JMM vs. Pac II: Respected columnist Dan Rafael's take

[BigReg]

"The disturbing thing was to hear the crybaby Marquez camp whining and complaining endlessly about the decision as though it was scandalous. They should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. It's one thing to proclaim victory and express disappointment in a close decision loss. It's another to imply that some kind of shadowy element had it in for you and that the judging was somehow not on the up and up. The Marquez camp was almost as bad a few weeks ago when Rafael Marquez, Juan's brother, lost a tough decision in his rubber match with Israel Vazquez.

There are fights in which certain scores are mind-blowing and you really have to question the competency of the judges. This was not one of them. It was merely a razor-close fight that was awesome to watch because it had many close rounds. Marquez really has only himself to blame for the defeat. If he didn't get knocked down, the fight would have been a draw and he would have kept his title. Sure, many ringside media had it for Marquez, but only by a point or two, and even those who had him winning didn't complain about the official decision."

Thoughts?

[Shpion]

I personally thought the fight was a DRAW but unfortunetly JMM does appear to be a sour loser.

[marauder1999]

" If he didn't get knocked down, the fight would have been a draw and he would have kept his title. "

Thoughts?

Exactly what i feel. If he wouldnt have went down it would have probably been a draw.

[1lehudson]

Respected??

Anyways he isnt really talking much about the dec nor did he give his thoughts on who won. More about the reaction of JMM.

I would say this to Rafael, until you work your ass off for something(which judging from his size, only thing he works is the fork) only to have it taken away not once but twice, he shouldnt stand on his pulpit and preach about how one should react.

Now with that being said, I have to agree with him it wasnt a robbery and I said that from the start, close fight should have gone to JMM but you could make a case for Pac not a great one, but you could make one. As far as the knockdown like in the first fight its only one round, and you cant win a fight in one round if the other guy is still fghting.

[randeris]

It was not a robbery, but Dan Rafael is wrong saying that JMM can't be a sour loser.. Imagine that you believe that you won a fight clearly, and then, well, you somehow didn't.. You gotta feel robbed and i don't think Dan Rafael should judge someone for that.. Respected my ass.

[Marnoff]

Rafael is dead on point. This was a close fight, and I feel the scores perfectly reflected that. We rarely get to see such solid judging, but this is a case where they came through.

[BigReg]

It was not a robbery, but Dan Rafael is wrong saying that JMM can't be a sour loser.. Imagine that you believe that you won a fight clearly, and then, well, you somehow didn't.. You gotta feel robbed and i don't think Dan Rafael should judge someone for that.. Respected my ass.

I think his problem with JMM was that he was questioning the integrity of the judges. It's fine for a fighter to be upset if he loses, it's quite another to accuse others of cheating without any evidence.

[Caper]

Hmmm......

Well first things first....hats off the JMM and Pacman for giving boxing fans a real fight. Other than that....I can't complain about the SD win I thought the fight was extremely close and could have gone either way so Pacman getting the edge due to the knock down is all good in my book, neither man loses cool points only Pacman gets the edge in added cool points.

[PATSYS]

"The disturbing thing was to hear the crybaby Marquez camp whining and complaining endlessly about the decision as though it was scandalous. They should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. It's one thing to proclaim victory and express disappointment in a close decision loss. It's another to imply that some kind of shadowy element had it in for you and that the judging was somehow not on the up and up. The Marquez camp was almost as bad a few weeks ago when Rafael Marquez, Juan's brother, lost a tough decision in his rubber match with Israel Vazquez.

There are fights in which certain scores are mind-blowing and you really have to question the competency of the judges. This was not one of them. It was merely a razor-close fight that was awesome to watch because it had many close rounds. Marquez really has only himself to blame for the defeat. If he didn't get knocked down, the fight would have been a draw and he would have kept his title. Sure, many ringside media had it for Marquez, but only by a point or two, and even those who had him winning didn't complain about the official decision."

Thoughts?

I had the fight a draw as well. If JMM was awarded the victory, it would be just as acceptable.

This isn't a robbery by any standards, especially with the KD and the almost equal amount of punches landed by both. JMM may have the edge in total punches landed by compubox count but that was purely due to round 8, when Pac almost didn't throw anything. Round by round, Pac matched JMM punch per punch.

[enzo]

I've watch the fight about 10 times now... and the more i see it it's more clear that pac won it. It was close but pac won it... JMM won the 12th round no question... but Pac won the fight.

