Moore's strategy in the Marciano fight

[Street Lethal]

Moore is either circling to his left on purpose or allowing Marciano to maneuver him to the path of Marciano's right hand. It seems like Archie is either trying to avoid the left hook or pull Marciano into his own right hand or both. Moore does catch Marciano with the right and Marciano misses lots of left hooks, but Moore is right in the path of Marciano's money punch. Why didn't Moore circle to Marciano's left? He could have stayed out of Marciano's range and then use his educated left to keep Marciano off balance. Rocky would have had to lunge and Moore could have caught him coming in (which he did a lot, but he could have done it even more). I think Moore made a big mistake here.

Moore slugs with Marciano when hurt. Why didn't Moore clinch more? Did he want to draw Marciano into a slugging match? He was hitting Marciano often, but Marciano could take those shots and his youth and stamina allowed him to keep going whereas Moore would fade. Archie's instincts were good in the exchanges, but his reflexes were slow. He seemed to be mistiming Rocky's rhythm and as a result he was getting clocked. This was another of Moore's big mistake.

Maybe this has already been discussed here, but do people think that had Moore circled to Marciano's left and had tied Rocky up more that he could have outpointed Marciano? I think he would have lasted longer in the fight, but I am not sure I think he could have one. What do you think?

[Street Lethal]

I think he would have lasted longer in the fight, but I am not sure I think he could have one. What do you think?

Whoops. I meant to write "not sure he could have WON."

Does anybody have an opinion on this? Archie Moore is one of my favorite boxers ever and it would have been great if he had been the one to hand Marciano his first or only defeat. I don't know if he could have, but I think he would have given himself more of a chance had he fought the fight differently.

If it's a boring question that's cool.

[McGrain]

Well you get a glimpse of what Moore has to offer in the 2nd, Rocky throws a big right and Moore counters with the uppercut.

I think that Moore knew he couldn't win a long fight - he claims to be 42 for this one (he was probably slightly younger) and he was in with maybe the fittest big man ever - so he needed action and early. Marciano looks a little bit tentative in 1 which would have made Moore even more anxious to get things rolling.

I scored the first 3 rounds to Moore, so in my opinion his stratagy was a good one. It may have been that a younger Moore could have sustained this pace, though it seems unlikely.

[djb2009]

moore could never beat rocky

[hdog]

I was watching Moore- Durelle I last night and noticed the kind of funny looking punch that dropped Marciano is the same punch that started Durelle's demise in the 11th.

I agree that Marciano loked tentative in the beginning. Perhaps he was trying to outboxing Moore. Looks like in the 4th he decided to started winging punches til he hit something.

[Duodenum]

Each time we see Moore on the deck after a knockdown, his torso is heaving with exertion. Those knockdowns weren't taking place because Rocky was beating Archie senseless, they were attrition knockdowns. (If the Ali of the Foreman match tried rope-a-doping with Rocky, he would have gotten killed!) As many punches as Marciano missed with Moore pinned on the ropes, there was simply no way Archie would get Rocky to wear himself out. His best chance came when he floored Marciano with the hardest scoring punch of his career (and, believe it or hot, very possibly the hardest single scoring punch ever landed in a Marciano fight, if as Tiger Ted Lowry stated, Moore, and not Marciano, was the hardest puncher he ever fought). Archie's punch of a career only resulted in a momentary touch to the deck. (Nobody ever knocked Rocky on his back.)

Moore claimed that Harry Kessler's illegal standing eight count of Marciano after he stood back up cost Archie his chance to win the title, but I don't buy it. Walcott was punching the shit out of Rocky, but couldn't land him again after flooring Marciano with his first round hook. Jersey Joe tried mightily to blast the Rock out early, and failed. No, there was no possibilty of Archie Moore defeating Marciano in that match.

