Is Pacquiao Approaching Legendary Status? Comparison to Leonard.

[PacDbest]

I just got it from Pacland, Very good comparison.

By JBOWYER of Pacland:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Not many fighters who have ever laced up a pair of can claim legendary status. Even among Hall of Fame boxers, this elite status has been granted to only a select few. In the modern era, the heavyweights are well represented in Ali, Louis, Patterson and Marciano. Sugar Ray Robinson and his amazing 173 wins makes the list, as does Willie Pep with his even more impressive 229 wins. After Manny Pacquiao’s razor thin victory of Juan Manual Marquez, I could not help but think that the Pacman’s career is starting to look similar to the last who, in my mind, could be called a boxing legend –Sugar Ray Leonard.

Before I get into the similarities in their careers, I need to offer my definition of “legendary”, since by my own admission it is a very subjective term. For the sake of argument, I use four criteria.

- First, a boxer must have Hall of fame level credentials in terms of record and skill inside the ring.

- Second, he must have fought – and won - against other HOF-level rivals over a long period of time. In my mind, guys like Roy Jones, Jr. and Tyson are not legends because they did not have the fortune of facing top-level competition in their primes. Other fighters, like Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns and Julio Cesar Chavez, came up just short because they could not finish off a rival.

- Third, he must have fought in memorable fights. Ali is a prime example. Would he be known as the best if his fights with Foreman, Norton, and Frazier were not all-time classics?

- And fourth, there must be an element of adversity in the boxer’s career. Again going back to Ali, his victories over Frazier were all the more dramatic because he lost the first fight with him.

Using these criteria, it is interesting to compare the career of Sugar Ray Leonard to the ongoing career of Manny Pacquaio. For this comparison, I will use what I consider the most productive periods of each of their careers. For Leonard, this starts in November, 1979 with his defeat of Wilfred Benitez and ends in June, 1989 with his controversial draw versus Thomas Hearns (6 years, 8 months if you take out the 3 years that he was inactive). For Pacquiao, I start in November, 2003 with his surprise defeat over Barrera up until last Sunday (4 years, 4 months). Over these periods, let’s look at the similarities of their careers.

RECORDS AND COMPETITION: In the period stated above, Leonard was 10-1-1 against fighters who had a combined record of 461-21-4 (or a 96% W-L ratio). He fought only one guy who had fought under 30 pro fights, and none of his opponents had over 4 losses. Pacquiao faced competition with a combined record of 528-43-9 (or a 92.5% W-L ratio). All his opponents had fought over 30 pro fights. It’s hard to ignore the similarities.

MULTIPLE WINS OVER TOP-LEVEL RIVALS: In the 1980s, Leonard came out on top of a stellar group of welterweights/middleweights. He held a 4-1-1 record versus the likes of Duran (2 fights), Hagler (1), Hearns (2), and Benitez (1), all of whom are Hall-of-Famers (Hearns will get in soon). The recent crop of featherweights/super Featherweights comes close to this level, and Manny can now make the claim that he stands at the top of this group. His 5-1-1 record versus Barrera (2 fights), Morales (3), and Marquez (2) is something special. This is similar to Leonard's accomplishment, although a point should be made that Leonard faced all those fighters in their primes, while Manny cannot make that claim.

MEMORABLE FIGHTS: Who remembers any Pernell Whitaker fights outside of hard-core boxing fans? Who is going to remember many PBF fights? Compare that to Leonard and Pacquiao. On ESPN Classic, you can still watch Leonard jump onto the ropes celebrating a breakout win over Benitez, while twenty years from now, fans of the "sweet science" will have a chance to watch Barrera’s corner mercifully throw in the towel in Manny’s huge breakout victory. Fight fans can still watch Leonard’s back-and-forth dramatic victory over Hearns, just as fans will be able to watch Pacquiao’s drama-filled slugfest with Morales in their second meeting. And, just as Leonard’s exciting and controversial win over Hagler is still heavily debated, Manny’s recent controversial win over Marquez will keep fans talking for years to come. Fights make legends, and both Leonard and Pacquiao have been involved in some of the most thrilling fights in the modern era.

ADVERSITY: Something about coming back from a loss or knockdown seems to elevate a fighter in the eyes of the public. Leonard’s “no mas” fight over Duran was all the more dramatic because he had lost to him by unanimous decision five months earlier. Pacquiao’s victories over Morales were so sweet because Morales had handed him a tough loss in their first fight.

As it stands now, Manny Pacquiao is a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame. Whether he can rise above that level to become a boxing legend will not be determined until after he hangs up his gloves, but this fan thinks that he is well on his way.

[kg0208]

The article is nearly unreadable and has some odd code stuck in it.

And I seriously stopped reading when he insinuated Pacquiao was a legend, but Roy Jones isn't. Is that me being a fan? Perhaps.....but I doubt many objective observers would agree with the author on that point.

[huki]

The article is nearly unreadable and has some odd code stuck in it.

And I seriously stopped reading when he insinuated Pacquiao was a legend, but Roy Jones isn't. Is that me being a fan? Perhaps.....but I doubt many objective observers would agree with the author on that point. No, it's you having a brain and boxing knowledge. :lol:

Pac is an ATG fighter, but he's not comparable to Leonard at this point and I highly doubt he will ever come close to being a top 25 ATG.

Jones and Tyson aren't legends? :rofl If the author wants to compare something, he should compare Pacquiao's H2H ability to these two without any biased opinions.

[theunderdog]

roy jones is not a legend? holy shroud.


oh and by the way pacd, i beat you in our head to head picks last week. we both picked luevano, diaz, and pac, but you chose bobpac and gabi. i chose their opponents.

where are my props at???

[PacDbest]

The article is nearly unreadable and has some odd code stuck in it.

And I seriously stopped reading when he insinuated Pacquiao was a legend, but Roy Jones isn't. Is that me being a fan? Perhaps.....but I doubt many objective observers would agree with the author on that point.

I fixed it. Or try the Pacland link.

[kg0208]

I fixed it. Or try the Pacland link.
Looks better and is readable now.

But in all honesty, I am not going to read an article that has criteria that would make Pacquiao a legend, but not Roy Jones Jr. Automatically I would disagree with the criteria and therefore the content of the article. So I can't give an objective opinion on the actual point of the article.

[PacDbest]

Looks better and is readable now.

But in all honesty, I am not going to read an article that has criteria that would make Pacquiao a legend, but not Roy Jones Jr. Already, that means I disagree with it's criteria and couldn't give an objective opinion on the actual point of the article.

It hurts huh??? but the author is telling the truth. RJJ is not as Legendary as Leonard. RJJ lacks a legendary Rival. It's a fact.

[Executioner]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[theunderdog]

It hurts huh??? but the author is telling the truth. RJJ is not as Legendary as Leonard. RJJ lacks a legendary Rival. It's a fact.

so explain how you picks gabi and bobpac got blown away inside three rounds total pacd. :nut

[jupzrooni]

I just got it from Pacland, Very good comparison.

By JBOWYER of Pacland:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Not many fighters who have ever laced up a pair of can claim legendary status. Even among Hall of Fame boxers, this elite status has been granted to only a select few. In the modern era, the heavyweights are well represented in Ali, Louis, Patterson and Marciano. Sugar Ray Robinson and his amazing 173 wins makes the list, as does Willie Pep with his even more impressive 229 wins. After Manny Pacquiao’s razor thin victory of Juan Manual Marquez, I could not help but think that the Pacman’s career is starting to look similar to the last who, in my mind, could be called a boxing legend –Sugar Ray Leonard.

Before I get into the similarities in their careers, I need to offer my definition of “legendary”, since by my own admission it is a very subjective term. For the sake of argument, I use four criteria.

- First, a boxer must have Hall of fame level credentials in terms of record and skill inside the ring.

