Hearns - Power...

[Russell]

Where do you think Mr. Hearns ranks P4P wise, power?

Is he in your top five all time?

Top three?

Anyone have any stories of his power?

Have any other boxers carried their power 40 some odd pounds up in weight like Hearns did?

Langford?

[brooklyn1550]

Top 5

[Senya13]

Outside of top 10.

[fists of fury]

Without thorough research it's an impossible question to answer. But his power was flat out scary and that right hand - if he hit you clean - meant an early night for anyone not called Marvin Hagler.

I could not believe how easily he crushed the mega tough Roberto Duran.

[Senya13]

Hearns' power above 154lb is grossly overrated.

[laxpdx]

Hearns' power above 154lb is grossly overrated.

Tell that to Duran.

[fists of fury]

Or James Schuler.

[achillesthegreat]

Top 5 with guys like Jackson and Hamed.

[Senya13]

Thomas Hearns 153 1/4 W-TKO2 Roberto Duran 154

WTF is Shames Schuler to be a measurement stick?

[jyuza]

At middleweight he had atomic bombs in his hands too. He KO'd in one round a contender who made the distance with Hagler before the "war" with the champ.

[fists of fury]

You claimed his power over 154 is "grossly overrated." (Your words.)

The Schuler fight clearly demonstrates that is isn't.

[Senya13]

He knocked out an old lightweight fighting 3 divisions above his best weight.
That Hagler couldn't KO Duran is Hagler's problem, he's a "wear 'em down" kind of puncher, not a KO artist by any means. For one reason or another he just paid too much respect to Duran.

Shuler is a nobody. I can find tens of examples when seemingly non-punchers scored a great KO all a sudden. Statistics shows clearly that Hearns wasn't a KO artist above 154lb, his power from middleweight and up is very overrated, he doesn't have nothing significant to back up a claim of a KO artist there.

[TBooze]

Hearns is technically the most powerful fighter ever pound for pound.

He could not knock out hardly anyone as an amatuer (163 fights; 155 wins; 12 KO's), but as a pro almost straight away Steward found a way to create that magnificent Hearns right hand.

[fists of fury]

He knocked out an old lightweight fighting 3 divisions above his best weight.
That Hagler couldn't KO Duran is Hagler's problem, he's a "wear 'em down" kind of puncher, not a KO artist by any means. For one reason or another he just paid too much respect to Duran.

Shuler is a nobody. I can find tens of examples when seemingly non-punchers scored a great KO all a sudden. Statistics shows clearly that Hearns wasn't a KO artist above 154lb, his power from middleweight and up is very overrated, he doesn't have nothing significant to back up a claim of a KO artist there.

Schuler is a nobody because Hearns made him a nobody. He never fought again after that brutal KO, despite being 22-0 at the time.

I don't think anyone is claiming Hearns to be a KO artist at say, 175, but Hearns always had power, no matter what weight he fought at. He beat down the tough Dennis Andries and knocked him down several times and although Virgil Hill went the distance, Tommy stung him several times with good shots and Hill's face was heavily marked after the bout.

What makes you say it's so overrated? Give us examples of where he struggled, power-wise.

[JohnThomas1]

Thomas Hearns 153 1/4 W-TKO2 Roberto Duran 154

WTF is Shames Schuler to be a measurement stick?

Let me guess, your boy Roy belongs above Hearns

:lol:

[Senya13]

Schuler is a nobody because Hearns made him a nobody. He never fought again after that brutal KO, despite being 22-0 at the time.
Of course, he didn't fight, he died in a motorcycle accident 1 week after the fight.

[fists of fury]

Really? I didn't know that...that's tragic.

But why do you say Hearn's power is so overrated?

[Manassa]

Depends how you define power. To me, there are two ends of the spectrum and slots in between. You have Bob Foster and Thomas Hearns at one end with their whipping, concussing punches. They aren't strong punches, but carry high velocity due to leverage, speed and a natural technique. At the other end, you have George Foreman and Bennie Briscoe; the punches thrown by these men are not as fast and snapping, but the strength contained will penetrate your guard and physically move you. There are varying levels in between these two, where Joe Louis, Marvin Hagler and Ike Williams belong. Let's say, for the sake of whatever, that Hearns and Foster were '10' and Briscoe and Foreman were '0'. One end represents snap and velocity, the other represents strength and raw power; a '5' is an equal balance of the two. Here's how it would look to me:

10 - Foster, Hearns, Robinson

8 - Williams, R. Lopez, Tyson

6 - Louis, Moore, Arguello

4 - Duran, Hagler, Marciano

2 - Chavez, Galaxy, Olivares

0 - Foreman, Briscoe, Saddler

All these punchers are roughly on the same level, though I tend to think the better ones reside from 6-10.

[JohnThomas1]

Great post, but i'd have Louis on the level up from Alexis, i reckon he had a fair bit more snap and speed. Arguello didn't have fast hands, but i class Louis not far from Ali for handspeed and snap personally. I think his speed is the most underrated part about him.

[Manassa]

Great post, but i'd have Louis on the level up from Alexis, i reckon he had a fair bit more snap and speed. Arguello didn't have fast hands, but i class Louis not far from Ali for handspeed and snap personally. I think his speed is the most underrated part about him.

Perhaps. I don't really know where Arguello got his one-shot power from - he wasn't that fast or anything. His punches were straight and full of leverage but so were many others' shots and they didn't have the same effect as Arguello's. It's a mystery. Maybe he had just the right balance. Or timing? He might have learned to hit at precisely the right moment.

[Titan1]

Schuler is a nobody because Hearns made him a nobody. He never fought again after that brutal KO, despite being 22-0 at the time.