When the Mongoose graduated to that ring in the sky, three clips from his career were shown on news and sportscasts. The first was his KD of Marciano (which surprised an awful lot of folks who were somehow under the impression that Rocky had never been decked). The other two clips were of Yvon Durelle flooring Archie (with what Moore said was the hardest punch he was ever hit by), and the Mongoose coming back to flatten Durelle for the count. Not a bad way for a boxing career to be encapsulated in memoriam. That he dropped the mighty and invincible Brockton Blockbuster down to his knees for just an instant is good enough for me.

[hdog]

Thanks for the Ted Lowry statement. I said in another thread that I thought Moore looked like the harder puncher of the two. Marciano, although quickly up was still hurt for a little while. Never looked hurt after that that, however.

Moore's contention the ref cost him the fight is ridiculous. The count went to four, the ref barely wiped his gloves (didn't yank them to revive Rocky like I think Moore said) and the fight continued.

Marciano's flurry after he knocked moore down in the 6th was crazy.

[Duodenum]

Thanks for the Ted Lowry statement. I said in another thread that I thought Moore looked like the harder puncher of the two. Marciano, although quickly up was still hurt for a little while. Never looked hurt after that that, however.

Moore's contention the ref cost him the fight is ridiculous. The count went to four, the ref barely wiped his gloves (didn't yank them to revive Rocky like I think Moore said) and the fight continued.

Marciano's flurry after he knocked moore down in the 6th was crazy.Archie's comments about Rocky immediately after their war was telling. "He is the strongest man I have ever boxed. I don't know that he's the hardest hitter, but he certainly hits hard enough." Marciano was the one with hands of stone before "Rocky" Duran came along to dethrone Buchanan. But as hard as Marciano could punch, his imperviousness exceeded his force. (Marciano vs Marciano would have gone the 15 round distance. He was that tough!)

[hdog]

Did Marciano look a little distressed in his corner after the 2nd round to you? Kept trying to wipe his gloves on Columbo or something. Maybe I'm making a bigger deal about it than there was but it looked like something was bothering him.

[Stonehands89]

I own a vintage, pocket sixed "Sports" magazine that came out in early 1955 -in it, Archie Moore reveals how he is going to dethrone Marciano. He is adamant about it and relies on geometry and some arcane stuff. I am sure that he applied these principles as best he could, but let's remember that Archie was an inventive verbalist who delighted in confusing people.

After the loss, Moore was asked what had happened to his grand strategy. He replied something to the effect of "Marciano's right hand".

[Street Lethal]

The ref did give Marciano too much time to recover under the rules of the day. As soon as Rocky stood up, the rules at the time state that the ref should have wiped Marciano's gloves off and wave the two back into combat. The referee is still counting even after Rocky is upright.

I don't see the right hand that drops him as an uppercut. It looks like a straight right hand counter. But that's just a small thing.

Moore is winded after the first round. It wasn't his best night.

But what I am asking about is strategy. Did Moore use the right strategy? I don't think he did.

[McGrain]

moore could never beat rocky

Given that Moore gave Rocky a fight at that late stage of his career, this is a pretty rash statement, though I'd conceed you could be right.

[McGrain]

I agree that Marciano loked tentative in the beginning. Perhaps he was trying to outboxing Moore. Looks like in the 4th he decided to started winging punches til he hit something.

I think you are spot on.

I beleive Marciano was nervous about taking on Moore - a clever, clever boxer. Of course, Marciano wasn't a dummy, but let's agree that though he was a good ring general, he also suffered from the "one thing done very well" disease.

I think he was looking for Moore to tire and was disturbed by how Moore performed in the first 3 rounds.

[McGrain]

I own a vintage, pocket sixed "Sports" magazine that came out in early 1955 -in it, Archie Moore reveals how he is going to dethrone Marciano. He is adamant about it and relies on geometry and some arcane stuff. I am sure that he applied these principles as best he could, but let's remember that Archie was an inventive verbalist who delighted in confusing people.

This is the pertenant point - if Moore had eff all in the way of a plan, he would still nod and wink.

[john garfield]

The ref did give Marciano too much time to recover under the rules of the day. As soon as Rocky stood up, the rules at the time state that the ref should have wiped Marciano's gloves off and wave the two back into combat. The referee is still counting even after Rocky is upright.

