Should Mickey Walker be considered the #1 head to head at 147?

[McGrain]

If he's not, why not? He must be close. Sugar Ray Robinson is the usual shout. I'm always banging on about Charley Burley & sometimes a drunk or Holmes' Jab will try to force Leonard on you, but nobody seems to mention Walker....

His chin must be considered granite at the weight. Guys like Schmeling and Smith KO'd him but they were massive by comparison - and Walker's HW resume is actually not to bad! Fram Cyberboxing Zone:

"Against men who weighed more than 20lbs more than him his record was 10-1-2"

He has wins over much bigger pure boxers including Maxie Rosenbloom at light heavy, battered heavyweight contender Uzcudan to defeat and fought that famous draw with Jack Sharkey - is he on your top 50 HW's list? Because i'm pretty sure he'd make mine. The guy was capable of hustling much bigger pure boxers to defeat (though he lost some of these fights too) and could also outfight giants with whom he really had no business in the first place.

So my question is - what type of Welterweight would it take to beat a peak Mikey Walker? The great puncher or the great boxer? Because he beat much bigger versions of both.

WOuldn't he beat more great welterweights than any other great welterweights?

Is it possible to see him failing to win at least one of three against any WW in history?

[McGrain]

I just watched the Walker-Schmeling highlights (an eliminator for a heavyweight title shot!) and Scmleing nailed Walker of course, but I'd submit that the right hand Max landed for the first KD would probably have stopped a lot of HW's.

What really astonishes is how well Walker does in the clinches. Was Max refusing to contest these clinches for some tactical purpose? Perhaps he regarded Walker as particularly good coming out of a clinch on the back foot? Or is Walker really that strong?

Damage is done in the clinches though...apart from this one and the Greb one, did Walker take any other serious beatings?

I love Mickey Walker.

The end of that fight - the crowd are apparently screaming for it to be stopped, Kearns is shouting at Walker to stay down, Walker is struggling to see, Schmeling is showing no mercy and Walker is still punching back.

[McGrain]

I'm a bit pissed at the moment but I feel quite strongly that Walker is the best fighter that ever lived.

Just to be clear, i'm not saying that he IS, just that I feel at this time that he is.

Certainly no punching WW would ever have been able to beat him in my view.

[joe33]

93 wins, 14 losses, 4 draws, 46 no decisions and 1 no contest in 163 professional bouts,60 knockout wins,that is fucking mad,guys back then seem so unreal,talk about hard as fucking nails

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[joe33]

V3Qi6ue-MXs

See how after the first Knockdown he gets up and goes steaming in hehe,you can see the difference in size,how fucking brave was this guy to fight bigger men:-( ,shit i love these old timers,they are just awesome

[McGrain]

93 wins, 14 losses, 4 draws, 46 no decisions and 1 no contest in 163 professional bouts,60 knockout wins,that is fucking mad,guys back then seem so unreal,talk about hard as fucking nails

The best post in the history of ESB? It's not for me to say, but yes it is.

Mickey Walker v Tim Witherspoon is a reasonable title for a thread.

Sugar Ray Robinson v Time Witherspoon is a bit silly.

[joe33]

Jesus that was one of the bravest vids i have ever seen,the crowd and his own manager were screaming at him to stay down and for the ref to stop it,and yet he keeps getting up,and catches max numerous times,max is showing no mercy here,what a battle,if that fight was around now with colour and multiple angles we would be all saying its one of the very best,simple as that

[McGrain]

It's not possible for a fighter to have more heart than Walker, you can only ever have as much.

[Sweet Pea]

I have recently put him into my top 10 of all time. I am under the impression that he was better at MW though based on the majority opinion, and most footage of him I've seen is there. Not quite sure though, but I've always thought he was one of the best head to head around those weights. Just a bull.

Here's something for you McGrain, you pick Tiger to destroy Greb, yet it's told that Greb beat Walker "from pillar to post". What do you think of this?

[Bummy Davis]

Walker was a great fighter, one of the best bodypunchers, He is up there with Pep,Greb,SSR,Armstrong,Duran, as LB4LB top 10

[McGrain]

Here's something for you McGrain, you pick Tiger to destroy Greb, yet it's told that Greb beat Walker "from pillar to post". What do you think of this?

Round 1

They were fighting hard as the round ended, with Walker scoring heavily to the body with hard lefts. Walker's round.

Round 2

Walker outslugged Greb at close quarters...[Greb]almost sent Walker to the floor [with a right hand lead]...it was another Walker round on his clean punching.

Round 3

They went close...Greb clubbed Walker with a right to the head...Walker outpunched him in an exchange of swings...Walker sent another left to the body and Greb a chopping right to the head...another round for Walker on his solid body punching.

Round 4

Walker started with another left smash to the body...rushed and sent a left right to the head, but Greb only smiled...Greb...laughed as Mickey tried to free his arms from a clinch...Greb had a shade in this round, his first of the fight.

(I think this line in bold is pretty crucial Sweet Pea. Greb would not be stronger than Tiger. In fact he would probably get handled.)

Round 5

Walker scored cleanly to the mouth. Greb spat and put his glove to his mouth. A couple of his teeth had been knocked out. An even round.

(For what it's worth I think Greb lost his rag a wee bit at this point.

Round 6

They immediatly went close and flailed to the body with rights. Walker sent a left to the body (seems this was Walker's key punch)...Greb started to move. tThey stage a holding and hitting session...Greb [stole] the honours.

(Greb would need to fight a moving fight against Tiger. I think he is capable of it in spates, but is he capable of doing if for 15 rounds? He'd need that to take things away from Tiger I think).

Round 7

Greb rushed but Walker blocked. Greb forced Walker to the ropes but was unable to land. Harry...stayed close to Walker and pounded him about. Greb's round.

Round 8

Greb came out in full flight...a shower of punches forced Walker to the corner...Walker scored with four fast blows to the body. Greb had the shade.

Round 9

Greb crowded Walker to the ropes and mauled away...Walker sent a hard left to Greb's body and Greb rushed Walker wildly. The referee spoke to Greb...Walker had the beter of the exchanges at close quarters. Walker's work at close quarters gave him an even break in this round

(If Walker could best Greb inside, so could Tiger. Combine this with his superior strength and I think that Greb has serious trouble).

Round 10

Greb backed away from a right to the head...rushed Walker furiously and backed him to the ropes with a windmill of punches...Greb's most decisive round of the fight, he is stepping on the gas!

(Windmill would be of little use to Greb v Tiger. His jaw is granite and he is durable. He is willing to take to give. He is accurate and by far the harder puncher. He would punch through Greb in this sitiation. No "Forcing Tiger to the ropes" i'm afraid).

Round 11

Greb backed Mickey Walker into his own corner and held him prisoner there. Walker was furious [upon escaping] but Greb immediatly belaboured him with all kinds of punches. He forced Mickey back and was giving him a lacing when Walker let fly a powerful left to the jaw dazing Greb. Greb held on until his head cleared. Greb's round.

(Forget about lacing Tiger unless you are insanely quick about it. Forget about trying to hold on when hurt (if we are talking about the peak version))

Round 12

Walker outpunched Greb to body and head.

Round 13

Greb began circling Walker...[Greb outpunches Walker to win the round, there are some even exchanges from distance, Greb is picking his spots]...Greb's round.

(I love this. Greb hits trouble so changes tac. I think this area of Greb's game is underated, tactical, smart, picking his battles. But he STILL has to come inside to do his best work).

Round 14

They traded light blows...the referee was having terrible trouble with his trick knee and had to grab the ropes to hold himself up (:lol: naughty Greb!)...a right to the jaw sent Walker staggering to his own corner...Greb piled into finish him but Mickey stood up under a reign of punches and came back with a left. Greb tired himself considerably trying for a KO...Walker was all but out on his feet.

Round 15

They shook hands (!)...Greb's round.


Be nice to find a copy of this one in your uncle's basement wouldn't it? Still, I think Walker despite taking a beating had his successes. The reason Tiger is more likely to have success than Greb is strength in the main. Tiger would be the one laughing (not literally of course) in the clinches. Greb didn't enjoy getting hit to the body in this fight I don't think - Tiger would work him harder and wouldn't be so easy to fade in those middle rounds because he's not expending in the same way.

Anyway, there it is.

[Sweet Pea]

Round 4

Walker started with another left smash to the body...rushed and sent a left right to the head, but Greb only smiled...Greb...laughed as Mickey tried to free his arms from a clinch...Greb had a shade in this round, his first of the fight.

(I think this line in bold is pretty crucial Sweet Pea. Greb would not be stronger than Tiger. In fact he would probably get handled.)

