Joe Frazier vs. the fighters from the 70's he never fought.

[SteveO]

How would he have faired against:

Larry Holmes
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Earnie Shavers

and any others?

[abraq]

Larry Holmes - A very, very close fight. I think Frazier would get the decision. But, post fight, he would be a sight.

Ken Norton - Would be interesting till Joe got in that left hook of his. Norton would flounder after this and either get stopped or lose a convincing decision.

Ron Lyle - Physically much stronger than Frazier. Tended to fight like the other guy fought. Box with boxers, punch with punchers. Would try to box Frazier till Joe got warmed up around the third round and started coming at Ron in real earnest, left hook and all. A shaken Lyle then would have turned puncher and knocked down Joe. What would happen after that? Depends. If Ron can keep up the momentum he would knock out/stop Frazier somewhere in the middle rounds. If not, Frazier would win a close dcision.

Earnie Shavers - Shavers was a real fast starter and at his deadliest in the early rounds. Frazier was the opposite and most vulnerable in the first two rounds. The key for Joe would be in avoiding Shavers' punches in the early rounds. I think in two fights out of three Frazier manages to survive and stops a gassed Shavers anywhere between the 6th to the 9th round. In the other fight it is an early exit for Joe Frazier, similar to what happened against Foreman.

Styles makes fights. Punchers would have a better chance against Frazier.

Amongst the four, I consider Larry Holmes to be the best.

[Bummy Davis]

I like a prime Frazier in all of these matchups.....Shavers would not be able to keep the pace vs Joe and he would be more concerned with not getting hit than hitting, Frazier more stamina, better chin and better class

Norton was a sparring partner for Joe and Joe dominated him, Frzier too much pressure and power for a KO b4 5

If you saw the Quarry fight you could see how Frazier would dominate and possibly stop Lyle

Holmes would be a fast paced busier fight than the rest because of good stamina and workrate by both men but if you saw the Ali 1 fight, you can see how Frazier would let you run and not hide....I like Frazier by a stoppage late in the fight, or dominant win in a fight full of exchanges. Holmes does not have enough power to hold off Smoking Joe and the speed of Fraziers hook suprises Larry

[Lobotomy]

Frazier would be a hideous stylistic matchup for Norton. Ken's crossarmed defense would leave his liver wide open to Joe's hook, while Norton's overhand rights would go sailing over Frazier's ducking head. If I was in Joe's corner, I'd tell him to throw his right every time Kenny jabbed. That would have the effect of blocking Norton's left coming up. Everything else would naturally flow from Joe's neutralization of that jab. Getting under Ken would force him back, something Norton didn't like very much.

I wouldn't want to be in Norton's corner for this one, an opinion Ken may well have shared about his good friend.

Joe had too much endurance for Lyle.

Shavers could put him down, but keeping him there was another matter. Earnie might benefit greatly from the three knockdown rule. If it went past three rounds, Shavers would be in big trouble.

Holmes was smarter than Ali, and the hook wasn't a punch he was particularly susceptible to. Joe would need to be aware of Larry's uppercut as well. Holmes would carry this one with his jab, neutralizng Frazier's hook in the process.

[mr. magoo]

Frazier would be a hideous stylistic matchup for Norton. Ken's crossarmed defense would leave his liver wide open to Joe's hook, while Norton's overhand rights would go sailing over Frazier's ducking head. If I was in Joe's corner, I'd tell him to throw his right every time Kenny jabbed. That would have the effect of blocking Norton's left coming up. Everything else would naturally flow from Joe's neutralization of that jab. Getting under Ken would force him back, something Norton didn't like very much.

I wouldn't want to be in Norton's corner for this one, an opinion Ken may well have shared about his good friend.

Joe had too much endurance for Lyle.

Shavers could put him down, but keeping him there was another matter. Earnie might benefit greatly from the three knockdown rule. If it went past three rounds, Shavers would be in big trouble.

Holmes was smarter than Ali, and the hook wasn't a punch he was particularly susceptible to. Joe would need to be aware of Larry's uppercut as well. Holmes would carry this one with his jab, neutralizng Frazier's hook in the process.

Good analysis.

I pretty much agree with all of it. Shavers didn't have the chin that Foreman had, nor the power in BOTH hands, or the ability to lift Joe off the canvas. The Frazier who fought Foreman wasn't at his peak anyway. Joe might get dropped once or twice like you say, but he beats Shavers before the fight reaches the 5th. In fact, he might even have a shot at doing to Shavers what Quarry did. Lyle gives him trouble, but Joe wares him down. Norton sparred with Frazier regularly, and from what I've read, Joe usually got the better of it ( of course sparring isn't everything but still ).

