Bowe would have crushed Lews in the early 90's

[lefthook31]

Espn Classic showed Lewis Bruno and I was amazed how poor Lewis's balance and skills were at that time. He showed flashes of a decent jab, but his balance and telegraphed right hand were horrible. Bruno was basically kicking his ass for 6 rounds. When he finally got lucky and landed the lefthook, he was literally holding Bruno's head up with one hand while he threw his right to finish him. It was a horrible display of professionalism on Lewis' part, and he must cringe rewatching that fight.
Bowe on the otherhand was well schooled, and had become a real solid complete fighter under Eddie Futch. Regardless of the thought that Bowe was ducking Lewis, I believe Bowe would have wiped the floor with Lewis at that point in their careers.

[Boyd]

Lewis would have done us all a favor and retired Bowe then.

[El Bombasto]

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[El Bombasto]

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[bigG]

i actually agree....at that point, bowe would have had lewis out of his depth in an untidy brawl, lewis hadnt honed his skills to the point where he could have kept bowe away.....i just have visions of lewis, back to the ropes, head getting snapped back by sick uppercuts.....bowe was a fantastically undisciplined in fighter with negligible defence..there is always the possibility that lewis mighta clipped him and stopped him i guess, but i really think riddick would have been lewis biggest nightmare AT THAT POINT IN HIS CAREER......as lewis matured, he would have handled bowe relatively easily......

[El Bombasto]

i actually agree....at that point, bowe would have had lewis out of his depth in an untidy brawl, lewis hadnt honed his skills to the point where he could have kept bowe away.....i just have visions of lewis, back to the ropes, head getting snapped back by sick uppercuts.....bowe was a fantastically undisciplined in fighter with negligible defence..there is always the possibility that lewis mighta clipped him and stopped him i guess, but i really think riddick would have been lewis biggest nightmare AT THAT POINT IN HIS CAREER......as lewis matured, he would have handled bowe relatively easily......

Uh, you are aware that Lewis has a stoppage win over Bowe in the olympic final just prior to both of them turning pro, right?

[lefthook31]

Uh, you are aware that Lewis has a stoppage win over Bowe in the olympic final just prior to both of them turning pro, right?

Ha I was waiting for this response. Obviously you didnt see the vast improvement in Bowe under Eddie Futch. Futch made him into a complete professional fighter. He had an excellent jab, fought well on the inside and was vastly improved from his amatuer days. Lewis on the other hand was still raw and wild and inconsistent. Henry Tillman beat Tyson twice in the olympic trials, but was trashed by Tyson in one round. The pro and amatuer game are two different worlds.

[justaboxingfan]

Are u trying to piss people off or are you new to the sport? Seriously, you're going to turn this thread ugly:ahhhh :rosstheboss

[lefthook31]

Are u trying to piss people off or are you new to the sport? Seriously, you're going to turn this thread ugly:ahhhh :rosstheboss

Are you speaking to me? New to the sport? What makes you think that?

[El Bombasto]

Ha I was waiting for this response. Obviously you didnt see the vast improvement in Bowe under Eddie Futch. Futch made him into a complete professional fighter. He had an excellent jab, fought well on the inside and was vastly improved from his amatuer days. Lewis on the other hand was still raw and wild and inconsistent. Henry Tillman beat Tyson twice in the olympic trials, but was trashed by Tyson in one round. The pro and amatuer game are two different worlds.

His jab improved and he always had good inside fighting skills, but even the rawest version of Lewis wins by stoppage.

[Tony Harrison]

Others have mentioned before the rather unusual conditions inwhich this fight took place. Outdoors in sub-zero conditions with rain pissing down on them all night, Lewis's corner were covering him with a thermal blanket between rounds. It is odd too that people attribute the left hook that scrambled Bruno's brain to complete fluke. Lewis had power and it helped him out in a hard fight. Bruno's jab is also underrated by many.

I think most will agree Lewis was p4p better than Bowe. There isn't really much else to say on the matter.

[PeterNielsen70]

i actually agree....at that point, bowe would have had lewis out of his depth in an untidy brawl, lewis hadnt honed his skills to the point where he could have kept bowe away.....i just have visions of lewis, back to the ropes, head getting snapped back by sick uppercuts.....bowe was a fantastically undisciplined in fighter with negligible defence..there is always the possibility that lewis mighta clipped him and stopped him i guess, but i really think riddick would have been lewis biggest nightmare AT THAT POINT IN HIS CAREER......as lewis matured, he would have handled bowe relatively easily......

I think it's difficult to say.
I also ranked Bowe a little above Lewis in the early and mid 90s – due to Bowe’s physical strength. But perhaps Lewis could have repeated the Olympic Final from 1988.:think

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[lefthook31]

His jab improved and he always had good inside fighting skills, but even the rawest version of Lewis wins by stoppage.

He always had good infighting skills? Did you watch most of his amatuer career? Futch taught him how to infight. Had the fight happend in 93, Bowe would have done the same thing to Lewis that he did to Jorge Luis Gonzalez, another fighter who beat Bowe in the amatuers.

[warrior85]

if so,why did he bin the title rather than fight lewis?

[lefthook31]

Others have mentioned before the rather unusual conditions inwhich this fight took place. Outdoors in sub-zero conditions with rain pissing down on them all night, Lewis's corner were covering him with a thermal blanket between rounds. It is odd too that people attribute the left hook that scrambled Bruno's brain to complete fluke. Lewis had power and it helped him out in a hard fight. Bruno's jab is also underrated by many.

I think most will agree Lewis was p4p better than Bowe. There isn't really much else to say on the matter.

