Can A Case Be Made To Place Duran At #1 P4P All Time? [Archive]

Duodenum

07-12-2007, 08:00 PM

jonesjrp4p1

07-12-2007, 08:04 PM

he cannot be # 1.....even if he was # 2 which he isnt he cannot pass srr

Marnoff

07-12-2007, 08:12 PM

One name: Tommy Hearns.

In SRR's entire 201 match professional career (and 286 combined amateur and pro bouts combined), nobody ever punched Ray into a stoppage defeat. While I think a very strong case can be made for Duran at number two, the fact is that Robby, in his first 216 amateur and professional matches combined, had an overall record of 213-1-2 with 153 knockouts. These are staggering totals. Duran's record simply doesn't measure up to that.

Good point regarding his devastating knockout loss to Hearns. Aside from that, he simply doesn't stack up to Robinson.

That said, I watched him against Buchanan (again) last night on ESPN Classic, and wow, what a machine. It is amazing the ferocity he brought to his fights.

McGrain

07-12-2007, 08:14 PM

to Robinson.

That said, I watched him against Buchanan (again) last night on ESPN Classic, and wow, what a machine. It is amazing the ferocity he brought to his fights.

This is the point (abley demonstrated by that choice of fight!)

A p4p argument would perhaps be more concerned with the extraordinary things he did at lightweight than a loss he had at a higher weight...

DaveTheWave

07-12-2007, 08:38 PM

A good case can be made, and to argue beyond SRR and Armstrong is difficult. It's hard to pick against him at any weight at his best. ANY WEIGHT...

DaveTheWave

07-12-2007, 08:45 PM

I'm amazed at how strongly I can agree with you and how much I can disagree with you, Sweet Pea... Although your list here isn't that bad.

Bummy Davis

07-12-2007, 09:04 PM

Marnoff

07-12-2007, 10:52 PM

Ali, Louis, Dempsye, Marciano, Liston, Lewis, Tyson, Bowe, Holyfield, Patterson, Tunney, Jones Jr., Foster, Spinks, Holmes, Frazier, Foreman, Hearns, Moore, Charles, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. would all beat his ass.

Perfect reply to the "any weight" point.

Russell

07-13-2007, 12:13 AM

No, I wouldn't say so.

brooklyn1550

07-13-2007, 01:01 AM

Not number 1, top 5 though

kNIVEK

07-13-2007, 01:41 AM

probably not #1 but somewhere up there.

True Writer

07-13-2007, 06:36 AM

I think you could make a good case for him. He is generally considered to be the best lightweight of all time and gave SRL generally considered to be a top 3 all time Welter a beating when motivated, past his prime and and 3 weights over his best he went the distance and almost beat Hagler generally considered to be the best middleweight of all time - or at least a top 3 all time middle.

When he was up for it he would stand a chance against any fighter and his acheivements make a good case for him to be considered the greatest of all time. Robinson is considered untouchable - but didn't always impress, if you watch his fights he is dropped and shaken up plenty of timesand beaten.

As for Harry Greb - thats just being silly let at least talk about fighters we can watch rather than myths and legends. Greb may or may not have been great but the truth is there is no way near enough footage of him to make a assessment. Durans fights are there to see and none of us know how one generation would truely far against another but it his best Duran would take some stopping and is a deadcert all time top 3 p4p.

My dinner with Conteh

07-13-2007, 08:22 AM

New Orleans says 'No'.

TBooze

07-13-2007, 08:24 AM

New Orleans says 'No'.

New Orleans is instrumental as to why the answer could be yes, to certain people...

My dinner with Conteh

07-13-2007, 08:37 AM

The guy rated #1 of all-time, perhaps the flagbearer for all of this sport should not be a guy that walks off without trying in one of the biggest fights of the decade.

JohnThomas1

07-13-2007, 08:44 AM

The guy rated #1 of all-time, perhaps the flagbearer for all of this sport should not be a guy that walks off without trying in one of the biggest fights of the decade.

Can't argue here. SRR, Hank, Page etc, no such blemish.

quintonjacksonfan

07-13-2007, 09:02 AM

I don't think you can. He went 1-5 against SRL,Hagler,Hearns, and Benetiz

TBooze

07-13-2007, 11:01 AM

I don't think you can. He went 1-5 against SRL,Hagler,Hearns, and Benetiz

Not bad when you think he was a decade or more past his pomp for the final Leonard fight...

JohnThomas1

07-13-2007, 11:03 AM

Not bad when you think he was a decade or more past his pomp for the final Leonard fight...