I don't think anyone is claiming Hearns to be a KO artist at say, 175, but Hearns always had power, no matter what weight he fought at. He beat down the tough Dennis Andries and knocked him down several times and although Virgil Hill went the distance, Tommy stung him several times with good shots and Hill's face was heavily marked after the bout.

What makes you say it's so overrated? Give us examples of where he struggled, power-wise.

Shuler didn't have a chance to, he was killed in a motorcycle accident.

[TBooze]

Schuler is a nobody because Hearns made him a nobody. He never fought again after that brutal KO, despite being 22-0 at the time.

Schuler was a legitmate top 10 160lber coming into the Hearns fight. He beat tough veteran Sugar Ray Seales, Clint Jackson, Kenny Bristol and most impressively he took the '0' of streaking James Kinchen.

[JohnThomas1]

Perhaps. I don't really know where Arguello got his one-shot power from - he wasn't that fast or anything. His punches were straight and full of leverage but so were many others' shots and they didn't have the same effect as Arguello's. It's a mystery. Maybe he had just the right balance. Or timing? He might have learned to hit at precisely the right moment.

Good point. Arguello neither had the snap of a Hearn's nor the heaviness and thud of a Foreman. Yet as a P4P puncher he ranks at the absolute pinnacle. I definitely see a beautiful delivery and close to textbook perfection on near every punch. Great leverage. It might be more than just timing tho, he sliced Escalera's lip pretty much off as well as other scary deeds. A difficult study this one.

[janitor]

I think that few if any fighters of his weight have matched his power. I could suggest Mickey Walker, Barbados Joe Walcott and the younger Sam Langford.

[Robbi]

You claimed his power over 154 is "grossly overrated." (Your words.)

The Schuler fight clearly demonstrates that is isn't.

Forget the Schuler fight. Hearns floored Andries five times at light-heavyweight.

[JohnThomas1]

Hearns retained great power all the way from 147 to 175 and even 190 really. IMO he is absolutely automatic inclusion in the top 5 or 3. I have no problem at all with numero uno. The way he proved his power over so many divisions gives him the advantage over Foster and co IMO.
if we stipulate P4P power in a single division it gets closer. Alexis Arguello is another who showed enormous power over a big division span.

[dalek]

the only fight i can think of from memory at middle where hearns power can be questioned is against doug dewitt whom hearns landed flush over and over again and doug slapped his own chin and asked for more.(it may not have quite happened like that but thats how i remember it)

[JohnThomas1]

the only fight i can think of from memory at middle where hearns power can be questioned is against doug dewitt whom hearns landed flush over and over again and doug slapped his own chin and asked for more.(it may not have quite happened like that but thats how i remember it)

Thast's always going to happen tho. Mannassa tonight pointed out Foster - Finnegan, similar. It can happen. The fascinating thing is DeWitt had never been stopped going into the Hearns fight yet was stopped by a mug next fight in just 3 rounds.

Delayed reaction?

:smoke

[Robbi]

Hearns retained great power all the way from 147 to 175 and even 190 really. IMO he is absolutely automatic inclusion in the top 5 or 3. I have no problem at all with numero uno. The way he proved his power over so many divisions gives him the advantage over Foster and co IMO.
if we stipulate P4P power in a single division it gets closer. Alexis Arguello is another who showed enormous power over a big division span.

Agreed to a certain extent. He did retain his power all the way from 147lbs to 190lbs, but he was not as consistent with it. His power clearly decreased while moving up, but thats understandable. Hearns was a great puncher, then again he wasn't superman.

[JohnThomas1]

Agreed to a certain extent. He did retain his power all the way from 147lbs to 190lbs, but he was not as consistent with it. His power clearly decreased while moving up, but thats understandable. Hearns was a great puncher, then again he wasn't superman.

Can you name me another fighter who exuded such power over 30-40 pounds?

[mr. magoo]

Can you name me another fighter who exuded such power over 30-40 pounds?

Not to the extent that Hearns did, however Roberto Duran in all fairness was a powerful lightweight, who remained fairly strong, even in his latter years at middleweight. You have to figure that he began his career around 129 , and finshed at about 163. Through maybe a 35 pound range, plus a 30 year career, he retained much of his power.

[Robbi]

Can you name me another fighter who exuded such power over 30-40 pounds?

Nope. Not off the top of my head.

[JohnThomas1]

Not completely, however Roberto Duran was a powerful lightweight, who remained fairly strong, even in his latter years at middleweight. You have to figure that he was around 135 at lightweight, and finshed his career somwhere between 160-165.

Not even close to Hearns. Retained quite reasonable power all the way to 160 tho. Division wise Arguello is notable.

[Robbi]

Not even close to Hearns. Retained quite reasonable power all the way to 160 tho. Division wise Arguello is notable.

I know the type of power your meaning. I think. Fighters who not only have devastating KO's in the divisions below, but also many divisions north.

I previously said Hearns retained his power, but it clearly decreased as he moved up in weight. Some people maybe think that doesn't make sense. What I meant was he was not having as many devastating knockouts at 160lbs and 175lbs, but he was still having them, although not as regular as 147lbs.

[Doppleganger]

Can you name me another fighter who exuded such power over 30-40 pounds?
There isn't one. Hearns is in a class of his own here. If Hearns doesn't make anyone's top 5 (Senya 'Manlove 4 RJJ' aside) then I need to hear very good reasons why. Tommy was a freak of nature and they don't come along too often.

[JohnThomas1]

There isn't one. Hearns is in a class of his own here. If Hearns doesn't make anyone's top 5 (Senya 'Manlove 4 RJJ' aside) then I need to hear very good reasons why. Tommy was a freak of nature and they don't come along too often.

Yeah, lets not worry bout Senya on any Hearns or Jones topic.