I don't see the right hand that drops him as an uppercut. It looks like a straight right hand counter. But that's just a small thing.

Moore is winded after the first round. It wasn't his best night.

But what I am asking about is strategy. Did Moore use the right strategy? I don't think he did.

I see your reasoning, SL, but there's and old expression: 'It's hard to remember that your primary goal was to drain the swamp, when you're hip deep in alligators'

[hdog]

The ref did give Marciano too much time to recover under the rules of the day. As soon as Rocky stood up, the rules at the time state that the ref should have wiped Marciano's gloves off and wave the two back into combat. The referee is still counting even after Rocky is upright.

I don't see the right hand that drops him as an uppercut. It looks like a straight right hand counter. But that's just a small thing.

Moore is winded after the first round. It wasn't his best night.

But what I am asking about is strategy. Did Moore use the right strategy? I don't think he did.

I'm not sure but I think the ref picks up the timekeeper's count which went to four. And Marciano stepped away so the ref went to him. Think Moore claimed the ref gave him an eight-count and yanked his gloves. I agree it was a straight right just thrown downward somewhat. The punch used to puzzle me until I saw him hit Durelle with it.


I noticed Moore got a couple of extra seconds after his first knockdown in the 6th.

As far as strategy, I can't see Moore fighting any differently. Moving to his right would have been a defensive move and he wouldn't have been move all night, Marciano was gonna force him back. On the ropes Moore is a master at rolling and countering problem was he facing a buzzsaw.

[Bummy Davis]

Moore tried to stay clear of Rocky's Killer right and walked into his underated hook which was equal to the right but it often came in 2's and Moore was also dropped by rocky's Sledgehammer punch the chopping right, other than the flash K.D. in the 2nd, Rocky dominated Moore

[Street Lethal]

I see your reasoning, SL, but there's and old expression: 'It's hard to remember that your primary goal was to drain the swamp, when you're hip deep in alligators'

I have never heard that expression before. Good one. That's an apt description of the experience of fighting Marciano. He was a buzzsaw that threw a lot of great fighters off their game.

[Street Lethal]

I noticed Moore got a couple of extra seconds after his first knockdown in the 6th.

I noticed that too.

[Marciano Frazier]

Moore is either circling to his left on purpose or allowing Marciano to maneuver him to the path of Marciano's right hand. It seems like Archie is either trying to avoid the left hook or pull Marciano into his own right hand or both. Moore does catch Marciano with the right and Marciano misses lots of left hooks, but Moore is right in the path of Marciano's money punch. Why didn't Moore circle to Marciano's left? He could have stayed out of Marciano's range and then use his educated left to keep Marciano off balance. Rocky would have had to lunge and Moore could have caught him coming in (which he did a lot, but he could have done it even more). I think Moore made a big mistake here.

Moore slugs with Marciano when hurt. Why didn't Moore clinch more? Did he want to draw Marciano into a slugging match? He was hitting Marciano often, but Marciano could take those shots and his youth and stamina allowed him to keep going whereas Moore would fade. Archie's instincts were good in the exchanges, but his reflexes were slow. He seemed to be mistiming Rocky's rhythm and as a result he was getting clocked. This was another of Moore's big mistake.

Maybe this has already been discussed here, but do people think that had Moore circled to Marciano's left and had tied Rocky up more that he could have outpointed Marciano? I think he would have lasted longer in the fight, but I am not sure I think he could have one. What do you think? I'm not positive exactly why he was doing what he was doing, but the man was one of the most experienced fighters in history and had close to 200 pro bouts under his belt with literally dozens against future champs and Hall-of-Famers, and was one of the greatest boxing masters the sport has ever seen, so I expect he knew what he was doing, and I think it would be a little pretentious to think that I know better than him what he should have done.

And no, Moore was not going to win that fight. You're misrepresenting the content of the match- Marciano won nearly every round aside from the second, in which he suffered a balance flash-knockdown, floored Moore four times and was plainly head and shoulders the better man. Moore circling the other way, even if it were a more advisable strategy, isn't going to reverse a gap like that.