Not bad at all, but we're talking number 1 P4P ever.

TBooze

07-13-2007, 11:07 AM

Not bad at all, but we're talking number 1 P4P ever.

I do not have Duran as my all-time #1, but he is in my top 5 and deserves comparison with his peers. Just playing devils advocate;)

George W Hedge

07-13-2007, 11:14 AM

Of course a case can be made for duran as 1, it just depends on what type of fighter you like.

I personally have him in my top 5 atg p4p aswell as no1 all time lwt.

My personal choice for 1 p4p is between ali & srr but duran is right there with these guys, no doubt.

:good

Duodenum

07-13-2007, 01:31 PM

Yes at 135, Duran could beat anyone and that was the natural weight for his frame, if you enlarged him to 6"3 he would proberly weigh 215 and a heavyweight Duran would have wiped out Ali, Frazier, ForemanDuran: "In Panama, people are naturally small. I wish I'd been born in the United States, so I could kick the hell out of Ali and all the other heavyweights!"

McGrain

07-13-2007, 03:47 PM

Durans fights are there to see and none of us know how one generation would truely far against another but it his best Duran would take some stopping and is a deadcert all time top 3 p4p.

See, I don't think so. I don't think there's such a thing as a dead lock. I could argue that Moore, Armstrong and SRR should all be rated above Duran and that wouldn't be unreasonable.

I could also make a case for Charles, Langford, Greb...

Stonehands89

07-13-2007, 04:32 PM

"No Mas" keeps him out of the top spot forever. But considering what he did before and those many times he rose from the ashes of that debacle, he belongs in the top 5.

I happen to disagree that the Hearns stoppage is, in and of itself, enough to argue that Robinson was greater. Robinson never fought a puncher who was even close to Hearns.

Considering that Duran was a LW and Hearns was the greatest JMW and was priming at 152, we'd have to speculate how Robinson would do against say, Roy Jones at SMW or Bob Foster at LHW....

My dinner with Conteh

07-13-2007, 04:47 PM

Funny enough, despite Duran becoming a 4-weight champ in the 1980s and achieving greater things, I think if he had retired after Montreal, you could make a decent case for #1 spot.

Stonehands89

07-13-2007, 04:50 PM

Funny enough, despite Duran becoming a 4-weight champ in the 1980s and achieving greater things, I think if he had retired after Montreal, you could make a decent case for #1 spot.

.... and that is exactly what all of the detractors forget. The wins over Moore and Barkley are sprinkles on the frosting on the cake. The cake is LW domination, the frosting is the defeat of Leonard. Hell, what LW in history could ever survive 15 rounds inside the perimeter against Hagler? I think none.

TBooze

07-13-2007, 05:02 PM

"No Mas" keeps him out of the top spot forever. .

No, that is what gives him a shot at the #1 slot...

GazOC

07-13-2007, 05:04 PM

Not bad when you think he was a decade or more past his pomp for the final Leonard fight...

Even if you ignore the last Leonard fight (too old) and the Hagler fight (too small) he's still 1-3 pretty near his 'pomp'?

TBooze

07-13-2007, 05:05 PM

Funny enough, despite Duran becoming a 4-weight champ in the 1980s and achieving greater things, I think if he had retired after Montreal, you could make a decent case for #1 spot.

No, he would of just been known as execptional fighter, but a stereotype, he developed as a person in people's mines from New Orleans onwards.

It is like Ali; yes if had stayed retired after 67, he would of been what 27-0? But he would not gone down as best heavy in history, because he never had to redeem himself. The 72-1 Duran had only done that against DeJesus...

TBooze

07-13-2007, 05:07 PM

Even if you ignore the last Leonard fight (too old) and the Hagler fight (too small) he's still 1-3 pretty near his 'pomp'?

He was never quite same fighter after LeonardI so I suppose on that logic he was 1-0....;)

McGrain

07-13-2007, 05:10 PM

Even if you ignore the last Leonard fight (too old) and the Hagler fight (too small) he's still 1-3 pretty near his 'pomp'?

Why would you want to scratch the Hagler performance? There's an argument for that being his best.

A lightweight extending one of the great MW's of all time all the way to 15? That's extraordinary.

My dinner with Conteh

07-13-2007, 05:16 PM

No, that is what gives him a shot at the #1 slot...

You're judging too much on 'fame' again. Although what you say has probably helped towards a Top 5 slot, but 'no mas' prevented him ever being first. The 'best fighter ever' doesn't do that. He can't be No: 1...and he isn't.

