked down it's a matter of honour to knock the opponent down, or knock him out, or beat the shit out of him. Running like a thief, grabbing and throwing pitty-pat punches to take the decision always leaves a unsavoury taste in the mouth. Just my opinion.

[mr. magoo]

Some folks gave Razor Ruddock credit for rising off the floor to beat Boncrusher Smith, saying that it was a tremendous display of heart and resiliance, but I tend to disagree.

Smith was a shot fighter by that point. He was 36 years old when he fought Ruddock in 1989, and hadn't scored a single win since 1986. He was about 20 Lbs over his best weight and thoroughly out of shape. For a man like Ruddock to be in his prime and marketed as a top flight contender, he should have defeated THIS version of Smith without hitting the deck.

Another fight where I did not see much merit in crediting a fighter for rising off the canvas to victory was Morrison vs Williams. The truth was reduced to journeyman status by that point, whereas a 25 year old Morrison was still considered as a potential challenger for the title. Williams sent him down for the count twice in round 5 before being pounded to submission around the 8th. This fight was far more of a discredit to Morrison's repuation than it was anything good.

[mr. magoo]

I have another one - if a fighter gets knocked down it's a matter of honour to knock the opponent down, or knock him out, or beat the shit out of him. Running like a thief, grabbing and throwing pitty-pat punches to take the decision always leaves a unsavoury taste in the mouth. Just my opinion.

Yeah, I don't know if you ever saw Michael Carbajal vs Humberto Ganzalez for both the IBF/WBA light flyweight titles in 1993, but if you didn't I strongly suggest you watch it on youtube. Gonzalez had Carbajal on the deck TWICE, and he came back to knockout Gonzalez I believe in the 7th or thereabouts. One would never guess that you'd see such a slugfest between two guys who weighed 108 Lbs.

What a fight that was!!!! And it coincides perfectly with what you're talking about.

[AnthonyJ74]

I pretty much agree with Ironchamp's post. I suppose it does depend on how bad the knockdown is. For example, Shavers really had Holmes on queer street. If he didn't lose his composure, he probably would have knocked Larry out. Nontheless, Larry showed a lot of resilience in coming back...but it was obvious he was a far better boxer than Shavers to start with, and once his head cleared normal service was resumed.

But you know, you can also switch things around a little here...for example, although Marciano was behind against Joe Walcott, he was always in the fight and had a puncher's chance. That one crucial split second when Walcott began to throw his right defined the whole outcome of the fight. One second, just ONE, where he was a little slow to get off cost him dearly.

So Holmes nearly lost his title by being carleess for one second, and Marciano won his title in a split instant where he landed the perfect punch.

All a matter of persective really.

Was Holmes being careless at the time he was dropped against Shavers? I don't recall Holmes showboating or being cute in any way at the time Shavers dropped him. Maybe I need to watch that round again.

But I think more points should be given to a fighter who avoids getting dropped on the first place. I mean, sure, if a fighter gets dropped but gets up and rebounds that is certainly a courageous thing. But he still got dropped in the first place. Getting dropped is a negative. Getting up and fighting back is a positive, so maybe the two combined bring a fighter back to zero. But avoiding hitting the canvas in the first place should mean more.

[AnthonyJ74]

Some folks gave Razor Ruddock credit for rising off the floor to beat Boncrusher Smith, saying that it was a tremendous display of heart and resiliance, but I tend to disagree.

Smith was a shot fighter by that point. He was 36 years old when he fought Ruddock in 1989, and hadn't scored a single win since 1986. He was about 20 Lbs over his best weight and thoroughly out of shape. For a man like Ruddock to be in his prime and marketed as a top flight contender, he should have defeated THIS version of Smith without hitting the deck.

Another fight where I did not see much merit in crediting a fighter for rising off the canvas to victory was Morrison vs Williams. The truth was reduced to journeyman status by that point, whereas a 25 year old Morrison was still considered as a potential challenger for the title. Williams sent him down for the count twice in round 5 before being pounded to submission around the 8th. This fight was far more of a discredit to Morrison's repuation than it was anything good.

That shot that Bonecrusher Smith hit Ruddock with was a huge, huge shot though! I never actually watched that fight until a few months ago, and I was amazed how hard a punch that was. It was one of those punches that was totally unexpected and out of nowhere, and it landed right on the button. In all fairness to Ruddock, sometimes fighters get nailed no matter what; the best fighters can get nailed and hurt by a punch, even if the punch is thrown by a supposed lesser fighter with a lot of power.

As for Williams and Morrison, I was shocked to see Morrison get dropped like he did. Most people thought George Foreman would decapitate Morrison if Williams could drop him twice like he did(George just didn't have the hand speed to get his punch there as crisply). But I agree that the Carl Williams fight did more harm than good for Morrison's reputation. Williams was never a big puncher, and Morrison was hurt by a relatively light hitter twice in the same round.

[mr. magoo]

That shot that Bonecrusher Smith hit Ruddock with was a huge, huge shot though! I never actually watched that fight until a few months ago, and I was amazed how hard a punch that was. It was one of those punches that was totally unexpected and out of nowhere, and it landed right on the button. In all fairness to Ruddock, sometimes fighters get nailed no matter what; the best fighters can get nailed and hurt by a punch, even if the punch is thrown by a supposed lesser fighter with a lot of power.