I think he became P4P better. Lewis was a well disciplined fighter, who always lacked respect from the fans, so that was his driving force to continue to win and reign. The addition of Emanuel Steward, who made him into a real pro fighter, was the turning point in his career. I dont think the Lewis of the early 90's would stand a chance against the Lewis of the late 90's, they were just two completely different fighters, both mentally and technically. Bowe came out of the amatuers, and went to one of the top trainers in the game who made him into a fighting machine a lot faster. The problem with Bowe that tarnished his legacy, was his lack of discipline and commitment to the sport once he reached the title, and riches, but in his prime, I believe he would stand a good chance against anyone in the history of the division. There just isnt too many guys with his size, who could fight as well from both the inside and outside.

[justaboxingfan]

Are you speaking to me? New to the sport? What makes you think that?

I haven't heard any analysts or boxing experts to make that claim. Everyone knows Bowe ducked Lewis so I don't see how he would have beat him let alone get in the ring with him.

[RUSKULL]

if so,why did he bin the title rather than fight lewis?

Because he wanted lucrative fights against such fighters as that Cuban with the mohawk :yep :rofl What a challenge! Rock Newman ruined any chance for Bowe to be anything more than a footnote in the HW history books right there. The only reason his name is still brought up at all is his 3 fights with Holyfield & 2 against Golota, and those Golota fights don't exactly flatter him either.

[lefthook31]

Because he wanted lucrative fights against such fighters as that Cuban with the mohawk :yep :rofl What a challenge! Rock Newman ruined any chance for Bowe to be anything more than a footnote in the HW history books right there. The only reason his name is still brought up at all is his 3 fights with Holyfield & 2 against Golota, and those Golota fights don't exactly flatter him either.

Yes Newman did a lot of the damage to Bowes career. He had him going on a world tour after he won the title, and orchestrated the move to trash the WBC title and take fights against Dokes, and Ferguson. Bad move, but I really dont think Bowe was scared of Lewis. Any promoter manager wants to maximize his fighters earning potential becauseof the short window of big paydays. Lewis at that point represented a goood payday but at a higher risk, than having two easy paydays, as part of his three or four fight contract with HBO.

[Zakman]

I've been saying this for YEARS. The Lewis boosters like to portray Bowe as being "afraid" of Lewis - which is essentially just a direct regurgitation of Lewis-camp propaganda of the period, and has no objective support whatsoever.

The truth is that Lewis was by no means ready for Bowe in the early 90s. Some of the more reasonable Lewis fans will admit this, but most seem to buy into the propaganda. I suspect these are people who likely to have been too young to actually experience these events WHILE they were going on.

Bowe peaked earlier than Lewis and, as we all know, did stay at that peak for long. Lewis was still green in 92-93, despite his impressive win over Ruddock - who was WAY overrated at the time. Bowe had simply beaten a better class of fighter, was more developed and complete.

Unfortunately, Bowe and Newman went for the easy money against Dokes and then were gonna take on Mercer, who blew his shot by losing to Fergusson. Then they wanted the Holyfield rematch. A mega-match with Lewis would have been next - the plan seems to have been to take these other fights and make as much money as possible and then take on Lewis in a big bucks unification. Unfortunately, Evander upset their applecart.

I wish it had happened though. An early 90s Bowe would have beaten Lewis up and knocked him OUT. Wish it had happened.

[peter5]

Lewis would have won by late stoppage or UD........he was too smart for Bowe, he would have had to weather the storm, but in the end he would have prevailed

[lefthook31]

I've been saying this for YEARS. The Lewis boosters like to portray Bowe as being "afraid" of Lewis - which is essentially just a direct regurgitation of Lewis-camp propaganda of the period, and has no objective support whatsoever.

The truth is that Lewis was by no means ready for Bowe in the early 90s. Some of the more reasonable Lewis fans will admit this, but most seem to buy into the propaganda. I suspect these are people who likely to have been too young to actually experience these events WHILE they were going on.

Bowe peaked earlier than Lewis and, as we all know, did stay at that peak for long. Lewis was still green in 92-93, despite his impressive win over Ruddock - who was WAY overrated at the time. Bowe had simply beaten a better class of fighter, was more developed and complete.

Unfortunately, Bowe and Newman went for the easy money against Dokes and then were gonna take on Mercer, who blew his shot by losing to Fergusson. Then they wanted the Holyfield rematch. A mega-match with Lewis would have been next - the plan seems to have been to take these other fights and make as much money as possible and then take on Lewis in a big bucks unification. Unfortunately, Evander upset their applecart.

I wish it had happened though. An early 90s Bowe would have beaten Lewis up and knocked him OUT. Wish it had happened.

Bingo.:good

[Fighting Weight]

I agree Bowe would have had a better chance against Lewis back in 92-93 than he would have had a few years later....bottom line is that thanks to Riddick Bowe the fight never happened, and Lewis has a legacy that out-shines the likes of Bowe, Holy and Tyson by miles :yep

[KobeIsGod]

I think it depends when they fought. Early '90s, Lennox was a bit sloppy and green. But by the time he fought Briggs in '98, u could tell he had really put it together.

Problem w/Bowe is he really didn't have a prime and didn't have a long career. For the sake of arguement, let say we're talking about the Bowe-Holyfield I fighter.

Prime Bowe vs. Pre-'98 Lennox -- Bowe UD; Bowe's jab wins it for him
Prime Bowe vs. '98 Lennox -- Lennox by brutal stoppage 5/6

[lefthook31]

I think it depends when they fought. Early '90s, Lennox was a bit sloppy and green. But by the time he fought Briggs in '98, u could tell he had really put it together.