PAC won 1, 3, 4, 7, 9, 10, that rounds alone won him the fight. I even thought he won round 11...

[BewareofDawg]

Rafael is dead on point. This was a close fight, and I feel the scores perfectly reflected that. We rarely get to see such solid judging, but this is a case where they came through.
The fight wasn't a robbery. But given that Ford gave the 12th to Pac, his entire scorecard should be called into question.

[freddy-wak]

it must be frustrating for marquez, i mean, he is one of the few fighters that can acutally say he's never really gotten his ass beat or lost a fight and this bullshit keeps happening to him.......

it dont matter though, pac is moving up and marquez will still control the 130's....

[peter5]

The fight wasn't a robbery. But given that Ford gave the 12th to Pac, his entire scorecard should be called into question.

:good It asks the question whether judges actually know what the fuck theyre doing sometimes :nut

Personally, I can see why Marquez is pissed off, I had him winning both fights, and yet he gets nothing, Rafael can go smoke someones cock, rspected my ass!

[BewareofDawg]

:good It asks the question whether judges actually know what the fuck theyre doing sometimes :nut

Personally, I can see why Marquez is pissed off, I had him winning both fights, and yet he gets nothing, Rafael can go smoke someones cock, rspected my ass!
:lol:

[jimmie]

Dan Rafaeal needs to stop with bad mothing he does about fighters and read his shit he does it alot. Hes just a fat writer and not even a good one all hes worth is that notebook on Fridays which isnt even weekly I may add its like everyother week.

[peter5]

:lol:

:lol: :good Just out of interest, How'd you score both fights mate?

Like I said, I had JMM winning both

[jopedrosa]

If your an athlete who strive hard to achieve a glory of winning and losing by a hair lenght, it leave a painful feeling. However for the declared winner which lots thinking he wasn't, would be haunted by doubts!

[charlievint]

Respected??

Anyways he isnt really talking much about the dec nor did he give his thoughts on who won. More about the reaction of JMM.

I would say this to Rafael, until you work your ass off for something(which judging from his size, only thing he works is the fork) only to have it taken away not once but twice, he shouldnt stand on his pulpit and preach about how one should react.

Now with that being said, I have to agree with him it wasnt a robbery and I said that from the start, close fight should have gone to JMM but you could make a case for Pac not a great one, but you could make one. As far as the knockdown like in the first fight its only one round, and you cant win a fight in one round if the other guy is still fghting.

LOL...how can you make a case for JMM on winning when he lost? He preformed well but he was not the better man. Even in thier first fight...he was GIVEN the Draw which allowed him to keep his belts. PAC should have been outraged....but he wasn't...he was merely gracious in defeat and wanted a rematch.

JMM faught well...as he did in 2004....unfortunately for him both times proved that PAC was the better fighter....maybe not a better boxer...but he won both times they met.

Regarding the KD....that was the icing on the cake. That sealed the victory although even with out the KD I still think PAC won by one pt. It was a great fight and I understand JMM being upset b/c he lost but he's being a fucking cry baby.

[bigtime-skills]

Respected??

Anyways he isnt really talking much about the dec nor did he give his thoughts on who won. More about the reaction of JMM.

I would say this to Rafael, until you work your ass off for something(which judging from his size, only thing he works is the fork) only to have it taken away not once but twice, he shouldnt stand on his pulpit and preach about how one should react.

Now with that being said, I have to agree with him it wasnt a robbery and I said that from the start, close fight should have gone to JMM but you could make a case for Pac not a great one, but you could make one. As far as the knockdown like in the first fight its only one round, and you cant win a fight in one round if the other guy is still fghting.

Hell of a post:good

[charlievint]

it must be frustrating for marquez, i mean, he is one of the few fighters that can acutally say he's never really gotten his ass beat or lost a fight and this bullshit keeps happening to him.......

it dont matter though, pac is moving up and marquez will still control the 130's....

You're right! JMM has to be frustrated b/c he has never really lost convingingly.....he is kind of like DLH but DLH has won some major fights where JMM seems to loose his BIGGEST fights aside from edging MAB.....but I think MAB pulled that one out myself. He's a great fighter and I hope he continues to beat the best.......I just think PAC beats him again if they decided to do it again.

[zarathustra84]

it must be frustrating for marquez, i mean, he is one of the few fighters that can acutally say he's never really gotten his ass beat or lost a fight and this bullshit keeps happening to him.......

it dont matter though, pac is moving up and marquez will still control the 130's....