TBooze

07-13-2007, 05:35 PM

You're judging too much on 'fame' again. Although what you say has probably helped towards a Top 5 slot, but 'no mas' prevented him ever being first. The 'best fighter ever' doesn't do that. He can't be No: 1...and he isn't.

The most popular are very often the ones who can redeem themselves. Robinson was exceptional as a 147lber, but he never would be #1 without regainiong the 160lbs 5 times (and losing it in the ring four times). Ali would not be the same, without redeeming his demons of the late 60s and the first Frazier fight.

Iconic status is always going to be a factor, it is what probably gives most a bias, in what is a premiss that borders on the totally ridiculous:

i.e. I believe a man who weighed 94lbs in 1915 (Jimmy Wilde) is pound for pound better than a 250lb man from the 21st Century (Lewis)...

But hey it is fun, so we carry on doing it;)

Stonehands89

07-13-2007, 05:36 PM

No, that is what gives him a shot at the #1 slot...

That logic doesn't work unless you apply over-the-top weight to redemptions.

I think redemptions are better in/during battle -when a fighter is being outmanned or is outgunned and turns the tide. But reclaiming titles after losing them or reclaiming your reputation after soiling it -only evens the score... it doesn't really enhance it. Robinson losing to Carmen and Gene doesn't enhance his status, strictly speaking.

My dinner with Conteh

07-13-2007, 05:38 PM

The most popular are very often the ones who can redeem themselves. Robinson was exceptional as a 147lber, but he never would be #1 without regainiong the 160lbs 5 times (and losing it in the ring four times). Ali would not be the same, without redeeming his demons of the late 60s and the first Frazier fight.

Iconic status is always going to be a factor, it is what probably gives most a bias, in what is a premiss that borders on the totally ridiculous:

i.e. I believe a man who weighed 94lbs in 1907 (Jimmy Wilde) is pound for pound better than a 250lb man from the 21st Century (Lewis)...

But hey it is fun, so we carry on doing it;)

Fair point. Although I think Robinson would have been regarded as #1 if he'd retired after regaining middleweight crown after Olson anyway.

GazOC

07-13-2007, 05:39 PM

Why would you want to scratch the Hagler performance? There's an argument for that being his best.

A lightweight extending one of the great MW's of all time all the way to 15? That's extraordinary.

Of course taking Hagler the full 15 was a great performance from Duran. I was just trying to best 'legitimate' score for Duran against the other boxers mentioned (see the post I quoted).

McGrain

07-13-2007, 05:40 PM

Fair point. Although I think Robinson would have been regarded as #1 if he'd retired after regaining middleweight crown after Olson anyway.

I agree.

Although he'd be grossly underated in Classic because so many casual fans would insist he was practically unbeatable.

McGrain

07-13-2007, 05:40 PM

Of course taking Hagler the full 15 was a great performance from Duran. I was just trying to best 'legitimate' score for Duran against the other boxers mentioned (see the post I quoted).

Sure.

TBooze

07-13-2007, 05:42 PM

That logic doesn't work unless you apply over-the-top weight to redemptions.

In this case what has weight got to do with redemption?

To comeback from his demons in New Orleans, to do things Duran did in 83 and 89 is amazing.

Whether they are a factor in making Duran the finest fighter ever, is of course open to a lot of debate, but it certainly does not harm his cause And the fact he was over his prime weight when he did these deeds, adds to them IMO.

Nemesis

07-13-2007, 05:44 PM

Can't argue here. SRR, Hank, Page etc, no such blemish.

:lol:

Page KO1 Ali

TBooze

07-13-2007, 05:47 PM

:lol:

Page KO1 Ali

Hey JohnThomas will tell you that is what happened when they began sparring together in 80/81:yep

JohnThomas1

07-13-2007, 07:28 PM

Funny enough, despite Duran becoming a 4-weight champ in the 1980s and achieving greater things, I think if he had retired after Montreal, you could make a decent case for #1 spot.

Oh yes indeed. Trouble is none of them retire on top. Heck, Duran couldn't retire for a decade or more.

achillesthegreat

07-13-2007, 07:50 PM

One name: Tommy Hearns.

In SRR's entire 201 match professional career (and 286 combined amateur and pro bouts combined), nobody ever punched Ray into a stoppage defeat. While I think a very strong case can be made for Duran at number two, the fact is that Robby, in his first 216 amateur and professional matches combined, had an overall record of 213-1-2 with 153 knockouts. These are staggering totals. Duran's record simply doesn't measure up to that.
Duran started off something like Bantam, Robinson lightweight. It's the equivilent of Robinson fighting Bob Foster at 175 and who knows what would have happened. We have to consider Robinson not being up for the fight as Duran often wasn't post Leonard I.