Problem w/Bowe is he really didn't have a prime and didn't have a long career. For the sake of arguement, let say we're talking about the Bowe-Holyfield I fighter.

Prime Bowe vs. Pre-'98 Lennox -- Bowe UD; Bowe's jab wins it for him
Prime Bowe vs. '98 Lennox -- Lennox by brutal stoppage 5/6

Everyones entitled to their own opinion, but I think a prime Bowe, easily handles a prime Lewis.

[Mook]

Lewis had horrendous balance back then, that is unarguable, imo. However, the Bruno fight was an awful, awful performance for him. It was an off-night - it really, really was.

Did Bowe duck him? we'll never know for sure, but Bowe never really fought anyone 'live' apart from Holy - even if, like Golota, they turned out to be good, they were considered easy wins beforehand (another example is Hide - who Bowe called out years before they fought, just as he was being questioned as to whether he would fight Lewis).

the fight to remember is the Ruddock one. To this day, I think it is the best he ever looked. This was the controlled aggression that we would have seen more of but for the Mccall loss and Steward training. Not a better fighter overall to the one that Steward developed him into, as he became a more consistent one - Wlad is very similar in this respect.

But the Lewis that beat Ruddock would have handled Bowe comfortably, imo. remember, bowe really imposed his size on holy, which he couldn't do vs Lewis, and I don't believe for a second that Bowe had LL's firepower.

Lewis would have stopped Bowe in a decent, but anticlimactic bout.

the thing I also liked about the LL around the time of the Ruddock fight was his humility - he claimed for about a year or two he simply wasn't on these guys' levels, and stepped up at just the point he said he would (that said, he always fought decent competition as he stepped it up). he certainly respected Holy more than Bowe, though - he predicted Holy would win the first bout and was pretty excited that Bowe won - because he genuinely thought he could beat him.

One thing we know for certain: LL's camp never exuded any doubts about the winner in a Lewis-Bowe fight, we cannot say that decisively about Bowe's camp.

[barneyrub]

Espn Classic showed Lewis Bruno and I was amazed how poor Lewis's balance and skills were at that time. He showed flashes of a decent jab, but his balance and telegraphed right hand were horrible. Bruno was basically kicking his ass for 6 rounds. When he finally got lucky and landed the lefthook, he was literally holding Bruno's head up with one hand while he threw his right to finish him. It was a horrible display of professionalism on Lewis' part, and he must cringe rewatching that fight.
Bowe on the otherhand was well schooled, and had become a real solid complete fighter under Eddie Futch. Regardless of the thought that Bowe was ducking Lewis, I believe Bowe would have wiped the floor with Lewis at that point in their careers.Nah, watch the Ruddock fight, and much of the Tucker fight, thats how good Lewis could box back then.
Yeah Bruno had a great jab that night, he had a very long reach. He hated Lewis with a passion at the time, so for him it was a grudge fight and he really put everything into it but no, Lewis wasnt lucky to catch him, it was actually about evenly scored by the 7th round and Bruno had sweeling on his eye too and Lewis did what he always did, sucker a guy into coming close and throwing then come out his crouch with a left hook, watch the Briggs fight he did the exact same thing, it just happened to land right on the buttn against Bruno. Rathe rthan cringe you should notice 2 fighters giving it their all and battling through eye damage and showing great heart.
Other than Holyfield, Bowe hadnt fought anyone worthy of your vie wof him. Bowe always had flaws and a sLewis said on the commmentary of Bowe Holyfield, Evander made a mistake by coming inside where Bowe was good, he should have jabbed and moved and thats exactly what Lewis would have done, plus Bowe never had any footwork, he couldnt throw an accurate right, he is overated, who else did he ever beat? Herbie Hide!

[barneyrub]

I think it depends when they fought. Early '90s, Lennox was a bit sloppy and green. But by the time he fought Briggs in '98, u could tell he had really put it together.

Problem w/Bowe is he really didn't have a prime and didn't have a long career. For the sake of arguement, let say we're talking about the Bowe-Holyfield I fighter.

Prime Bowe vs. Pre-'98 Lennox -- Bowe UD; Bowe's jab wins it for him
Prime Bowe vs. '98 Lennox -- Lennox by brutal stoppage 5/6The problem for Bowe is that psychologically he was unerved by Lewis, you only need to watch the ringside fracas after the Bowe Holyfield fight to see Bowe get in his face then sink away when he discovered Lewis was unmoved and told Bowe eyeball to eyeball, "You aint nothing to me Bowe, you should watch your mouth, Im gonna knock you out".

[Doppleganger]

People like to make out that Steward made a huge difference to Lewis. He didn't. Sure he made some nice technical improvements to Lewis's style but 90% of the fighter remained the same. Lewis was a better fighter for sure but he wasn't that much better.

Bowe with hindsight did not turn out to be a mentally strong person. A good example of this is him dropping out of the US Marines after a week I think it was. Therefore, I still think there was some residual doubt in Bowe's mind from the Olympics. Rock Newman urged Bowe to dump the WBC title rather than face Lewis for a good reason. Some will have you believe that this was to generate interest in a bigger match down the road but this really doesn't make sense. It's well known how fickle boxing can be. No promotor/manager is ever going to pull out of a signed and sealed multi-million dollar fight just to generate bigger interest down the road. It's all too apparent how such plans can be derailed easily by a fighter losing a tune-up match.

IMO Newman/Bowe pulled out of the Lewis fight because of the manner of Lewis's victory over Ruddock. Had Lewis struggled then Bowe would have made the fight. People who then say that Bowe would have KO'd Lewis are ignoring the reasons for Lewis's 2 KO losses. Basically Lewis was overconfident and sloppy in one and out of shape in another. Those 2 conditions would not apply to a Bowe fight because Lewis would be focused and well trained. The OP mentioned the Bruno fight. Lewis did not regard Bruno as a great threat and consequently Lewis struggled in the fight. Lewis would be unlikely to treat Bowe the same way.