:good

[JohnThomas1]

I know the type of power your meaning. I think. Fighters who not only have devastating KO's in the divisions below, but also many divisions north.

I previously said Hearns retained his power, but it clearly decreased as he moved up in weight. Some people maybe think that doesn't make sense. What I meant was he was not having as many devastating knockouts at 160lbs and 175lbs, but he was still having them, although not as regular as 147lbs.

We understood you clear as crystal Robbi

:good

[Robbi]

There isn't one. Hearns is in a class of his own here. If Hearns doesn't make anyone's top 5 (Senya 'Manlove 4 RJJ' aside) then I need to hear very good reasons why. Tommy was a freak of nature and they don't come along too often.


Hearns had a right hand with so much leverage and natural power he could knock down small buildings.

[Senya13]

Of course, you shouldn't worry me. Because facts are such as I said, Hearns' had stopped being a KO artist at any weight above 154lb. He punched hard, but he needed a lot more punches to hurt people where before he needed just one or two. People are claiming him retaining his power up to 190lb. Of course, if you are meeting with tomato cans or mediocrities at best, you are able to retain your power.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Maybe not the knockouts but he was knocking down and hurting fighters

above 154 pounds. Sutherland,Roldan,Andries,Barkley,SRL were a few of the

fighters he had in bad trouble above 154 pounds

[George W Hedge]

Hearns must be up there, he ko`d duran, shattered srl`s retina & floored him twice in the space of 25 & a half rds & cut & staggered a prime, possesed hagler.

Ray Leonard says hearns was his most troublesome opponent ahead of even hagler & duran.

:good

[Doppleganger]

Hearns had a right hand with so much leverage and natural power he could knock down small buildings.
His long-range left hook to the body was a great punch too.

[enquirer]

Hearns one punch ko of roldan and his punching against dennis andries alone show and prove his awesome single shot power at above 154...(not forgetting being the only one of haglers opposition at 160 to cause him visible trouble with power shots.)
In his prime i think p4p he was one of the greatest one shot punchers of all times,i cant think of anyone who has BETTER power with one punch p4p....Just watch his punches v duran and cuevas (two extremely durable hall of fame fighters.) ,Pure laser guided bombs with massive leverage and whipping velocity....It would be interesting to see how many other champs have near one punch kos over durable hall of fame opponents.....?

[Senya13]

KO's at 154lb over natural 135lb HOF opponent? That KO win is clearly the main reason why people overrate Hearns' power like he's in Julian Jackson's or Gerald McClellan's league.

[JohnThomas1]

KO's at 154lb over natural 135lb HOF opponent? That KO win is clearly the main reason why people overrate Hearns' power like he's in Julian Jackson's or Gerald McClellan's league.

Tell me again what HOF opponents Gerald and Julian knocked stiff again? You deride Hearns KO victories over the likes of Duran, Roldan and the like yet boom up the opposition of these guys?

Whether Duran was best at 135 doesn't matter one iota sunshine, the question is how good was his chin at 154. The answer? Fukking G-R-E-A-T. Duran was never left like that either before or since. The fight before he had gone a comfortable 15 vs a fantastic version of Hagler. Years later look at he and Barkley. The man had a great chin at any weight. To debate other is just plain lack of knowledge and respect. Did you lose money on a Hearn's fight or something? You've sure got some disdain and disrespect there.

[Senya13]

Duran's best weight means a lot. The point is he didn't face many big punchers above his natural weight. Both McClellan and Jackson would rid of him in the very first round at 154 or 160. Hagler was never a big puncher, and Duran lost by very wide margin to Hagler, the scorecards were completely off, and most people agree that Hagler wasn't fantastic, he paid Duran too much respect than he should have. More fights at 154lb - losses to Benitez and Laing. 154 was quite probably the worst weight for Duran, based on results of his fights there, i.e. based on facts. Barkley was primitive slugger without that much power, it was only Hearns' glass jaw at those weights that made Barkley look like big puncher.

[JohnThomas1]

Duran's best weight means a lot. The point is he didn't face many big punchers above his natural weight. Both McClellan and Jackson would rid of him in the very first round at 154 or 160.

Yeah, sure they would. RJJ too of course. I wouldn't back Jackson to beat him let alone stone cold the man. Hagler and Barkley are big enough punchers to prove his chin beyond doubt at the higher weights. Hell, Davey Moore could bang ok. LOL@ your faith and sureness in these two stopping a defensive fighter like Duran in 1 round. I've seen some brash statements in my time, and this one is right up with some of the best.

More fights at 154lb - losses to Benitez and Laing. 154 was quite probably the worst weight for Duran, based on results of his fights there, i.e. based on facts.

Yeah mate, whatever suits your argument lol. You just go discount his wins over Moore and Barkley as well as his nice showing vs Hagler. Both Laing and Benitez were good boxers and most everyone realises the trouble Duran had at higher weights was with slicksters, not bangers. Hearns was a fantastic blend of both, as proven vs Duran. Jackson and Gerald aren't slicksters. Still lmao at your sureness, both KO 1. :lol:

Barkley was primitive slugger without that much power, it was only Hearns' glass jaw at those weights that made Barkley look like big puncher.

Barkley was a fine puncher. Simple as that.

[Senya13]

You just go discount his wins over Moore and Barkley as well as his nice showing vs Hagler.
Are you able to pay attention to what I say?
154lb. Now tell me what weight he fought Hagler and Barkley at?
At 154 Duran showed his worst results than at any other weight. But still "he was at his best there", yeah right... I mean, wrong. The facts contradict him being at his best at that weight, clear as daylight.

Barkley was a fine puncher. Simple as that.
Fine puncher? That akward slugger with mediocre defense, offense and footwork, and lack of knowledge about ring generalship, was a fine puncher?