Holmes takes a close decision.

[C. M. Clay II]

The only one I would make a favorite over Frazier would be Holmes. Everyone else I believe gets stopped except Lyle, who losses a decision.:good

[mcvey]

How would he have faired against:

Larry Holmes
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Earnie Shavers

and any others?
Holmes outboxes Joe ,he was susceptible to rights over a low left ,not left hooks,Frazier stops Shavers in 8 ,but hits the deck first,Frazier stops Norton in 8or 9 ,and decisions Lyle ,but again may taste the canvas.

[Sardu]

I think it safe to assume we are referring to the Frazier of 1970-75. After the Thrilla in Manila - Frazier was pretty well past it. The imposter who fought Foreman in June of 1976 was not the same Frazier anymore. Also, in 1974, I remembered reading in his biography (Smokin' Joe) that Frazier was declared legally blind in one of his eyes and had cataract surgery. His career was in jeopardy at that point in time but he fought on. Anyway, the Frazier of pre-March 8, 1971 handily beats all of them except possibly Holmes. The Frazier of 1974 would probably knock out Shavers and Norton. He would beat Lyle possibly even stop him inside the distance and Holmes was still too young and inexperienced for Joe at that time. So I feel Frazier would edge Holmes by decision. By 1976, Holmes would have been ready to defeat Frazier though.

[OBCboxer]

Frazier KO1 Norton- Frazier swarms him early even though Frazier is usually slow starter.

Holmes wins by late stoppage due to the damage on Frazier's face.

Frazier TKO8 Shavers

Lyle knocks Joe down but not out as Joe battles back to get a late stoppage.

[Russell]

Frazier would be a hideous stylistic matchup for Norton. Ken's crossarmed defense would leave his liver wide open to Joe's hook, while Norton's overhand rights would go sailing over Frazier's ducking head.

Yeah, it definitely wouldn't be Norton vs. Bobick. :lol:

[round15]

I think it safe to assume we are referring to the Frazier of 1970-75. After the Thrilla in Manila - Frazier was pretty well past it. The imposter who fought Foreman in June of 1976 was not the same Frazier anymore. Also, in 1974, I remembered reading in his biography (Smokin' Joe) that Frazier was declared legally blind in one of his eyes and had cataract surgery. His career was in jeopardy at that point in time but he fought on. Anyway, the Frazier of pre-March 8, 1971 handily beats all of them except possibly Holmes. The Frazier of 1974 would probably knock out Shavers and Norton. He would beat Lyle possibly even stop him inside the distance and Holmes was still too young and inexperienced for Joe at that time. So I feel Frazier would edge Holmes by decision. By 1976, Holmes would have been ready to defeat Frazier though.

I agree with you. Frazier fought Foreman in 1976 with contact lenses, which some would say illustrated Joe's undying love for boxing, or his complete stupidity/bravery to try and avenge his worse loss. The dangers of wearing contact lenses in a contact fighting sport are self explanatory.

As for the fights, Joe Frazier circa 1966 - 1970 would KO all the above mentioned, in less than 10 rounds. Shavers, Norton, and Lyle wouldn't be able to handle Joe's pressure and body attack, but I wouldn't put it past Shavers or Lyle to have Joe on the canvas early. The only fighter that might be able to go the distance with this version of Frazier is Holmes, but he'd probably lose a unanimous decision.

Joe Frazier after the FOTC was damaged goods but still a very good heavyweight. Before being destroyed by Foreman in 1973, Eddie Futch apparently called off the sparring sessions with Norton because Joe was getting his butt whupped by him handily. According to Futch, Norton could never handle Frazier as easy as he did in those pre-Foreman sparring sessions, so Futch's concerns of Joe not being physically ready for the Foreman fight was evident.

Lyle and Shavers could probably drop the post FOTC Frazier but still wouldn't be able to keep him down. Frazier was markedly slower after the FOTC but still tough as nails. Norton would probably give Frazier everything he has, probably hurting him once or twice early in the fight, only to get knocked out late himself. Holmes probably wins a close decision againt this Frazier.

Post Manilla Frazier probably gets knocked out by Lyle and Shavers. Norton and Holmes most likely out-box this version of Frazier on route to unanimous decision victories. Joe literally had nothing left and George Foreman, still scared of Frazier used his jab and cautiously boxed Frazier for four rounds before knocking him out in five. IMO, Foreman probably could have knocked out this Frazier earlier than round 5, like Lennox Lewis could have knocked out a 240 lb depleted Tyson earlier than the six round when they fought.