- Second, he must have fought – and won - against other HOF-level rivals over a long period of time. In my mind, guys like Roy Jones, Jr. and Tyson are not legends because they did not have the fortune of facing top-level competition in their primes. Other fighters, like Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns and Julio Cesar Chavez, came up just short because they could not finish off a rival.

- Third, he must have fought in memorable fights. Ali is a prime example. Would he be known as the best if his fights with Foreman, Norton, and Frazier were not all-time classics?

- And fourth, there must be an element of adversity in the boxer’s career. Again going back to Ali, his victories over Frazier were all the more dramatic because he lost the first fight with him.

Using these criteria, it is interesting to compare the career of Sugar Ray Leonard to the ongoing career of Manny Pacquaio. For this comparison, I will use what I consider the most productive periods of each of their careers. For Leonard, this starts in November, 1979 with his defeat of Wilfred Benitez and ends in June, 1989 with his controversial draw versus Thomas Hearns (6 years, 8 months if you take out the 3 years that he was inactive). For Pacquiao, I start in November, 2003 with his surprise defeat over Barrera up until last Sunday (4 years, 4 months). Over these periods, let’s look at the similarities of their careers.

RECORDS AND COMPETITION: In the period stated above, Leonard was 10-1-1 against fighters who had a combined record of 461-21-4 (or a 96% W-L ratio). He fought only one guy who had fought under 30 pro fights, and none of his opponents had over 4 losses. Pacquiao faced competition with a combined record of 528-43-9 (or a 92.5% W-L ratio). All his opponents had fought over 30 pro fights. It’s hard to ignore the similarities.

MULTIPLE WINS OVER TOP-LEVEL RIVALS: In the 1980s, Leonard came out on top of a stellar group of welterweights/middleweights. He held a 4-1-1 record versus the likes of Duran (2 fights), Hagler (1), Hearns (2), and Benitez (1), all of whom are Hall-of-Famers (Hearns will get in soon). The recent crop of featherweights/super Featherweights comes close to this level, and Manny can now make the claim that he stands at the top of this group. His 5-1-1 record versus Barrera (2 fights), Morales (3), and Marquez (2) is something special. This is similar to Leonard's accomplishment, although a point should be made that Leonard faced all those fighters in their primes, while Manny cannot make that claim.

MEMORABLE FIGHTS: Who remembers any Pernell Whitaker fights outside of hard-core boxing fans? Who is going to remember many PBF fights? Compare that to Leonard and Pacquiao. On ESPN Classic, you can still watch Leonard jump onto the ropes celebrating a breakout win over Benitez, while twenty years from now, fans of the "sweet science" will have a chance to watch Barrera’s corner mercifully throw in the towel in Manny’s huge breakout victory. Fight fans can still watch Leonard’s back-and-forth dramatic victory over Hearns, just as fans will be able to watch Pacquiao’s drama-filled slugfest with Morales in their second meeting. And, just as Leonard’s exciting and controversial win over Hagler is still heavily debated, Manny’s recent controversial win over Marquez will keep fans talking for years to come. Fights make legends, and both Leonard and Pacquiao have been involved in some of the most thrilling fights in the modern era.

ADVERSITY: Something about coming back from a loss or knockdown seems to elevate a fighter in the eyes of the public. Leonard’s “no mas” fight over Duran was all the more dramatic because he had lost to him by unanimous decision five months earlier. Pacquiao’s victories over Morales were so sweet because Morales had handed him a tough loss in their first fight.

As it stands now, Manny Pacquiao is a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame. Whether he can rise above that level to become a boxing legend will not be determined until after he hangs up his gloves, but this fan thinks that he is well on his way.

another one of those wack pac nuthugger threads. the statement that i highlighted is the most ridiculous bullshit i've read.

[kg0208]

It hurts huh??? but the author is telling the truth. RJJ is not as Legendary as Leonard. RJJ lacks a legendary Rival. It's a fact.
No Jones is not as much of a legend as Leonard. But that isn't what I said I objected to now is it?

Pacquiao isn't as much of a legend as Jones OR Leonard, and for the author to insinuate that Pacquiao is a legend but Jones isn't is outright idiotic. Jones didn't have a rival because he didn't come close to losing until he was 34.....sure, that's something to hold against him:patsch

I will pick you apart on this subject PacD. Best to just enjoy Pacquiao's victory.

[acb]

It hurts huh??? but the author is telling the truth. RJJ is not as Legendary as Leonard. RJJ lacks a legendary Rival. It's a fact.

So Toney and B Hop aren't as legendary as Morales, Barrera, and Marquez?

Or are you discounting them because Roy pitched more dominant performances over them?

[PacDbest]

so explain how you picks gabi and bobpac got blown away inside three rounds total pacd. :nut

You're off topic little boy.:bbb

[kg0208]

You're off topic little boy.:bbb

So are you.

[PacDbest]

So Toney and B Hop aren't as legendary as Morales, Barrera, and Marquez?

Or are you discounting them because Roy pitched more dominant performances over them?

I didn't write it, if you want to response, follow the link at Pacland & BS there.

[kg0208]

I didn't write it, if you want to response, follow the link at Pacland & BS there.

You posted it here and posed the question. You wanted a response. Now you're getting it. Deal with it.

[acb]

I didn't write it, if you want to response, follow the link at Pacland & BS there.

If your claiming that I am bullshiting, then obviously you believe in the article and should willingly defend it.

Just your posting it makes the inference that you support its premise, being that its not from a source thats known for its jounalistic integrity.

[jupzrooni]

Roy Jones Jr. isn't a legend? since when? This article must be before he turned professional or something :rofl

Definitely some kind of disgustingly bad error in there. :yep

:yep

[PacDbest]

You posted it here and posed the question. You wanted a response. Now you're getting it. Deal with it.

I'm sharing an article to you guys. I'm at work right now, I'll check back with you later.

[kg0208]

I'm sharing an article to you guys. I'm at work right now, I'll check back with you later.
We are sharing our responses with you, which is generally what happens when you post something on a message board.

[angelos]

Im a Pacfan but i stopped reading after Roy Jones Jr. and Tyson being not a legend.

[theunderdog]

You're off topic little boy.:bbb

of course i am. just like how you are off topic when you drop your "i predicted donaire to win against Darchinyan" shit everytime you get pushed to a corner. all's fair pacd.

[1lehudson]

this stuff is getting close the being as dumb as the guy that once Posted here that Sven Ottke was a greater fighter then Ray Robinson.:roll:

[Shane]

Bias articles like this is what keep me away from Pacland, even though i respect Pac's talent's immensely.

[The Tuaman]

Manny Pacquiao, Bernard Hopkins, James Toney, Roy Jones Jnr, Evander Holyfield I could add to that list are our current crop of Active ATG's wether they become Legends is yet to be seen, Legends develop over time, Legends are guys who get talked about like Ali, Leonard, Frazier, Hearns etc etc throught generations they make us want to watch them fight even now. In 10-15 years time we'll no if Pacquiao, Hopkins, toney and company will become legends but at the moment they are ATG fighters. Top 10, Top25, Top 50 doesnt matter those guys will be and are ATG's fighters legends not quite yet.

Just my opinon now cut me to shreds for having one like everyone does on here tear everyone elses opinions up!

[Sweet Pea Pacquiao]

The article is not credible. Roy Jones, Jr., although having fought lesser competition on a WHOLE compared to Pacquiao, has enough marquee wins to at least match him (Toney, Hopkins, Tarver I, Ruiz at heavy). And besides Tarver I, the other names were all dominated by average margins of 10 rounds to 2.

Pacquiao has fought everyone under the sun from 122-130 except for Guzman and Valero, but his body of work speaks for itself. His marquee wins involve a mix of both KO's and dominant decisions as well. However, Pacquiao, unlike Jones, was never undisputed #1 pound-for-pound in the world.