[Marciano Frazier]

I think that Moore knew he couldn't win a long fight - he claims to be 42 for this one (he was probably slightly younger) and he was in with maybe the fittest big man ever - so he needed action and early. Marciano looks a little bit tentative in 1 which would have made Moore even more anxious to get things rolling.
Actually, Moore claimed to be 38. It was his mother whose timeline had him at 42 at that time.

[Marciano Frazier]

His best chance came when he floored Marciano with the hardest scoring punch of his career (and, believe it or hot, very possibly the hardest single scoring punch ever landed in a Marciano fight, if as Tiger Ted Lowry stated, Moore, and not Marciano, was the hardest puncher he ever fought). Archie's punch of a career only resulted in a momentary touch to the deck. (Nobody ever knocked Rocky on his back.)
You can't reasonably establish that Moore likely hit harder than Marciano on the basis of only one opponent's opinion/experience- for example, Larry Holmes says Ken Norton and Gerry Cooney hit him harder than Tyson, and(I believe it was) Oliver McCall claimed that Buster Douglas hits harder than Lewis or Tyson. There have been numerous instances in which common opponents have contradicted each other about who hit harder between two given fighters. George Foreman has claimed at various times that Ron Lyle, Gerry Cooney and at least one other opponent hit him the hardest- Marciano also couldn't seem to make up his mind. Based on their careers, I think it's fairly clear Marciano hit harder than Moore.

Moore claimed that Harry Kessler's illegal standing eight count of Marciano after he stood back up cost Archie his chance to win the title, but I don't buy it.
Kessler didn't give Marciano a standing-eight count(in fact, you can find any number of delays after knockdowns longer than that one from the same era about which no funny business was claimed), and Marciano was in no serious trouble, so yes, this is a bit of tall-tale baloney on Moore's part.

When the Mongoose graduated to that ring in the sky, three clips from his career were shown on news and sportscasts. The first was his KD of Marciano (which surprised an awful lot of folks who were somehow under the impression that Rocky had never been decked).
When you've only been decked once in 48 professional fights, of course it's a surprise if you go down.

The other two clips were of Yvon Durelle flooring Archie (with what Moore said was the hardest punch he was ever hit by), and the Mongoose coming back to flatten Durelle for the count. Not a bad way for a boxing career to be encapsulated in memoriam. That he dropped the mighty and invincible Brockton Blockbuster down to his knees for just an instant is good enough for me.
Personally, I think that, say, a clip or two from his heroic title fight with Johnson would have been better-suited. The Marciano knockdown is famous, but too much is made of it- it was just a flash two-count as a result of an off-balance lunge by Rocky and a powerful, perfectly-timed counter by Moore. Nothing to scoff at, but Moore had far more glorious moments in his career than that.

[Mendoza]

I think Moore’s strategy was to counter Marciano in the fight. Marciano swung and missed badly at times. Moore landed some good counter shots. Moore’s main problem in the fight was his stamina was not as good as Rocky’s was. Rocky was the type of fighter who kept the pressure on. Rocky’s style that forced fighting accelerated the loss of Moore’s stamina.

In hindsight, Moore should have clinched and slowed the pace down a bit more. He could have used his jab more often too. Moore is known as a smart and crafty fighter, but he certainly did not fight this way vs Rocky. Part of it had to do with Rocky dictating the pace. Part of it had to do with Moore’s tactics.

[Duodenum]

You can't reasonably establish that Moore likely hit harder than Marciano on the basis of only one opponent's opinion/experienceTrue, but I'm not basing that on only one opponent's expressed opinion/experience. Moore himself stated immediately after his match with Marciano that, "He's the strongest boxer I ever fought. I don't know that he is the hardest hitter, but he certainly hits hard enough." It's intriguing to me that the Mongoose would express some doubt about the supremacy of punching power from an adversary who he had a warm relationship with, at the time they'd just competed against each other. After his career was over, Archie definitively asserted that the first right hand Yvon Durelle floored him with in their initial meeting was indeed that hardest punch he ever took in his career.