[round15]

Good analysis.

I pretty much agree with all of it. Shavers didn't have the chin that Foreman had, nor the power in BOTH hands, or the ability to lift Joe off the canvas. The Frazier who fought Foreman wasn't at his peak anyway. Joe might get dropped once or twice like you say, but he beats Shavers before the fight reaches the 5th. In fact, he might even have a shot at doing to Shavers what Quarry did. Lyle gives him trouble, but Joe wares him down. Norton sparred with Frazier regularly, and from what I've read, Joe usually got the better of it ( of course sparring isn't everything but still ).

Holmes takes a close decision.

Shavers right hand was harder than Foremans but his left was not as good as Foremans.

[SteveO]

Wish Joe had fought these guys. Would've been some great fights.

[zadfrak]

I recall when Frazier was going to come out of retirement in 78 & fight Kallie Knoetze. I'm glad that bout never transpired & don't think Joe would've looked any better than when he fought Cummings a few years later. Hardly anyone had actually seen Knoetze at the time, but you knew the guy was supposed to be a big hitter in there. Later when everyone got a chance to see the guy you could see he was a real big puncher & I'm glad a favorite of mine like Frazier didn't come out of retirement to face this guy.

[MrSmall]

How would he fare vs Jimmy Young?
And Norton?

[OBCboxer]

How would he fare vs Jimmy Young?
And Norton?

In his prime he beats them both.

[AnthonyJ74]

How would he have faired against:

Larry Holmes
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Earnie Shavers

and any others?

I think Holmes would have had his hands full with Frazier. I used to think Holmes would just outbox and outpoint Frazier, but I'm not so sure. Frazier was awfully agressive and busy, and he'd be on Holmes' butt every minute. Holmes would definitely mark up Frazier's face and do damage with his left jab and uppercut, but I think Frazier could have taken Holmes' best punch. Holmes was the more skilled of the two, but I'm not sure how well Holmes would deal with Frazier's pressure. I have a feeling that, eventually, Holmes would wear down and wilt from Frazier's relentlessness. Holmes would be ahead on points by the halfway point in the fight, but from then on it's anybody's fight.

[JohnThomas1]

I think Holmes would have had his hands full with Frazier. I used to think Holmes would just outbox and outpoint Frazier, but I'm not so sure. Frazier was awfully agressive and busy, and he'd be on Holmes' butt every minute. Holmes would definitely mark up Frazier's face and do damage with his left jab and uppercut, but I think Frazier could have taken Holmes' best punch. Holmes was the more skilled of the two, but I'm not sure how well Holmes would deal with Frazier's pressure. I have a feeling that, eventually, Holmes would wear down and wilt from Frazier's relentlessness. Holmes would be ahead on points by the halfway point in the fight, but from then on it's anybody's fight.

Holmes and Frazier are life or death one way or the other. That's the one single thing i am sure of.

[SteveO]

I think Holmes would have had his hands full with Frazier. I used to think Holmes would just outbox and outpoint Frazier, but I'm not so sure. Frazier was awfully agressive and busy, and he'd be on Holmes' butt every minute. Holmes would definitely mark up Frazier's face and do damage with his left jab and uppercut, but I think Frazier could have taken Holmes' best punch. Holmes was the more skilled of the two, but I'm not sure how well Holmes would deal with Frazier's pressure. I have a feeling that, eventually, Holmes would wear down and wilt from Frazier's relentlessness. Holmes would be ahead on points by the halfway point in the fight, but from then on it's anybody's fight.

Good style matchup.

[janitor]

How would he have faired against:

Larry Holmes
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Earnie Shavers

and any others?

I think he would probably have beaten all of them.

The ones where I am uncertain would likley have fought him not at their best.

[Lobotomy]

How would he fare vs Jimmy Young?I think Frazier's bodypunching and aggressiveness would carry him over Young. Futch and Durham would tell Joe to forget that Jimmy even had a head, and just pound away with the hook downstairs. If Young managed to stay on his feet and go the distance, he could well lose the most lopsided decision of his prime. (A decision Jimmy himself might not dispute.)