If Pacquiao is a legend, so is Roy Jones and Mike Tyson.

And Pacquiao must dominate 135 to even warrant mentioning him in the same arena as Sugar Ray Leonard, who is easily Top 10 ALL-TIME.

[boxbox]

he's probably on his way...too early to talk about it, he might face a road bump anytime soon...and tyson and roy was very much underrated in that article

[MrSmall]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

[dangerousity]

Actually, the article is very objective and very well written. I disagree with Tyson & RJJ not being legends though, by the authors criteria they may not be, but by his criteria his argument is backed up very well...on the other hand I think some of those criterias are BS though.

[digiram]

The article is nearly unreadable and has some odd code stuck in it.

And I seriously stopped reading when he insinuated Pacquiao was a legend, but Roy Jones isn't. Is that me being a fan? Perhaps.....but I doubt many objective observers would agree with the author on that point.

I understand your argument. Roy Jones is a better boxer and more taleneted and skilled, overall. However, what the author states is kind of true when it comes to legendary status as a boxer for years to come. You should read the rest of the article at least before fully dismissing it. I have to kind of agree with him, even though I think Roy Jones, PBf, Sweet Pea, et al. are greater overall boxers.

[PacDbest]

Actually, the article is very objective and very well written. I disagree with Tyson & RJJ not being legends though, by the authors criteria they may not be, but by his criteria his argument is backed up very well...on the other hand I think some of those criterias are BS though.

I agree. The article makes a very good comparison between Pac & Leonard. He shouldn't have said RJJ, Tyson etc not a legend. Those guys have a Legend in their own right. But not as Complete as SRL & Pac because of the absence of legendary Rivals & Memorable fights in their careers..But he could have said that RJJ & Tyson etc legends didn't reach the Legendary status of a Leonard instead.

[Addie]

so explain how you picks gabi and bobpac got blown away inside three rounds total pacd. :nut

Pacman would only be comparable to Leonard if Leonard actually lost to Hearns twice but got the decision victory both times.

[KO Boxing]

I agree. The article makes a very good comparison between Pac & Leonard. He shouldn't have said RJJ, Tyson etc not a legend. Those guys have a Legend in their own right. But not as Complete as SRL & Pac because of the absence of legendary Rivals & Memorable fights in their careers..But he could have said that RJJ & Tyson etc legends didn't reach the Legendary status of a Leonard instead.
AAANND... Pac has yet to reach the legendary status of RJJ and Tyson. Right?

[PATSYS]

The parallelism of Pac's greatness to Leonard is very understandable. Add to that Marciano, Holyfield, Ali, Barrera, Morales, etc. They all have rivalries and their defeat do not diminish their greatness.

Roy Jones is also great but in a different way. His greatness is similar to that of Whitaker, PBF, Lewis, Tyson.

[hooligan]

tyson not a legend?

he was the youngest heavyweight champ, feared by ALL during his prime (except douglas lol), went into prison, got out and had multi million dollar fights...

if that aint a legend right there i dont know what is....

[Lampley]

The article doesn't merit serious argument.

The premise is flawed, because the author's criteria don't describe greatness -- they describe popularity.

Clearly, a fighter with a face-first style is going to have more memorable bouts that someone who relies on speed and reflexes to win with a combination of offense and defense. That's popularity.

So, does Manny have more memorable fights than Jones? Perhaps so. Why? Because whether Manny has lost or drawn or eeked out close decisions or dominated in victory, he's always getting hit and coming forward in the process.

Jones, meanwhile, completely dissected ATG opponents in fights that weren't particularly competitive.

In the author's mind, Legend = Popularity, not Greatness. In his next article, he should argue why Arturo Gatti is a more legendary fighter than Floyd Mayweather. More memorable fights and adversity, right?

Not only is Legend applied vaguely/inappropriately, the author can't find it within himself to remain consistent.

That's because he mentions the name Mike Tyson, who by his own criteria ought to be considered a legend. Rivals, great wins (at least early), explosive action, adversity, memorable bouts. Hell, Tyson's legend is greater than that of any active fighter, based on the author's criteria.

He's trying to backdoor Manny ahead of guys who clearly are better than him, but the only way he can do that is to compare them based on something other than competitive merit.

You see hack journalists attempt to do this stuff all the time, and on every single occasion, it underscores the opposite of what they're trying to argue.

Manny is a great fighter and will be remembered as such, and his fans need to leave it at that.

[kg0208]

I understand your argument. Roy Jones is a better boxer and more taleneted and skilled, overall. However, what the author states is kind of true when it comes to legendary status as a boxer for years to come. You should read the rest of the article at least before fully dismissing it. I have to kind of agree with him, even though I think Roy Jones, PBf, Sweet Pea, et al. are greater overall boxers.
There are many legendary boxers who don't have a serious rival. Foreman doesn't have a serious rival. Marciano doesn't have one. Lewis doesn't have one. Hopkins, Ricardo Lopez, etc.

What the article does is set a premise for legendary status which completely fits Pacquiao's background. An in your face, straight forward, action fighter who fights close fights and wars, with explosive endings being rewarded with a status that he dismisses for other more accomplished and greater fighters on the premise that they don't have rivals or aren't exceedingly popular. Greatness is decided by more than that, and it certainly isn't a popularity contest.

Leonard is on another level and the fighters he defeated were on an entirely different level than Barrera and Morales.

[TFFP]

Pacquiao and Leonard :rofl :lol: :rofl :lol:

What the fuck is up with these Asians

[boxbox]

Pacquiao and Leonard :rofl :lol: :rofl :lol:

What the fuck is up with these Asians


That closed minded huh? :tired the article was flawed, but there are still valid points he inserted and backed it up with reasonable opinions. :-(

[kg0208]

I agree. The article makes a very good comparison between Pac & Leonard. He shouldn't have said RJJ, Tyson etc not a legend. Those guys have a Legend in their own right. But not as Complete as SRL & Pac because of the absence of legendary Rivals & Memorable fights in their careers..But he could have said that RJJ & Tyson etc legends didn't reach the Legendary status of a Leonard instead.
As for you....not as COMPLETE as Pacquiao? Jones Jr is still on another level than Pacquiao. Using critera that benefits Pacquiao in the discussion isn't going to change anything. It is in essence the criteria for being a "popular" fighter, not a great fighter. And legacy isn't built on that, otherwise, DLH's legacy dwarfs everyone in the era.

Jones legacy isn't as complete because he doesn't have a rival? Tell me how having a rival is intricate to having a complete legacy. Tell me why dominance, virtuouso performances, multiple titles and clear and clean victories over ATG's (with no losses in those fights) aren't part of the equation.

[TFFP]

That closed minded huh? :tired the article was flawed, but there are still valid points he inserted and backed it up with reasonable opinions. :-(
No, it's completely fucking absurd whichever way I look at it. They think Leonard and Pacquiao can be reasonably compared even though the competition is worlds apart using some fucked up criteria suited to boost Pacquiao. That, and using the same fucked up logic RJJ and Tyson aren't greats, which in essence sums up how fucked up the aforementioned logic (or lack of it) is

Pile of wank, but not at all unexpected coming from Pac nutriders

[boxbox]

No, it's completely fucking absurd whichever way I look at it. They think Leonard and Pacquiao can be reasonably compared even though the competition is worlds apart using some fucked up criteria suited to boost Pacquiao. That, and using the same fucked up logic RJJ and Tyson aren't greats, which in essence sums up how fucked up the aforementioned logic (or lack of it) is

Pile of wank, but not at all unexpected coming from Pac nutriders

exactly. complete shutdown:yep

[Amsterdam]

Pac nuthuggers = Low Brow, a fine example of the term.