[JohnThomas1]

Are you able to pay attention to what I say?
154lb. Now tell me what weight he fought Hagler and Barkley at?
At 154 Duran showed his worst results than at any other weight. But still "he was at his best there", yeah right... I mean, wrong. The facts contradict him being at his best at that weight, clear as daylight.


Listen up and listen good for once, if Duran can take punches at 135, 147 and 160 he can sure as hell take them at 154, comprehendo? Or is this too difficult a concept for your agenda here? Do you think 154 has this special hocus pocus come into focus that takes away Duran's chin and ability? Blind Freddie can see Duran had bad losses at 160 as well. Just sit back and accept Duran has a great chin at all weights like the rest of planet earth.

[Stonehands89]

Perhaps. I don't really know where Arguello got his one-shot power from - he wasn't that fast or anything. His punches were straight and full of leverage but so were many others' shots and they didn't have the same effect as Arguello's. It's a mystery. Maybe he had just the right balance. Or timing? He might have learned to hit at precisely the right moment.

Yes. Arguello was a precision puncher. He was like a computer, he timed the shot to land precisely where the chin was going to be, and then placed himself at the optimum distance to deliver maximum force. This more than compensated for lack of speed. Every shot was leveraged and whipped and set up with dum-dum shots designed to get the chin where he wanted it (left hooks, lazy feints). He also had heavy hands.

I rank him as the single best "precision-puncher" ever.

[80s champs]

Hey all!,Have'nt been on here in a while,and this post is awesome,let me just say that Hearns is the reason I like this sport so much. And am a big big fan of the Hit man for so many years later. I first started following him during and after the first Leonard fight. Even before he came back into championship status,I knew this guy had just way too much talant and power to stay down. I remeber the Benitez fight where he won the championship again,and the blowout of Duran was Clearly Hearns greatest moment. I was actually at the Hutchings fight in Saginaw MI where Hearns knocked him out in the third. And the defeat to Hagler? The way it happened,with the way they slugged it out caught many of us off guard. Hearns legs and broken hand eventually forced him to slug it out,not taking anything away from Marvelous victory.And years later the draw with Leonard 2? BS BS like the crowd said. Long live the Hit Man,a fighter :happy with minor flaws,but awesome strengths!!!

[JohnThomas1]

Hey all!,Have'nt been on here in a while,and this post is awesome,let me just say that Hearns is the reason I like this sport so much. And am a big big fan of the Hit man for so many years later. I first started following him during and after the first Leonard fight. Even before he came back into championship status,I knew this guy had just way too much talant and power to stay down. I remeber the Benitez fight where he won the championship again,and the blowout of Duran was Clearly Hearns greatest moment. I was actually at the Hutchings fight in Saginaw MI where Hearns knocked him out in the third. And the defeat to Hagler? The way it happened,with the way they slugged it out caught many of us off guard. Hearns legs and broken hand eventually forced him to slug it out,not taking anything away from Marvelous victory.And years later the draw with Leonard 2? BS BS like the crowd said. Long live the Hit Man,a fighter :happy with minor flaws,but awesome strengths!!!

You should post more often

:D

[80s champs]

Oh by the way,does anyone know of the feedback some of his opponents said of him after they've faced him??? Leonard,Hagler,Duran? How they've rated his power? I heard Hearns and Hagler are friends now.:smoke

[Senya13]

Listen up. Duran was a natural lightweight.Above 135lb the biggest puncher he faced was Hearns, and that was 19 pounds above Duran's best weight. Not at any time after that Duran faced any really big puncher to prove he could take their punches. The fact that Hearns' dented his chin so easily shows Duran climbed up too high.
Other Hearns' fights at 154lb:
Mike Colbert W-PTS10
Fighting Jim Richards W- KO3
Santiago Valdez W-TKO1
Eddie Gazo W-KO1
Marcos Geraldo W-KO1
Wilfred Benitez W-MD15
Luigi Minchillo W-UD12
Fred Hutchings W-TKO3
Mark Medal W-TKO8

Unless you want to say that Duran had a chin that was worse than Colbert's, Richards', Benitez', Minchillo's, Hutchings' and Medal's, that he lasted less time against Hearns than all these fighters did.

[JohnThomas1]

Listen up. Duran was a natural lightweight.Above 135lb the biggest puncher he faced was Hearns, and that was 19 pounds above Duran's best weight. Not at any time after that Duran faced any really big puncher to prove he could take their punches.

Lets talk before, like one fight before. Do you not rate Hagler as a puncher? (wouldn't damn well surprise LOL) Hagler whilst not quite a one shot man was possibly the most debilitating accumulation puncher in boxing. Simply look at his stoppage record a bit before and after Duran. You'll have excuses tho. Since you don't rate (convenient) Barkley as a puncher we don't need to talk about the missile that sent him spinning, right? Wasn't it you implying Hagler feared Leonard's punches more than Hearn's?!?!! Duran survived Ray quite ok. How bout Pipino, may have aged but don't even begin to tell me he still didn't have the punch. Moore punched well too. Of course you'll write them off to suit the agenda.

Unless you want to say that Duran had a chin that was worse than Colbert's, Richards', Benitez', Minchillo's, Hutchings' and Medal's, that he lasted less time against Hearns than all these fighters did.

Tell me Senya, did Duran have a less worhty chin than those guys?

