Joe Louis vs Sonny Liston

[Cobra33]

Heres a great match-up featuring 2 alltime greats who could end a fight with 1 punch.Louis probabely has the faster hands but Liston the physical strength.Who wins?

[RAMPAGE0017]

Liston KOs Louis... I'll give him 5 or 6 rounds. I'm not really a believer as far as Joe's power goes.. I mean, I'm sure he was powerful for his day, but I don't think his power holds up as well in future generations.

[McGrain]

This fight is a nightmare. How to begin? I have it as a pick em and there are several reasons for this.

I posted a thread (%$@t) about areas where Liston shaded Louis, which I would love to reference here as it had a great response. To paraphrase it here, Liston had Louis edged in terms of:

Chin (barely)
Power (in his biggest shots)
Jab
Raw strength
Ring smarts

Wheras Louis has, I feel clearly better footwork, faster hands, better combo's and has proven his stamina to a greater extent (See the rally in Walcott II where he was way past his prime).

So how to quantify all of this? The problem is it's all bullshit because of what has been seen. ANY fighter that every came to either of these guys during their peaks got his head handed to him. If you go to Liston you get murdered. If you go to Louis you get murdered.

If you'd set up a poll I wouldn't have voted in it. I think it's to close to call.

However, if I'd just joined a new gambling site and they'd given me a free £3 bet for this fight, I wouldn't waste it. I'd put it on Louis to win by mid round stopage. But I wouldn't neccesarily expect to see a return.

[Executioner]

Liston knocks him out with a piledriver right hand in the 8th round but Louis, of course wins the rematch.

[Ramon Rojo]

Liston by KO before 6th

[groove]

This would be some fight. I can't see it lasting more than 6 rounds. Could go either way. Liston may finish it quick as he's got the extra power. But Louis is the better combo puncher so it's very interesting match-up. Hard one to call. I favour Liston to win within 3 rounds or Louis to win from 4th round onwards.

[robert ungurean]

I like Louis in 9 by KO.
Faster hands
better combo's
smarter fighter.

[Jupiter1610]

I like Liston by KO. I think that he has the better chin of the two and the superior defense, despite Joe's edge in speed and accuracy.

[timmers612]

Mcgrain, yours was fun and interesting post, one of the better ones from the last few years. Cheers

[McGrain]

Mcgrain, yours was fun and interesting post, one of the better ones from the last few years. Cheers

Thanks for taking the time to say so.

[McGrain]

I have never seen a fighter of alleged excellence look more stupid than Louis did in his first fight with Max Schmeling.


You SOB, I have to agree :lol:


Bump. Bump, bump, bump.

He just...i don't know. Anyway, i've said it before i'll say it again, that fight fell outside of Joe's composite peak. And it should be added that Schmeling was a very smart fighter.

But I agree that Liston was the smarter of the two.

[McGrain]

When it came to thinking on his feet, Louis was one of the absolute worst.

Of the ATG's,yes. But in his defence all he had to think about most of the time was "how do i get this guy to come to me".

Much like a crackhead, he was lost when thinking about anything else, but very good at devising ways of getting crack.

[Muchmoore]

I would pick Liston. They fought a lot alike, but Liston had the edge in most categories by a little bit.

Liston by KO within 9.

[hobgoblin]

Liston had a far superior jab so he'd give Louis trouble there. However, I still put my money on Louis to be defensive, look for openings, counter, and get a brutal KO with his counter, well timed combination punching.

Louis by KO but Liston has a good chance of pulling off an upset.

[rekcutnevets]

I think that in order for Louis to win, he has to give ground to Liston. I don't mean dance around the ring, more like what he tried against Marciano. I don't believe he can tear into Liston and try to bully him. Liston is too much bull for Louis to try that with. I think he can land cleaner punches, without using as much effort, if he lets Liston follow him.

I think this one goes the distance. I don't see Joe knocking Liston out fighting in the fashion I described.