[johnco]

Pac nuthuggers = Low Brow, a fine example of the term.

bragging rights man... you dont have it :yep

3 time world chmapion. 2 lineal. :good
whooped 3 mexicos elite when they are still member of the pound per pond top ten. :good
downed the 3 elites with more than 10 KD official/unofficial :lol: :lol:

[kg0208]

That closed minded huh? :tired the article was flawed, but there are still valid points he inserted and backed it up with reasonable opinions. :-(

There are valid points to back up his reasoning. But the reasoning is flawed because the premise of the reasoning is to make Pacquiao seem greater than fighters he has not reached in status yet by tailoring the criteria towards him (Popularity, explosive fights, and rivalries instead of skill, dominance of top competition, and overall great fighting ability). Therefore, while the points may be valid in backing up his reasoning, his reasoning creates an unreasonable definition of greatness and therefore is a bit ridiculous. By his definition, Gatti is better Mayweather and DLH.

[Amsterdam]

bragging rights man... you dont have it :yep

A gift decision gives you nothing, tool.;)

I said that if Pac wins decisively, clear or by destruction, then he's P4P #1 and you get bragging rights. Instead, the decision went to the wrong man, that's not bragging rights, that's incompetent scoring.

[kg0208]

bragging rights man... you dont have it :yep
Not true. Based on the criteria that you have set forth for "bragging rights" which is basically backing up a fighter who keeps winning and therefore you can brag about it because somehow his accomplishments allows you to feel superior to others who aren't his fans, Amsterdam (a Calzaghe fan, and therefore a fan of an unbeaten fighter) has more bragging rights than you. As do all Mayweather fans.

[johnco]

A gift decision gives you nothing, tool.;)

nahhhh. sore loser. they just took your boys belt :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[KO Boxing]

Not true. Based on the criteria that you have set forth for "bragging rights" which is basically backing up a fighter who keeps winning and therefore you can brag about it because somehow his accomplishments allows you to feel superior to others who aren't his fans, Amsterdam (a Calzaghe fan, and therefore a fan of an unbeaten fighter) has more bragging rights than you. As do all Mayweather fans.
:yep

Mayweather fans have plenty more bragging rights.

P4P no. 1, best fighter of the generation
6 world titles, 5 weight division
and most importantly, UNDEFEATED

[randeris]

bragging rights man... you dont have it :yep

3 time world chmapion. 2 lineal. :good
whooped 3 mexicos elite when they are still member of the pound per pond top ten. :good
downed the 3 elites with more than 10 KD official/unofficial :lol: :lol:How the fuck do you get bragging rights? Did you fight Amsterdam for the title?

[johnco]

Not true. Based on the criteria that you have set forth for "bragging rights" which is basically backing up a fighter who keeps winning and therefore you can brag about it because somehow his accomplishments allows you to feel superior to others who aren't his fans, Amsterdam (a Calzaghe fan, and therefore a fan of an unbeaten fighter) has more bragging rights than you. As do all Mayweather fans.

we dont win sissy wins. we mix it with KD/TKO. and that constitute a part of bragging rights. 3 mexicos elite. still member of top ten pound per pound. total of 10 Plus KD/TKO. nough said :good

[johnco]

:yep

Mayweather fans have plenty more bragging rights.

P4P no. 1, best fighter of the generation
6 world titles, 5 weight division
and most importantly, UNDEFEATED

i dont care about PBF. he's my number 1.
they are different.

[KO Boxing]

we dont win sissy wins. we mix it with KD/TKO. and that constitute a part of bragging rights. 3 mexicos elite. still member of top ten pound per pound. total of 10 Plus KD/TKO. nough said :good
Was Morales still top 10 p4p after Raheem's schooling?

Did Pac really beat JMM?

:think

[kg0208]

we dont win sissy wins. we mix it with KD/TKO. and that constitute a part of bragging rights. 3 mexicos elite. still member of top ten pound per pound. total of 10 Plus KD/TKO. nough said :good
No no no.....you don't get to add onto it now.

And even if you did, we would hold LOSSES and close controversial decisions against you:deal So that would diminish your "bragging rights". Like I said, you don't have any in this instance. Don't be pissed because your own pseudo superiority came back to bite you in the ass. Sissy wins....perhaps you didn't see Calzaghe vs Lacy or Calzaghe vs Kessler.

Also, Calzaghe's 20 title defenses, dominance of his weight class, etc. And with Mayweather....lol, you're just outgunned.

[KO Boxing]

i dont care about PBF. he's my number 1.
they are different.
So wait?

Who's the bragging rights too?

This whole thing confuses me...:huh

[johnco]

Was Morales still top 10 p4p after Raheem's schooling?

Did Pac really beat JMM?

:think

when pac lost the fisrt time, em went back to low top 10.
and the rest was history ;)

[Amsterdam]

we dont win sissy wins. we mix it with KD/TKO. and that constitute a part of bragging rights. 3 mexicos elite. still member of top ten pound per pound. total of 10 Plus KD/TKO. nough said :good

He didn't beat Marquez in 2 fights mate, I don't care what the little SD decision says, it was not a decisive victory, it's a win on paper.

So add two old Mexican former elite's and a paper win over an aging Mexican elite.

Also add 1 loss to 1 old Mexican former elite. Bozo.:good

[KO Boxing]

when pac lost the fisrt time, em went back to low top 10.
and the rest was history ;)
When pac lost the first time, this was BEFORE the Raheem schooling. So I ask again, was EM still in the top ten p4p after the Raheem schooling (not just beating, SCHOOLING)?

I didn't, that's for sure.

[kg0208]

when pac lost the fisrt time, em went back to low top 10.
and the rest was history ;)

And then he lost to Raheem. AFTER that. If he was still top 10 after that, well then someone isn't very bright.

[boxbox]

There are valid points to back up his reasoning. But the reasoning is flawed because the premise of the reasoning is to make Pacquiao seem greater than fighters he has not reached in status yet by tailoring the criteria towards him (Popularity, explosive fights, and rivalries instead of skill, dominance of top competition, and overall great fighting ability). Therefore, while the points may be valid in backing up his reasoning, his reasoning creates an unreasonable definition of greatness and therefore is a bit ridiculous. By his definition, Gatti is better Mayweather and DLH.

i know Kg, but the way he analyzed it still has basis. Its his opinion, not facts. Didnt warrant the reaction that Asians are fucked up:huh




sorry, must have touched a very sensitive nerve in me.:nono

[johnco]

No no no.....you don't get to add onto it now.

And even if you did, we would hold LOSSES and close controversial decisions against you:deal So that would diminish your "bragging rights". Like I said, you don't have any in this instance. Don't be pissed because your own pseudo superiority came back to bite you in the ass. Sissy wins....perhaps you didn't see Calzaghe vs Lacy or Calzaghe vs Kessler.

nahhh. i dont live in my past especially if you are just starting.
and losing a close decision with a headbut is not my cup of tea
:rofl :rofl

you can encircle again the topic kg... it doesnt matter.
pac is now 2 time lineal champ and 3 time world champion. and soon he'll be getting his 4th :yep :yep

what pseudo superiority, you are not even close with me. all you have is boxing... :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl

[KO Boxing]

Didnt warrant the reaction that Asians are fucked up:huh

I don't think that was KG

I'm pretty sure that came from, wait for it... a BRIT

:scaredas:

[Amsterdam]

And then he lost to Raheem. AFTER that. If he was still top 10 after that, well then someone isn't very bright.

I really dislike these stupid fucking Pacqauio fans, they don't even care about boxing, just one of their ONLY national celebrities that is appreciated internationally.

They know NOTHING, but invade forums and spew unintelligible garble everywhere.

One even joined the Amir Khan forum, solely to post about Pac, WHY?:nut

[johnco]

He didn't beat Marquez in 2 fights mate, I don't care what the little SD decision says, it was not a decisive victory, it's a win on paper.

So add two old Mexican former elite's and a paper win over an aging Mexican elite.