Could Bowe KO Lewis? Sure he could. Do I think it would have happened? Not a chance. It's my opinion that Lewis busts up Bowe and stops him by round 8.

[Thread Stealer]

I go back-and-forth with this matchup. Lewis improved after his loss to McCall in 1994 when he hired Manny Steward, who helped Oliver exploit LL's bad balance.

Maybe Lennox had a mental edge on Bowe because of the Olympics and Bowe ducked him b/c of it, but I think it was mainly Newman going for the easy HBO dollars.

On the other hand, Bowe rarely fought any big punchers, and his defense was poor. The biggest punchers he faced were probably Hide and Golota. Hide hurt Bowe everytime he landed somewhat clean. Golota rocked and dropped Bowe numerous times. Gonzalez had a nice KO record. Hardly landed anything of note though.

[Mook]

People like to make out that Steward made a huge difference to Lewis. He didn't. Sure he made some nice technical improvements to Lewis's style but 90% of the fighter remained the same. Lewis was a better fighter for sure but he wasn't that much better.

Bowe with hindsight did not turn out to be a mentally strong person. A good example of this is him dropping out of the US Marines after a week I think it was. Therefore, I still think there was some residual doubt in Bowe's mind from the Olympics. Rock Newman urged Bowe to dump the WBC title rather than face Lewis for a good reason. Some will have you believe that this was to generate interest in a bigger match down the road but this really doesn't make sense. It's well known how fickle boxing can be. No promotor/manager is ever going to pull out of a signed and sealed multi-million dollar fight just to generate bigger interest down the road. It's all too apparent how such plans can be derailed easily by a fighter losing a tune-up match.

IMO Newman/Bowe pulled out of the Lewis fight because of the manner of Lewis's victory over Ruddock. Had Lewis struggled then Bowe would have made the fight. People who then say that Bowe would have KO'd Lewis are ignoring the reasons for Lewis's 2 KO losses. Basically Lewis was overconfident and sloppy in one and out of shape in another. Those 2 conditions would not apply to a Bowe fight because Lewis would be focused and well trained. The OP mentioned the Bruno fight. Lewis did not regard Bruno as a great threat and consequently Lewis struggled in the fight. Lewis would be unlikely to treat Bowe the same way.

Could Bowe KO Lewis? Sure he could. Do I think it would have happened? Not a chance. It's my opinion that Lewis busts up Bowe and stops him by round 8.

nice assessment, but I do think Steward worked on LL's jab and balance. he became a more complete fighter - much more adapatable - but rarely had to use that skill because he could control the fight with his jab so well. In another thread someone asked who has/had the best jab of recent years - i've never seen a fighter control so many fights with the jab alone.

I totally agree with your Bruno assessment - and Bruno is much better than whoever you would call Bowe's second best victim.

[Mook]

I go back-and-forth with this matchup. Lewis improved after his loss to McCall in 1994 when he hired Manny Steward, who helped Oliver exploit LL's bad balance.

Maybe Lennox had a mental edge on Bowe because of the Olympics and Bowe ducked him b/c of it, but I think it was mainly Newman going for the easy HBO dollars.

On the other hand, Bowe rarely fought any big punchers, and his defense was poor. The biggest punchers he faced were probably Hide and Golota. Hide hurt Bowe everytime he landed somewhat clean. Golota rocked and dropped Bowe numerous times. Gonzalez had a nice KO record. Hardly landed anything of note though.

very good point on the beard. we just don't know for sure though - though he won, that third Holy fight ruined Bowe, imo.

[Thread Stealer]

Henry Tillman beat Tyson twice in the olympic trials, but was trashed by Tyson in one round. The pro and amatuer game are two different worlds.

Yeah, things can change over 4 years and under different styles of fighting.

I usually don't like to make excuses for someone's mindset, but I really don't think Bowe was all mentally there for the Olympics due to his family problems.

What I do wonder though is if Bowe was mentally affected by the loss to Lewis and ducking him, or if Newman just wanted easy HBO dollars. Maybe both, but I think more so of the latter.

I've learned not to underestimate the power of those HBO dollars.

[Spitfire7]

Would've, could've, should've, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam...(*sigh*)

[Thread Stealer]

very good point on the beard. we just don't know for sure though - though he won, that third Holy fight ruined Bowe, imo.

I think it was all the tough fights for Bowe: the Holyfield trilogy, Coetzer, and his battles with food and the scales.

Not everyone can be like Duran or Toney (who were both much better defensively) and balloon up and down in weight and still have longevity.

[Mook]

It's interesting. this fight - the early to mid 90s versions comes up quite often. A few years ago, I had LL in a close fight. Now I just don't see what Bowe had that would trouble Lewis - even that flawed version. It's probably not helped by how their reputations have changed, but the truth is, time does help you put these guys into perspective. Lewis would have stopped Bowe, I'm sure of that now.

[Mook]

Would've, could've, should've, etc., etc., ad infinitum, ad nauseam...(*sigh*)

ah, come on, it's fun.

[lefthook31]

People like to make out that Steward made a huge difference to Lewis. He didn't. Sure he made some nice technical improvements to Lewis's style but 90% of the fighter remained the same. Lewis was a better fighter for sure but he wasn't that much better.