I think Louis can win a close decision, winning with crisp combinations.

[hobgoblin]

I think this one goes the distance. I don't see Joe knocking Liston out fighting in the fashion I described.

I think Louis can win a close decision, winning with crisp combinations.

A fight between these two guys is very unlikely to go the distance. If Louis lands those crisp combinations - I don't think Liston will be standing for long. Those were paralyzing shits that made you susceptible and open for KO punches. If it does go the distance, it means it was a boxing match - and I think Listons wins points - that's just me. btw, i originally made a typo (notice the o and i are very near on the keyboard) and i decided not to correct it.

[rekcutnevets]

If Louis fights in the manner I mentioned, I think that Sonny will bump him enough to keep Louis from getting great leverage on his punches. I think that Louis' edge in hand speed will still allow him to land some good combinations.

That is why I predict the decision win.

[JohnThomas1]

I don't understand this last bit. I have never seen a fighter of alleged excellence look more stupid than Louis did in his first fight with Max Schmeling.

Was he peak or still learning? Marvin did some pretty silly things vs Leonard too and he was seasoned. Louis shored up some weaknesses and come back a better fighter. Many are never as good again.

[Holmes' Jab]

I think that Louis would stop Sonny in the later rounds (whilst being behind on the scorecards)

Louis TKO13 Liston

[Bummy Davis]

Louis by KO

[Amsterdam]

Liston in 8 rounds. However, this would be one of the best fights ever possibly from a standpoint of HW technical skill and power mixed into one.

I love boxing.

[rekcutnevets]

This topic was up not too long ago. I picked Louis there. I said that I thought he would have to try to fight Liston the way he tried to fight Marciano. A younger version of Joe would be more effective than an older Joe obviously. This is the only way I can see him having chance against Liston. Liston was too much bull for Joe to bully.

I started a thread about Joe Louis vs. Jack Johnson some time ago, and I have seen a post here and there showing that some remember it. In it Johnson talked of Louis' being vulnerable to a right cross. Liston could find him with that cross of his, and eating his would fill you up faster than Schmeling's would.

I think I'm picking Liston this week, by ko. I may change to Joe next week. This one is a pick 'em for me.

[rekcutnevets]

Actually, this is the same thread I had originally posted in.

[Longhhorn71]

Very interesting match-up.

Louis stood up to Max Baer's punches, Liston to Cleve Williams'.

Louis had his Billy Conn, & Liston had his CC / Ali.

What Clay did to Liston was to not be intimidated by Liston's "evil eye"
staredown....the bully now was not the bully.

If Louis doesn't blink, then he is the better technical fighter and could /should win the decision. But if he blinks, then see the Tony Galento type left hook on the Bomber's jaw, except this time he doesn't get up.

[C. M. Clay II]

This would be the battle of the jabs, as both men had superb straight lefts. Both men are two of the most complete heavyweight machines of all-time.Louis has the faster hands and the slightly better combinations, but Liston has the power, and the ringsmarts advantage, not to mention durability. This would be a chess match early on. Liston would be slightly out pointing Liston, and so Louis knowing he is behind will be more aggressive. This would allow Liston to make use of his tremendous power and body attack. Louis would be vulnerable to his famous left hook and his dynamite right hand. I see Liston grinding out a mid to late round knockout, being slightly ahead on the cards.

Sonny Liston KO 9 Joe Louis:good

[jyuza]

Prime Sonny would win the fight imo.

Better jab, great chin, KO power in both hands... Liston is just the better fighter.
Louis may slightly be the better boxer for some but I don't think he is.

Liston TKO 5

[la-califa]

Liston chased Clay around the ring, but really could not land any signifigant punches. Louis would use his boxing skills to keep away & soften up Liston for about a tenth or eleventh round knockout. Louis was slick enough to avoid Liston's punches while landing his own hard shots, which would be the main difference.