So, do you not believe that Walker was very strong then?

[McGrain]

So, do you not believe that Walker was very strong then?

Yeah, he was an absolute muel.

But Tiger is the single strongest middle of all time, in my view.

A proper freak, like Jackson with power or Jones with speed.

[Sweet Pea]

Yeah, he was an absolute muel.

But Tiger is the single strongest middle of all time, in my view.

A proper freak, like Jackson with power or Jones with speed.I still don't quite see how that bolded part means anything then, considering it was talking about how Greb was outmuscling Walker the way he was.

I guess you're pointing out that he wouldn't be able to do it to Tiger in your view. Well, in other bits of the card, as you pointed out, it showed how Greb employed movement at times when the going got tough, and outdid him(as he was told to have done against Dempsey as well). If he had the amount of stamina and durability he had, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to use that to a good degree against Tiger. Emile Griffith was able to employ a good in and out strategy and handily outbox him.

[Russell]

Yeah, he was an absolute muel.

But Tiger is the single strongest middle of all time, in my view.

A proper freak, like Jackson with power or Jones with speed.

Examples of Tiger's strength?

[McGrain]

I still don't quite see how that bolded part means anything then, considering it was talking about how Greb was outmuscling Walker the way he was

Greb uses this tactic to turn the tide in his favour, not to mention to dishearten his opponent. If someone adopts an important tactic that he would be foolish to adopt versus another opponent (for example imagine Burley trying to pot-shot with Jones. This was an important tactic for Burley when he took on bigger, powerful men. But he'd be high and dry trying that on with Roy) that's relevant.

I guess you're pointing out that he wouldn't be able to do it to Tiger in your view. Well, in other bits of the card, as you pointed out, it showed how Greb employed movement at times when the going got tough, and outdid him(as he was told to have done against Dempsey as well). If he had the amount of stamina and durability he had, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to use that to a good degree against Tiger. Emile Griffith was able to employ a good in and out strategy and handily outbox him.

Griffith got a past-peak Tiger and part boxed him - but part out-muscled him. That, if nothing else shows how used up Tiger was. Remember how he threw about Fullmer and Giardello? Tiger wasn't Tiger for Griffith (not to take anything away from Emile - he exectued his designed tactics perfectly).

Greb would need to move, and I do admire that apparent facit of his game. That would be the fight he would need to fight. I, personally, expect Greb to get caught and hurt badly early, again later. KO'd? Never? But beaten, yes.

[dpw417]

If he's not, why not? He must be close. Sugar Ray Robinson is the usual shout. I'm always banging on about Charley Burley & sometimes a drunk or Holmes' Jab will try to force Leonard on you, but nobody seems to mention Walker....

His chin must be considered granite at the weight. Guys like Schmeling and Smith KO'd him but they were massive by comparison - and Walker's HW resume is actually not to bad! Fram Cyberboxing Zone:

"Against men who weighed more than 20lbs more than him his record was 10-1-2"

He has wins over much bigger pure boxers including Maxie Rosenbloom at light heavy, battered heavyweight contender Uzcudan to defeat and fought that famous draw with Jack Sharkey - is he on your top 50 HW's list? Because i'm pretty sure he'd make mine. The guy was capable of hustling much bigger pure boxers to defeat (though he lost some of these fights too) and could also outfight giants with whom he really had no business in the first place.

So my question is - what type of Welterweight would it take to beat a peak Mikey Walker? The great puncher or the great boxer? Because he beat much bigger versions of both.

WOuldn't he beat more great welterweights than any other great welterweights?

Is it possible to see him failing to win at least one of three against any WW in history?
First off, I want to say I think Mickey Walker was just an incredible fighter...but it seems to me, he rounded into more of a force at middleweight than welter...Don't you think?
IMO he would be much harder to beat at 160lbs.
I'd pick SRR, Gavilan, SRL, Rodriguez, Burley, Griffith and Duran...to beat him. Maybe I should say "outpoint" him instead! I don't see anyone standing in toe to toe for extended periods against the Bulldog.

[McGrain]

The notion of Duran beating Walker at ww is almost insane.

And I will say that to Stonehands' face.

I'd bet it all on Walker.

[dpw417]

The notion of Duran beating Walker at ww is almost insane.

And I will say that to Stonehands' face.

I'd bet it all on Walker.
uh huh..
Right.

[McGrain]

uh huh..
Right.

Explain, please, why Duran would beat Walker?

[dpw417]

Explain, please, why Duran would beat Walker?
Honestly McGrain...IMO it's a damn tough fight. I'd say the '79-'80 Duran would have the speed and the defense to outpoint Walker...The Walker fights I've seen are Loughran, Schmeling,Hudkins II, Milligan, and Sharkey highlights...I'm not disputing Walker's toughness or his tenacity...He's a killer. But I'm picking Duran stylistically because of his defense. Walker's punches travel in a wider arc, Duran is very adept at pressuring and slipping punches, I feel Duran would be capable of slipping Walker's left hook, and countering to the body...then clinching, before Walker gets off again. During the first Leonard fight, he demonstrated the ability to slip a very fast handed fighter's blows...I sure Walker would be quick at welter, but not SRL quick...Another reason is that Duran absolutely excelled when other fighters approached him...namely timing them with quick right hand leads, then attacking from an angle.When being approached, Duran did not have to make the initial feint to find an opening, he could just counter... He couldn't get away with approaching Walker like any other welter, he'd have to box more...but Duran had that skillset...especially against someone his height. I'd pick Duran by decision...
I feel Walker came into his own at middleweight...
There you go...I'm insane!

[McGrain]

Walker KO10.

Wrong man.

[dpw417]

Walker KO10.

Wrong man.
Why don't you please explain?
Why Walker KO 10 Duran?

[Sweet Pea]

I also think Walker was better at MW. I don't think at WW he was as skilled as Duran, and by no means is this a mismatch.

[McGrain]

The Walker that lost to Greb was 152.

Anyone who needs schooling as to why Walker beats Duran needs to do his own homework as far as I am concerned.

No disrespect.

[sweet_scientist]

Walker would get beaten by quite a few welterweight boxer types imo. Sure, if anyone wants to go toe-to-toe with him, Walker will likely triumph, but he could be outpointed by the likes of Robinson, Leonard, Whitaker, Rodriguez, Graham and I'd favour the likes of Gavilan, Hearns and Napoles as well, though he'd have a decent chance against the latter three. A younger Jack Britton might have beaten him as well (he actually did, but of course that was a green Walker), and Barney Ross would have a decent chance of outboxing him too. Possibly even a welterweight Benny Leonard could do the trick on his best night there.

[Sweet Pea]

Walker would get beaten by quite a few welterweight boxer types imo. Sure, if anyone wants to go toe-to-toe with him, Walker will likely triumph, but he could be outpointed by the likes of Robinson, Leonard, Whitaker, Rodriguez, Graham and I'd favour the likes of Gavilan, Hearns and Napoles as well, though he'd have a decent chance against the latter three. A younger Jack Britton might have beaten him as well (he actually did, but of course that was a green Walker), and Barney Ross would have a decent chance of outboxing him too. Possibly even a welterweight Benny Leonard could do the trick on his best night there.Are you in agreeance that Walker was at his best more at MW?

[Dempsey1238]

Walker would get beaten by quite a few welterweight boxer types imo. Sure, if anyone wants to go toe-to-toe with him, Walker will likely triumph, but he could be outpointed by the likes of Robinson, Leonard, Whitaker, Rodriguez, Graham and I'd favour the likes of Gavilan, Hearns and Napoles as well, though he'd have a decent chance against the latter three. A younger Jack Britton might have beaten him as well (he actually did, but of course that was a green Walker), and Barney Ross would have a decent chance of outboxing him too. Possibly even a welterweight Benny Leonard could do the trick on his best night there.

Come on, you mean that fight footage I gave you didnt make you think he can beat Gavilan>???

I favor Walker over Billy Graham though, it would be a slugfest, but Walker was faster. And he find Hearns glass chin.