I truely don't understand statements such as this (and for the record you are not the only one to express them, nor are these statements even limited to this site). How can you honestly make the statement that Marquez has never lost a fight when he was just in a fight which he didn't win, but Pacman did. To me at least... that seems like a loss. I won't deny that it was a close fight that could have gone either way, but being in close fights doesn't somehow eliminate the losses from your record. Similar to any sport, especially ones with judges, having an incredibly close competition such as the fight between Pacman and Marquez can result in decisions one doesn't necessarily agree. However to constantly make remarks implying that Marquez was robbed, or somehow was denied something he rightly deserved, like that merely cheapens the entire event. If Marquez or Manny wanted to avoid this sort of occurance while one of them should have knocked the other out and then it would be conclusive. They didn't, it wasn't, and the judges had Pacman winning a close one. That is the way the cookie crumbles.

That being said I kind of wish Marquez had won because then we would have had a third fight. In any event I do hope Marquez gets a few more big money fights because a) they will probably be good fights, b) he derserves to make some good cash.

[Marnoff]

The fight wasn't a robbery. But given that Ford gave the 12th to Pac, his entire scorecard should be called into question.

Duane Ford is a fucking JOKE. He also gave Taylor Round 12 against Hopkins. I've seen him fuck up so many scorecards that I can't believe he's still judging.

[Marnoff]

I truely don't understand statements such as this (and for the record you are not the only one to express them, nor are these statements even limited to this site). How can you honestly make the statement that Marquez has never lost a fight when he was just in a fight which he didn't win, but Pacman did. To me at least... that seems like a loss. I won't deny that it was a close fight that could have gone either way, but being in close fights doesn't somehow eliminate the losses from your record. Similar to any sport, especially ones with judges, having an incredibly close competition such as the fight between Pacman and Marquez can result in decisions one doesn't necessarily agree. However to constantly make remarks implying that Marquez was robbed, or somehow was denied something he rightly deserved, like that merely cheapens the entire event. If Marquez or Manny wanted to avoid this sort of occurance while one of them should have knocked the other out and then it would be conclusive. They didn't, it wasn't, and the judges had Pacman winning a close one. That is the way the cookie crumbles.

That being said I kind of wish Marquez had won because then we would have had a third fight. In any event I do hope Marquez gets a few more big money fights because a) they will probably be good fights, b) he derserves to make some good cash.

Agreed. Marquez was by NO MEANS robbed, and yes, he has lost.

[Marnoff]

I've watch the fight about 10 times now... and the more i see it it's more clear that pac won it. It was close but pac won it... JMM won the 12th round no question... but Pac won the fight.

PAC won 1, 3, 4, 7, 9, 10, that rounds alone won him the fight. I even thought he won round 11...

I also had him winning Round 11.

[BigBone]

Dan Rafael scored it 114-113 for Juan Manuel Marquez

[acb]

The fight wasn't a robbery, at least not if you define robbery like I do, which is a gross misjustice or negligable decision on the behalf of the judges. The fight was just too close to claim that.

Simply put, Marquez is just frustrated. People say a lot of things after fights, I'm more interested in what he says in a week.

It seems like many or most writers had the fight going to Marquez. He has a gripe, but the gripe he is pursuing is the wrong one.

[BigReg]

Dan Rafael scored it 114-113 for Juan Manuel Marquez

Exactly. I think everyone is missing the point of this post. Rafael doesn't think it's a robbery even though he scored the fight for JMM. He realizes that the sport is very subjective, and that many of these rounds were close and could've gone either way. However, people on this board seem to overlook this. You could score all 12 rounds for 1 fighter. If all 12 of those rounds were close, you have to realize that it could've been scored the other way in every round.

[dangerousity]

I had it a draw being completely unbiased in scoring. I had 3 close rounds, I gave 1 to Pac, 1 to JMM & 1 even. Those 3 rounds could have easily gone to either JMM or Pac altogether. Besides with the KD the wasnt called on the 3rd, this just further lessens the suppose "controversy" in the score.

[Spitfire7]

Rafael is dead on. Marquez's camp's post-fight actuations (Rafa & Jmm's) had cheapen their warriors' standing in my book. Unless prima facie proof can be supplied, there is no grand conspiracy, as there is no ammonia-sniffing whatsoever after that fateful 3rd rd...:nut

[Spitbucket]

The fight wasn't a robbery. But given that Ford gave the 12th to Pac, his entire scorecard should be called into question.