Still lmgfao @ Jackson and Gerald taking out Duran in 1 round

:lol:

[Pat_Lowe]

Listen up. Duran was a natural lightweight.Above 135lb the biggest puncher he faced was Hearns, and that was 19 pounds above Duran's best weight. Not at any time after that Duran faced any really big puncher to prove he could take their punches. The fact that Hearns' dented his chin so easily shows Duran climbed up too high.
Other Hearns' fights at 154lb:
Mike Colbert W-PTS10
Fighting Jim Richards W- KO3
Santiago Valdez W-TKO1
Eddie Gazo W-KO1
Marcos Geraldo W-KO1
Wilfred Benitez W-MD15
Luigi Minchillo W-UD12
Fred Hutchings W-TKO3
Mark Medal W-TKO8

Unless you want to say that Duran had a chin that was worse than Colbert's, Richards', Benitez', Minchillo's, Hutchings' and Medal's, that he lasted less time against Hearns than all these fighters did.

Hearns was fully motivated for the Duran fight and he made the bold prediction that he would KO Duran in the 2nd. He was going to prove everyone wrong, that was possibly the best Hearns ever seen. Perhaps the other fighters fought a Hearns who was somewhat less motivated or maybe impaired (eg Benitez)

[Senya13]

Hagler was accumulation puncher and Duran was one tough SoB when it came to handling prolonged punishment. He took it well, but chin and toughness are two different things. Cuevas was clearly on the way down, Hearns ruined him as a fighter.

[JohnThomas1]

Hagler was accumulation puncher and Duran was one tough SoB when it came to handling prolonged punishment. He took it well, but chin and toughness are two different things. Cuevas was clearly on the way down, Hearns ruined him as a fighter.

So let me get this straight, Duran could handle debilitating accumulation but bigger punches at the higher weight were different LOL. Duran survived some serious punches off Barkley,who had stopped Olijade, who had never been stopped. Barkley has some pop, whether you want to admit it or not.

Back to my question, which of those guys had better chins at 154 than Duran, Senya?

[Senya13]

Some fighters can survive terrible punishment from accumulative punches, but there's a difference between getting hit with heavy, but lacking sharpness, timing and precision punches, such as Foreman's, for example, and single sharp perfectly timed punches, such as Julian Jackson's or Shavers', for example. Duran could stand the former, no doubt, but he wasn't invulnerable to the latter (going back as far as the DeJesus fights). The reason why he wasn't stopped at those higher weights, except the Hearns fight, was because he didn't face fighters who were good at 2nd type of punches.
Those fighters who lasted longer against 154lb Hearns were naturally bigger than Duran. There's a reason why fighters are separated by divisions.

[JohnThomas1]

Some fighters can survive terrible punishment from accumulative punches, but there's a difference between getting hit with heavy, but lacking sharpness, timing and precision punches, such as Foreman's, for example, and single sharp perfectly timed punches, such as Julian Jackson's or Shavers', for example.

I'd hardly seperate Foreman and Shavers as vividly as you have done. I'd put Shavers halfway between a clubber and a sharp hitter myself. Tyson was sharp.

Duran could stand the former, no doubt, but he wasn't invulnerable to the latter (going back as far as the DeJesus fights).

Because Esteban dropped him for a couple of secs?

The reason why he wasn't stopped at those higher weights, except the Hearns fight, was because he didn't face fighters who were good at 2nd type of punches.

And Hearns just so happens to be ranked by plenty as the number one of that type of puncher, certainly top 5 lol. SRL poleaxed quite a few guys at 147 and above yet Duran was barely worried by his blows. Leonard is certainly the second category of puncher. Lets just face it, Hearns was a huge banger and 100% on his game that day. Simple.

Those fighters who lasted longer against 154lb Hearns were naturally bigger than Duran. There's a reason why fighters are separated by divisions.

Tell that to James Toney, world champ at 160 and still taking the biggest shots from guys weighing 240 odd. 80 odd pounds. Makes Duran's 19 look fruit. Fact is Duran's chin is comparable to Toney, one KO vs a guy some rate the greatest hitter ever is excusable when one looks at Roberto's entire career.

[Senya13]

Rahman, Ruiz, Peter, they aren't 2nd type of punchers. And Toney certainly wasn't a natural 160-pounder, his natural weight was somewhere around light heavyweight or cruiserweight. His big head and short thick neck looked weird when looking at his 160-168 fights.
Considering KO loss of Duran at 154 lbs whereas Duran was a natural lightweight, certainly can't serve as a proof of Hearns' ungodly punching power, we have to look at guys of similar size as himself or bigger whether and how they could handle his punches, and how consistent he was, if we want to evaluate his punching power. And there we see he wasn't very consistent at all.

[JohnThomas1]

Rahman, Ruiz, Peter, they aren't 2nd type of punchers. And Toney certainly wasn't a natural 160-pounder, his natural weight was somewhere around light heavyweight or cruiserweight. His big head and short thick neck looked weird when looking at his 160-168 fights.



Ah, so Toney just happened to be only vulnerable against 2nd type punchers too i see. How on earth do you know 1st type punchers would have had an effect on him anyway? Sounds like speculation. Maybe Duran was a natural welter too.

Considering KO loss of Duran at 154 lbs whereas Duran was a natural lightweight, certainly can't serve as a proof of Hearns' ungodly punching power, we have to look at guys of similar size as himself or bigger whether and how they could handle his punches, and how consistent he was, if we want to evaluate his punching power. And there we see he wasn't very consistent at all.

Rubbish. Cuevas had an iron chin. Roldan was tough, Duran, Schuler had never been down i think, yoyoing Andries at 175, pretty much a 1 punch stop vs Maynard at 180, stunned Hagler, dropped Leonard, stopped heaps who had never been stopped etc etc etc etc. Also factor in two spells of hand problems. Stunned Hill too. Nah, there's no doubting the Hearn's power.

[Doppleganger]

Senya, you're getting a hiding here mate. Oh if I had to put it into boxing terms it would be like RJJ vs Tarver II. Let it go.