To be sure, Rocky had more than sufficient power for his needs. But two highly qualified and experienced opponents of Rocky have both stated that he was not the man who hit them the hardest. One opinion could perhaps be readily dismissed, but such a confluence of feedback on this subject as Lowry's and Moore's can give one more pause for thought.

Marciano himself indicated that he felt his two knockout punches against Walcott were the hardest punches he ever connected with.

[Duodenum]

I think Moore’s strategy was to counter Marciano in the fight. Marciano swung and missed badly at times. Moore landed some good counter shots. Moore’s main problem in the fight was his stamina was not as good as Rocky’s was. Rocky was the type of fighter who kept the pressure on. Rocky’s style that forced fighting accelerated the loss of Moore’s stamina.

In hindsight, Moore should have clinched and slowed the pace down a bit more. He could have used his jab more often too. Moore is known as a smart and crafty fighter, but he certainly did not fight this way vs Rocky. Part of it had to do with Rocky dictating the pace. Part of it had to do with Moore’s tactics.The next year, Moore was dreadful against Floyd Patterson. Perhaps the idea of going for the heavyweight title psyched him out. Archie could never get by Ezzard Charles either, so maybe there was some sort of mental block which undermined him in these situations. (There was simply no way he could have ever beaten Marciano though. But I would have expected him to kayo the chinny and inexperienced Patterson.)

[Mendoza]

The next year, Moore was dreadful against Floyd Patterson. Perhaps the idea of going for the heavyweight title psyched him out. Archie could never get by Ezzard Charles either, so maybe there was some sort of mental block which undermined him in these situations. (There was simply no way he could have ever beaten Marciano though. But I would have expected him to kayo the chinny and inexperienced Patterson.)

While I would pick Marciano over Moore, if the fight had happened a few years eariler, Moore would have a real shot for the upset.

[Duodenum]

While I would pick Marciano over Moore, if the fight had happened a few years eariler, Moore would have a real shot for the upset.Is there any particular performance in Archie's long and storied career, where he showed especially good potential to upset Rocky, if Marciano had been Moore's competition for that same match, instead of whoever Archie actually boxed?

[john garfield]

Is there any particular performance in Archie's long and storied career, where he showed especially good potential to upset Rocky, if Marciano had been Moore's competition for that same match, instead of whoever Archie actually boxed?

Funny, D, you clearly feel very strongly about Rocky -- as I do -- but guaranteed, had you seen him spar, you'd have hocked every earthly possession and put it on Moore. Rocky was a horrendous gym fighter.

[Street Lethal]

It seemed like Moore was tired early. I think it's possible that he came in flat (the way he described his perfomance against Patterson) and decided to just mix it Marciano and counter right (it worked once, didn't it?). But I still believe he would have been more successful had he circled to his right. He would have had Marciano lunging and out of position. He could slip the hook (which he did effectively) and counter with the right uppercut from Marciano's left side (the way Tyson often did).

I don't believe Marciano was better than Moore. The age difference cannot be exaggerated. Moore was a marvel, and he was beating big heavyweights (like Valdes), but against the buzzsaw, he was just too old to hold up. He timing was a bit off as he tired. I think had Marciano met a younger Moore things might have been different.

[Street Lethal]

Funny, D, you clearly feel very strongly about Rocky -- as I do -- but guaranteed, had you seen him spar, you'd have hocked every earthly possession and put it on Moore. Rocky was a horrendous gym fighter.

I've heard this before. So you saw him spar?!

[john garfield]

I've heard this before. So you saw him spar?!

At Stillman's Gym and when he was in camp at Grossingers and Kutchers in the Catskill Mountains.

[Duodenum]

Funny, D, you clearly feel very strongly about Rocky -- as I do -- but guaranteed, had you seen him spar, you'd have hocked every earthly possession and put it on Moore. Rocky was a horrendous gym fighter.Reading Skehan's biography on Marciano had something to do with that, as did the fact that I then viewed Murray Woroner's filmed performance between Marciano and Ali twice on late night TV.