[C. M. Clay II]

Liston chased Clay around the ring, but really could not land any signifigant punches. Louis would use his boxing skills to keep away & soften up Liston for about a tenth or eleventh round knockout. Louis was slick enough to avoid Liston's punches while landing his own hard shots, which would be the main difference.

I could do the same thing.

Louis chased Walcott around the ring, but really could not land any signifigant punches. Liston would use his boxing skills to keep away & soften up Louis for about a tenth or eleventh round knockout. Liston was slick enough to avoid Louis' punches while landing his own hard shots, which would be the main difference.

:good

[Holmes' Jab]

Liston had the edge in most categories by a little bit.

Aye like handspeed and combination punching. :roll: Fair enough he had perhaps the slight edge in power and pure strength.

Back to the topic, I do think Listons jab would give Louis potential fits. However eventually Louis body attack will wear Liston down,it's no secret that this would have more success as the fight wears on (providing Louis boxes smart and avoids big shots early on), enough for a late stoppage. The longer this one goes on the more it plays right into Louis hands. A mid-round Liston stoppage also isn't outta the question should Louis get sloppy :good

[Duodenum]

I like Louis in this one. I think Joe was the superior defensive boxer at slipping punches when moving in, and he put shorter punches together better than Sonny. My belief is that Louis slips Liston's jab on the way inside, and then drives Liston back by coming up with combinations between Sonny's longer arms. Louis was the most accurate of the HW champs, and wouldn't have had a particularly hard time connecting with Sonny's head, especially since the less mobile Liston would be fighting tall in this one. That could result in him retreating for a change, a bad situation for Liston. To back Joe up as Godoy did, a much lower center of gravity was necessary, an advantage Liston would not have enjoyed,

Once inside, Joe would need far less room to pull the trigger than Sonny required. Louis's jab was faster, and his hook was much shorter, and would have been delivered in a tighter arc than Liston's. Louis would split Sonny's arms and feet, securing the center line for himself. Punch for punch, Liston's longer hook may have been harder than anything Louis had in his arsenal, but shorter, sharper, more accurate combinations decide this one between Liston's arms and wider base.

Louis was one individual who Sonny was actually afraid of, and Joe wouldn't have been intimidated if they'd met in the ring. Joe scored fairly quick kayos over larger, stronger, and harder punching opponents than himself. He would enjoy a substantial edge in leverage and technique.

Sonny was physically tough, but his mental durability was a different matter. Joe probably stops him in the middle rounds, after continually driving Sonny back with his efficient attack. Bottom line is that this is won by punching, and Liston's few big guns are overwhelmed by Joe's far more numerous smaller arms.

[McGrain]

Sonny was physically tough, but his mental durability was a different matter.

Interesting. I would say that in working as a mule - tied into a plough - Sonny showed extraordinary mental durability.

I also feel that he showed incredible mental toughness getting to the finishing line with a broken jaw.

Also, i'd imagine for a man like Sonny, beahving yourself in prison on a promise of release must have been one of the most serious undertakings of his life.

[McGrain]

Sonny Liston was awesome, and I don't use the word "awesome" in the way a punk kid uses it. I am using it in the way it's supposed to be used: Liston was a boxer with incredible natural assets. Only a master like Ali has the tools to defeat Liston. Louis doesn't have these tools.

Spot on about Liston.

Way of about Louis.

[Duodenum]

Interesting. I would say that in working as a mule - tied into a plough - Sonny showed extraordinary mental durability.

I also feel that he showed incredible mental toughness getting to the finishing line with a broken jaw.

Also, I'd imagine for a man like Sonny, beahving yourself in prison on a promise of release must have been one of the most serious undertakings of his life.True enough, but the rejection of his adopted hometown of Philadelphia, and continual rejection wherever he went after becoming champion finally beat it out of him. It destroyed him, just as Janis Joplin's high school classmates rejection of her at their tenth reunion tore the spirit out of her. (Winning the biggest prize in sports, or becoming an international rock superstar didn't change the way they were treated by those who mattered to them. That's why people are best off when contented with themselves. This is what it means to be truly empowered.)