Agree

What about this little gem:

"Schaefer: “I find it hard to believe that a judge was changed in the week leading up to the fight. That same judge scored the fight 114-113 for Pacquiao. There is no fight fan in the world that doesn’t want to see this again. We can all agree that there was controversy.”

And the fact that Arum became so incensed when Bereinsteing insinuated that the fix was on, he protested like a guilty man, like he knew they were up to something.


Although JMM did enough in my eyes to win the fight it was still very close an have no problems with PAC winning , the only problem I do have is that during my pre-fight predictons I stated that JMM had the cards stacked against him because Manny was the money-man.

ANd whether you guys want to believe it or not the judges are subconsciously biased in situations like this, it has been proven over
and over!

Another fishy thing is the way the Diaz contract was already before this fight even took place, which means things were already in motion
and what was suppossed to happen did.:deal

[Spitfire7]

Agree

What about this little gem:

"Schaefer: “I find it hard to believe that a judge was changed in the week leading up to the fight. That same judge scored the fight 114-113 for Pacquiao. There is no fight fan in the world that doesn’t want to see this again. We can all agree that there was controversy.”

And the fact that Arum became so incensed when Bereinsteing insinuated that the fix was on, he protested like a guilty man, like he knew they were up to something.


Although JMM did enough in my eyes to win the fight it was still very close an have no problems with PAC winning , the only problem I do have is that during my pre-fight predictons I stated that JMM had the cards stacked against him because Manny was the money-man.

ANd whether you guys want to believe it or not the judges are subconsciously biased in situations like this, it has been proven over
and over!

Another fishy thing is the way the Diaz contract was already before this fight even took place, which means things were already in motion
and what was suppossed to happen did.:deal


:patsch

:lol:

:rofl

[Brickhaus]

Another fishy thing is the way the Diaz contract was already before this fight even took place, which means things were already in motion
and what was suppossed to happen did.:deal

The contract was already in place for Margarito-Cotto, but that didn't exactly pan out as expected in another close fight with a Bob Arum fighter where the judges came out against his man.

Most boxing judges make better money judging than they do with their day jobs. If there's even a legitimate IMPLICATION that a judge is on the take, that judge is never going to get to judge a boxing match again. In this day and age, I just find it hard to believe that a boxing judge would risk $60+ thousand of supplemental income to take money to fix a fight, especially when their bank accounts are tracked by NSAC to ensure that there's no monkey business going on.

[Spitbucket]

So you guys are saying boxing is devoid of any funny-business:patsch

[Brickhaus]

So you guys are saying boxing is devoid of any funny-business:patsch

No, but I'm saying that the judges and refs aren't on the take in a Las Vegas fight. You can bank on that.

There are some shades of gray. Judges are hired by the promoters, and they do know who writes their paychecks. But for the most part, I don't think this influences the judging. What DOES happen is the promotional company will pick judges who tend to favor fighters of the type that the promoter is promoting. For instance, Duane Ford always has and always will favor strong punching over accurate punching. You can bet it was no accident that Arum chose him to be a judge for a Pacquiao match.

[johnco]

Agree

What about this little gem:

"Schaefer: “I find it hard to believe that a judge was changed in the week leading up to the fight. That same judge scored the fight 114-113 for Pacquiao. There is no fight fan in the world that doesn’t want to see this again. We can all agree that there was controversy.”

And the fact that Arum became so incensed when Bereinsteing insinuated that the fix was on, he protested like a guilty man, like he knew they were up to something.


Although JMM did enough in my eyes to win the fight it was still very close an have no problems with PAC winning , the only problem I do have is that during my pre-fight predictons I stated that JMM had the cards stacked against him because Manny was the money-man.

ANd whether you guys want to believe it or not the judges are subconsciously biased in situations like this, it has been proven over
and over!

Another fishy thing is the way the Diaz contract was already before this fight even took place, which means things were already in motion
and what was suppossed to happen did.:deal


and how do you explain this.... how will you count rd 3 then ;) :deal

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Spitbucket]

No, but I'm saying that the judges and refs aren't on the take in a Las Vegas fight. You can bank on that.

There are some shades of gray. Judges are hired by the promoters, and they do know who writes their paychecks. But for the most part, I don't think this influences the judging. What DOES happen is the promotional company will pick judges who tend to favor fighters of the type that the promoter is promoting. For instance, Duane Ford always has and always will favor strong punching over accurate punching. You can bet it was no accident that Arum chose him to be a judge for a Pacquiao match.