When Hagler was Middleweight Champ, my sister worked at a law firm representing him in Boston, and they were on a first name basis. Through the Petronelli's the link between Marciano and Hagler becomes very close in New England.

Given his dedication to conditioning (thanks to his disastrous amateur deput), it is kind of ironic that he was such a dreadful gym fighter. But he absolutely made the most of his ability, and being a more regular sized and regular looking guy (as well as one who stayed true to his roots), it's hardly surprising that his story would resonate as it does with average fight fans.

My understanding is that Charley Goldman was always careful to make sure that he was comfortable with his positioning through much of the training process, not trying to force him into a form mold he didn't naturally fit.

I have their book on boxing and bodybuilding, but I can't say I was particularly impressed by it. (Dempsey's "Championship Fighting" blows the doors off of any instructional book I've encountered by a prominent pugilist.)

From what I've read of Rocky's sparring sessions with Cesar Brion, he needed to be a lousy gym fighter just to get sparring mates in the ring with him.

Winning ugly is something most of us can identify with.

Listening to Moore, and reading what he wrote, I probably would have hocked every earthly possession I had, and put it on Moore to beat young Cassius Clay! (Unless I listened to Archie wearing earplugs, and was reading his writings with a blindfold!)

[Stonehands89]

It seemed like Moore was tired early. I think it's possible that he came in flat (the way he described his perfomance against Patterson) and decided to just mix it Marciano and counter right (it worked once, didn't it?)...

I don't believe Marciano was better than Moore. The age difference cannot be exaggerated. Moore was a marvel, and he was beating big heavyweights (like Valdes), but against the buzzsaw, he was just too old to hold up. He timing was a bit off as he tired. I think had Marciano met a younger Moore things might have been different.
Your analysis is sound and it tells me that you know your stuff.

Moore was interviewed (SI, '55) before the fight and his strategy against Marciano relied on two things that he illustrated at length and that he practiced in the bout. The first was the jab. He did not believe that Marciano was capable of dealing with the jab and argued that Ezzard did not employ it enough. Ezzard "pushed" his jab. Marciano was "very deliberate"... "Everything's deliberate, see one punch, then another. Charles didn't jab that man."

Moore said plainly that he will jab hell out of him.

...The problem here was that Rocky accepted the jab. Before fighting Walcott Marciano decided that he had no answer for it except to just take it. And he did. By the Moore fight, An adjustment was made... Marciano weaved very low and when Moore jabbed, he got the top of Marciano's head. Moore was hoping to knock him off balance with the jab but I think that this failed because Marciano fought in a crouch and leaned forward. Trauma to the face, yes, but he wasn't in the position to be knocked off balance. Marciano relied very, very much on leverage -whether he was giving or taking shots without losing balance.

Both Cheerful Norman (Moore's trainer) and Archie believed that Rocky survived as champion because he had not been subjected to the "cumulative destruction of of a series of good blows." So Moore was going to blast him with combinations... now in retrospect, this seems unwise but Moore was also convinced -absolutely convinced that he himself was stronger than any heavyweight. He said "Nobody's been stronger than me in there. He might be bigger and heavier, but he ain't no stronger."

Now if you see the first round, you see Moore jabbing and when Marciano bores and burrows in, Moore meets him and tests him. Meanwhile, Marciano does what Marciano does. He pounds in good investments. That sweet counter right in round 2 gave him false confidence. No one beats Rocky in a war of attrition. No one. It took Moore a while to calculate that he is taking too much and that he is not stronger than Rocco, but by that time, he was worn out. You can see him fight smarter at the end, but he was tired and when he got bulled to the ropes he didn't have the gas to spin out. He tried to rest there but was getting sledge-hammered too much.

What should Moore have done? He should have employed a strategem based on what he saw on film -not on prideful assumptions. What was plain to see, was that Rocky was enormously strong and was able to take monstrous punishment. He was indeed deliberate, and Moore had that right, but instead of meeting him and trying to hurt him, he should have put in his own investment -points. That would have rendered Rocky unable to do his usual investment of pounding meat nonstop. If Moore formed a strategy around angles, strong countering, and mobility (or simple pivots, since his legs were old), it would have been a different fight. The counter right confirmed this. When he stuck in straight shots and countered and then reset distance he was looking good. That was how he got the kd. Moore got that one while backing up! When Marciano was allowed to get close, the fight turned 100% against Moore.