JohnThomas1

07-13-2007, 07:54 PM

Hey JohnThomas will tell you that is what happened when they began sparring together in 80/81:yep

Page was doing ok, landed a big right hand and Ali got serious. Onlookers had to remind Ali he was just a kid.

JohnThomas1

07-13-2007, 07:55 PM

:lol:

Page KO1 Ali
You've come a long way!

mcvey

07-14-2007, 04:56 AM

What do you think?

If not why not, if so...preach!
No! Not while there is Robinson,Armstrong,and Greb to consider,imo.

Stonehands89

07-14-2007, 08:03 AM

In this case what has weight got to do with redemption?

To comeback from his demons in New Orleans, to do things Duran did in 83 and 89 is amazing.

Whether they are a factor in making Duran the finest fighter ever, is of course open to a lot of debate, but it certainly does not harm his cause And the fact he was over his prime weight when he did these deeds, adds to them IMO.

By weight, I don't mean pounds, I mean emphasis. Redemptions require loss. Loss hurts status. If Duran went out like a man against Leonard II, then rose up in weight and faced down all of his challenges (particularly Moore, Hagler, and Hearns), he'd topple Robinson. He would be king of the world.

It is indeed a mark of character to come back from bad losses, but I don't think it enhances standing in ATG ratings. Nothing does that like winning.

McGrain

07-14-2007, 08:09 AM

It is indeed a mark of character to come back from bad losses, but I don't think it enhances standing in ATG ratings. Nothing does that like winning.

Although there are exceptions, no?

I'd say Frazier's loss to Ali in Manilla enhances his ATG status (who would have guessed even Joe had such reserves of stamina, will and heart?)

I wonder how things would have panned out if Duran had won an immediate rubber.

Stonehands89

07-14-2007, 08:20 AM

Although there are exceptions, no?

I'd say Frazier's loss to Ali in Manilla enhances his ATG status (who would have guessed even Joe had such reserves of stamina, will and heart?)

I wonder how things would have panned out if Duran had won an immediate rubber.

It also meant that Ali avenged the Frazier loss twice. If Ali couldn't come out for the last round in Manila and Frazier won, would Frazier climb your ATG HW ratings? He would mine.

JohnThomas1

07-14-2007, 08:21 AM

It also meant that Ali avenged the Frazier loss twice. If Ali couldn't come out for the last round in Manila and Frazier won, would Frazier climb your ATG HW ratings? He would mine.

Totally agree. If Frazier beat Ali 3 times then Foreman then retires............

Stonehands89

07-14-2007, 08:24 AM

I wonder how things would have panned out if Duran had won an immediate rubber.

An immediate rubber? Duran was such a psychological mess after No Mas that he might have come in out of shape again. Who knows.

Let's say that he did get in great shape and was inspired at the end of 81. Duran would not have beaten Leonard again. The window where he ever would have been able to beat Leonard was 79-80. He slowed down a smidgen after that, and that would spell the difference.

However, best for best, I take Duran.

TBooze

07-14-2007, 09:18 AM

It is indeed a mark of character to come back from bad losses, but I don't think it enhances standing in ATG ratings. Nothing does that like winning.

I disagree human nature does not always reward winning. Outside of boxing very often people have to lose, so redemption can make them greater; Gandhi became a greater man by losing his fight to keep the people of India together; Mandela was never greater than when he was prison; Churchill was driven to greatness by the demons of Gallipoli...

Duran became a better fighter for redeeming himself post New Orleans IMO.

Stonehands89

07-14-2007, 09:25 AM

I disagree human nature does not always reward winning. Outside of boxing very often people have to lose, so redemption can make them greater; Gandhi became a greater man by losing his fight to keep the people of India together; Mandela was never greater than when he was prison; Churchill was driven to greatness by the demons of Gallipoli...

Duran became a better fighter for redeeming himself post New Orleans IMO.

I like the analogies and am guilty of indulging in the same myself. I think we would both do well to remember that boxing is, ultimately, a sport.

Here we go... Jesus's loss was mankind's gain and I'm a believer. But if Golgotha were a ring, then Jesus took a dive and boxrec would read like this:

Caesar KO 3 Jesus "the Nazarene"

TBooze

07-14-2007, 09:29 AM

I like the analogies and am guilty of indulging in the same myself. I think we would both do well to remember that boxing is, ultimately, a sport.