Never said the refs or judges were on the take.

BUt everything you posted afterwards is what I was talking about when I said that there are ways to stack things in a fighters favor.

Also, your second line basically agrees with what I said. These judges will for the most part try to remain impartiall but they are only human
and it's not a huge jump to say that they are at least sub-conciously
influenced!

[thanosone]

:good It asks the question whether judges actually know what the fuck theyre doing sometimes :nut

Personally, I can see why Marquez is pissed off, I had him winning both fights, and yet he gets nothing, Rafael can go smoke someones cock, rspected my ass!
I had him winning this fight by a point. How anyone can still say it could have gone either way boggles my mind. Paq was getting tagged so much in this fight. He hurt JMM with the KD and maybe like two other times. JMM was just a wiz sat night. He was robbed and Paq knew he lost the fight. It was close but JMM should have gotten rewarded for his performance.

[Ramshall1]

The dude just fought 12 brutal rounds and beleives he won, I think Rafael is going overboard in his critisism here.

[C Money]

"The disturbing thing was to hear the crybaby Marquez camp whining and complaining endlessly about the decision as though it was scandalous. They should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. It's one thing to proclaim victory and express disappointment in a close decision loss. It's another to imply that some kind of shadowy element had it in for you and that the judging was somehow not on the up and up. The Marquez camp was almost as bad a few weeks ago when Rafael Marquez, Juan's brother, lost a tough decision in his rubber match with Israel Vazquez.

There are fights in which certain scores are mind-blowing and you really have to question the competency of the judges. This was not one of them. It was merely a razor-close fight that was awesome to watch because it had many close rounds. Marquez really has only himself to blame for the defeat. If he didn't get knocked down, the fight would have been a draw and he would have kept his title. Sure, many ringside media had it for Marquez, but only by a point or two, and even those who had him winning didn't complain about the official decision."

Thoughts?

I absolutely agree with rafael on this one:good

It was close but Pac's power made the difference. No shame in either man's in ring performance, though no props to JMM afterwards:nono

[Spitbucket]

Did we forget all the whinning the Pac camp did after the first fight!

Of course a fighter is not gonna be happy when he feels deep in his heart that he won the fight and the judges score it for the other guy!

[Spitfire7]

Did we forget all the whinning the Pac camp did after the first fight!

Of course a fighter is not gonna be happy when he feels deep in his heart that he won the fight and the judges score it for the other guy!

Did Pac hint at some conspiracy or walked out of the presscon then???

:lol:

Precisely!:yep

[Spitbucket]

Did Pac hint at some conspiracy or walked out of the presscon then???

:lol:

Precisely!:yep


They did bitch and whine in their own little way:hi:

[punchdynamo]

Did we forget all the whinning the Pac camp did after the first fight!

Of course a fighter is not gonna be happy when he feels deep in his heart that he won the fight and the judges score it for the other guy!

Difference is that Pac did actually win the fight, even the judge owned up to the mistake he made. This was not subjective.

[Addie]

I've watch the fight about 10 times now... and the more i see it it's more clear that pac won it. It was close but pac won it... JMM won the 12th round no question... but Pac won the fight.

PAC won 1, 3, 4, 7, 9, 10, that rounds alone won him the fight. I even thought he won round 11...

That's where your card is wrong then. Marquez landed the only effective punch in round 1, and he also won round 11.

Anybody who had Pac winning needs to be hit with a brick.

[the_what]

Marquez is acting like a baby back bitch. Take the loss like a man. Dan Rafael is correct here.

[Spitbucket]

Difference is that Pac did actually win the fight, even the judge owned up to the mistake he made. This was not subjective.

Pure BIas


If you're gonna accept PAC as the official winner this fight then the last fight is an official draw!

Don't get iffy on me:yep

[Spitfire7]

They did bitch and whine in their own little way:hi:

..the key word being "little.":hey Aand the Indonesia debacle.

compare their (respective) team's sportsmanship in I & II. sportsmanship separates the men from the boys...:good

[Spitbucket]

Marquez is acting like a baby back bitch. Take the loss like a man. Dan Rafael is correct here.

Another hypocrite, didn't you whine about Pac not getting the verdict in their lst fight:huh

[Spitbucket]

..the key word being "little.":hey Aand the Indonesia debacle.

compare their (respective) team's sportsmanship in I & II. sportsmanship separates the men from the boys...:good

So the man feels he gets robbed twice(as a lot of people here seem to agree) and he's supposed to just sit there and take it.