[McGrain]

True enough, but the rejection of his adopted hometown of Philadelphia, and continual rejection wherever he went after becoming champion finally beat it out of him. It destroyed him, just as Janis Joplin's high school classmates rejection of her at their tenth reunion tore the spirit out of her. (Winning the biggest prize in sports, or becoming an international rock superstar didn't change the way they were treated by those who mattered to them. That's why people are best off when contented with themselves. This is what it means to be truly empowered.)

This is a very good post. I still disagree with the original post though.

[Duodenum]

This is a very good post. I still disagree with the original post though.Fair enough. The scenario I would propose for Louis would then be a clear cut decision win. Joe would simply score more than Sonny, if neither crumbled. If Sonny wasn't going to crack mentally, then the fact he couldn't intimidate Louis would still deprive him of a usual advantage. Galento and Braddock weren't afraid of Louis either, yet Joe took them both out in timely fashion.

[Irish Steel]

Liston 6th round KO

[Stonehands89]

Fair enough. The scenario I would propose for Louis would then be a clear cut decision win. Joe would simply score more than Sonny, if neither crumbled. If Sonny wasn't going to crack mentally, then the fact he couldn't intimidate Louis would still deprive him of a usual advantage. Galento and Braddock weren't afraid of Louis either, yet Joe took them both out in timely fashion.

Galento and Braddock were comparatively non-threats.

Intimidating guys like Dempsey, Duran, Liston, and Tyson were intimidating -but that was really a byproduct of a reality. The reality was their proven capabilities to inflict serious physical harm on strong men.

In time, their intimidating presence gave them an edge with purses and with pansies, but the moment they relied on it to get by, they crashed down to earth.

1959 Liston was as close to a complete HW that I ever saw. He was physically far more imposing than Louis and his skills were surprising good. He also was dead serious in getting that title.

[Duodenum]

Galento and Braddock were comparatively non-threats.True, but nonetheless, Joe had to get off his butt to take them out. He didn't have them scared stiff going in, as he did Max Baer.Intimidating guys like Dempsey, Duran, Liston, and Tyson were intimidating -but that was really a byproduct of a reality. The reality was their proven capabilities to inflict serious physical harm on strong men.

In time, their intimidating presence gave them an edge with purses and with pansies, but the moment they relied on it to get by, they crashed down to earth.

1959 Liston was as close to a complete HW that I ever saw. He was physically far more imposing than Louis and his skills were surprising good. He also was dead serious in getting that title.I don't believe Liston had Louis's skill at slipping blows, and I think this would be crucial to the eventual outcome. Once again, it comes down to who's better at hitting without getting hit.

Sonny had the best offensive jab I've viewed of any heavyweight. Of the boxers in all divisions who have come since, I think Hagler's southpaw jab compares most closely to Sonny's ramrod left. But Liston didn't have the speed Joe possessed, and even if he did, the shorter distance Louis's punches traveled would make up for it. Galento's left hook was a dangerous weapon, and Tony had an iron jaw. Two-Ton lacked the discipline to stay low, after decking Louis. Both Baers had tremendous power and size, moreso than Liston, and nobody had been able to drop Max Baer. (Nor do I think Louis would have, if Maxie was as committed to winning as Joe was.)

When I look at how Louis jabbed Baer, Blackburn's practice of tying Joe's right wrist to the corner of the ring in training becomes evident. By getting down low enough so that his body made a straight line from his right foot to the end of his left arm, he was able to maximize the length and power of his jab in snapping Baer's head back. Combining that with his speed, Joe might have been able to jab with Sonny (whose arms were not as long as his overall reach has led fans to believe-more of it was concentrated in his collarbone than usual).

I'll have to look more closely at footage of Liston, to carefully examine just how adept he was at slipping punches. I'm not that impressed with what little I've watched so far. (I keep forgetting to tune out Sonny's offense when viewing his clips.) My speculation is that Sonny would have problems with an opponent capable of slipping his jab on the way in, and I think an aggressive counterpuncher like Joe could have turned the trick.