Also add 1 loss to 1 old Mexican former elite. Bozo.:good

drop that pipe dumbo. pac's win is already in the record book :lol: :lol:
and your poor boy got KD and dropped like a lumber luckily his ass was saved by the bell :rofl :rofl
your talking about ems win with a headbut? :lol: :lol:
3 of mexicos elite.... nough said. :good

[KO Boxing]

nahhh. i dont live in my past especially if you are just starting.
and losing a close decision with a headbut is not my cup of tea
:rofl :rofl

you can encircle again the topic kg... it doesnt matter.
pac is now 2 time lineal champ and 3 time world champion. and soon he'll be getting his 4th :yep :yep

what pseudo superiority, you are not even close with me. all you have is boxing... :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
I honestly can't even understand over 50% of what you write in your posts anymore.

Are you saying that you have bragging rights to US, ESB members? Or to Pac's opponents? Or to who? I don't get it.

Pac is also not the ONLY 2 time lineal champ and 3 time world champ. So I don't see what you are trying to say there.

Oh, and of course Pac's losses are not your cup of tea. That's been clear since your very first post.

[johnco]

I really dislike these stupid fucking Pacqauio fans, they don't even care about boxing, just one of their ONLY national celebrities that is appreciated internationally.

They know NOTHING, but invade forums and spew unintelligible garble everywhere.

One even joined the Amir Khan forum, solely to post about Pac, WHY?:nut

we dont know nothing or you are a sorry ass loser that doesnt have any bragging rights. :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
if you have this come back to me. bye for now. :good

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[KO Boxing]

just one of their ONLY national celebrities that is appreciated internationally.

This is simply what it's ALL about.

Not boxing.

They just want their national celeb to be given as much recognition as possible on the global scale.

Little do they know that their little "rants" are doing MUCH MUCH worse than good.

[TFFP]

I didn't say all Asians are fucked up, Pac's demented fans are fucked up, most of which happen to be Asian

They swarm on here with all the boxing knowledge of a lump of horse turd. I love Pac, he makes me money and vCash, his fans are too much

Better be careful, I got banned for less the other day, when Relentless and co get away with homo jibes :-(

[kg0208]

nahhh. i dont live in my past especially if you are just starting.
and losing a close decision with a headbut is not my cup of tea
:rofl :rofl

you can encircle again the topic kg... it doesnt matter.
pac is now 2 time lineal champ and 3 time world champion. and soon he'll be getting his 4th :yep :yep

what pseudo superiority, you are not even close with me. all you have is boxing... :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
I don't need to encircle you. You know you're a hypocrite. If you don't count Morales decision over Pacquiao because of the headbutt, then you shouldn't be ranting about the win over Marquez. So you encircled yourself....you're either a hypocrite or just not very bright.

And Pacquiao is a 3 time lineal champion. Damn, get it straight. And he isn't getting a 4th.

All I have is boxing? Exactly what is it you have that I don't? Specifics please (which will be hard since you don't know much about me). You don't even have boxing, you just have Pacquiao.

[kg0208]

i know Kg, but the way he analyzed it still has basis. Its his opinion, not facts. Didnt warrant the reaction that Asians are fucked up:huh




sorry, must have touched a very sensitive nerve in me.:nono

Well I wouldn't say Asians are fucked up. Johnco seems to be, so does PacD and the guy who wrote that article.

[boxbox]

I don't think that was KG

I'm pretty sure that came from, wait for it... a BRIT

:scaredas:

no it wasnt Kg...

[DobyZhee]

a guy has to copy and paste biased thoughts for his own and bring it over here. Typical nuthugging fan.

Pac isn't worthy to wrap SRL's handwraps. Get this nonsense outta here.

[Morrissey]

I just got it from Pacland, Very good comparison.

By JBOWYER of Pacland:
[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Not many fighters who have ever laced up a pair of can claim legendary status. Even among Hall of Fame boxers, this elite status has been granted to only a select few. In the modern era, the heavyweights are well represented in Ali, Louis, Patterson and Marciano. Sugar Ray Robinson and his amazing 173 wins makes the list, as does Willie Pep with his even more impressive 229 wins. After Manny Pacquiao’s razor thin victory of Juan Manual Marquez, I could not help but think that the Pacman’s career is starting to look similar to the last who, in my mind, could be called a boxing legend –Sugar Ray Leonard.

Before I get into the similarities in their careers, I need to offer my definition of “legendary”, since by my own admission it is a very subjective term. For the sake of argument, I use four criteria.

- First, a boxer must have Hall of fame level credentials in terms of record and skill inside the ring.

- Second, he must have fought – and won - against other HOF-level rivals over a long period of time. In my mind, guys like Roy Jones, Jr. and Tyson are not legends because they did not have the fortune of facing top-level competition in their primes. Other fighters, like Marvin Hagler, Thomas Hearns and Julio Cesar Chavez, came up just short because they could not finish off a rival.

- Third, he must have fought in memorable fights. Ali is a prime example. Would he be known as the best if his fights with Foreman, Norton, and Frazier were not all-time classics?

- And fourth, there must be an element of adversity in the boxer’s career. Again going back to Ali, his victories over Frazier were all the more dramatic because he lost the first fight with him.

Using these criteria, it is interesting to compare the career of Sugar Ray Leonard to the ongoing career of Manny Pacquaio. For this comparison, I will use what I consider the most productive periods of each of their careers. For Leonard, this starts in November, 1979 with his defeat of Wilfred Benitez and ends in June, 1989 with his controversial draw versus Thomas Hearns (6 years, 8 months if you take out the 3 years that he was inactive). For Pacquiao, I start in November, 2003 with his surprise defeat over Barrera up until last Sunday (4 years, 4 months). Over these periods, let’s look at the similarities of their careers.

RECORDS AND COMPETITION: In the period stated above, Leonard was 10-1-1 against fighters who had a combined record of 461-21-4 (or a 96% W-L ratio). He fought only one guy who had fought under 30 pro fights, and none of his opponents had over 4 losses. Pacquiao faced competition with a combined record of 528-43-9 (or a 92.5% W-L ratio). All his opponents had fought over 30 pro fights. It’s hard to ignore the similarities.

MULTIPLE WINS OVER TOP-LEVEL RIVALS: In the 1980s, Leonard came out on top of a stellar group of welterweights/middleweights. He held a 4-1-1 record versus the likes of Duran (2 fights), Hagler (1), Hearns (2), and Benitez (1), all of whom are Hall-of-Famers (Hearns will get in soon). The recent crop of featherweights/super Featherweights comes close to this level, and Manny can now make the claim that he stands at the top of this group. His 5-1-1 record versus Barrera (2 fights), Morales (3), and Marquez (2) is something special. This is similar to Leonard's accomplishment, although a point should be made that Leonard faced all those fighters in their primes, while Manny cannot make that claim.

MEMORABLE FIGHTS: Who remembers any Pernell Whitaker fights outside of hard-core boxing fans? Who is going to remember many PBF fights? Compare that to Leonard and Pacquiao. On ESPN Classic, you can still watch Leonard jump onto the ropes celebrating a breakout win over Benitez, while twenty years from now, fans of the "sweet science" will have a chance to watch Barrera’s corner mercifully throw in the towel in Manny’s huge breakout victory. Fight fans can still watch Leonard’s back-and-forth dramatic victory over Hearns, just as fans will be able to watch Pacquiao’s drama-filled slugfest with Morales in their second meeting. And, just as Leonard’s exciting and controversial win over Hagler is still heavily debated, Manny’s recent controversial win over Marquez will keep fans talking for years to come. Fights make legends, and both Leonard and Pacquiao have been involved in some of the most thrilling fights in the modern era.

ADVERSITY: Something about coming back from a loss or knockdown seems to elevate a fighter in the eyes of the public. Leonard’s “no mas” fight over Duran was all the more dramatic because he had lost to him by unanimous decision five months earlier. Pacquiao’s victories over Morales were so sweet because Morales had handed him a tough loss in their first fight.