Yeah, OK:roll:

[the_what]

Another hypocrite, didn't you whine about Pac not getting the verdict in their lst fight:huh

What?

[Boom_Boom]

That's where your card is wrong then. Marquez landed the only effective punch in round 1, and he also won round 11.

Anybody who had Pac winning needs to be hit with a brick.

You need to rewatch that round again pal

Let me know how much punches manny threw and landed and how many marquez threw and landed and then tell me all the effective shots that lands.

Pac lands 3 perfect straight lefts and JMM lands 1 perfect counter right. But all the attention is for that 1 JMM right.

anyone who cries robbery is not a true fan of this sport

[Spitfire7]

So the man feels he gets robbed twice(as a lot of people here seem to agree) and he's supposed to just sit there and take it.


Yeah, OK:roll:


people who lacked sportsmanship often feels "robbed," while others move along and fight their way back to respectability. JMM's gallant and skillful effort deserved mad respect. His team's post-fight attitude doesn't. End of story.:deal

[Spitbucket]

people who lacked sportsmanship often feels "robbed," while others move along and fight their way back to respectability. JMM's gallant and skillful effort deserved mad respect. His team's post-fight attitude doesn't. End of story.:deal

If you mean they are overeacting cause they feel they got robbed, You're wrong:deal

If you're talking about them walking out of the conference when Arum interrepted them and started cursing at them, then you're wrong again:deal

You have three choices in a situation like that, A) sit there and take it like a pussy, b) get up and proceed the beat the shit out of ARUM
C) speak your mind and walk away!

They did the right thing!:thumbsup

[CJLightweight]

Agree

What about this little gem:

"Schaefer: “I find it hard to believe that a judge was changed in the week leading up to the fight. That same judge scored the fight 114-113 for Pacquiao. There is no fight fan in the world that doesn’t want to see this again. We can all agree that there was controversy.”

And the fact that Arum became so incensed when Bereinsteing insinuated that the fix was on, he protested like a guilty man, like he knew they were up to something.


Although JMM did enough in my eyes to win the fight it was still very close an have no problems with PAC winning , the only problem I do have is that during my pre-fight predictons I stated that JMM had the cards stacked against him because Manny was the money-man.

ANd whether you guys want to believe it or not the judges are subconsciously biased in situations like this, it has been proven over
and over!

Another fishy thing is the way the Diaz contract was already before this fight even took place, which means things were already in motion
and what was suppossed to happen did.:deal

How can a scorecard of 114-113 be fixed when that score indicates that it was close and could have gone either way?

[chimba]

it must be frustrating for marquez, i mean, he is one of the few fighters that can acutally say he's never really gotten his ass beat or lost a fight and this bullshit keeps happening to him.......

it dont matter though, pac is moving up and marquez will still control the 130's....

Yoiu see anyone beyond JMM at 130..someone will have take that title from him (when he wins it back...)
Levuanos not the future imho.. I love Linares though if he moves to 130

[Spitfire7]

If you mean they are overeacting cause they feel they got robbed, You're wrong:deal

If you're talking about them walking out of the conference when Arum interrepted them and started cursing at them, then you're wrong again:deal

You have three choices in a situation like that, A) sit there and take it like a pussy, b) get up and proceed the beat the shit out of ARUM
C) speak your mind and walk away!

They did the right thing!:thumbsup

..and Arum having just smoked the peace pipe with gbp, have all the right to interrupt the bs that's being insinuated, when gbp, being co-promoters had equal say on the choice of judges...

..Pac was giving mad props to Jmm, and Jmm keeps the whining about "sorry me..." --a warrior giving just and due recognition to a fellow warrior as the other 'wag-rior',:hey er warrior, rants on... :yep

[chimba]

You need to rewatch that round again pal

Let me know how much punches manny threw and landed and how many marquez threw and landed and then tell me all the effective shots that lands.

Pac lands 3 perfect straight lefts and JMM lands 1 perfect counter right. But all the attention is for that 1 JMM right.

anyone who cries robbery is not a true fan of this sport

Funny thing is everyone knows that PAcs punches even grazing ones hurted more. Even the hater Steward brought that up ummm maybe a million times during the fight.

[Spitbucket]

How can a scorecard of 114-113 be fixed when that score indicates that it was close and could have gone either way?