But I still believe he would have been more successful had he circled to his right. He would have had Marciano lunging and out of position. He could slip the hook (which he did effectively) and counter with the right uppercut from Marciano's left side (the way Tyson often did).
You believe that, but Moore did not!

Moore criticized Charles for trying to counter Marciano's left hook. "How you goin' to counter that hook? Man got stubby little arms not longer than that..." Moore also believed that Marciano's best shot was exactly that -a left hook. I am inclined to agree with him here.

That was why Moore was moving to his left. Also, that is the proper way to go according to most. You're intention is to slip the right and counter. The man is more off balance after throwing a right and then a jab or a hook, so you capitalize on that.

[Marciano Frazier]

True, but I'm not basing that on only one opponent's expressed opinion/experience. Moore himself stated immediately after his match with Marciano that, "He's the strongest boxer I ever fought. I don't know that he is the hardest hitter, but he certainly hits hard enough." It's intriguing to me that the Mongoose would express some doubt about the supremacy of punching power from an adversary who he had a warm relationship with, at the time they'd just competed against each other. After his career was over, Archie definitively asserted that the first right hand Yvon Durelle floored him with in their initial meeting was indeed that hardest punch he ever took in his career.

To be sure, Rocky had more than sufficient power for his needs. But two highly qualified and experienced opponents of Rocky have both stated that he was not the man who hit them the hardest. One opinion could perhaps be readily dismissed, but such a confluence of feedback on this subject as Lowry's and Moore's can give one more pause for thought.

Marciano himself indicated that he felt his two knockout punches against Walcott were the hardest punches he ever connected with.
Moore had never landed a knockout punch on himself that we're aware of, so Moore not being certain Marciano was the hardest hitter he'd ever fought would not provide any evidence that Moore himself hit harder than Marciano. Only Lowry's statements support that conclusion. Based on their careers and their respective results against their multiple common opponents, it seems reasonably evident that Marciano hit harder. And Moore's remark about the Durelle punch being the hardest he ever took is actually contradicted by his statements in a RING Magazine interview, for which he reported that Curtis "the Hatchetman" Sheppard hit him the hardest of all his opponents.

And yes, some of Marciano's opponents didn't feel that he had hit him the hardest out of everyone they'd faced, but again, this needs to be looked at in context-
First, many experienced and qualified opponents who faced Marciano did consider him the hardest hitter they'd ever fought(among them Freddie Beshore, Keene Simmons, and Walcott). Some experienced and qualified opponents who fought Louis, Foreman, Tyson, Lewis, etc. didn't consider them the hardest hitters they'd ever fought(for example, Chuvalo said that Frazier hit him harder than Foreman, Alex Stewart said that Holyfield hit him harder than Foreman or Tyson, McCall said that Buster Douglas hit him harder than Lewis or Tyson, Walcott said after the first Louis fight that Gomez, Sheppard, Ray, and Murray hit him harder than Louis, Holmes, Holyfield, Ruddock, etc. all said that Tyson was not the hardest hitter they ever fought and that different opponents hit harder, etc.).
If we were to take all the testimony about who hit the hardest or hit harder from all the common opponents of all the champions, we would have a truckload of contradictory statements; for example, Rex Layne(who fought Marciano and fought exhibitions against Louis) said that Louis hit him harder than Marciano, but Jersey Joe Walcott, Freddie Beshore and Keene Simmons said Marciano hit them harder than Louis.

A fighter doesn't land his hardest punch, or even throw his hardest punch, in every fight. Sometimes one guy may have landed an especially hard punch on an opponent while another guy who normally hits harder will not have connected with such a blow. Some fighters' punching power changes and develops over the course of their careers. And our own perceptions of how hard a punch hit us are subjective and qualitative, and not a hard science.