[Lobotomy]

I think Holmes would have had his hands full with Frazier. I used to think Holmes would just outbox and outpoint Frazier, but I'm not so sure. Frazier was awfully aggressive and busy, and he'd be on Holmes' butt every minute. Holmes would definitely mark up Frazier's face and do damage with his left jab and uppercut, but I think Frazier could have taken Holmes' best punch. Holmes was the more skilled of the two, but I'm not sure how well Holmes would deal with Frazier's pressure. I have a feeling that, eventually, Holmes would wear down and wilt from Frazier's relentlessness. Holmes would be ahead on points by the halfway point in the fight, but from then on it's anybody's fight.Has anybody seriously suggested that Larry could ever have anything other than a hectic experience with Joe?

Holmes wasn't known for his hook, and certainly wouldn't even consider hooking with this particular hooker. Nor was Larry dumb enough to try the sort of rope-a-doping tactics which Ali helped Frazier exploit. Holmes was an intelligent enough ring general to keep this in center court.

I too think that Joe could have withstood the best shot Holmes could offer, but I also believe that Larry wouldn't offer Joe the chance to land his best hooks upstairs. Holmes had sometimes crude but very effective footwork, as he displayed against Shavers. Larry did not move like Ali. In the first Shavers fight, Holmes continually circled rapidly to his right, away from Earnie's cross, and boxed very smoothly from his counterclockwise motion, an extremely unusual ablility for an orthodox boxer at the world class level. Of course he would not be foolish enough to circle into Joe's hook continually, unless to smother it. More likely, he'd control the ring as he did with Cobb, stepping back and to the left while catching Joe coming in, then tying Frazier up in close. I expect that Larry would do a much better job outmaneuvering Joe than Ali did. Holmes may not have been as athletically talented, as Muhammad, but Larry's smarts would make up for it.

Holmes would fade late, but Joe would face a huge deficit as he began to turn the tide, and run out of time before he caught up in the scoring.

Aside from the FOTC, Smoke only went the 15 round distance once. His rematch with Ringo in Philly was an expected grueling affair, and a very interesting study for anybody researching Joe's career. At the end, Frazier was actually tiring a bit, and while Bonavena was pooped-out as well, he managed to be coming on a bit at the end, while giving ground behind an effective jab (not the first thing one usually considers when picturing Ringo in action).

With Ali totally exiled, and thought by many to be through with boxing, Joe's return to his home town as champion against his toughest foe, who previously came within a single knockdown of wiping Smoke out in two rounds, was the most daunting challenge he could have possibly faced at that stage of his career. Yet, as thoroughly prepared, motivated and inspired to produce the most impressive performance Joe knew he needed to be capable of at that time, Bonavena still managed to demonstrate that the pre FOTC Frazier was not absolutely invincible, and could be competed with effectively in a war of attrition. In 25 rounds of action, he dropped Smoke twice without suffering a knockdown in return. The entirety of Frazier/Bonavena II is worthy of careful study for anyone who wants to know more about prime Smoke's abilities and limitations. (As is Joe's complete substantial body of work pre FOTC.)

[MGUNZ48]

Frazier knocks out all but Holmes, who beats him in a very close D.
Norton could not fight backing up, Joe would wear him down and stop him. same for Lyle, who had a tendicy to tire late. Shavers? have you all forgot that an old Jerry Quarry knocked out Shavers in the first 1st? A bomb throwing contest for 1 rd. and unless Ernie gets very very lucky he gets ko'ed by Frazier.

Larry Holmes - A very, very close fight. I think Frazier would get the decision. But, post fight, he would be a sight.

Ken Norton - Would be interesting till Joe got in that left hook of his. Norton would flounder after this and either get stopped or lose a convincing decision.

Ron Lyle - Physically much stronger than Frazier. Tended to fight like the other guy fought. Box with boxers, punch with punchers. Would try to box Frazier till Joe got warmed up around the third round and started coming at Ron in real earnest, left hook and all. A shaken Lyle then would have turned puncher and knocked down Joe. What would happen after that? Depends. If Ron can keep up the momentum he would knock out/stop Frazier somewhere in the middle rounds. If not, Frazier would win a close dcision.

Earnie Shavers - Shavers was a real fast starter and at his deadliest in the early rounds. Frazier was the opposite and most vulnerable in the first two rounds. The key for Joe would be in avoiding Shavers' punches in the early rounds. I think in two fights out of three Frazier manages to survive and stops a gassed Shavers anywhere between the 6th to the 9th round. In the other fight it is an early exit for Joe Frazier, similar to what happened against Foreman.

Styles makes fights. Punchers would have a better chance against Frazier.

Amongst the four, I consider Larry Holmes to be the best.