[dpw417]

McGrain.
No disrespect taken.
But I am puzzled to why you put your opinion out and then just expect that to suffice...(?)
I'll just assume you are basing your point in regards to the battle Walker engaged Greb...That is indeed worth considering, and I'll not overlook it!
I believe Walker to be the stronger fighter even at welter, Kearns remarked that Walker had a similar build to another welter by the name of Joe Walcott, in regarding his thick set musculature...who as you know, who also took on heavyweights, which is just flat out incredible...He and Walker were indeed welterweight forces of nature! The likes of this problably will never be seen again.
Strength is one advantage Walker would have over Duran...How many others? Size? It's relatively close, one at 5'7" Walker, Duran is 5'8"...Speed? I'd have to go with Duran, in his better welterweight fights, he looked as though he had retained his speed from his lightweight days...and his speed is substancial in a match up with Walker. Defense? Against Loughran, Walker did avoid alot of jabs, and rolled out of the way against Loughran's sporadic rights...but I feel by judging the films, that Duran has a considerable edge in aggressive defense over Walker...
Walker does not demonstrate the ability to close distance, making an opponent miss, and then countering in a split second time span (in comparison to Duran)...Duran demonstrated his defensive ability in any fight you care to mention...at welter. Carlos Palomino, a strong body puncher was nullified by Duran for the most part of ten rounds...it was a shut out for Duran on the basis of his defense...Ray Leonard, incredibly fast hands and decent power...Duran did get hit in this fight...But again for the most part, he was able to evade and smother Leonard's very fast combinations and power punches...A question, do you think Walker has the ability to punch as quickly as Leonard? I don't...Davey Moore, at junior middleweight, another clinic on defensive infighting...But I'll say Walker is much more experienced than the relative novice Moore (in comparison to Duran)
Power...how strong a puncher was Walker? Is he underated? Possibly so. Jack Britton, the man Walker defeated for the welterweight title was only stopped once in 344 fights!...Walker defended his title four times, the names that stand out to me are Dave Shade a west coast fighter who used the bob and weave attack, and Lew Tendler, a very highly regarded power punching southpaw who went the distance twice against Benny Leonard...Tough opposition, I'll admit that!...Before Walker fought Greb, he got the better of a fight against Mike Mctigue the reigning light heavyweight champion...I have to pose this question...Should Walker have scored more kayo's at welter then he did? It is difficult to say...but I do think that he was a more powerful middleweight than welter...due in part to difficulty making the weight and the noticible power he demonstrated against bigger men fighting above the welterweight limit. Duran's power output did nosedive when fighting bigger men than lightweight...but in alot of fights over his prime fighting weight, he demonstrated the capability to hurt larger men...Leonard, Cuevas, Palomino, Moore, Barkley...Do you think Duran's power is overated or underated? I'm sure the fighters he fought will tell you he is a punishing fighter no matter what they might weigh.
While I admire Walker for his fighting spirit and willingness to tangle with anything put in front of him...I cannot think of another advantage he may have over Duran other than strength and power...and while Walker was a good hitter at welterweight, it is regarded that he was not a great puncher at this weight.
I maintain that Duran has a more refined defensive style that enables him to attack and counter the offense that Walker demonstrates on film at welterweight...and that will earn a decision win for him at welterweight.
As for Walker kayoing Duran in 10?
Prove it!
Duran was only legitimately stopped twice by Hearns and Joppy well above welterweight. If Latzo, Tendler, Friedman, Shade, and Jones (NC) can last the distance with Walker at welterweight in title defenses, why can't argueably one of the greatest all round fighters in Roberto Duran? Duran is definitely one of the ten greatest fighters in boxing history...at the very least! Argueably he is top five of all time!!!
Again I ask in what way will Walker beat Duran at welterweight? Why don't you do some homework?

[sweet_scientist]

Are you in agreeance that Walker was at his best more at MW?

Probably. It's hard to say though. I think Walker's greatest asset was his durability. His greatest weakness was his ability to deal with speedy boxer types. I think that weakness was more hidden the higher up in weight he went. That is to say, he was more likely to encounter speedy boxers at welterweight than he was at middleweight. At middleweight fighters were a tad slower and not as nimble and so Walker could handle them quite well.

[Dempsey1238]

I think your underated Tendler's chin.

[Sweet Pea]

McGrain.
No disrespect taken.
But I am puzzled to why you put your opinion out and then just expect that to suffice...(?)
I'll just assume you are basing your point in regards to the battle Walker engaged Greb...That is indeed worth considering, and I'll not overlook it!
I believe Walker to be the stronger fighter even at welter, Kearns remarked that Walker had a similar build to another welter by the name of Joe Walcott, in regarding his thick set musculature...who as you know, who also took on heavyweights, which is just flat out incredible...He and Walker were indeed welterweight forces of nature! The likes of this problably will never be seen again.
Strength is one advantage Walker would have over Duran...How many others? Size? It's relatively close, one at 5'7" Walker, Duran is 5'8"...Speed? I'd have to go with Duran, in his better welterweight fights, he looked as though he had retained his speed from his lightweight days...and his speed is substancial in a match up with Walker. Defense? Against Loughran, Walker did avoid alot of jabs, and rolled out of the way against Loughran's sporadic rights...but I feel by judging the films, that Duran has a considerable edge in aggressive defense over Walker...
Walker does not demonstrate the ability to close distance, making an opponent miss, and then countering in a split second time span (in comparison to Duran)...Duran demonstrated his defensive ability in any fight you care to mention...at welter. Carlos Palomino, a strong body puncher was nullified by Duran for the most part of ten rounds...it was a shut out for Duran on the basis of his defense...Ray Leonard, incredibly fast hands and decent power...Duran did get hit in this fight...But again for the most part, he was able to evade and smother Leonard's very fast combinations and power punches...A question, do you think Walker has the ability to punch as quickly as Leonard? I don't...Davey Moore, at junior middleweight, another clinic on defensive infighting...But I'll say Walker is much more experienced than the relative novice Moore (in comparison to Duran)
Power...how strong a puncher was Walker? Is he underated? Possibly so. Jack Britton, the man Walker defeated for the welterweight title was only stopped once in 344 fights!...Walker defended his title four times, the names that stand out to me are Dave Shade a west coast fighter who used the bob and weave attack, and Lew Tendler, a very highly regarded power punching southpaw who went the distance twice against Benny Leonard...Tough opposition, I'll admit that!...Before Walker fought Greb, he got the better of a fight against Mike Mctigue the reigning light heavyweight champion...I have to pose this question...Should Walker have scored more kayo's at welter then he did? It is difficult to say...but I do think that he was a more powerful middleweight than welter...due in part to difficulty making the weight and the noticible power he demonstrated against bigger men fighting above the welterweight limit. Duran's power output did nosedive when fighting bigger men than lightweight...but in alot of fights over his prime fighting weight, he demonstrated the capability to hurt larger men...Leonard, Cuevas, Palomino, Moore, Barkley...Do you think Duran's power is overated or underated? I'm sure the fighters he fought will tell you he is a punishing fighter no matter what they might weigh.
While I admire Walker for his fighting spirit and willingness to tangle with anything put in front of him...I cannot think of another advantage he may have over Duran other than strength and power...and while Walker was a good hitter at welterweight, it is regarded that he was not a great puncher at this weight.
I maintain that Duran has a more refined defensive style that enables him to attack and counter the offense that Walker demonstrates on film at welterweight...and that will earn a decision win for him at welterweight.
As for Walker kayoing Duran in 10?
Prove it!
Duran was only legitimately stopped twice by Hearns and Joppy well above welterweight. If Latzo, Tendler, Friedman, Shade, and Jones (NC) can last the distance with Walker at welterweight in title defenses, why can't argueably one of the greatest all round fighters in Roberto Duran? Duran is definitely one of the ten greatest fighters in boxing history...at the very least! Argueably he is top five of all time!!!
Again I ask in what way will Walker beat Duran at welterweight? Why don't you do some homework?McGrain is drunk right now, he's made threads about it, he's thinking more with his heart than his head. So while that was an excellent post, I fear it may be wasted on him right now, even though he may still feel Walker has the edge, it wouldn't be that handy an edge if he thought it through.

But I agree with most everything you wrote. Duran at his best was brilliant, and I'd probably take him over Walker at WW. MW is a totally different story though.

[sweet_scientist]

Come on, you mean that fight footage I gave you didnt make you think he can beat Gavilan>???

I'll need more footage for convincing. :D

I have a high opinion of Gavilan. He had very good boxing ability and very good durability. I had him up against Basilio and I think Walker would present a pretty similar fight to Kid stylistically. It would be razor thin, and i wouldn't be surprised of Walker did get the W, but my pick is Gavilan. A little too much boxing ability.

I favor Walker over Billy Graham though, it would be a slugfest, but Walker was faster. And he find Hearns glass chin.

Graham had very good defense and reslience and I think Walker would struggle to find him. Gavilan at the top of his game (looking better than he did against Carmen) couldn't hit Graham squarley with many shots and he had very good handspeed and skill. I think Graham will box him off the back foot and use side to side movement, stopping for quick one two and huddling up well in the clinches and landing sporadic body shots. Walker will not figure him out imo.