Bowe with hindsight did not turn out to be a mentally strong person. A good example of this is him dropping out of the US Marines after a week I think it was. Therefore, I still think there was some residual doubt in Bowe's mind from the Olympics. Rock Newman urged Bowe to dump the WBC title rather than face Lewis for a good reason. Some will have you believe that this was to generate interest in a bigger match down the road but this really doesn't make sense. It's well known how fickle boxing can be. No promotor/manager is ever going to pull out of a signed and sealed multi-million dollar fight just to generate bigger interest down the road. It's all too apparent how such plans can be derailed easily by a fighter losing a tune-up match.

IMO Newman/Bowe pulled out of the Lewis fight because of the manner of Lewis's victory over Ruddock. Had Lewis struggled then Bowe would have made the fight. People who then say that Bowe would have KO'd Lewis are ignoring the reasons for Lewis's 2 KO losses. Basically Lewis was overconfident and sloppy in one and out of shape in another. Those 2 conditions would not apply to a Bowe fight because Lewis would be focused and well trained. The OP mentioned the Bruno fight. Lewis did not regard Bruno as a great threat and consequently Lewis struggled in the fight. Lewis would be unlikely to treat Bowe the same way.

Could Bowe KO Lewis? Sure he could. Do I think it would have happened? Not a chance. It's my opinion that Lewis busts up Bowe and stops him by round 8.

Couldnt disagree more. Lewis's balance, and footwork were horrible until Steward got him. He also taught Lewis how to avoid infighting by tieing up and shutting his opponent down on the inside. He also put him in fights to test his will, like in the Mercer fight. He was forced to dig down and fight out a win when he wasnt having his way. Steward made a monumental difference in his career, and I think he would be the first to admit it.

[lefthook31]

Yeah, things can change over 4 years and under different styles of fighting.

I usually don't like to make excuses for someone's mindset, but I really don't think Bowe was all mentally there for the Olympics due to his family problems.

What I do wonder though is if Bowe was mentally affected by the loss to Lewis and ducking him, or if Newman just wanted easy HBO dollars. Maybe both, but I think more so of the latter.

I've learned not to underestimate the power of those HBO dollars.
Well we saw how he handled the Gonzalez situation, and Gonzalez milked that deal all the way until fight time.

[Danny]

Lewis would have done us all a favor and retired Bowe then.

No he wouldn't have. The closest a pro fight between the two came to actually happening, was back in early 1993. Bowe was coming off the title winning performance against Holyfield in Nov. 1992, and his first round KO of Dokes.

At that point, 1993, Bowe was much the superior fighter. Lewis imprved a great deal when Manny Steward became his trainer. Before Manny, Lewis was very gun-shy, & would hardly ever try to impse himself on opponents. Manny developed a some-what aggresive streak into Lewis.

At his best, Bowe was a better in-fighter, than Lewis ever was. Maybe Lewis was stronger, but Bowe had the tools to beat him. At that stage of their careers, I would pick Bowe to win.

Later on, maybe it would have been a different outcome, but not back then.

[Mook]

No he wouldn't have. The closest a pro fight between the two came to actually happening, was back in early 1993. Bowe was coming off the title winning performance against Holyfield in Nov. 1992, and his first round KO of Dokes.

At that point, 1993, Bowe was much the superior fighter. Lewis imprved a great deal when Manny Steward became his trainer. Before Manny, Lewis was very gun-shy, & would hardly ever try to impse himself on opponents. Manny developed a some-what aggresive streak into Lewis.

At his best, Bowe was a better in-fighter, than Lewis ever was. Maybe Lewis was stronger, but Bowe had the tools to beat him. At that stage of their careers, I would pick Bowe to win.

Later on, maybe it would have been a different outcome, but not back then.


:lol: :patsch :nut :rofl :nono Watch the Ruddock and Mason fights. He was a more reckless, aggressive fighter back then, absolutely no doubt about it. Sure as hell not gunshy.

[Doppleganger]

Couldnt disagree more. Lewis's balance, and footwork were horrible until Steward got him. He also taught Lewis how to avoid infighting by tieing up and shutting his opponent down on the inside. He also put him in fights to test his will, like in the Mercer fight. He was forced to dig down and fight out a win when he wasnt having his way. Steward made a monumental difference in his career, and I think he would be the first to admit it.
Fair enough, but how about the rest of my post?

[blistering]

Bowe wouldn't have handled Lewis' power or size and Bowe had a terrible defense.

Lewis would have knocked Bowe out in 5 imo.

The only thing Bowe proved in his career was that he could beat Holyfield, a much smaller fighter. Bowe didn't even do that very cleverly, as he repeatedly allowed Holy to get inside and repeatedly brawled with Holy.

[Thread Stealer]

Before Manny, Lewis was very gun-shy, & would hardly ever try to impse himself on opponents. Manny developed a some-what aggresive streak into Lewis.


Lewis always had that mean streak in him. He showed plenty of aggression in going for the finish against guys like Bruno, Ruddock, Biggs, etc...Sometimes he got reckless and winged too many shots, leaving himself open down the middle.

"Lennox, not the most graceful finisher in the world"- Lampley during Lewis-Jackson.

Also, Lewis was lucky early in his career not to get DQ'd against Acey.

[GazOC]

It was a horrible display of professionalism on Lewis' part

:lol: Damn these professional boxers!!:D

[Mook]

Lewis always had that mean streak in him. He showed plenty of aggression in going for the finish against guys like Bruno, Ruddock, Biggs, etc...Sometimes he got reckless and winged too many shots, leaving himself open down the middle.

"Lennox, not the most graceful finisher in the world"- Lampley during Lewis-Jackson.

Also, Lewis was lucky early in his career not to get DQ'd against Acey.

quite agree, but please tell me more about the Acey fight, I don't know the story there.