[Senya13]

Cuevas fight was at 147. Roldan might have been tough, but like I said, there are different kinds of toughness. Some guys can take terrible punishment with clubbing punches, but one or two perfectly timed punches to the chin, and they are out. You have to take guys who took clean flush punches to the head from hard-hitting punchers (not the slow clubbing ones) without going down, then that would be indicating for their chin toughness. Maynard was a foul blow to the back of the head, Hearns should have been disqualified for it. Stunning people happens a lot, and you don't need to be a big puncher for it. I'm not argueing that Hearns didn't have power, I'm saying that his power at 160 or above is not that intimidating as people seem to think, each time recalling the Duran and Cuevas fights, which happened at lower weights, where Hearns indeed was a fearsome puncher. 160 and above - you have to consider the facts, he was not a KO artist and it usually took him a lot of clean punches to put the guy down or out, and even that happened not very often. Guys like Jackson, McClellan, Shavers, Tua, usually didn't need many clean punches.

[Sonny Carson]

Hearns was a big pucher I mean he had power at every weight he was at. Don't try to underrate Hagler's power dude could punch(52 KOS) and Duran could take a shot. He took shots from Hagler and Iran Barkley. Hearns just caught him with a fast huge right hand on the chin.

[Doppleganger]

Cuevas fight was at 147. Roldan might have been tough, but like I said, there are different kinds of toughness. Some guys can take terrible punishment with clubbing punches, but one or two perfectly timed punches to the chin, and they are out. You have to take guys who took clean flush punches to the head from hard-hitting punchers (not the slow clubbing ones) without going down, then that would be indicating for their chin toughness.

Different kinds of toughness? :huh Sorry Senya but what you just posted above is gobbledygook.

[80s champs]

Here's one for everyone,could Hagler have taken the final punch Hearns landed on Duran? Great leverage there. And I wonder if a fully motivated,more seasoned middleweight Hearns could have handled Hagler better,(you know,the legs and Broken hand situation). It seems like when he fought Shuller,he was more seasoned at the weight he was at than in the first Hagler fight.:bbb .

[Thread Stealer]

Hearns' power above 154lb is grossly overrated.

Tell that to Duran.

Yeah, and Duran would probably say he wouldn't know since he never fought Tommy above 154.

[Street Lethal]

Or James Schuler.

Or Juan Roldan.

[JohnThomas1]

Different kinds of toughness? :huh Sorry Senya but what you just posted above is gobbledygook.

Yeah, i think i'll let this one sit now it's getting even sillier :lol:

[enquirer]

John thomas has very kindly refuted most of the stuff that senya has wrote.....
One should also realise that tommy possibly had to box more at the higher weights as the opponent punched harder,were bigger and he had less physical advantages compared to 147 and 154...hearns is one of the few who hurt/stopped or knocked out guys with one punch aboce his starting championship weight...Did jackson,benn or g-man compete at the weight range tommy did for power? G-man could not stop benn,while benn was stopped by collins,watson and eubank,collins and watson not being notable punchers. Benn was wobbled by mauro galvano and many others... Jackson could not put a dent in g-man,quincy taylor or mike mccallum,does this make him a less than atg puncher? Benns knockouts diminshed greatly from 160 to 168,yet he is still regarded as a great puncher...
Hearns visibly hurting hagler is proof of his middleweight power,dennis andris being bounced off the canvas by a single right hand at LT HEAVY and getting up at 6 and shaky shows that he had plenty of power above 160...Andries had only been stopped by a HEAVY up till this point in his career and was a solid durable lt heavy.
Regardless of whether some guys can take accumulation but not snappy punches (a dubious one anyway.) tommy beat plenty of these 'accumulation' type guys with single shots or so,that shows power however you slice it...
Does anyone think jones is a puncher above 168? Cause he aint had a stoppage for five years....tarver was knocked down by hopkins who also stopped johnson,does this mean hopkins was a better puncher than jones?
We have to accept that styles can affect knockout results and some guys fight defensively and dont engage which makes it very hard to ko them,other fighters know how to hold,duck or spoil,and some fighters are just plain hard to knockout easily regardless of your power...
Anybody who thinks tommy couldnt punch as an atg above 154 is ignoring some glaring facts as well as footage evidence.....
Ps; i think if tommy hit hagler on the point of the chin with the shot he hit duran with then hagler would either be knocked down ,stopped or knocked out,but we have to say that hagler cleverly tucked his chin in and so avoided being hit on the point of the chin....If hearns boxed hagler or didnt break his hands/have wobbly legs the fight would have been very interesting....a rematch would have been great,i think tommy would have taken him as hagler was slipping somewhat....But lets not take away from marvin,i think no fighter in history could have beaten hearns at 160 in the way hagler did that night....

[Senya13]

Excuses, excuses. Hearns wasn't a KO artist at any weight from 160lb up. Period.

[enquirer]

So hagler was wobbled by a non ko artist,roldan knocked out for ten,andries knocked down with one punch etc,etc all by a non ko artist?
Tell me who was a ko artist at 160 and why?

[Senya13]

I'll repeat, who the hell are Roldan and Andries? Are they some kind of underated greats or something?
Nigel Benn stopped Barkley in the 1st round, Hearns stopped him in... err, I forgot, which round did he stop him?
He stopped lotta middleweights and supermiddleweights, guys like Ernie Singletary, Murray Sutherland, Doug DeWitt, James Kinchen, Michael Olajide, they all crumbled by his power.

[enquirer]

Ok. Tell me who are ko artists at middle and why?
By the way,who did roy beat except a green hopkins and toney?Not to mention him getting beat knocked out by the 'all time greats' tarver and johnson...... Are tarver and johnson ko artists at lt heavy?
ps; hearns was hurting barkley vey badly before the stoppage,jones didnt hurt johnson or tarver very much did he?