[dpw417]

I think your underated Tendler's chin.
Is Tendler's chin better than Duran's? I'm not sure. Are you?

[dpw417]

McGrain is drunk right now, he's made threads about it, he's thinking more with his heart than his head. So while that was an excellent post, I fear it may be wasted on him right now, even though he may still feel Walker has the edge, it wouldn't be that handy an edge if he thought it through.

But I agree with most everything you wrote. Duran at his best was brilliant, and I'd probably take him over Walker at WW. MW is a totally different story though.
Thanks Pea.
Middleweight is a different story!

[Dempsey1238]

Is Tendler's chin better than Duran's? I'm not sure. Are you?


WE are talking about a guy that nearly complete in 200 bouts (He was off a bit for that) and he was stop 1 mere time. I think his chin is more proven than Duran's imo, and thats all battling the likes of Walker, Benny, Johnny Dundee, Rocky Kansas, among others of couse. It was only the greats like Benny Leonard that stop Tendler from winning the title.

[dpw417]

WE are talking about a guy that nearly complete in 200 bouts (He was off a bit for that) and he was stop 1 mere time. I think his chin is more proven than Duran's imo, and thats all battling the likes of Walker, Benny, Johnny Dundee, Rocky Kansas, among others of couse. It was only the greats like Benny Leonard that stop Tendler from winning the title.
I'm not disputing anything re Tendler's standing or his chin...In my context, I stated that Tendler went the distance with Walker, and IMO Walker could not KO Duran either...and while Tendler was regarded as a great lightweight in a very tough era, he is not regarded in the same class as a Duran.

[Stonehands89]

The notion of Duran beating Walker at ww is almost insane.

And I will say that to Stonehands' face.

I'd bet it all on Walker.

You'd be better advised to wait for the Montreal Duran to step up in weight to his MW "prime" against Hagler. Mickey would be favored heavily by Stonehands to handily defeat Duran.

But WW...? Here's your problem. Walker aged out of the WW division. He was about 24 when he moved up and througout the previous three years he was fighting overweight frequently. His losses to light-punchers Pete Latzo (a southpaw journeyman out of Jersey) and Joe Dundee (Sicilian Salvatore Lazzara, a pressure fighter) don't suggest that they outclassed him, but that he was weight drained. I am just not sure that a 23 year-old, pre-peak Walker can handle the ferociously talented more or less peaking 29 year-old Duran.

I will say this... if Mickey was as strong and comfortable at WW as he was as a MW, I'd have a tough time choosing against him! I just don't quite accept that he was. He had the correct style to defeat Duran. Prime Duran is not the 80s Duran -speed, mobility, and elusiveness just ain't enough.

The fighter who beats 78-80 Duran is a different beast.

First of all, he's a beast. He's strong enough to deal with the very strong Duran inside. He's also has fast hands and a high skill level. Perhaps most importantly, he must have the firepower to keep Duran thinking twice and a bit hesitant. Shane Mosley comes to mind -not because of the mobility, but because of the hand speed and the power. Mickey Walker has even more to offer -he is among the most modern-style fighters of the 20s (angles, feints, varying shots, hell, he even had a beeeeeeautyful check hook).

He is as skilled than Shane (I think he may be more skilled, all told). In fact, if you watch the bout with Schmeling, you see similarities between what Mickey was doing to handle the larger man and what Roberto was doing to handle Iran Barkley. Sneak hooks, overhands, counters, lead overhands and then a left to the body, expert clinching and the like.

Generally speaking Walker is stronger than Duran... you don't defeat guys who outweigh you by 42 pounds like Bearcat Wright unless you are gamma-strong.

However, I don't think that the WW version was quite what the MW version was. I think about James Toney as a MW, a few brilliant performances (McCallum), but nothing like he became 8 pounds north as demonstrated by the Barkley and Williams fights. (And Fat James just kept on eating his way past the point of diminishing returns.)

So, apologies to McGrain, but I suspect that Duran was too fierce and Walker to famished for the latter to defeat the former at 147.

McGrain my friend, if you have sobered up, I must ask you, is this (and dpw's strong analysis) the rambling of a drooling idiot....?

[McGrain]

I hate you all.

:lol:

Will get back to these excellent posts concerning Walker and Duran a bit later on. Feeling a bit tender.

:barf

[Dempsey1238]

I'm not disputing anything re Tendler's standing or his chin...In my context, I stated that Tendler went the distance with Walker, and IMO Walker could not KO Duran either...and while Tendler was regarded as a great lightweight in a very tough era, he is not regarded in the same class as a Duran.

Tendler may have been in that class, have Benny Leonard not been around imo.

[JohnThomas1]

If he's not, why not? He must be close. Sugar Ray Robinson is the usual shout. I'm always banging on about Charley Burley & sometimes a drunk or Holmes' Jab will try to force Leonard on you, but nobody seems to mention Walker....


I hope the drunks not me on a saturday night! I'd never push Leonard ahead of SRR.

Good to see you giving Walker a shout, he fascinates me to be honest.

[mcvey]

Round 1

They were fighting hard as the round ended, with Walker scoring heavily to the body with hard lefts. Walker's round.

Round 2

Walker outslugged Greb at close quarters...[Greb]almost sent Walker to the floor [with a right hand lead]...it was another Walker round on his clean punching.

Round 3

They went close...Greb clubbed Walker with a right to the head...Walker outpunched him in an exchange of swings...Walker sent another left to the body and Greb a chopping right to the head...another round for Walker on his solid body punching.

Round 4

Walker started with another left smash to the body...rushed and sent a left right to the head, but Greb only smiled...Greb...laughed as Mickey tried to free his arms from a clinch...Greb had a shade in this round, his first of the fight.

(I think this line in bold is pretty crucial Sweet Pea. Greb would not be stronger than Tiger. In fact he would probably get handled.)

Round 5

Walker scored cleanly to the mouth. Greb spat and put his glove to his mouth. A couple of his teeth had been knocked out. An even round.

(For what it's worth I think Greb lost his rag a wee bit at this point.

Round 6

They immediatly went close and flailed to the body with rights. Walker sent a left to the body (seems this was Walker's key punch)...Greb started to move. tThey stage a holding and hitting session...Greb [stole] the honours.

(Greb would need to fight a moving fight against Tiger. I think he is capable of it in spates, but is he capable of doing if for 15 rounds? He'd need that to take things away from Tiger I think).

Round 7

Greb rushed but Walker blocked. Greb forced Walker to the ropes but was unable to land. Harry...stayed close to Walker and pounded him about. Greb's round.

Round 8

Greb came out in full flight...a shower of punches forced Walker to the corner...Walker scored with four fast blows to the body. Greb had the shade.

Round 9

Greb crowded Walker to the ropes and mauled away...Walker sent a hard left to Greb's body and Greb rushed Walker wildly. The referee spoke to Greb...Walker had the beter of the exchanges at close quarters. Walker's work at close quarters gave him an even break in this round

(If Walker could best Greb inside, so could Tiger. Combine this with his superior strength and I think that Greb has serious trouble).

Round 10

Greb backed away from a right to the head...rushed Walker furiously and backed him to the ropes with a windmill of punches...Greb's most decisive round of the fight, he is stepping on the gas!

(Windmill would be of little use to Greb v Tiger. His jaw is granite and he is durable. He is willing to take to give. He is accurate and by far the harder puncher. He would punch through Greb in this sitiation. No "Forcing Tiger to the ropes" i'm afraid).

Round 11

Greb backed Mickey Walker into his own corner and held him prisoner there. Walker was furious [upon escaping] but Greb immediatly belaboured him with all kinds of punches. He forced Mickey back and was giving him a lacing when Walker let fly a powerful left to the jaw dazing Greb. Greb held on until his head cleared. Greb's round.

(Forget about lacing Tiger unless you are insanely quick about it. Forget about trying to hold on when hurt (if we are talking about the peak version))

Round 12

Walker outpunched Greb to body and head.

Round 13

Greb began circling Walker...[Greb outpunches Walker to win the round, there are some even exchanges from distance, Greb is picking his spots]...Greb's round.

(I love this. Greb hits trouble so changes tac. I think this area of Greb's game is underated, tactical, smart, picking his battles. But he STILL has to come inside to do his best work).

Round 14

They traded light blows...the referee was having terrible trouble with his trick knee and had to grab the ropes to hold himself up (:lol: naughty Greb!)...a right to the jaw sent Walker staggering to his own corner...Greb piled into finish him but Mickey stood up under a reign of punches and came back with a left. Greb tired himself considerably trying for a KO...Walker was all but out on his feet.