What are your thoughts?

[Sonny Carson]

Louis would knock Liston out late.

[ChrisPontius]

I'd go with Louis, although this is one of those fights that could go both ways. I think Louis' superior handspeed & combinations would get him through.

[McGrain]

Louis' skill at slipping punches was a function of how awful his competition was. He fought a lot of bums who simply couldn't hit him cleanly because their accuracy was so poor. When they did catch him he was wobbled often. A little better level of competition and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

These bums, would they have beaten me? I spar sometimes.

How about Matt Skelton?

While i'm asking, where do you get of calling men who risk their lives in a sport you're supposed to love, bums?

[McGrain]

Oh God, this stupid argument again. McGrain, everybody called them bums. Do you read the sports writers of the day? We all know what we mean when we say bums. We aren't talking about poor homeless people. We are talking about cannon fodder. Nobody believed those fighters had a chance of winning the title. They were sarificial lambs served up for the entertainment of bloodthirsty fans.

Journeyman means something quite different in the world of work than it does in the world of sports. Likewise, bum means something different in boxing than it does in on Skid Row. You need to learn the difference (maybe your analogies would be better, eh?).

You are getting really overexcited now!


Any chance of you answering my boxing question?
Of course I know exactly what you meant when you called them bums. It speaks of your ignorance concerning the respect a fan can have for a boxer that you failed so miserabley to make the distinction yourself. You really don't understand why a fan would get upset at another fan calling these men "bums" even in the sporting sense.

Please take a little time to understand what an argument might be before you label it "stupid".

Any chance of you answering my boxing questions?

[McGrain]

Your point is ridiculous. I can answer your point no other way.

Explain this please.

Are you saying that my point is so ridiculous that you can't answer it in any other way than pretending that you thought that I was refering to homeless people?

Or are you saying that my point was so ridiculous you couldn't help but make that ridiculous mistake?



You are trying to argue against my point by acting all indignant over the use of the term "bum" which every hardcore fan uses and knows perfectly well what it means. What in the hell do you think Brando's Terry Malloy was talking about? You can't whine about a term that we all use and have been using for decades.

Answer what point? I asked you if Matt Skelton could beat Max Baer or myself and you haven't answered - what point?

I know what the term "bum" means (though your insistance that "we all know perfectly well what it means" having spent a post raving about homeless people seems a little odd) - i know it was used at the time.

The BBC's Harry Carpenter: "I don't think they wre bums particularly, I just think that Louis was very, very goood". That's the counterpoint. Calling them bums is disrespectful - I don't like it, i'm sorry if that upsets you but please don't insist that i am being disingenuos.

Look here, you don't like the terms "bum" and "journeyman" because your favorite boxer fought a whole bunch of them and you know it makes him look bad.

Hank, this is so far of it's unbelievable. It's just utter stupidity. Louis isn't my favourite boxer. He isn't even my favourite heavyweight (see BIG CLUE in avatar). I rate Ali no.1 all time and enjoy watching him and Louis about as much as each other.


So you want to act like these terms are meaningless or irrelevant. That's a cheap bullshit trick of language, McGrain. You can't change the reality of Louis' career by drifting off into some fantasy world where words with meanings you don't like don't apply.

Not even touching this.

Joe Louis fought a bunch of journeymen and bums. Face it.

You've persuaded me with your cutting analysis, which stretches to, "he beat him, but he was shit, he beat him but he was shit, he beat him but he was shit," until everyone who fought Rocky or Louis is tainted. It shows astonishing disrespect for these fighters and burries your intelligence under an avalanche of ignorance.



He didn't come anywhere near fighting the level of competition that Ali fought. The record is what it is. Words mean what they mean. Welcome to the sport of boxing.

Thanks for the welcome.

Your are right about Ali of course.