Why do some of you insist on twisting words around, does that seem easier than actually reading the posts:huh

[punchdynamo]

Pure BIas


If you're gonna accept PAC as the official winner this fight then the last fight is an official draw!

Don't get iffy on me:yep

The official decision was a draw. The fact still remains that if the judging error wasn't made, Pac would've won. This was an scoring error admitted by the judge himself, not some subjective decision like Duane Ford scoring the 12th for JMM. Nuff said. Are you going to say that the round shouldn't have been a 10-6 round in the first fight?

[Spitfire7]

..now pray tell who sounds pathetic, eh?:good

someone's stock just got cheapened, and it ain't Pac's.

[Spitbucket]

You need to rewatch that round again pal

Let me know how much punches manny threw and landed and how many marquez threw and landed and then tell me all the effective shots that lands.

Pac lands 3 perfect straight lefts and JMM lands 1 perfect counter right. But all the attention is for that 1 JMM right.

anyone who cries robbery is not a true fan of this sport

I guess you were not a true boxing fan right after the first fight?:lol:

[Boom_Boom]

I guess you were not a true boxing fan right after the first fight?:lol:


the end of the week could not come any sooner for you buddy, but not bad you made a name for yourself in less than 300 posts

[thanosone]

I do realize your frustrations but for you to say that you had 1 guy winning by a single point and can't see how he lost doesn't make sense. This was an extremely close fight, people see things differently which might explain a 1-2 point disparity between your scoring and someone else's.
It was close because of the 10-8 round. JMM schooled him. I don't even like JMM so I am not being blinded by favorism. How did Paq win this fight?? The KD should not have been enough. Specially when he was being tagged by beautiful punches coming from crazy fucking angles. JMM deserved this one. Paq knew he lost. He kept smiling at the camera like I am okay but shit he was being taught a boxing lesson.

[chimba]

and how do you explain this.... how will you count rd 3 then ;) :deal

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

I can explain that..JMM holding himself up with the ropes aid..

[Spitbucket]

the end of the week could not come any sooner for you buddy, but not bad you made a name for yourself in less than 300 posts

Still wating for my humble pie but for some reason no one seems to be passing the plate:hi:

[CJLightweight]

I find it funny how they say that they had the score 114-113 for marquez(same as mine but it could have gone either way if i give that particular close round to pac), yet they seem to feel that there was a fix, a robbery and that they are killing boxing for it. Really funny:D:yep having it scored 114-113 and calling it robbery:rofl

[CJLightweight]

Why do some of you insist on twisting words around, does that seem easier than actually reading the posts:huh

You have to read what i quoted, i quoted the words of what schaefer said and not yours:nono

[CJLightweight]

Anyway no one yet answered the question..

now does a score of 114-113 look fixed?

[Spitbucket]

You have to read what i quoted, i quoted the words of what schaefer said and not yours:nono

Trust me, I read your post! Nowhere in Schaefer's quote does the word FIX come up, tha't why I accused you of twisting his words.

Here's the quote again:

Schaefer: “I find it hard to believe that a judge was changed in the week leading up to the fight. That same judge scored the fight 114-113 for Pacquiao. There is no fight fan in the world that doesn’t want to see this again. We can all agree that there was controversy.”:deal

[Boom_Boom]

Still wating for my humble pie but for some reason no one seems to be passing the plate:hi:

Im curious whats your opinion of In jin Chi

I think he was an overrated overachiever that was schooled by Morales and his fans are making the fight closer than it really was.

[johnco]

I can explain that..JMM holding himself up with the ropes aid..

thank you..

[Spitbucket]

Im curious whats your opinion of In jin Chi

I think he was an overrated overachiever that was schooled by Morales and his fans are making the fight closer than it really was.

I agree with you on your assesment of CHI, and the reason his fans feel that way is because Morales was supposed to have had any easy victory here but CHI proved himself very tenacious and made Erik work for his victory.

And I know where you're trying to go with this but it doesn't fly because in this case (JMM/PAC2) It's not only Marquez fans who felt he won, so did most of the viewing public and as you very well know, even some of your fellow PACfans, which is pretty unprecedented around here:deal

[CJLightweight]

Trust me, I read your post! Nowhere in Schaefer's quote does the word FIX come up, tha't why I accused you of twisting his words.