Round 15

They shook hands (!)...Greb's round.


Be nice to find a copy of this one in your uncle's basement wouldn't it? Still, I think Walker despite taking a beating had his successes. The reason Tiger is more likely to have success than Greb is strength in the main. Tiger would be the one laughing (not literally of course) in the clinches. Greb didn't enjoy getting hit to the body in this fight I don't think - Tiger would work him harder and wouldn't be so easy to fade in those middle rounds because he's not expending in the same way.

Anyway, there it is.
An important fact to consider when analysing the Walker Greb Fight is that Greb had to nearly cut his arms off to make the weight,he had no solid food for two days prior to the fight and spent them running around a reservoir ,bundled up in jerseys ,he lived on synthetic orange juice , to keep his weight down and came in to the ring with a plan to start slowly and bide his time ,this was not typical of Greb who usually started fast and speeded up as he went along.Greb came in to his own after the first half of the fight ,and began to hit out in his normal fashion ,Walker was a great fighter,but he was lucky to go the distance in this scrap.At the finish Greb embraced him and said,"your'e allright Mickey"

[McGrain]

Honestly McGrain...IMO it's a damn tough fight.

Don't doubt it!

I'd say the '79-'80 Duran would have the speed and the defense to outpoint Walker...I'm picking Duran stylistically because of his defense.

Yeah, he is far, far harder to hit than he is generally given credit for, I blame the Hearns debicle when he looked a bit wide open.

Walker's punches travel in a wider arc, Duran is very adept at pressuring and slipping punches, I feel Duran would be capable of slipping Walker's left hook, and countering to the body...then clinching, before Walker gets off again.

You're describing a fight that is taking place at distance. That certainly wouldn't be Duran-Walker (and if it was Duran would find it tough on the backfoot against a guy who can work as a volume puncher). This fight is going to be fought mostly chest to chest I think or close to it. I still think that your point about Duran's defence because he can certainly crowd and smother, but Walker is adept, check him out in the clinches with Schmeling (who, obviously, is going to be hitting about 200% harder than Duran).

Walker is the better puncher and he is an excellent, excellent body puncher. I really think a stoppage is possible a bit later on, but I think Walker wouldn't dominate enough to take a close decision should it go to the cards.

During the first Leonard fight, he demonstrated the ability to slip a very fast handed fighter's blows...I sure Walker would be quick at welter, but not SRL quick...Another reason is that Duran absolutely excelled when other fighters approached him...namely timing them with quick right hand leads, then attacking from an angle.When being approached, Duran did not have to make the initial feint to find an opening, he could just counter... He couldn't get away with approaching Walker like any other welter, he'd have to box more...but Duran had that skillset...especially against someone his height. I'd pick Duran by decision...
I feel Walker came into his own at middleweight...
There you go...I'm insane!

I like your analysis of Duran at work, I think it's cracking. I also think that you identify the correct strategy for Roberto. But the very fact that he is expected to work as the counter-puncher rather than the aggressor tells it's own story. Walker would "out Duran" Roberto.

[McGrain]

Speed? I'd have to go with Duran, in his better welterweight fights, he looked as though he had retained his speed from his lightweight days

Peak for peak, yes indeed, I would agree.

...and his speed is substancial in a match up with Walker. Defense? Against Loughran, Walker did avoid alot of jabs, and rolled out of the way against Loughran's sporadic rights...but I feel by judging the films, that Duran has a considerable edge in aggressive defense over Walker...

I think I agree with this two, but the fact is that Walker can afford to be hit. This drastically alters the equation. Duran does make angles off his defence, he does own his space even in retreat but Walker doesn't need to do these things, he can take to give. He's the puncher in the fight.

Walker does not demonstrate the ability to close distance, making an opponent miss, and then countering in a split second time span (in comparison to Duran)

You maybe go a bit far for my liking here - although you may be quite right it should be added, that Walker was wonderfully good at rolling and moving with punches when neccesary, that is he was very very difficult to hit cleanly. So whilst Duran is good at slipping and punching, Walker is very very good at getting punched and punching.

Here, that is to his advantage, unquestionably.


I do think that he was a more powerful middleweight than welter...due in part to difficulty making the weight and the noticible power he demonstrated against bigger men fighting above the welterweight limit.

Yes, he was probably more powerful once bigger, but this is often the case.

Walker actually had hardly any fights as a modern MW. As i've said he weight in under the modern light-middle limit for Greb, five pounds over the welterweight limit. He'd probably have started out at 140 if he turned pro in 2008 before working his way up to 160.

Anyway, after taking on Flowers Walker was soon up over 160, bulked up for the massive men he was to share the ring with.

Do you think Duran's power is overated or underated? I'm sure the fighters he fought will tell you he is a punishing fighter no matter what they might weigh.

Overated generally, but not by you. He's what I would call a stinging puncher.

While I admire Walker for his fighting spirit and willingness to tangle with anything put in front of him...I cannot think of another advantage he may have over Duran other than strength and power...and while Walker was a good hitter at welterweight, it is regarded that he was not a great puncher at this weight.

Why should it take more than strength and power? In a violent fight conducted at close range these are probably the two most important factors. Whatever your opinion of Walker's power at this weight, he undoubtedly is the puncher in this fight and this is the most important "stylistic advantage" of all in a fight where many types of punches are going to be thrown in a high volume fight.

As for other advantages Walker has: Chin and heart spring to mind.

I rate Walker at #6 all time and Duran at #9. So I consider Walker the greater fighter.

[McGrain]

You'd be better advised to wait for the Montreal Duran to step up in weight to his MW "prime" against Hagler.

As an aside, just how highly do you rate the the Hagler performance?

His losses to light-punchers Pete Latzo (a southpaw journeyman out of Jersey) and Joe Dundee (Sicilian Salvatore Lazzara, a pressure fighter) don't suggest that they outclassed him, but that he was weight drained. I am just not sure that a 23 year-old, pre-peak Walker can handle the ferociously talented more or less peaking 29 year-old Duran.

I don't knojw the Latzo fight, although i think i'm right in saying that he also beat Rosenbloom? So journeyman might be a bit strong.

The Dundee fight was a cuts loss. You can only imagine how bad the cut was for it to be stopped but it tells us nothing about how weight drained Walker might have been. Not to mention he weighed in over the WW limit anyway.

In an imagined peak for peak fight conducted under perfect conditions and after perfect conditioning, I would not consider weight to be an issue. If 152 is a comfortable weight for peaking Walker (And it clearly is) then 147 is perfectly doable with proper preperation. Tiger ditched 5lbs in one afternoon from his 165 frame on one occasion.

I will say this... if Mickey was as strong and comfortable at WW as he was as a MW, I'd have a tough time choosing against him! I just don't quite accept that he was. He had the correct style to defeat Duran. Prime Duran is not the 80s Duran -speed, mobility, and elusiveness just ain't enough.

The fighter who beats 78-80 Duran is a different beast.

First of all, he's a beast. He's strong enough to deal with the very strong Duran inside. He's also has fast hands and a high skill level. Perhaps most importantly, he must have the firepower to keep Duran thinking twice and a bit hesitant. Shane Mosley comes to mind -not because of the mobility, but because of the hand speed and the power. Mickey Walker has even more to offer -he is among the most modern-style fighters of the 20s (angles, feints, varying shots, hell, he even had a beeeeeeautyful check hook).

He is as skilled than Shane (I think he may be more skilled, all told). In fact, if you watch the bout with Schmeling, you see similarities between what Mickey was doing to handle the larger man and what Roberto was doing to handle Iran Barkley. Sneak hooks, overhands, counters, lead overhands and then a left to the body, expert clinching and the like.

Generally speaking Walker is stronger than Duran... you don't defeat guys who outweigh you by 42 pounds like Bearcat Wright unless you are gamma-strong.

However, I don't think that the WW version was quite what the MW version was. I think about James Toney as a MW, a few brilliant performances (McCallum), but nothing like he became 8 pounds north as demonstrated by the Barkley and Williams fights. (And Fat James just kept on eating his way past the point of diminishing returns.)

So, apologies to McGrain, but I suspect that Duran was too fierce and Walker to famished for the latter to defeat the former at 147.

McGrain my friend, if you have sobered up, I must ask you, is this (and dpw's strong analysis) the rambling of a drooling idiot....?

This was a good read certainly neither you or DP are drooling idiots.

Both wrong on this occasion though ;)

[McGrain]

.