What the fuck does he have to do with this argument about Joe Louis?

[C. M. Clay II]

I like Louis in this one. I think Joe was the superior defensive boxer at slipping punches when moving in, and he put shorter punches together better than Sonny. My belief is that Louis slips Liston's jab on the way inside, and then drives Liston back by coming up with combinations between Sonny's longer arms. Louis was the most accurate of the HW champs, and wouldn't have had a particularly hard time connecting with Sonny's head, especially since the less mobile Liston would be fighting tall in this one. That could result in him retreating for a change, a bad situation for Liston. To back Joe up as Godoy did, a much lower center of gravity was necessary, an advantage Liston would not have enjoyed,

Once inside, Joe would need far less room to pull the trigger than Sonny required. Louis's jab was faster, and his hook was much shorter, and would have been delivered in a tighter arc than Liston's. Louis would split Sonny's arms and feet, securing the center line for himself. Punch for punch, Liston's longer hook may have been harder than anything Louis had in his arsenal, but shorter, sharper, more accurate combinations decide this one between Liston's arms and wider base.

Louis was one individual who Sonny was actually afraid of, and Joe wouldn't have been intimidated if they'd met in the ring. Joe scored fairly quick kayos over larger, stronger, and harder punching opponents than himself. He would enjoy a substantial edge in leverage and technique.

Sonny was physically tough, but his mental durability was a different matter. Joe probably stops him in the middle rounds, after continually driving Sonny back with his efficient attack. Bottom line is that this is won by punching, and Liston's few big guns are overwhelmed by Joe's far more numerous smaller arms.

Liston's hook was just as short as Louis', IMO. Watch the first Cleveland Williams fight.:good

[Duodenum]

Liston's hook was just as short as Louis', IMO. Watch the first Cleveland Williams fight.:goodIn fact, I did view the first Liston/Williams match before typing the post you've commented on, but it never hurts to revisit such footage on a routine basis, especially when it's being viewed on a service like youtube, instead of enhancable 24 frame per second movie film on projecting equipment.

As I suggested previously, even if Sonny's hook was as short, then I postulate that Louis's speed might give him an edge here.

I enthusiatically admire Sonny's mid-ring use of his jab through the first several rounds of Liston's match with Leotis Martin. That footage up to Liston's left hook KD of Leotis makes for fine instruction in the proper use of an jab for offensive purposes.

[mcvey]

Sonny Liston was awesome, and I don't use the word "awesome" in the way a punk kid uses it. I am using it in the way it's supposed to be used: Liston was a boxer with incredible natural assets. Only a master like Ali has the tools to defeat Liston. Louis doesn't have these tools.
Liston had awesome power but couldnt cut off the ring to save his life ,if you backtracked,he just plodded after you.Foreman was much more adept at it.

[mcvey]

Galento and Braddock were comparatively non-threats.

Intimidating guys like Dempsey, Duran, Liston, and Tyson were intimidating -but that was really a byproduct of a reality. The reality was their proven capabilities to inflict serious physical harm on strong men.

In time, their intimidating presence gave them an edge with purses and with pansies, but the moment they relied on it to get by, they crashed down to earth.

1959 Liston was as close to a complete HW that I ever saw. He was physically far more imposing than Louis and his skills were surprising good. He also was dead serious in getting that title.
Sonny couldnt cut off the ring to save his life ,so he wasnt a complete heavyweight by any means.

[Stonehands89]

Sonny couldnt cut off the ring to save his life ,so he wasnt a complete heavyweight by any means.

... and you base this on the Clay fight. Shalll we judge Foreman on the Axel Shultz fight? Or Ali on the Spinks fight? Or Tyson vs. Douglas? Liston didn't train and was 5 years past his prime. And even if you were right in your assertion, would you than concur with the following?

Joe Louis had virtually no mobility, so he wasn't a complete heavyweight by any means.

Muhammad Ali couldn't fight on the inside, so he wasn't a complete heavyweight by any means.