[Senya13]

Julian Jackson, Gerald McClellan

[enquirer]

Ok,and who did jackson or mclelland knock out at middleweight?
I will tell you,mclelland knocked out nobody of note (jackson was a blown up natural 154 not known for his chin.) and g-man couldnt stop benn whose chin was not the best,despite g-man landing many bombs on nigel....(Nigel was stopped by collins twice,watson and eubank...only eubank was a puncher out of these three who stopped benn,barkley who you class as a non puncher also wobbled benn.)
Jackson stopped nobody of note at 160 either and was taken the distance by thomas tate....
If you count herol graham,dennis milton,ismael negron and g-mans poor middleweight stoppage opposition as qualified to show the power of these guys then i will take roldan,schuler,andries and the wobbling of hagler as proof of hearns being a ko artist......
Compare those hearns stopped at middle with those who jackson and g-man stopped,then tell me whose opposition had more quality? Finally, how many one shot kos did g-man have at the world level?

[Senya13]

So Roldan, Shuler and Andries are better opposition, eh? Ok. As for Ernie Singletary, Murray Sutherland, Doug DeWitt, James Kinchen, Michael Olajide, they all had a chin of granite, close to Chuvalo's level, and were never stopped in their career.

[enquirer]

Yes roldan,andries and schuler were far better than dennis milton,ismael negron and such like....One,andries was a world champion at lt hevy and known for his durability. Roldan was a three time world title challenger,known for his durability and world ranked to fight tommy for the vacant 160 crown,and was a worthy challenger for marvins undisputed crown...Schuler was the unbeaten nabf champion and unbeaten...
Conversely dennis milton and ismael negron were not top challengers,nor known for durability,in fact they were poor on the world level,just hand picked easy pickings....You think hearns wouldnt have squashed all of g-mans and jackson poor challengers?
Finally,when you mention kinchen,olijade,de witt and others you forget to mention that some of these were decent/good fighters who were world ranked contenders (de witt was a wbo world champ.) and also for some of these fights tommy had broken hand problems....surely its not an excuse that if a guy either has a broken hand/hurt hand or is recovering from a hand injury that his punching power will suffer?
And finally,as tommy went up and after his ko loss to barkley do you not think that he planned to box more against the better opposition and use his power more to keep guys at bay,or do you expect him to try to go for the knock out/brawl with guys naturally bigger than him who could wobble him or should he use his almost infallible boxing skills to win in a more safe/sure manner? Tommy was a master boxer as well as a ko artist so he could fall back on thse things when the knockout was elusive, or where 'boxing' was more suited to wining a particular fight...In this way tommy sometimes boxed guys to get a decision and used his power to keep guys at bay/off him rather than pure seek and destroy like jackson and g-man....Tommy could fight both ways,g-man and jackson could only fight by going for the knockout....
ps; tommy also had guys to go the full distance with guys at 154 (minchillo and benitez.),in fact in world title fights at 154 he stopped only 66% of his opponents compared to 80% at world titles at welter...Does this mean he lost power at 154? No,he was at the very least the joint no 1 best single hitting 154 er in history...

[Senya13]

Best hitting 154lb in history? That place belongs to Julian jackson. Only one fighter lasted the distance of all fights Julian won at 154, and that was when he was 36 years old.

[enquirer]

Well i agree julian was a devastating hitter at 154 and even 160...But by your own criteria i would say he didnt really knock out any notables (maybe drayton?) and definately no greats. He also did not stop mccallum despite landing on him. (im not saying thats bad,but by your criteria it may well be.) And i dont care for only the ' only one fighter lasted the distance nonsense with him',mugabi had all 25 of his fights at 154 by knockout before he met hagler,but that doesnt mean he is automatically a bigger puncher than tommy or julian,opposition counts...
And really i feel you are being vague,whether you think julian is number one at 154 is one thing,but why dont you tell us where you rank tommy at 154 and 160 which is more relevant. Is he number two or is he again not a knockout artist according to you? You dont really address my points in my posts and you dont really give objective reasons for your views...

[Senya13]

Jackson was consistent in that if he won the fight, 99% it was a win by KO. With Hearns it wasn't so, far from it.

[Senya13]

Where I rank Hearns at 154 or 160 is actually irrelevant. I'm argueing that placing Hearns at #1 P4P hardest hitter of all time is completely unreasonable, he was probably the hardest hitter at 147lb, but above this weight (154, 160 and so forth) there were punchers who hit harder than him, it's not like he's the hardest hitter at several weights.

[enquirer]

Who cares if when jackson won it was a ko? If mugabi won it was invariably a ko. You didnt answer my question of where you rank hearns power at 154 and 160,come on,answer some questions....

[enquirer]

Can you name any fighter wh was no 1 for power in one division and then moved up divisions and was still the no 1 hitter at the higher weights as well? Jackson was a tremendous hitter at 154 and 160....Hearns at 147,154 and 160,even if you say he wasnt at 160,then he stiil equals jackson as being tremendous at two divisions....why the double standard taking away tommys props and inflating others? G-man was only a puncher at one weight really...
And once again,its not how many you knock out,but WHO you knock out...
Who do you think was the p4p best hitter of all time senya?

[Senya13]

There's the problem again. Hearns "tremendous hitter" at 160lb. The fact remains that Hearns was heavy handed at 160, but no more than that, nobody can count that weight as him being a KO artist there. He only had two divisions where he was a KO artist, 147 and 154. Julian Jackson was a harder hitter at 154 than Hearns was at 147, Jackson's 160 vs Hearns' 154 are about equal. Jackson should be ahead of Hearns in P4P hardest hitters list.