As for Williams and Morrison, I was shocked to see Morrison get dropped like he did. Most people thought George Foreman would decapitate Morrison if Williams could drop him twice like he did(George just didn't have the hand speed to get his punch there as crisply). But I agree that the Carl Williams fight did more harm than good for Morrison's reputation. Williams was never a big puncher, and Morrison was hurt by a relatively light hitter twice in the same round.

True,

If Ali could get dropped by H. Cooper and Holyfield decked by B. Cooper, then I suppose anything can happen, even when a declining, yet still powerful opponent comes to fight. Thank goodness Ruddock never fought anyone with the last name of Cooper. :lol:

[booradley]

What about Danny Lopez? Coming off the canvass to win BIG was just another day at the office for "Little Red." Thoughts?

Boo

[SgrRyLeonard]

Archie Moore-Yvonne Durelle I was one of the best examples of a fighter getting off the floor to win. Durelle almost had Moore out of there in the 4th round, and again almost had him in the 4th or 5th round. But Moore survived, recovered, and was able to turn the tide of the fight in the middle rounds, slowly breaking Durelle down over the next few rounds and finishing him in the 11th. One of the greatest comeback wins in boxing.

[ironchamp]

Iron,

I have to disagree on the Holmes vs Shavers fight. Shavers landed a huge right hand! Holmes proved he could take it, recover quickly, and then pull a Muhammad Ali for the rest of the fight. If Holmes never was caught in this fight, he does not get to prove his durability and recuperative powers, which in my estimation were among the best among heavyweights.

Ruddock landed some pretty big shots against Tyson but Tyson took them without going down and fought back pretty well. Had Tyson hit the canvas only to come back and win would that have mattered more?

I think there is a greater psychological advantage when you take an unbelievable shot and you are still standing.

[ironchamp]

But I think more points should be given to a fighter who avoids getting dropped on the first place. I mean, sure, if a fighter gets dropped but gets up and rebounds that is certainly a courageous thing. But he still got dropped in the first place. Getting dropped is a negative. Getting up and fighting back is a positive, so maybe the two combined bring a fighter back to zero. But avoiding hitting the canvas in the first place should mean more.

Thats exactly how I've always felt.

[prime]

But I think more points should be given to a fighter who avoids getting dropped on the first place. I mean, sure, if a fighter gets dropped but gets up and rebounds that is certainly a courageous thing. But he still got dropped in the first place. Getting dropped is a negative. Getting up and fighting back is a positive, so maybe the two combined bring a fighter back to zero. But avoiding hitting the canvas in the first place should mean more.

Nice sum-up.

[radianttwilight]

It's a nice plus...but alot of the champions that made a living rising off the canvas were just easy guys to knock down.

There's a difference between catching an asswhipping, going down, and getting back up and just going hitting the canvas left and right. The latter is an instance where it's better to not go down in the first place!

[Lobotomy]

Was Holmes being careless at the time he was dropped against Shavers? I don't recall Holmes showboating or being cute in any way at the time Shavers dropped him. Maybe I need to watch that round again.Now that my computer is letting me post again, I can reply that Larry had indeed gotten careless at the time Earnie dropped him.

Holmes had momentary lapses of concentration in his first bout with Shavers, simply by virtue of being human. But in winning 34 out of 36 minutes, those few lapses were far more apparent than what is normally obvious with most competitors. (Years later, when Larry faced Tyson, Mike Spinks famously saw his focus collapse from ringside several seconds before the first knockdown, and yelled at Holmes, "What are you doing? Concentrate!")

Larry was obviously mindful of the tremendous confidence Shavers was bringing to their rematch off his destruction of Norton, a measure of self-assurance Earnie was somewhat lacking in during their first meeting, and prepared accordingly, training himself down to 209. But after six rounds of the rematch, Holmes/Shavers II had become a replay of Holmes/Shavers I. The deduction I made was that Larry got cocky, completely forgetting about what Earnie did to Norton. The first right hand bomb Shavers resultantly caught him in round seven was with Holmes leaning back against the ropes. Larry, facing the camera, did not buckle from it, but Cosell made note of it connecting, and Holmes must have been somewhat buzzed from it. They were on the opposite side of the ring when Larry fall and go BOOM!

If Holmes had not been in what was possibly the best physical condition of his career, his carelessness in opening himself up to be hit by Earnie would have resulted in the crowning of perhaps the most one-dimensional HW champion in history. (At least the youthful Foreman had a jab. Aside from the first bout Shavers had with Henry Clark, when he closed Clark's eye with it in winning a decision, the jab was never a significant tool in his arsenal, a rather foolish developmental oversight, considering Earnie's long arms and 80 inch reach. Frank Luca had a close, fraternal relationship with Shavers, but I have doubts about his qualities as a trainer.) Fortunately for Larry, he did not lose his title in the ring that night, because he won it with his dedicated and focused training beforehand. His seventh round underestimation of Shavers was overcome by his training camp overestimation of Earnie following the Norton blow-out. Sporting events are won and lost on such preparation.