Rocky Marciano couldn't stick and move, so he wasn't a complete heavyweight by any means.

George Foreman's defense was porous, so he wasn't a complete heavyweight by any means.

Mike Tyson couldn't fight going backwards, so he wasn't a complete heavyweight by any means.

....

[Stonehands89]

True, but nonetheless, Joe had to get off his butt to take them out. He didn't have them scared stiff going in, as he did Max Baer.I don't believe Liston had Louis's skill at slipping blows, and I think this would be crucial to the eventual outcome. Once again, it comes down to who's better at hitting without getting hit.
Liston had serious skill for a man that size and with that thickness. His defense was actually very good -and you can witness him dealing with the aggression of Williams by slipping at least 5 or 6 jabs in round 1, weaving under hooks, slipping rights, blocking hooks, the whole gamut. He also pivoted well and stepped to angles to counter. If you also consider that his offensive arsenal was as complete as Louis's, then you'd have to agree that his skill set alone was far beyond any of Louis's opponents with the exceptions of Conn, Walcott, and Charles.

Add to that the bonecrushing power behind every shot. Liston could smash rights to the body very well, even against shorter men.

Sonny had the best offensive jab I've viewed of any heavyweight. Of the boxers in all divisions who have come since, I think Hagler's southpaw jab compares most closely to Sonny's ramrod left. But Liston didn't have the speed Joe possessed, and even if he did, the shorter distance Louis's punches traveled would make up for it. Galento's left hook was a dangerous weapon, and Tony had an iron jaw. Two-Ton lacked the discipline to stay low, after decking Louis. Both Baers had tremendous power and size, moreso than Liston, and nobody had been able to drop Max Baer. (Nor do I think Louis would have, if Maxie was as committed to winning as Joe was.)

When I look at how Louis jabbed Baer, Blackburn's practice of tying Joe's right wrist to the corner of the ring in training becomes evident. By getting down low enough so that his body made a straight line from his right foot to the end of his left arm, he was able to maximize the length and power of his jab in snapping Baer's head back. Combining that with his speed, Joe might have been able to jab with Sonny (whose arms were not as long as his overall reach has led fans to believe-more of it was concentrated in his collarbone than usual).

I'll have to look more closely at footage of Liston, to carefully examine just how adept he was at slipping punches. I'm not that impressed with what little I've watched so far. (I keep forgetting to tune out Sonny's offense when viewing his clips.) My speculation is that Sonny would have problems with an opponent capable of slipping his jab on the way in, and I think an aggressive counterpuncher like Joe could have turned the trick.

What are your thoughts?

I agree that about the Liston jab. It was the single most powerful jab that I have ever seen. It is longer than anyone's -and he threw it long and stepped into it as well. It had textbook form.

I have to say that Liston fought from a tighter position than you are acknowledging. He was prepared for the incoming and had a solid defense combined with athleticism. Out here it has become a fad to denigrate the man's speed. Liston was not fast, but he wasn't ponderous either, or at least his shots weren't. His left hook approached slashing during his prime.

Cox did a thing on youtube called "The Big, Bad Bear" -watch the first minute or so and you'll see how long that jab really was. Also, the first round of the William's fight for an idea of his defense.

Liston could fight close, mid-range, and particular long range. Prime Joe Louis would have a world of trouble dealing with that combination of strength, power, and skill. Conn troubled him mightily with skill... as did Tommy Farr. Strong guys like Carnera and the Baers had trouble... but Marciano combined strength and power and did well against a geriatric Joe who was stronger than the prime version in my opinion. The point is that Liston was physically stronger than all of Joe's opponents with the possible exception of Carnera, but he was so ackward and uncoordinated it is nullified. Liston may have hit harder than Marciano, shot for shot. And he was far more skilled than all of the simple "strong men" on Louis' record.