Here we go... Jesus's loss was mankind's gain and I'm a believer. But if Golgotha were a ring, then Jesus took a dive and boxrec would read like this:

Caesar KO 3 Jesus "the Nazarene"

;)

McGrain

07-14-2007, 12:37 PM

If Ali couldn't come out for the last round in Manila and Frazier won, would Frazier climb your ATG HW ratings? He would mine.

Of couse, of course. I just meant a man can imporove his standing in defeat, like Conn or Bradock v Louis or Buchanan v Duran for example.

Robbi

07-14-2007, 01:14 PM

j0oKpw_jA4o

Who can mind of this, I certainly can't.

Maybe because I was only 3 years old.

Sonny's jab

07-15-2007, 07:31 AM

Yes, I think a case can be made for Duran at number 1.

Personally I'd probably put Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Pep, Charles, Moore, B.Leonard, Langford, Saddler, and perhaps Monzon ahead of him.

McGrain

07-15-2007, 07:48 AM

Personally I'd probably put Robinson, Greb, Armstrong, Pep, Charles, Moore, B.Leonard, Langford, Saddler, and perhaps Monzon ahead of him.

Monzon sticks out like a sore thumb there - a fine fighter but what's the case for having him ahead of Duran p4p?

Sonny's jab

07-15-2007, 08:09 AM

Monzon sticks out like a sore thumb there - a fine fighter but what's the case for having him ahead of Duran p4p?

He dominated his division for about 7 or 8 years, beat a very good crop of challengers, most of them with utter ease. His opposition at MW may well have been better than Duran's at LW. Monzon would edge Duran as fighter of the decade for the 1970s in many people's minds.
I prefer Duran's style but Monzon is arguably greater.

My dinner with Conteh

07-15-2007, 08:30 AM

Monzon sticks out like a sore thumb there - a fine fighter but what's the case for having him ahead of Duran p4p?

Does he? Why, because he's not American? He certainly rates ahead of Saddler pound-for-pound for a start. :huh

My dinner with Conteh

07-15-2007, 08:31 AM

j0oKpw_jA4o

Who can mind of this, I certainly can't.

Maybe because I was only 3 years old.

Maybe because you're not American.

My dinner with Conteh

07-15-2007, 08:33 AM

I know Sam is Canadian by the way. :good

TBooze

07-15-2007, 08:53 AM

Actually Caesar was dead for some time during the life of Jesus. Augustus was imperator.

Well no one knows for sure if and when Jesus was alive, let alone boxed!;)

TBooze

07-15-2007, 09:03 AM

Oh that´s not really true, they already know when somebody whose story coincidences very much with Jesus´ was living. But yeah i doubt he was boxing but you´ll never know. ;)

Yeah, his name was Brian, but he was not the Messiah!;)

China_hand_Joe

07-15-2007, 09:24 AM

Monzon sticks out like a sore thumb there - a fine fighter but what's the case for having him ahead of Duran p4p?I was thinking Pep stood out the most there.

Shake

07-15-2007, 10:08 AM

Top 10 of all-time P4P is a big thing to be. I'm a diehard Duran-fan, and I feel that's where he belongs.

#1? No. No matter how much we enjoy his fights, his abilities and his fighting spirit, he was simply not that talented. And that's okay.

enquirer

07-15-2007, 10:38 AM

Im a big believer in that to be no 1 you have to have wins/great performances against atgs....Duran from lightweight to welter did have some great performances and p4p ranks possibly with best ever in this phase of his career....Those performances after these are just confirmation of his greatness at silly weights and after his peak....Its a shame he didnt have greater comp at lightweight,but beating ray,de jesus and palamino shows he could beat hall of famers...There are soo many great fighters through boxing history,i dont think there is any clear number one,so yes a case could be made that roberto is no 1 p4p,but a case could alos be made for several other fighters as well....
I dont fall for the 'robinson is automatic and definate no 1 p4p'...

Stonehands89

07-15-2007, 11:12 AM

Actually Caesar was dead for some time during the life of Jesus. Augustus was imperator.

"Caesar" became the usual way to refer to the Roman Emperor beginning with Augustus, who was his adopted son. "Augustus was called "Caesar" Augustus. It remained a title indicating power for most of the Roman Era.

Augustus died before Jesus. Tiberius ("Tiberius Caesar Augustus") was emperor during the crucifixion.