As it stands now, Manny Pacquiao is a shoe-in for the Hall of Fame. Whether he can rise above that level to become a boxing legend will not be determined until after he hangs up his gloves, but this fan thinks that he is well on his way.

The guy is smoking a pipe while he was writing this...:deal

[brooklyn1550]

This article should stay in Pacland

[PacDbest]

As for you....not as COMPLETE as Pacquiao? Jones Jr is still on another level than Pacquiao. Using critera that benefits Pacquiao in the discussion isn't going to change anything. It is in essence the criteria for being a "popular" fighter, not a great fighter. And legacy isn't built on that, otherwise, DLH's legacy dwarfs everyone in the era.

Jones legacy isn't as complete because he doesn't have a rival? Tell me how having a rival is intricate to having a complete legacy. Tell me why dominance, virtuouso performances, multiple titles and clear and clean victories over ATG's (with no losses in those fights) aren't part of the equation.

Did you read the article or you stopped coz it's hurting you???

It's clear, he mentioned that DLH, has the resume but... He can't win the Big one. RJJ as I mentioned was a Legend in his own rights, look ahead 20 years from now. What will instantly came up in your mind when somebody ask "What's RJJ Greatest fight???" The most Memorable part of RJJ Highlight reels was the Tarver One Punch KO. He will be forever remember for that.

20 years from now, ask any boxing fans about Pacquiao. Ask How Great he is. Ask what legendary Fights he's had. I know I have a lot to say, and It's all Great stuff.

[KO Boxing]

Did you read the article or you stopped coz it's hurting you???

It's clear, he mentioned that DLH, has the resume but... He can't win the Big one. RJJ as I mentioned was a Legend in his own rights, look ahead 20 years from now. What will instantly came up in your mind when somebody ask "What's RJJ Greatest fight???" The most Memorable part of RJJ Highlight reels was the Tarver One Punch KO. He will be forever remember for that.

20 years from now, ask any boxing fans about Pacquiao. Ask How Great he is. Ask what legendary Fights he's had. I know I have a lot to say, and It's all Great stuff.
Pac will definately be remembered for his great fights, no doubt. :good

But I think a fighter is perhaps more "legendary" when their "greatest" fight isn't a "great" fight at all (really), but rather a domination or masterpiece over another great fighter.

If Roy had a brawl with, say, Toney, where the fight coulda gone either way, and warranted a rematch or two - would he be greater than what he is for completely dominating him?

Or does Roy get penalised for his complete domination of his opponent?

I say no. Domination of great fighters is better than going toe to toe with great fighters, imo.

[kg0208]

Did you read the article or you stopped coz it's hurting you???

It's clear, he mentioned that DLH, has the resume but... He can't win the Big one. RJJ as I mentioned was a Legend in his own rights, look ahead 20 years from now. What will instantly came up in your mind when somebody ask "What's RJJ Greatest fight???" The most Memorable part of RJJ Highlight reels was the Tarver One Punch KO. He will be forever remember for that.

20 years from now, ask any boxing fans about Pacquiao. Ask How Great he is. Ask what legendary Fights he's had. I know I have a lot to say, and It's all Great stuff.
:lol::lol:

How would you know Jones Jr most memorable moment in the ring? You weren't watching boxing before the 2003 match between MAB and Pacquiao.

Tell me, why is the most memorable moment of RJJ's highlight reel the Tarver KO? Is it because it helps and supports the article? Is the most memorable moment in the Pacquiao highlight reel when he keels over from a body shot and crumples to the canvas? How many Jones Jr fights have you seen? How transparent of you to remember the Pacquiao KO's but not the many KO's and spectacular performances of a fighter who named fighter of the decade for the 90's and dominated 3 divisions, AND actually fought men bigger than him. But you can't remember, because you didn't see him.

Did you comprehend what everyone here is saying, or did you ignore it because they posted realistic arguments against the article and bring you back to earth from your distorted view point on where Pacquiao stands in comparison to the greats before him. Greatness btw, is not defined by how many memorable close fights you have. Its about winning and accomplishments in the ring.

[PATSYS]

The article is flawed. If rivalries is such a huge criteria for being legends, Gatti and Ward would rank higher than Jones.

[PacDbest]

:lol::lol:

How would you know Jones Jr most memorable moment in the ring? You weren't watching boxing before the 2003 match between MAB and Pacquiao.

Tell me, why is the most memorable moment of RJJ's highlight reel the Tarver KO? Is it because it helps and supports the article? Is the most memorable moment in the Pacquiao highlight reel when he keels over from a body shot and crumples to the canvas? How many Jones Jr fights have you seen? How transparent of you to remember the Pacquiao KO's but not the many KO's and spectacular performances of a fighter who named fighter of the decade for the 90's and dominated 3 divisions, AND actually fought men bigger than him. But you can't remember, because you didn't see him.

Did you comprehend what everyone here is saying, or did you ignore it because they posted realistic arguments against the article and bring you back to earth from your distorted view point on where Pacquiao stands in comparison to the greats before him. Greatness btw, is not defined by how many memorable close fights you have. Its about winning and accomplishments in the ring.

True, during RJJ reign, I was not watching boxing. Coz I thought there's nobody there as great as SRL, Duran & Hearns.

The 1st time I saw the tape of Pac-MAB, My immediate reaction for Pac was, wow!!!! That's SRLnesque!! That's like a Macho Duran!!! Instant fan right away.

I've been seeing RJJ highlights on ESPN. Some documentaries etc. But I can't be drawn to watch him. Coz it's a turn off when everytime he was being interviewed in ESPN, it's like he flip-flop on the rematches with Tarver & Bhop. Then finally I first saw a Full RJJ fight , Daym!!! He Got TKFO in 2 by Tarver. Then The next ... Daym another one. Then another lost to Tarver.

That's the difference between the Pac KO loss & RJJ KO loss. Pac was still unknown & very young when it Happens. RJJ KO happened in the Mainsteam PPV shows, in supposed to be their near Prime years. That's where they will be remembered, The fights that is relevant & in the elite level.

Pac will be remembered in his KO wins against Ledwaba, Sasakul, MAB & EM , The Dramatic Loss to EM where he showed Heart, Dramatic Draw & another close win with JMM. All of these against equally Legendary fighters. What can you call Tarver & Glen johnson??? Forget about the Legend word for those guys. It doesn't apply.

[PacDbest]

The article is flawed. If rivalries is such a huge criteria for being legends, Gatti and Ward would rank higher than Jones.

You don't get it. Gatti & Ward are close to a Club fighter than Legendary fighters. Pac, EM, MAB & JMM are all legendary fighters. There's a Big difference.

[Sweet Pea Pacquiao]

He didn't beat Marquez in 2 fights mate, I don't care what the little SD decision says, it was not a decisive victory, it's a win on paper.

So add two old Mexican former elite's and a paper win over an aging Mexican elite.

Also add 1 loss to 1 old Mexican former elite. Bozo.:good
Your argument is as bitter as PacD's is biased. Don't be mad because you were wrong.

Pacquiao is Top 50 ATG easy after this win.

But definitely not Top 25, either. To do that, he must:

1) earn the undisputed #1 P4P spot at some point before he retires, or
2) clean house at 135 (beat Campbell, Juan Diaz, JMM moving up in a 3rd bout)

Even then, PacD, I don't think that would still be enough to put him ahead or even equal to SRL. To do that he would have to beat Hatton or whoever the champ is at 140, making him a true 6-weight champ. And unfortunately, I don't see that happening.

[kg0208]

True, during RJJ reign, I was not watching boxing. Coz I thought there's nobody there as great as SRL, Duran & Hearns.