[Stonehands89]

As an aside, just how highly do you rate the the Hagler performance?
What Duran did against Hagler was the best he could have done at 32, 25 pounds above his best weight and at that juncture of his career. I think that Duran's stand-off and angle and counter strategy was the stuff of genious (Leonard and Dundee relied parts of it for their own strategy against Hagler). However, I think it proves behind any doubt that the best MW version of Duran could not beat Hagler.

I don't knojw the Latzo fight, although i think i'm right in saying that he also beat Rosenbloom? So journeyman might be a bit strong.

The Dundee fight was a cuts loss. You can only imagine how bad the cut was for it to be stopped but it tells us nothing about how weight drained Walker might have been. Not to mention he weighed in over the WW limit anyway.
To get cut you gotta get hit. Hell, if you come in dehydrated (I don't know that he did... but it may be a decent inference), your skin loses elasticity and is more susceptible to cuts. The fact that he was Irish didn't help there either. They were both losses and among the last of his fights at WW.

In an imagined peak for peak fight conducted under perfect conditions and after perfect conditioning, I would not consider weight to be an issue. If 152 is a comfortable weight for peaking Walker (And it clearly is) then 147 is perfectly doable with proper preperation.Tiger ditched 5lbs in one afternoon from his 165 frame on one occasion.
147 is not necessarily perfectably doablefor Walker. You are making an assumption. I think that the trajectory of his career suggests otherwise -that would be a more solidly grounded assertion. Fighters have varying constitutions and 1 pound can make a difference.

This was a good read certainly neither you or DP are drooling idiots.

Both wrong on this occasion though ;)
... or perhaps the arguments are too weighty to really attack...

I was hoping that you'd appreciate that rare photo that I uncovered for my avatar. I am a fan of Mickey Walker and consider him to be among the strongest fighters ever, and the most impressive with handling larger men. More impressive than Duran and far more impressive than Toney and Jones put together. I will also argue with anyone that he would mutilate and destroy Floyd Mayweather and just for laughs would end that bout with... a check hook.

[McGrain]

What Duran did against Hagler was the best he could have done at 32, 25 pounds above his best weight and at that juncture of his career. I think that Duran's stand-off and angle and counter strategy was the stuff of genious (Leonard and Dundee relied parts of it for their own strategy against Hagler). However, I think it proves behind any doubt that the best MW version of Duran could not beat Hagler.

I'm beginning to think of it as one of his best actually! I remember the first time I saw it I was kind of dissapionted...it grows you, I think you've described why perfectly.


To get cut you gotta get hit. Hell, if you come in dehydrated (I don't know that he did... but it may be a decent inference), your skin loses elasticity and is more susceptible to cuts. The fact that he was Irish didn't help there either. They were both losses and among the last of his fights at WW.

He always got hit, just normally not clean. In addition i can't find a definitive ruling on what caused the cut - it was so bad that Walker couldn't actually see so if i'm honest it sounds like heads to me. But that IS speculation.

So is your comment conerning fighting dehydrated though!

Regardless it doesn't matter, once again - Walker was not a WW for the Dundee fight. He was over by one or two pounds.


147 is not necessarily perfectably doablefor Walker. You are making an assumption. I think that the trajectory of his career suggests otherwise -that would be a more solidly grounded assertion. Fighters have varying constitutions and 1 pound can make a difference.

I can't argue with you here, i am assuming. But I do think the assumption is unreasonable at all.


I was hoping that you'd appreciate that rare photo that I uncovered for my avatar.

It's a beauty. He looks well Irish!

[dpw417]

Don't doubt it!



Yeah, he is far, far harder to hit than he is generally given credit for, I blame the Hearns debicle when he looked a bit wide open.



You're describing a fight that is taking place at distance. That certainly wouldn't be Duran-Walker (and if it was Duran would find it tough on the backfoot against a guy who can work as a volume puncher). This fight is going to be fought mostly chest to chest I think or close to it. I still think that your point about Duran's defence because he can certainly crowd and smother, but Walker is adept, check him out in the clinches with Schmeling (who, obviously, is going to be hitting about 200% harder than Duran).

Walker is the better puncher and he is an excellent, excellent body puncher. I really think a stoppage is possible a bit later on, but I think Walker wouldn't dominate enough to take a close decision should it go to the cards.



I like your analysis of Duran at work, I think it's cracking. I also think that you identify the correct strategy for Roberto. But the very fact that he is expected to work as the counter-puncher rather than the aggressor tells it's own story. Walker would "out Duran" Roberto.
You've made very valid points across the board, and it seems that we agree on some of them. Your analogy of this fight, is how I would guess at a fight between the two at middleweight would unfold...at that weight it would be fought at a closer distance, and Walker would outwork Duran.
But we are talking welterweight...
Would Walker 'out Duran' Roberto at 147lbs? Yes, I feel he would! That can concluded from watching the film as you said. Walker is an entirely different animal in the ring, than what Duran encountered with Leonard, Palomino, Cuevas, Moore, etc... Walker is a hard minded, never say die competitor who would not quit to save his life! He told Kearns after the Schmeling torture,"You're the one who quit Doc, NOT ME!"...This is who Duran is facing...
Okay...That being said.
Let's talk about fighting distance in this fight...We both agree Walker would be the overall stronger fighter on the inside. I'll concede that because Walker is one special fighter...You stated that you could see Duran being forced onto the backfoot against a volume puncher who excels at body punching...The fight would be a chest to chest affair...Which eventually would lead to a stoppage win for Walker.
For this to happen, Duran would have to be very stationary, and not have any other choice then to engage Walker...I'll give you Duran fought in a more stationary manner relying on defense and guile to capitalize on opponents mistakes when he fought the larger men at junior middle and middle. Question: How immobile was Duran in his welterweight fights? He wasn't. That is the main difference in the Duran at light/welter versus the Duran at JM/middle. At welter, Duran still had the ability to close distance for offense and either slip and counter or get out of firing range (consider that Walker is not a larger, rangier man). Duran's mobility is a huge factor IMO on the outcome of this fight.
It seems we agree that if it goes to the cards, Duran may take it...So how does Walker impose his strength on Duran enough to gain a stoppage victory? In Duran's two definitive stoppage losses...Hearns blitzed him with breathtaking speed and power (at junior middle). Does Walker have that kind of speed or power? I don't think so...Joppy? Duran was closer to fifty than forty for that fight...nuff said.
Walker would have to do what you stated, he'd have to grind Duran down. That of coarse is predicated on his being able to find Duran on a consistant enough basis to accomplish this...Duran never lost in this manner ever...never mind close to his prime.
Duran would engage Walker, and it would be a tremendous fight...but Duran's mobility allows him to choose when and how he engages. He has the skillset (which he has demonstrated against very good fighters) to stay out of the pit with Walker...In order for a strength advantage to work for you, you need to be able to impose it. Duran's mobility would not allow Walker to set as he would wish. Even at close range, wouldn't Duran be effective enough to spin and gain angles with Walker? It would be a chess match in there to be sure...But how does Walker break down a mobile foe who is also adept at inside fighting?(and who happens to be an ATG in his own right)
Does Walker possess the footspeed to track down Duran, and hurt him to the point of a stoppage? Nothing in Walker's welterweight record would support him being able to accomplish this against one of the best all time.
I maintain it's Duran by decision.

[McGrain]

He told Kearns after the Schmeling torture,"You're the one who quit Doc, NOT ME!"...This is who Duran is facing...

:lol:

Yeah. Walker was crazy.

You stated that you could see Duran being forced onto the backfoot against a volume puncher who excels at body punching...The fight would be a chest to chest affair...Which eventually would lead to a stoppage win for Walker.


I think that Duran is actually perfectly capable of meeting Walker in the ring and using smarts and speed to try to get the better of the violent confrontations that each round would bring. This is how I would advise Duran to fight, allowing for that step out if things are going badly/if he needs a bit of a rest.


For this to happen, Duran would have to be very stationary, and not have any other choice then to engage Walker...I'll give you Duran fought in a more stationary manner relying on defense and guile to capitalize on opponents mistakes when he fought the larger men at junior middle and middle. Question: How immobile was Duran in his welterweight fights? He wasn't. That is the main difference in the Duran at light/welter versus the Duran at JM/middle. At welter, Duran still had the ability to close distance for offense and either slip and counter or get out of firing range (consider that Walker is not a larger, rangier man). Duran's mobility is a huge factor IMO on the outcome of this fight.

Duran is more mobile. But I think using that mobility would be a mistake in this fight.

Walker is impossible to discourage. He is coming forward, Duran cannot hit him hard enough to make him think twice, I am convinced of this (although we agree Duran can punch a bit). By becoming mobile, Duran creates a target for Walker. Yes he's smart and he's also quick, but Duran isn't a bike fighter, he's not mobile enough that he can't be caught - he needs that equaliser in the bank, that ability to upset the man from whom he flees as he comes in. He's not Leonard is basically what i'm trying to say, he can't use mobility alone to keep him out of trouble.