[Zakman]

People like to make out that Steward made a huge difference to Lewis. He didn't. Sure he made some nice technical improvements to Lewis's style but 90% of the fighter remained the same. Lewis was a better fighter for sure but he wasn't that much better.

Bowe with hindsight did not turn out to be a mentally strong person. A good example of this is him dropping out of the US Marines after a week I think it was. Therefore, I still think there was some residual doubt in Bowe's mind from the Olympics. Rock Newman urged Bowe to dump the WBC title rather than face Lewis for a good reason. Some will have you believe that this was to generate interest in a bigger match down the road but this really doesn't make sense. It's well known how fickle boxing can be. No promotor/manager is ever going to pull out of a signed and sealed multi-million dollar fight just to generate bigger interest down the road. It's all too apparent how such plans can be derailed easily by a fighter losing a tune-up match.

IMO Newman/Bowe pulled out of the Lewis fight because of the manner of Lewis's victory over Ruddock. Had Lewis struggled then Bowe would have made the fight. People who then say that Bowe would have KO'd Lewis are ignoring the reasons for Lewis's 2 KO losses. Basically Lewis was was overconfident and sloppy in one and out of shape in another. Those 2 conditions would not apply to a Bowe fight because Lewis would be focused and well trained. The OP mentioned the Bruno fight. Lewis did not regard Bruno as a great threat and consequently Lewis struggled in the fight. Lewis would be unlikely to treat Bowe the same way..

Steward didn't make Lewis better??? WIthout Steward Lewis would have been laid out cold several more times than he actually was!!! You guys should thank your lucky stars your man got him.

The thing I always find interesting is how for Lewis fans, if he loses, or doesn't look that good, it's ALWAYS because he "was overconfident and sloppy," "out of shape" or "unfocused" - NEVER because his chin was shaky, or the other guy had the power to trouble him, as in the Bruno, Briggs or Mercer fights - to say nothing of Rahman and McCall! :patsch Lewis is the only guy for whom people seem to feel the need to make endless excuses to justify his obvious shortcomings and every defeat or bad performance. It's indicative of how overrated he is by some, frankly.

Now, on this business of the planned 1993 fight - I have to credit you on your "bird in hand" rationale. This is the first time I've run across this one in these arguments, so I salute you for bringing a new thesis to the discussion. Unfortunately, it's flawed. Clearly, Bowe and Newman stood to make MORE money after the gimme defense against Dokes fighting Mercer and Holyfield, who were BOTH just as big at the time as Lewis in the States and would have commanded in Mercer's case a nearly equal payday (again, not Bowe's fault Ray blew it), and in Holyfield's a higher one.

Furthermore, by trashing the WBC title a Lewis fight became a UNIFICATION match, and therefore automatically would have generated more money, to say nothing of the buildup in the interim. Sure, there was always the risk that Bowe or Lewis could lose prior to the fight being made, but I think when Bowe and Newman surveyed the landscape, this risk was clearly outweighed by the financial gain of the Mercer and Holyfield fights, and the greater payday for an eventual Lewis fight.

[Thread Stealer]

quite agree, but please tell me more about the Acey fight, I don't know the story there.

Acey went down, I can't remember if he took a knee or just got plain dropped, but Lewis hit him when he was down 2 or 3 times. I'll have to check the tape again when I get home.

But I always feel that refs are too lenient on guys hitting opponents when they're down.

For all the times a fighter actually gets punished for this (MAB-JMM, Norris-Waters round 1, Bowe-Mathis), there's many more times when the ref does nothing (Norris-Curry, Norris-SRL, Norris-Waters round 2, Tyson-Halpin, Tyson-Bruno I, Maussa-Harris, DLH-Campanella, Bowe-Ferguson)

Actually when I think about it, Lewis is probably more lucky that Acey had more dignity and didn't try to do an acting job like Montel Griffin. Refs usually just let guys off with a warning (or do nothing) when this foul is committed.

[mario]

bowe never ran from lewis, he would have fought him when the money was right, that tournament between bowe/holyfield and lewis/ruddock was ran by promoters, not sanctioning bodies, since bowe was the undisputed champ he should have been able to call his own shots but he could not, as the wbc was making him fight for less money than he could have got hence the trash can incident

[Mook]

yeah, fair enough. MAB should have been dq-ed, imo

[Thread Stealer]

Steward didn't make Lewis better??? WIthout Steward Lewis would have been laid out cold several more times than he actually was!!! You guys should thank your lucky stars your man got him.

The thing I always find interesting is how for Lewis fans, if he loses, or doesn't look that good, it's ALWAYS because he "was overconfident and sloppy," "out of shape" or "unfocused" - NEVER because his chin was shaky, or the other guy had the power to trouble him, as in the Bruno, Briggs or Mercer fights - to say nothing of Rahman and McCall! :patsch Lewis is the only guy for whom people seem to feel the need to make endless excuses to justify his obvious shortcomings and every defeat or bad performance. It's indicative of how overrated he is by some, frankly.


No he isn't. People do that for plenty of fighters.

As a Holyfield fan, you should know that. Not that you yourself are making them, but I've heard plenty of excuses made for Evander.

[mario]

right on zakman, it was all about money, bowe had actually signed the contract to fight lewis after he dumped the belt, but all lewis had to do was beat mccall and that was when mccall truly threw a wrench in the whole scheme by ruining the eventually bowe/lewis clash

[bigG]

...yes im aware that lewis ko'd bowe in the olympics.....but that was one fight.....i dont doubt that lewis matured into a much better fighter than bowe, but my argument is that prime bowe gives lewis fits...prime lewis would struggle with prime bowe.....its a bit like ali/frazier...no one in their right mind would argue that frazier was a better fighter than ali, or that norton was a superior fighter than ali...but both guys just had styles that ali would always struggle with......bowes style, raw, powerful, unorthodox brawling would always trouble the chess player in lewis.......i stand by my assesment....prime ie early ninties bowe is too much of everything for lewis at that time.......as someone else pointed out, amature dont count for squat...gonzales beat em all and flopped in the pros...hell, duane bobbick beat holmes onto the olympic team and henry tillman beat tyson......