Now, I'm not saying that the opinions of opponents aren't important in assessing punching power- I think they're very much so. But the fact that common opponents often contradict each other, contradict themselves(for example, Foreman said at various times that Lyle, Cooney and Ali[!] hit him the hardest, Marciano that Vingo, Walcott and Moore hit him the hardest, Moore that Sheppard and Durelle hit him the hardest, etc.), and say things which are pretty strongly at odds with the hard facts(like Buster Douglas hitting harder than Lewis or Holyfield hitting harder than Tyson, which are each claimed by a common opponent) demonstrates that they need to be taken with a good grain of salt and interpreted in context. I hope I've illustrated reasonably well why one common opponent's statement on the subject doesn't really provide good reason to think there is a serious possibility that Moore was a harder hitter than Marciano.

[Marciano Frazier]

It seemed like Moore was tired early. I think it's possible that he came in flat (the way he described his perfomance against Patterson) and decided to just mix it Marciano and counter right (it worked once, didn't it?). But I still believe he would have been more successful had he circled to his right. He would have had Marciano lunging and out of position. He could slip the hook (which he did effectively) and counter with the right uppercut from Marciano's left side (the way Tyson often did).
I think Moore tired early because he was fighting Marciano. If you examine the careers of nearly all Marciano's major opponents, you'll see that virtually every one of them tired unusually early in their fights with him. Marciano was an unusual fighter. He threw an unusually high number of hard, punishing punches to the arms, shoulders, body and head, virtually never clinched, never backpedaled, never "cruised" through sections of a fight, and never took a round off.

I don't believe Marciano was better than Moore.
Marciano was champion, while Moore wasn't, Marciano never lost, while Moore did, Marciano did better than Moore against their common opposition, and Marciano beat Moore himself in very decisive fashion. At least as a heavyweight, I think it's plenty evident that Marciano was the better fighter.

The age difference cannot be exaggerated. Moore was a marvel, and he was beating big heavyweights (like Valdes), but against the buzzsaw, he was just too old to hold up. He timing was a bit off as he tired. I think had Marciano met a younger Moore things might have been different.
Actually, the age difference can be exaggerated quite a bit. Moore was 38-42 years old(depending on whose word you take), yes, but as you say, he was a marvel. One of a kind. He may have been old, but he was on the biggest winning streak of his career, having won his last 21 fights in a row, and one certainly can't claim that his opposition was weaker than usual in that run, seeing how six of those were against world champions and future Hall-of-Famers and several more were against top heavyweight contenders. Moore was on the absolute best run of his career going into the Marciano fight, bar none. He would go on afterwards to compile an impressive 37-4-2 record, make five more successful defenses of his light heavyweight title, hold that title for five more years, and remain a top 10 heavyweight for seven more years. Moore was absolutely in his prime when he fought Marciano, in spite of his advanced age.

[Duodenum]

Marciano Frazier, you have produced a series of highly intelligent and well-articulated brilliant posts on this thread (as have the rest of you here). Many lucid insights, and thoughtful, interesting analysis. I'm going to sit back, relax, and enjoy these exchanges, as there's nothing I can contribute now to this discussion.

Was there ever any possibility that Archie Moore could have defeated Rocky? I don't think so. Ezzard Charles had Archie's number, and did about as well in his 15 rounder with Rocky was anybody in that era could have done. Archie only lasted into the eighth round as was, so the idea of him lasting twice as long, and being on his feet at the end of 15 rounds seems a little far fetched to me.

Was Moore actually a harder puncher than Marciano? Maybe, for one punch, maybe not. He appears to have been able to connect more reliably than Rocky, but punch for punch, Marciano was perhaps a bit like Cuevas, an attrition specialist who could take an opponent out with any shot landed. If Marciano's average power per punch wasn't the highest of any heavyweight champ, I'd like to know whose was!

[Street Lethal]

At Stillman's Gym and when he was in camp at Grossingers and Kutchers in the Catskill Mountains.

Lucky you! Did you ever see him fight live?