You've spoken about Walker's wider punches. Again we agree this is the case. But it is off less importance when Walker has a retreating target to aim multiple shots at. Walker will not tire. If he is able to fire at the end of the Greb/Schmeling fights he will be able to fire for 15 here (With no much bigger man sapping his strength).

The combination of big, hurtful, winging punches occasionally catching Duran, what follows these and the dominance he would enjoy in the short lived clinches added to his position as aggressor would bring him enough on the cards to win this fight.

In Duran's two definitive stoppage losses...Hearns blitzed him with breathtaking speed and power (at junior middle). Does Walker have that kind of speed or power? I don't think so...Joppy? Duran was closer to fifty than forty for that fight...nuff said.

I agree, these losses are not relevant.

However I would just add that I consider Mickey the second best offensive machine that Duran would have taken on behind only Hearns and the best fighter that Duran would have ever faced.



Walker would have to do what you stated, he'd have to grind Duran down. That of coarse is predicated on his being able to find Duran on a consistant enough basis to accomplish this...Duran never lost in this manner ever...never mind close to his prime.

But whom did he fight close to prime who could have been expected to do such a thing? Only Hagler. Hagler has often been criticised for not being aggressive enough in that fight. Walker is a pure march forward killing machine, he has the perfect style to beat Duran. He can play either game (though I think that the strategy you are suggesting actually suits Walker better).

Duran would engage Walker, and it would be a tremendous fight...but Duran's mobility allows him to choose when and how he engages.

I've thoroughly enjoyed what you've said about Duran, you're a fine analyst. But this is a little naive. Walker is an expert at forcing the action, absolutley expert.

I will say - if this is true (about Duran picking and chosing) Roberto would indeed be the winner. But I just don't see it that way.

Even at close range, wouldn't Duran be effective enough to spin and gain angles with Walker?

I think abosolutely he would. In my opinion he would not do this often enough to win enough rounds to take the fight.

Does Walker possess the footspeed to track down Duran, and hurt him to the point of a stoppage? Nothing in Walker's welterweight record would support him being able to accomplish this against one of the best all time.
I maintain it's Duran by decision.

It has certainly not been proven to me that only Walker's WW record is worthy of consideration as regards predicting an outcome here. As I see it:

Walker is expert in forcing the action.

Walker is the puncher in the fight.

Duran cannot hit hard enough to discourage Walker (nor can Schmeling).

Walker cannot be stopped by Duran.

Walker will win.


Feel free to come back or we can agree to disagree, but what about Walker v Robinson?

Everyone is invited to speculate, of course.

[Stonehands89]

I'm beginning to think of it as one of his best actually! I remember the first time I saw it I was kind of dissapionted...it grows you, I think you've described why perfectly.
That match-up is a thinking man's bout. Everyone thought it was going to be warfare, but it wasn't. It was a chess match.

He always got hit, just normally not clean. In addition i can't find a definitive ruling on what caused the cut - it was so bad that Walker couldn't actually see so if i'm honest it sounds like heads to me. But that IS speculation.
Walker and Duran have similar ring personas for the causal fan -both are considered alley warriors. But they had a vast array of subtle skills that are hidden in all that aggression.

So is your comment conerning fighting dehydrated though!
If Walker did suffer a butt in that bout, okay, but your comments about Walker being there to be hit doesn't help your argument. Duran, you seem to be conceding, was defensively superior. He could punch at WW and would land on Mickey more than Mickey would land on him.

I don't think that Walker was so easily hittable as the press suggested, do you?

Regardless it doesn't matter, once again - Walker was not a WW for the Dundee fight. He was over by one or two pounds.
...okay. That only further confirms the argument here. Walker missed the WW limit by a pound and obviously had trouble making it. I hold that he was too drained and weakened at WW to have enough to defeat Montreal Duran. He aged out of that division in no time.

By the way, just to demonstrate consistency, I'd choose Gomez and Barrera over Duran at Superbantam.

[dpw417]

:lol:

Yeah. Walker was crazy.




I think that Duran is actually perfectly capable of meeting Walker in the ring and using smarts and speed to try to get the better of the violent confrontations that each round would bring. This is how I would advise Duran to fight, allowing for that step out if things are going badly/if he needs a bit of a rest.




Duran is more mobile. But I think using that mobility would be a mistake in this fight.

Walker is impossible to discourage. He is coming forward, Duran cannot hit him hard enough to make him think twice, I am convinced of this (although we agree Duran can punch a bit). By becoming mobile, Duran creates a target for Walker. Yes he's smart and he's also quick, but Duran isn't a bike fighter, he's not mobile enough that he can't be caught - he needs that equaliser in the bank, that ability to upset the man from whom he flees as he comes in. He's not Leonard is basically what i'm trying to say, he can't use mobility alone to keep him out of trouble.

You've spoken about Walker's wider punches. Again we agree this is the case. But it is off less importance when Walker has a retreating target to aim multiple shots at. Walker will not tire. If he is able to fire at the end of the Greb/Schmeling fights he will be able to fire for 15 here (With no much bigger man sapping his strength).

The combination of big, hurtful, winging punches occasionally catching Duran, what follows these and the dominance he would enjoy in the short lived clinches added to his position as aggressor would bring him enough on the cards to win this fight.



I agree, these losses are not relevant.

However I would just add that I consider Mickey the second best offensive machine that Duran would have taken on behind only Hearns and the best fighter that Duran would have ever faced.





But whom did he fight close to prime who could have been expected to do such a thing? Only Hagler. Hagler has often been criticised for not being aggressive enough in that fight. Walker is a pure march forward killing machine, he has the perfect style to beat Duran. He can play either game (though I think that the strategy you are suggesting actually suits Walker better).



I've thoroughly enjoyed what you've said about Duran, you're a fine analyst. But this is a little naive. Walker is an expert at forcing the action, absolutley expert.

I will say - if this is true (about Duran picking and chosing) Roberto would indeed be the winner. But I just don't see it that way.



I think abosolutely he would. In my opinion he would not do this often enough to win enough rounds to take the fight.



It has certainly not been proven to me that only Walker's WW record is worthy of consideration as regards predicting an outcome here. As I see it:

Walker is expert in forcing the action.

Walker is the puncher in the fight.

Duran cannot hit hard enough to discourage Walker (nor can Schmeling).

Walker cannot be stopped by Duran.

Walker will win.


Feel free to come back or we can agree to disagree, but what about Walker v Robinson?

Everyone is invited to speculate, of course.
We can agree to disagree. But I want to chat about a few points first...I agree with 4 out of five of your closing points.
I agree.
-Given his experience Walker would be an expert at forcing the fight.
-Walker is the puncher in the fight.
-Walker cannot be stopped by Duran.
-Walker cannot be discouraged in this fight. (That's what makes him special)

I should have clarified this re Duran's mobility...I wasn't implying Duran would attempt to emulate Ray Leonard with his movement (I've never seen Duran fight in that manner...I didn't think I'd have to explain that but there it is.) What I meant was Duran would be relatively close to Walker looking for opportunities to counter Walker and his wider punches, mobility in this case, would be the ability to get punching room and slide on angles, instead of meeting the bull like Walker in a straight line...I believe the openings would be there for Duran. Benny Leonard was a very mobile fighter, not just in a sense of 'getting on the bike', Leonard would use his opponent's momentum against him,a push on the shoulder,or back for positioning for an angle to attack...Duran also did this...and he had it down to a science. A 'sweet' science.
It's true that Duran wouldn't discourage Walker, not with Mickey's mindset. But Duran would be scoring more than Walker in the exchanges IMO...I'll stay with my position that Duran is the more refined defensive fighter.
I no longer see your assertion that Walker wins by KO(?)
When you state that Walker is a 'pure march forward killing machine', it sounds as though you are the one being a little naive.With all due respect (I sincerely mean that, this is a fun thread...Thanks to you!) Do you think that Walker is just going to cruise through one of the best all round fighters in history? Throw nonstop punches for a solid fifteen rounds, shake off everything Duran throws at him with sheer impunity? and then never gets tired? C'mon! I'm not buying that at all! This is a very close fight in my book. That goes against all logic, in the consideration of these fighters, their respective fights against great competition, and their regarded place in history. Both would clearly feel the effects of this fight!
Is Walker the second best offensive fighter Duran has ever faced? That is debatable, not necessarily from a sheer power standpoint, but from a standpoint of fluidity and speed...Duran faced some excellent speed and combination punchers...He has seen speed, technique, and yes power, throughtout his career...and was again, very adept in dealing with those opponents from a defensive standpoint. Is Walker more of an offensive threat than Ray Leonard? Ray is not regarded as a tremendous puncher, but with his power and speed, he is formidible. Ray stopped his opponents in his biggest fights at the welterweight limit. Did Walker manage to do that? Walker's opponents were not tougher than Leonard's I'm certain.
I do feel with Walker's aggressiveness and punch output, he can and will give Duran hell...but could he maintain that while getting hit more often...The main factor that Duran has over Walker is his defensive ability...the bottom line is that he will score more blows. He isn't able to discourage Walker one iota...but he does outpoint him. IMO.
McGrain, this has been fun...and thank you for being such a good sport for hashing and rehashing this with Stonehands and myself. If you want to continue with this, I'm game...Otherwise we'll agree to disagree.
Cheers! :good

[janitor]

Walker is a hard minded, never say die competitor who would not quit to save his life! He told Kearns after the Schmeling torture,"You're the one who quit Doc, NOT ME!"...This is who Duran is facing...