[enquirer]

Well this discussion is now going round in circles about hearns' power value at 160 again...I will say seeing as hearns campaigned at a bigger range of weights and had power at even the higher weights i will say he is better in terms of retaining power in different divisions...can you imagine jackson campaigning at lt heavy? Nor can i....
Tommys opposition as a whole is also much stronger than julians,even at their respective divisions......I will say the difference is tommys power is proven against quality opposition and in many different divisions....Jackson at 154 was awesome,at 160 it looked so as as well,but who knows if he could have knocked out guys at 168 or even durable/great guys at 160????
That being said i recognise jackson as one of the all time greatest p4p one punch hitters with either hand at 154,this mainly on how he looks on film and his fight with mccallum...

[enquirer]

If you say jacksons 160 was the same as hearns 154 are you saying this in a comparitive p4p way or that jackson punched as hard at 160 as tommy at 154?
And tommy at 147 p4p has no equal for one shot power at the world level....His fight with very durable pipino cuevas illustrates this abundantly.....Jackson has no comparable ko over anyone as durable p4p as this.....And thats without mentioning mr roberto.....

[quintonjacksonfan]

Tarver and Johnson are stiffs. The only reason people give them credit is
because they knocked out Jones. Toney was a good fighter but slightly
overated. The guy lost twice to Montell. Hopkins was Green when he fought
Jones. Let's give Clinton Mitchell credit for beating Hopkins too. Jones never knocked
out a great fighter either

[Doppleganger]

For all of Jackson's natural snap and power, and he was a tremendous puncher, he never knocked out a Cuevas or a Duran.

Another thing to ponder. How many punchers in history have destroyed a fighter of the calibre of Roberto Duran? Not many. Here's a clue, Jackson or RJJ ain't on the list.

[Vantage_West]

You claimed his power over 154 is "grossly overrated." (Your words.)

The Schuler fight clearly demonstrates that is isn't.yeah where as the duran fight you saw roberto be beaten becuase he was the smaller man...this was a man who was the same size as him....and showed it wasnt his size it was his naturaly power in both hands(that left hook was very tight but could reach round a fucking corner)

[80s champs]

Hearns/ Duran, me being a great fan of the Hit Man think that Hearn"s blowout of Duran was very highly impressive,and Duran has'nt had that done to him before or since then,but I often wonder was Duran really at his best that night?

[JohnThomas1]

I'll repeat, who the hell are Roldan and Andries? Are they some kind of underated greats or something?


All this coming from a guy who reckons Montell Griffin is as slick as they come

:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl:rofl

[Senya13]

Do you think there were a lot of slicker boxers in history than prime Griffin? The one you have very hard time trying to hit him cleanly to the head, and may miss tens of punches before at least one of them lands?

[quintonjacksonfan]

Sweat Pea your just wrong. Hopkins had a draw with Mercado after

the Jones fight. He was still Green when he fought Jones. Let's not forget the two

stiffs that laid him out for good

[Senya13]

Hopkins wasn't green. He was simply unprepared for the altitude at which the fight with Mercado was held, he was tired by mid-rounds already, that's Hopkins who was known for his discipline at training.

[JohnThomas1]

Do you think there were a lot of slicker boxers in history than prime Griffin? The one you have very hard time trying to hit him cleanly to the head, and may miss tens of punches before at least one of them lands?

What was his first name again? LOL

Just because he had a little success vs your boys Roy and Toney you build the man an empire.

[JohnThomas1]

Hopkins wasn't green. He was simply unprepared for the altitude at which the fight with Mercado was held, he was tired by mid-rounds already, that's Hopkins who was known for his discipline at training.

Hopkins knuckled down to his famous training discipline after this fight. This fight he says was his turning point as a boxer.

[Senya13]

Watch his fights prior to Jones, he's already showing excellent physical form for each bout (not counting his debut).

[JohnThomas1]

Watch his fights prior to Jones, he's already showing excellent physical form for each bout (not counting his debut).

And to take your type of tact, against who? Fukk all ;)

[Senya13]

Physical form is not quite about level of opponents.

[JohnThomas1]

Physical form is not quite about level of opponents.

You really should read what you are writing, i've seldom seen such hipocracy and convenience in all my days.

[Senya13]

You can have a guy, who's coming in best shape even for inferior opponents, such as Hopkins, Mayweather Jr or Jones himself when he started his career, no excessive weight, muscular, stamina, all is there. Or you can see a guy who comes in not very good shape for inferior opponents, such as current heavyweight "prospect" Povetkin, for example, who's getting windy after a couple of rounds (because his natural weight is around 200lb, not 220+lb).

[JohnThomas1]

You can have a guy, who's coming in best shape even for inferior opponents, such as Hopkins, Mayweather Jr or Jones himself when he started his career, no excessive weight, muscular, stamina, all is there. Or you can see a guy who comes in not very good shape for inferior opponents, such as current heavyweight "prospect" Povetkin, for example, who's getting windy after a couple of rounds (because his natural weight is around 200lb, not 220+lb).

So now you turn this into good physical shape = slick as they come? WTF?

[Senya13]

What are you talking about? I talked about Hopkins being not ready (not good enough physical form) for fighting at that high altitude, where he tired out quickly without Mercado having much to do with it. I haven't been to the mountains myself, but I read about it and heard from people who talked about it, how you tire out quickly because there's less oxygen.

[quintonjacksonfan]

Hopkins wasn't near peak for his fight with Jones. The Hopkins of '99

doesn't draw with Mercado no matter what country their fighting

in. Jones biggest claim to fame is his domination over a weight drained

Toney. The funny thing Jones said Toney was just making

excuses and everyone knows it's a big advantage to fight at a lower

weight. He used that same excuse 10 years later against Tarver