Here's the quote again:

Schaefer: “I find it hard to believe that a judge was changed in the week leading up to the fight. That same judge scored the fight 114-113 for Pacquiao. There is no fight fan in the world that doesn’t want to see this again. We can all agree that there was controversy.”:deal

Well what i meant there was the word controversy, he made it sound like the judge was fix to score a 114-113 fight where a lot of people have the score of 114-113 for either guy. 114-113 was the real score and no way 114-113 is fucking controversy or robbery.

[Spitbucket]

Well what i meant there was the word controversy, he made it sound like the judge was fix to score a 114-113 fight where a lot of people have the score of 114-113 for either guy. 114-113 was the real score and no way 114-113 is fucking controversy or robbery.

IMO, he was insinuating that some of the judging, this one in particular because of the circumstances, may have been biased in favor of Manny!


Any way, with that I'm out for a month of R & R!


PAC and JMM put on a great fight, let's hope they finish with a historic trilogy, I wish the best to both of them.


And no offense meant nor taken to anyone here, it's all been in fun.


Later:thumbsup

[Boom_Boom]

I agree with you on your assesment of CHI, and the reason his fans feel that way is because Morales was supposed to have had any easy victory here but CHI proved himself very tenacious and made Erik work for his victory.

And I know where you're trying to go with this but it doesn't fly because in this case (JMM/PAC2) It's not only Marquez fans who felt he won, so did most of the viewing public and as you very well know, even some of your fellow PACfans, which is pretty unprecedented around here:deal

You should of told me it was you dude, i would of let everything slide.

But come on you yourself has been saying for years, all Dinamita needs is another 12 rounds to pickup from the first fight and school Pacman without the huge 1st round lead. There was no schooling, and much like the 1st fight it was competitive for the entire fight.

[chimba]

Black!!!..geez stop using so many damn aliases lol

[Spitbucket]

And I have no idea who this "Black" is but you guys believe what you want.:think

Anyway, I did mean everything I said in my last post!:deal

Good luck to all of you as well!:thumbsup

[Marnoff]

Exactly. I think everyone is missing the point of this post. Rafael doesn't think it's a robbery even though he scored the fight for JMM. He realizes that the sport is very subjective, and that many of these rounds were close and could've gone either way. However, people on this board seem to overlook this. You could score all 12 rounds for 1 fighter. If all 12 of those rounds were close, you have to realize that it could've been scored the other way in every round.

Exactly. This is the subtle point that so many fail to see. The fact that people are asserting this to be a robbery just blows my mind at their stupidity. These idiots are admitting there were several close rounds, yet suggesting Marquez "definitely won by one-two points". It's difficult to comprehend this level of stupid.

[Chert]

it is very outrageous for beristain to claim that there is some "dark conspiracy" against him and the marquez bros by the WBC and the boxing establishment in general. it is irresponsible statements like this that destroy the sport's reputation and erode its fanbase.

[Farmboxer]

I think the judges were judging another fight, but HBO will show the replay this weekend.

[nighthunter]

It was damn hell of a fight but PAC win it 114-113 for me...

[theunderdog]

as i've said before, robbery is what one judge tried to do to christian mijares in his last fight. mijares clearly won that fight but the judge scored it as a shut out against him. this fight was no robbery. it was a close fight and everyone should just chill out

[Auracle21]

good time for a bump. retrospect

[FORMIDABLE]

Has Marquez ever attributed blame for him losing that SD to him getting knocked on his ass by Pac?

[Auracle21]

nah. he woudl have won the 2nd fight without the kd but he was caught.

[sunnn]

so whats the verdict on dan r., is he credible or not? ts should a poll on this.

[Goro]

People were way less subjective.

[Bee KeepZ]

"The disturbing thing was to hear the crybaby Marquez camp whining and complaining endlessly about the decision as though it was scandalous. They should be absolutely ashamed of themselves. It's one thing to proclaim victory and express disappointment in a close decision loss. It's another to imply that some kind of shadowy element had it in for you and that the judging was somehow not on the up and up. The Marquez camp was almost as bad a few weeks ago when Rafael Marquez, Juan's brother, lost a tough decision in his rubber match with Israel Vazquez.

There are fights in which certain scores are mind-blowing and you really have to question the competency of the judges. This was not one of them. It was merely a razor-close fight that was awesome to watch because it had many close rounds. Marquez really has only himself to blame for the defeat. If he didn't get knocked down, the fight would have been a draw and he would have kept his title. Sure, many ringside media had it for Marquez, but only by a point or two, and even those who had him winning didn't complain about the official decision."

Thoughts?

This was before BigRed and TooPretty lost their objectivity.