The 1st time I saw the tape of Pac-MAB, My immediate reaction for Pac was, wow!!!! That's SRLnesque!! That's like a Macho Duran!!! Instant fan right away.

I've been seeing RJJ highlights on ESPN. Some documentaries etc. But I can't be drawn to watch him. Coz it's a turn off when everytime he was being interviewed in ESPN, it's like he flip-flop on the rematches with Tarver & Bhop. Then finally I first saw a Full RJJ fight , Daym!!! He Got TKFO in 2 by Tarver. Then The next ... Daym another one. Then another lost to Tarver.

That's the difference between the Pac KO loss & RJJ KO loss. Pac was still unknown & very young when it Happens. RJJ KO happened in the Mainsteam PPV shows, in supposed to be their near Prime years. That's where they will be remembered, The fights that is relevant & in the elite level.

Pac will be remembered in his KO wins against Ledwaba, Sasakul, MAB & EM , The Dramatic Loss to EM where he showed Heart, Dramatic Draw & another close win with JMM. All of these against equally Legendary fighters. What can you call Tarver & Glen johnson??? Forget about the Legend word for those guys. It doesn't apply.
Never talk again PacD. Never....just leave the site :rofl:rofl:rofl

Jones had been fighting for 15 years when he finally lost, was 34 and past his prime, and because it was on TV, it is more significant than Pacquiao getting KO'd because it wasn't on TV or PPV? :rofl:rofl Perhaps I should only watch the two fights where Pacquiao was KO'd and then say, "Oh wow, he sucks." You have never seen a Jones fight in his prime, and yet here you are dismissing how good he was based on his losses at 34 and 35? BTW, the 2 guys who stopped Jones are far better known than the fighters who stopped Pacquiao right? So your comparison is grossly invalid. But I think you know that.....you didn't compare the best fighters Jones beat with the best fighters Pacquiao beat. You compared the fighters who beat Jones with the fighters Pacquiao defeated.

This post proves what I have said all along. You know absolutely nothing about boxing in general. The truth hurts son, and everytime you speak from now on, I will remind you of the rubbish you just posted.

Lastly, if Jones won't be remembered as a legend, but Pacquiao will, why is it the people who will be doing the remembering (the fans, you know, the people who post here) are all telling you that you're out of your mind? Remember, you're a Pacquiao fan far more than you are a boxing fan. And when he stops boxing, you will stop watching. So you know nothing about what boxing fans think....only Pacquiao fans, and apparently looking at this thread, not even most of them on this subject. Oddly enough, you claim to have stopped watching boxing in the 90's because there was no one as good as SRL and Duran and Hearns. How would you know? YOU WEREN'T WATCHING:lol::lol:

[KO Boxing]

True, during RJJ reign, I was not watching boxing. Coz I thought there's nobody there as great as SRL, Duran & Hearns.

The 1st time I saw the tape of Pac-MAB, My immediate reaction for Pac was, wow!!!! That's SRLnesque!! That's like a Macho Duran!!! Instant fan right away.

I've been seeing RJJ highlights on ESPN. Some documentaries etc. But I can't be drawn to watch him. Coz it's a turn off when everytime he was being interviewed in ESPN, it's like he flip-flop on the rematches with Tarver & Bhop. Then finally I first saw a Full RJJ fight , Daym!!! He Got TKFO in 2 by Tarver. Then The next ... Daym another one. Then another lost to Tarver.

That's the difference between the Pac KO loss & RJJ KO loss. Pac was still unknown & very young when it Happens. RJJ KO happened in the Mainsteam PPV shows, in supposed to be their near Prime years. That's where they will be remembered, The fights that is relevant & in the elite level.

Pac will be remembered in his KO wins against Ledwaba, Sasakul, MAB & EM , The Dramatic Loss to EM where he showed Heart, Dramatic Draw & another close win with JMM. All of these against equally Legendary fighters. What can you call Tarver & Glen johnson??? Forget about the Legend word for those guys. It doesn't apply.
Wow. Very ill-informed regarding Jones, that's all I will say. And VERY unfortunate that your very first Jones fight happened to be Tarver 2. The guy was a thing of beauty in his day.

[kg0208]

Wow. Very ill-informed regarding Jones, that's all I will say. And VERY unfortunate that your very first Jones fight happened to be Tarver 2. The guy was a thing of beauty in his day.
He has access to other fights. He is purposefully ignoring the glaring weaknesses in his argument so as not to address them. There are Jones fights all over youtube, in his PRIME.

[Silvermags]

Currently, I have RJJ ahead of pac. On my book, if Pac beats JMM convincingly on their their fight hopefully with this year and cleans the 135lbs category I will have PAC ahead of RJJ.

If he wins those fights then we are in for a good and long arguement with the RJJ fans!

Oh lastly, I believe pac should also fight Guzman coz if he wins over JMM and moves to 135lbs and wins over Diaz. Guzman fans will surely CLAIM pac is avoiding him.

I would like pac to fight JMM (if he wins) then fights Guzman (if he wins) fight at 135lbs BUT NOT DAVID DIAZ IMMEDIATLY.

It's like feeding pac in a lions den! Let pac taste the waters first before testing him with the CHAMP! Why rush him anyway?

But first things first. He should win in the PAC vs jmm III. I mean win CONVINCINGLY!

[kg0208]

Currently, I have RJJ ahead of pac. On my book, if Pac beats JMM convincingly on their their fight hopefully with this year and cleans the 135lbs category I will have PAC ahead of RJJ.

If he wins those fights then we are in for a good and long arguement with the RJJ fans!

Oh lastly, I believe pac should also fight Guzman coz if he wins over JMM and moves to 135lbs and wins over Diaz. Guzman fans will surely CLAIM pac is avoiding him.

I would like pac to fight JMM (if he wins) then fights Guzman (if he wins) fight at 135lbs BUT NOT DAVID DIAZ IMMEDIATLY.

It's like feeding pac in a lions den! Let pac taste the waters first before testing him with the CHAMP! Why rush him anyway?

But first things first. He should win in the PAC vs jmm III. I mean win CONVINCINGLY!

If Pacquiao cleans out 135, that is a WHOLE nother story. But he hasn't even decisively cleaned out 130.

And if we start counting beating past their prime greats (JMM is gonna be 35 or 36 next time they fight), then Jones fans get to start talkin about Mike McCallum and Jones' win over him, and his win over Trinidad too....do you think that's fair?

[dave82]

True, during RJJ reign, I was not watching boxing. Coz I thought there's nobody there as great as SRL, Duran & Hearns.

The 1st time I saw the tape of Pac-MAB, My immediate reaction for Pac was, wow!!!! That's SRLnesque!! That's like a Macho Duran!!! Instant fan right away.

I've been seeing RJJ highlights on ESPN. Some documentaries etc. But I can't be drawn to watch him. Coz it's a turn off when everytime he was being interviewed in ESPN, it's like he flip-flop on the rematches with Tarver & Bhop. Then finally I first saw a Full RJJ fight , Daym!!! He Got TKFO in 2 by Tarver. Then The next ... Daym another one. Then another lost to Tarver.

That's the difference between the Pac KO loss & RJJ KO loss. Pac was still unknown & very young when it Happens. RJJ KO happened in the Mainsteam PPV shows, in supposed to be their near Prime years. That's where they will be remembered, The fights that is relevant & in the elite level.

Pac will be remembered in his KO wins against Ledwaba, Sasakul, MAB & EM , The Dramatic Loss to EM where he showed Heart, Dramatic Draw & another close win with JMM. All of these against equally Legendary fighters. What can you call Tarver & Glen johnson??? Forget about the Legend word for those guys. It doesn't apply.

The 4th paragraph shows how little you actually know. All you seem to do is pollute this site with Pac-absorbed sewage.