One little detail that not a lot of people know.

Schmeling threatened to quit in the last round if the reff did not stop the fight.

He was afraid he might kill Walker.

Years later he was a guest at the Louis Farr title fight. Various champions were lined up for the usual roll call. Schmeling walked past Jack Sharkey, Max Baer, Tommy Loughran and others, right up to Mickey Walker and shook his hand.

[janitor]

If he's not, why not?

The question is too complex for a yes or no answer.

Walker clearly did things that no other welterweight champion came close to outside of Barbados Joe Walcott. He beat most of the top heavyweights of the period and was ranked No4 at heavyweight when he met Schmeling. He held former heavyweight champion Jack Sharkey to a draw. In his next fight Sharkey would beat Primo Carnera.

I dont think that Robinson or Leonard could have done what Walker did.

On the flip side Walker outgrew the welterweight division fairly young and that should be taken into acount:

A. When matching him at welterweight with other ATGs.
B. When ranking him at welterweight.

Personaly I consider Walker a clear cut top 5 all time welterweight.

[McGrain]

I don't think that Walker was so easily hittable as the press suggested, do you?

"To hit"? Yes, I do. Not clean though.


...okay. That only further confirms the argument here. Walker missed the WW limit by a pound and obviously had trouble making it.

As far as I am aware the fight wasn't made at the WW limit and Walker could have come in at whatever. So not really.

By the way, just to demonstrate consistency, I'd choose Gomez and Barrera over Duran at Superbantam.

A little fascecious my friend. Walker was world champion at welterweight.

[McGrain]

I should have clarified this re Duran's mobility...I wasn't implying Duran would attempt to emulate Ray Leonard with his movement (I've never seen Duran fight in that manner...I didn't think I'd have to explain that but there it is.)

Certainly you don't have to explain it and I didn't feel that you had implied it.

It's true that Duran wouldn't discourage Walker, not with Mickey's mindset. But Duran would be scoring more than Walker in the exchanges IMO...I'll stay with my position that Duran is the more refined defensive fighter.

This may be a scoring problem.

To my knowledge no era exsists where judges scored "refined defensive" fighting. Walker has aggression on his side. He has flashier punching on his side. He will score the heavier shots, if there is a KD it will be him that scores it, if a round is totallly dominated it will be by him etc etc etc it's hard for me to envisage what Duran's superior defence might bring him in this fight actually...certainly not a KO and not a points win.

I no longer see your assertion that Walker wins by KO(?)

Well, as Sweet Pea pointed out I was totally gubbed at the time of that post. But put it this way - it is possible for Walker to score a ko over Duran (perfect body shot, worried ref), yes, it is not possible for Duran to score a ko, not under any circumstances in my view.

Do you think that Walker is just going to cruise through one of the best all round fighters in history?

Absolutley not! I don't know what it is that i've posted that makes you think i've disrespected Duran (my all time #9 after all) to this degree!

Throw nonstop punches for a solid fifteen rounds, shake off everything Duran throws at him with sheer impunity?

Perhaps it is you who are underestimating Duran. Yes, I think all of this is true. Yes, I think Duran is competitive in this enviroment.

Is Walker more of an offensive threat than Ray Leonard? Ray is not regarded as a tremendous puncher, but with his power and speed, he is formidible. Ray stopped his opponents in his biggest fights at the welterweight limit. Did Walker manage to do that? Walker's opponents were not tougher than Leonard's I'm certain.

Walker is the better offensive threat then Leonard, yes. Of course! And nor is Walker seen as a "tremendous puncher" in my view, rather he is powerful, quick, makes excellent angles/conditions, punches in high volume, moves well between body and head, punches beautifully to the body, has wonderful timing...what is it in Leonard's punching that you see that makes it superior to Walker's in any way? I suggest that if you deconstruct technique as opposed to paper analysis the question is not a serious one.

I suggest that if you limit yourself only to paper resume Walker proves to be by far the superior puncher.

I suggest that only if you restrict yourself purely to paper and purely to one weight division you find yourself able to compare Leonard to Walker without appearing ridiculous.

I do feel with Walker's aggressiveness and punch output, he can and will give Duran hell...but could he maintain that while getting hit more often...

Well he was perfectly able to maintain his punch output against Schmeling, Wright and Sharkey, men who would KO1 Duran 100/100, so my guess would be "yes".

The main factor that Duran has over Walker is his defensive ability...the bottom line is that he will score more blows. He isn't able to discourage Walker one iota...but he does outpoint him. IMO.
McGrain, this has been fun...and thank you for being such a good sport for hashing and rehashing this with Stonehands and myself. If you want to continue with this, I'm game...Otherwise we'll agree to disagree.
Cheers! :good

Always a pleasure to talk it out with such a well informed poster :good

[Stonehands89]

"To hit"? Yes, I do. Not clean though.
We agree here more or less.

As far as I am aware the fight wasn't made at the WW limit and Walker could have come in at whatever. So not really.
Thus our contention. It's been noted.

A little fascecious my friend. Walker was world champion at welterweight.
It was a point of logic. I do not think that WW Walker was "Walker enough" if you will, to deal with Duran. South of LW, Duran was not yet "Duran enough" to cross swords with the lighter greats.

[McGrain]

It was a point of logic. I do not think that WW Walker was "Walker enough" if you will, to deal with Duran. South of LW, Duran was not yet "Duran enough" to cross swords with the lighter greats.

It is an interesting theory and probably not unreasonable.

[godking]

If he's not, why not? He must be close. Sugar Ray Robinson is the usual shout. I'm always banging on about Charley Burley & sometimes a drunk or Holmes' Jab will try to force Leonard on you, but nobody seems to mention Walker....

His chin must be considered granite at the weight. Guys like Schmeling and Smith KO'd him but they were massive by comparison - and Walker's HW resume is actually not to bad! Fram Cyberboxing Zone:

"Against men who weighed more than 20lbs more than him his record was 10-1-2"

He has wins over much bigger pure boxers including Maxie Rosenbloom at light heavy, battered heavyweight contender Uzcudan to defeat and fought that famous draw with Jack Sharkey - is he on your top 50 HW's list? Because i'm pretty sure he'd make mine. The guy was capable of hustling much bigger pure boxers to defeat (though he lost some of these fights too) and could also outfight giants with whom he really had no business in the first place.

So my question is - what type of Welterweight would it take to beat a peak Mikey Walker? The great puncher or the great boxer? Because he beat much bigger versions of both.

WOuldn't he beat more great welterweights than any other great welterweights?

Is it possible to see him failing to win at least one of three against any WW in history?what was his record against good WW what did he achieve at WW.

He does not get a top spot at WW because of his record against fighters in other divisions

[McGrain]

He does not get a top spot at WW because of his record against fighters in other divisions

Why not?

We can learn NOTHING relevant about Walker at WW by studying Walker weighing 152? Of course we can.

[godking]

Why not?

We can learn NOTHING relevant about Walker at WW by studying Walker weighing 152? Of course we can.What did Walker do at WW ?.

Fighters earn their Rankings in the division that they fought based on cold hard facts about what they did in that division.

What did Walker do at WW to deserve being number 1 H2H ?

[McGrain]

Fighters earn their Rankings in the division that they fought based on cold hard facts about what they did in that division?

Well we disagree, and that is all.

Burley was never WW champion. He was never allowed to fight Zivic as champ, Robinson or Armstrong which were both his contempories. So he "did" less than Miguel Cotto has done.

Burley destroys him head to head and is rated above him head to head.