You make good points when you talk about the geometry of the respective offenses. Louis's shot travelled shorter distances and were quicker to land. He knew how to step in close and explode lethal combinations that were perfectly placed. However, Liston's jab was not that easy to slip, and he angled off of it as well. This is done to set up the right -lining up the right heel with the other guy's chin is nicely done this way, behind the angling jab. Joe's slipping that jab and coming in could be met with a big right.

Also, Liston was not easily dominated in close... he is skilled and very strong. Joe's only chance would be slipping and getting mid-range to maximize the force of his shots. But can you see him stopping Liston? I can't. Liston would eventually do more damage in a war of attrition.

[la-califa]

If Liston was such a great boxer, fast & all that. why couldn't he touch a blinded Clay for two rounds? His jab would be a fine weapon against Louis. But Louis has too many weapons & would wear down the "Big ugly Bear" for a late round stoppage, like the Martin fight.

[la-califa]

But not at that point of his career. He was still just a kid. Liston was at the pinicle of his career. Clay had a ton of talent, but still he was in the learning process. as his fight with Doug Jones proved. My point being. Liston had trouble with fighters with boxing ability. & Louis would make him pay for his misses. & wear Liston down for a late round stoppage.

[Stonehands89]

Because Muhammad Ali is the greatest heavyweight who ever lived. Not only that, apart from Ray Robinson, Ali is arguably the greatest fight pound-for-pound who ever lived. Even with shit in his eyes he could outbox Liston. At that point in Ali's career no heavyweight could have beaten him.

Ali was indeed the greatest HW who ever lived.

Was he arguably the greatest, p4p who ever lived apart from Robinson? That's a stretch. A big one. Unless you want to factor in "celebrity impact" which is outright nonsense.

Could he outbox an in-shape Liston 5 years earlier while blind? Be serious. Liston brought nothing into the ring that night besides a reputation.

Could Cassius Clay have beaten any HW that night in '64? No. He was still green and hadn't even grown up yet ("I just turned 22 years old!"). Ali in 1967 was far more formidable.

[Stonehands89]

I am trying to think of another Olympic champion and three-time World champion with at least nineteen successful title defenses who dominated for two talent-laden decades and had a resume with a great number of all-time great opponents in his weight class, who was never knocked out or even hurt badly enough to have a referee stop the fight.

:huh

Ali was the greatest HW who ever lived. That is serious praise so don't pretend that I dismiss him; nor do you have to provide a well-tread litany of his accomplishments. I do however, have a low opinion of his division.

Unfortunately for him, the HW division is historically the weakest of the major divisions. That hurts his claim.

[dmt]

I am trying to think of another Olympic champion and three-time World champion with at least nineteen successful title defenses who dominated for two talent-laden decades and had a resume with a great number of all-time great opponents in his weight class, who was never knocked out or even hurt badly enough to have a referee stop the fight.

:huhwinning the olympic title is not that big a deal. Audley Harrison did it as well

[Hank]

Sonny Liston was awesome, and I don't use the word "awesome" in the way a punk kid uses it. I am using it in the way it's supposed to be used: Liston was a boxer with incredible natural assets. Only a master like Ali has the tools to defeat Liston. Louis doesn't have these tools.

He took dive against Ali. Or he had awful chin. He got jaw broke in one fight, in rematch he was down too agiains tguy who broke jaw---a lightheavy. Louis wins easy.

[DocDevil]

He took dive against Ali. Or he had awful chin. He got jaw broke in one fight, in rematch he was down too agiains tguy who broke jaw---a lightheavy. Louis wins easy.


Louis got floored by Braddock,Sonny definatly has a chance for a knockout.

[Stonehands89]

I agree that the heavyweight division has been historically weak. But between 1956 or so and the mid 1980s it wasn't, especially during the 1970s.

Shrink Ali down and put him in with anybody in any lower division and he is going to be very difficult to beat. He would even be faster at lower weights.

Shrink Ali down and he is a different fighter completely. Your whole argument becomes moot and lurches towards nonsense.