[Loufatski]

Lewis has always been overrated. Bowe-Lewis would have been a great fight. I will always give Golota props for his performance against Bowe. I don't believe Lewis could have ever delivered such a beating, prime or no prime!

[lefthook31]

Fair enough, but how about the rest of my post?

At that point in time, Bowe had just fought and beat Evander Holyfield, who at that time was undefeated and considered the best in the division. He was the undisputed champion, had Eddie Futch in his corner, and was showing some real stuff when he was motivated and in shape. I dont think he would have had any mental problems fighting Lewis at the time.
It was a similar situation with Jorge Luis Gonzales, he had intimidated Bowe and beat him in the olympics, and tried the same tactics throughout the entire promotion leading up to their fight. He was also an undefeated fighter and gold medal winner in the olympics, and Bowe literally ruined his career. He absolutely destroyed him, and showed the fire and determination that Futch thought was gone from Bowe. If anything Bowe could have been just as motivated to beat Lewis, because he knew in his mind, he was trained properly and prepared to fight the pro style better than both of those guys.

[Doppleganger]

Steward didn't make Lewis better??? WIthout Steward Lewis would have been laid out cold several more times than he actually was!!! You guys should thank your lucky stars your man got him.
Woah there a sec Zakman. Where did I say that Steward never improved Lewis. Can you point out where I said that? ;)

The thing I always find interesting is how for Lewis fans, if he loses, or doesn't look that good, it's ALWAYS because he "was overconfident and sloppy," "out of shape" or "unfocused" - NEVER because his chin was shaky, or the other guy had the power to trouble him, as in the Bruno, Briggs or Mercer fights - to say nothing of Rahman and McCall! :patsch Lewis is the only guy for whom people seem to feel the need to make endless excuses to justify his obvious shortcomings and every defeat or bad performance. It's indicative of how overrated he is by some, frankly.

You sure are hard on Lewis, for what reason I just don't know. The guy lost just twice in 14 years. I would accept what you said if Lewis had not been able to win the rematches. That would have indicated that there were fighters that Lewis would never defeat, bogey fighters if you like. But the thing is though Lewis dominated both rematches. That's the point that you consistently fail to mention, and it's that point that somewhat invalidates your argument.

Another thing, if Lewis was so sloppy against Bruno, Briggs and Mercer (and he was), why weren't any of those fighters, noted big punchers all, able to at least floor Lewis, given that you say he had a glass jaw? Don't give me the great defence crap, Lewis was tagged repeatedly by all three.

Now, on this business of the planned 1993 fight - I have to credit you on your "bird in hand" rationale. This is the first time I've run across this one in these arguments, so I salute you for bringing a new thesis to the discussion. Unfortunately, it's flawed. Clearly, Bowe and Newman stood to make MORE money after the gimme defense against Dokes fighting Mercer and Holyfield, who were BOTH just as big at the time as Lewis in the States and would have commanded in Mercer's case a nearly equal payday (again, not Bowe's fault Ray blew it), and in Holyfield's a higher one.

Furthermore, by trashing the WBC title a Lewis fight became a UNIFICATION match, and therefore automatically would have generated more money, to say nothing of the buildup in the interim. Sure, there was always the risk that Bowe or Lewis could lose prior to the fight being made, but I think when Bowe and Newman surveyed the landscape, this risk was clearly outweighed by the financial gain of the Mercer and Holyfield fights, and the greater payday for an eventual Lewis fight.

The thing is though Zakman, if Bowe and Newman were truly confident that they could beat Lewis why didn't they just get on and do the job? How could they have been so confident that Lewis would not lose and so scupper this eventual big payday you talk about? Of course Lewis did lose. We're all sure that Newman was an idiot but was he that big of a fool to ignore a payday that was already there and signed and sealed in lieu of one that could, might happen? That doesn't sound like any boxing promotor I know.

[Doppleganger]

At that point in time, Bowe had just fought and beat Evander Holyfield, who at that time was undefeated and considered the best in the division. He was the undisputed champion, had Eddie Futch in his corner, and was showing some real stuff when he was motivated and in shape. I dont think he would have had any mental problems fighting Lewis at the time.
It was a similar situation with Jorge Luis Gonzales, he had intimidated Bowe and beat him in the olympics, and tried the same tactics throughout the entire promotion leading up to their fight. He was also an undefeated fighter and gold medal winner in the olympics, and Bowe literally ruined his career. He absolutely destroyed him, and showed the fire and determination that Futch thought was gone from Bowe. If anything Bowe could have been just as motivated to beat Lewis, because he knew in his mind, he was trained properly and prepared to fight the pro style better than both of those guys.

Perhaps, perhaps not. I don't think what happened in the olympics would have any real relevance, apart from the mental aspect which could be either negative or positive for Bowe. What I do know is that you cannot compare Jorge Luis Gonzalez to Lennox Lewis. :)

[ajohnfp]

Bowe probably would have beaten Lewis in the early nineties, but it didn't happen. What did happen was disgraceful.