[PacDbest]

Never talk again PacD. Never....just leave the site :rofl:rofl:rofl

Jones had been fighting for 15 years when he finally lost, was 34 and past his prime, and because it was on TV, it is more significant than Pacquiao getting KO'd because it wasn't on TV or PPV? :rofl:rofl Perhaps I should only watch the two fights where Pacquiao was KO'd and then say, "Oh wow, he sucks." You have never seen a Jones fight in his prime, and yet here you are dismissing how good he was based on his losses at 34 and 35? BTW, the 2 guys who stopped Jones are far better known than the fighters who stopped Pacquiao right? So your comparison is grossly invalid. But I think you know that.....you didn't compare the best fighters Jones beat with the best fighters Pacquiao beat. You compared the fighters who beat Jones with the fighters Pacquiao defeated.

This post proves what I have said all along. You know absolutely nothing about boxing in general. The truth hurts son, and everytime you speak from now on, I will remind you of the rubbish you just posted.

Lastly, if Jones won't be remembered as a legend, but Pacquiao will, why is it the people who will be doing the remembering (the fans, you know, the people who post here) are all telling you that you're out of your mind? Remember, you're a Pacquiao fan far more than you are a boxing fan. And when he stops boxing, you will stop watching. So you know nothing about what boxing fans think....only Pacquiao fans, and apparently looking at this thread, not even most of them on this subject. Oddly enough, you claim to have stopped watching boxing in the 90's because there was no one as good as SRL and Duran and Hearns. How would you know? YOU WEREN'T WATCHING:lol::lol:


Here's how it's written in History, From Wikipedia, The most Popular in the net.

Look which fights were highlighted with RJJ, Read both & Compare. If you are new to boxing 20 years from now, who do you think will be the greater fighter by just reading the Wiki info???

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[kg0208]

Here's how it's written in History, From Wikipedia, The most Popular in the net.

Look which fights were highlighted with RJJ, Read both & Compare. If you are new to boxing 20 years from now, who do you think will be the greater fighter by just reading the Wiki info???

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]
Pacquiao doesn't have any fights highlighted. Just different sections on his career. Jones has different sections AND fights highlighted.

Not to mention, why the hell would they just read the one part PacD? If they were boxing fans looking up both fighters, they are going to read ALL OF IT.

[KO Boxing]

You can't be serious. Using Wikipedia as a basis for your arguement shows that you're just fishing for ammo. This is so lame.
:lol: true that. I don't know anyone who started boxing by first going to wikipedia. Of all places.

:patsch

[PacDbest]

You can't be serious. Using Wikipedia as a basis for your arguement shows that you're just fishing for ammo. This is so lame.

Where do you think history will be written??? hERE IN esb FORUM???

[kg0208]

Where do you think history will be written??? hERE IN esb FORUM???

How is it any different? Who do you think writes those things in Wikipedia? Boxing historians? No, boxing fans. Guess who comes here....duh.

And it didn't even support your argument. The would read the whole article, not just specified parts that say Jones lost. And they don't even have specified sections for Pacquiaos fights, just seperate parts of his career, just like they do for Jones. Jones has extra sections.....

[dave82]

Wiki is a good source to use as a reference. It's written by it's users and updated frequently. But if someone were trying to learn about boxing they should have enough sense to WATCH VIDEOS. To understand how great a fighter was you would have to actually watch him in action right? I can read about all the past fighters on Wikipedia all week long but I still won't have a full grasp of how good they are unless I saw how they actually performed.

Ahhhh. I knew there was a wise Pac supporter on this site. :good

[Carlos Primera]

that article was nothing but horse shit.

[Toopretty]

Pac fans are lunatics. But Pac will be remembered in boxing for a long time. His nutball fans will make sure of that.

[Silvermags]

If Pacquiao cleans out 135, that is a WHOLE nother story. But he hasn't even decisively cleaned out 130.

And if we start counting beating past their prime greats (JMM is gonna be 35 or 36 next time they fight), then Jones fans get to start talkin about Mike McCallum and Jones' win over him, and his win over Trinidad too....do you think that's fair?

Yup! you are correct! Die hard fans wether it be RJJ or others would always have the last say on thier favorite boxer including us pac fans;) !

In reality it's really hard to find out who is better coz two persons could be looking at the same thing but views it differently. Remember the glass with 50% water on it. Is it Half filled or half empty? Both are correct but people views it differently!

[thespecialone]

So Toney and B Hop aren't as legendary as Morales, Barrera, and Marquez?

Or are you discounting them because Roy pitched more dominant performances over them?

I think its meant as in a to be a rival to RJJ there would of had to be some sort of controversy or a close fight etc
Cant be held against RJJ that he beat these guys easy!

[Brian123]

Sugar Ray Leonard said last year Pacman was the best fighter in boxing-I think there is no doubt about it.

[jupzrooni]

I really dislike these stupid fucking Pacqauio fans, they don't even care about boxing, just one of their ONLY national celebrities that is appreciated internationally.

They know NOTHING, but invade forums and spew unintelligible garble everywhere.

One even joined the Amir Khan forum, solely to post about Pac, WHY?:nut

really? what a spoiler!:yep
relax man not all pacfans are unintelligible posters (of course you know that). in fact, comparing pac to leonard is waay over the top! it's obvious cos pacdbest source is coming from pacland, wherein there are posters worse than him when it comes to nuthugging

[dave82]

Sugar Ray Leonard said last year Pacman was the best fighter in boxing-I think there is no doubt about it.

Wonder if his feelings have changed after watching Pac-JMM 2?

[thespecialone]

Sugar Ray Leonard said last year Pacman was the best fighter in boxing-I think there is no doubt about it.

Last year Sugar Ray Leonard also said Peter Manfredo Jnr would beat Joe Calzaghe

[dave82]

Last year Sugar Ray Leonard also said Peter Manfredo Jnr would beat Joe Calzaghe

:lol: God lord

[theunderdog]

sugar ray says a lot of things, aparently.

props to all the pinoy pacfans wo are representing well and not getting too patriotic and/or emotional in their assesments

[EARL]

A gift decision gives you nothing, tool.;)

I said that if Pac wins decisively, clear or by destruction, then he's P4P #1 and you get bragging rights. Instead, the decision went to the wrong man, that's not bragging rights, that's incompetent scoring.

That's stupid. Sorry, I'm not even a Pac-hugger in the least but it was most definitely a fair decision.

[EARL]

And to answer this thread.. yes and no. Marquez is by far his best win, IMO, and he's got some marquee wins over some other aged Mexican greats, but he can't compare to Leonard in the least.

[huki]

People should just stop arguing with PacDBest, domingo, and especially johnco. There's no point of trying to argue logically with them and they nuthug Pac in every situation. We should ignore their threads about Pac and maybe they will calm down with the excessive nuthugging and "bragging rights" bullshit in daily threads. It's really like arguing with little kids.. they're only here to praise Pac and they spin everything Pac does/did to make it look positive. They constantly disrespect great fighters and until Pac gets completely owned or knocked out they will continue the ridiculous threads. I say, lets boycott all Pac nuthugger threads from now on and not waste time arguing with them about obvious things. :D

[acb]

People should just stop arguing with PacDBest, domingo, and especially johnco. There's no point of trying to argue logically with them and they nuthug Pac in every situation. We should ignore their threads about Pac and maybe they will calm down with the excessive nuthugging and "bragging rights" bullshit in daily threads. It's really like arguing with little kids.. they're only here to praise Pac and they spin everything Pac does/did to make it look positive. They constantly disrespect great fighters and until Pac gets completely owned or knocked out they will continue the ridiculous threads. I say, lets boycott all Pac nuthugger threads from now on and not waste time arguing with them about obvious things. :D

:happy

[cuchulain]

I fixed it. Or try the Pacland link.

I'm a casual fan of Pac, but the thread starter is a bit off the wall.

More fanatic than fan.

[AK-47]

Yep legendary status definetly!