[barneyrub]

bowe never ran from lewis, he would have fought him when the money was right, that tournament between bowe/holyfield and lewis/ruddock was ran by promoters, not sanctioning bodies, since bowe was the undisputed champ he should have been able to call his own shots but he could not, as the wbc was making him fight for less money than he could have got hence the trash can incidentBowe wasnt next in line for a title shot against Holyfield, Ruddock was number 1 contender, Bowe was only allowed to jump ahead of him by the sanctioning bodies if the winner of himself vs. Holyfield agreed to fight the Ruddock lewis winner. Thats why he had to give up the WBC belt if he wasnt going to fight Lewis who by then was the no. 1 mandatory challenger. Your argument sounds as if you might be dennis rappaport, you have the same outlook in thinking your man doesnt need to defend the belt against the mandatory challenger lol.

[barneyrub]

At that point in time, Bowe had just fought and beat Evander Holyfield, who at that time was undefeated and considered the best in the division. He was the undisputed champion, had Eddie Futch in his corner, and was showing some real stuff when he was motivated and in shape. I dont think he would have had any mental problems fighting Lewis at the time.
It was a similar situation with Jorge Luis Gonzales, he had intimidated Bowe and beat him in the olympics, and tried the same tactics throughout the entire promotion leading up to their fight. He was also an undefeated fighter and gold medal winner in the olympics, and Bowe literally ruined his career. He absolutely destroyed him, and showed the fire and determination that Futch thought was gone from Bowe. If anything Bowe could have been just as motivated to beat Lewis, because he knew in his mind, he was trained properly and prepared to fight the pro style better than both of those guys.Gonzalez an olympic gold medallist? I didnt know that. He was a hopeless professional thats for sure.

[Fighting Weight]

Furthermore, by trashing the WBC title a Lewis fight became a UNIFICATION match, and therefore automatically would have generated more money, to say nothing of the buildup in the interim. Sure, there was always the risk that Bowe or Lewis could lose prior to the fight being made, but I think when Bowe and Newman surveyed the landscape, this risk was clearly outweighed by the financial gain of the Mercer and Holyfield fights, and the greater payday for an eventual Lewis fight.

So let me get this straight, the undisputed heavyweight champion of the world ditched a belt in order to set up a unification match further down the road because he thought it would be more lucrative???

Damn and you go on about Lewis fans making excuses for their guy :lol:

[Mr "T"]

Bowe probably would have beaten Lewis in the early nineties, but it didn't happen. What did happen was disgraceful.
Bowe never would have beaten Lewis. Golota beat Bowe twice, easily, guess what lennox would have done....K.o.oooooooooo

[ajohnfp]

Bowe never would have beaten Lewis. Golota beat Bowe twice, easily, guess what lennox would have done....K.o.oooooooooo
By that logic, Bowe would have beaten Lewis just because Lewis lost to Rahman and McCall. :roll:

BTW, Bowe never lost to Golota.

[Zakman]

No he isn't. People do that for plenty of fighters.

As a Holyfield fan, you should know that. Not that you yourself are making them, but I've heard plenty of excuses made for Evander.

You're right, of course - people are ALWAYS making up excuses for fighters. Lewis, though, seems like one of the few ATGs where people REALLY get all twisted up trying to justify why he's the only top level HW champ to get starched twice by second-rate fighters, or why he never fought any of the top guys of his era like Holyfield or Tyson when they were even close to their best, and never fought Bowe at all.:hey

[Fighting Weight]

You're right, of course - people are ALWAYS making up excuses for fighters. Lewis, though, seems like one of the few ATGs where people REALLY get all twisted up trying to justify why he's the only top level HW champ to get starched twice by second-rate fighters, or why he never fought any of the top guys of his era like Holyfield or Tyson when they were even close to their best, and never fought Bowe at all.:hey

Yawn......

Holyfield never fought Tyson at his best either....and he fought Bowe at his best and was found wanting 2 out of 3. He also got stopped by a fat ex middleweight, a far more embarrasing loss than either of Lewis's.

Now spin that :hi:

[lefthook31]

Bowe never would have beaten Lewis. Golota beat Bowe twice, easily, guess what lennox would have done....K.o.oooooooooo

Golota beat Bowe twice??????? Golota lost to Bowe both times via DQ. Bowe may have been losing the fights, but he wasnt folding like like Golota wanted him to, so he bailed out of the fight, like he always did.

[Deebo]

In the early 90's when Bowe was hungry he had a good chance of beating every other heavy out there, including Lewis. Doesn't matter who beat who in the amatures - and it wasn't a knockout it was a ref stoppage. And many other fighters have lost to people in the amatures and gone on to beat them in the pros ie: Tyson, Mayweather, Mosley. Bowe was awesome for about 3 - 4 years. Unfortunately he pulled a bitch move and elected not to fight Lewis. Pity.

[Heavyrighthand]

Lewis would be too much for Bowe at any point in Bowe's career.

[C.J.Rock]

Espn Classic showed Lewis Bruno and I was amazed how poor Lewis's balance and skills were at that time. He showed flashes of a decent jab, but his balance and telegraphed right hand were horrible. Bruno was basically kicking his ass for 6 rounds. When he finally got lucky and landed the lefthook, he was literally holding Bruno's head up with one hand while he threw his right to finish him. It was a horrible display of professionalism on Lewis' part, and he must cringe rewatching that fight.
Bowe on the otherhand was well schooled, and had become a real solid complete fighter under Eddie Futch. Regardless of the thought that Bowe was ducking Lewis, I believe Bowe would have wiped the floor with Lewis at that point in their careers.

Bowe would just have got his fat butt Ko'd AGAIN!!!!! And he knew it hence the ducking and renaging:admin :admin :admin

[C.J.Rock]

You're right, of course - people are ALWAYS making up excuses for fighters. Lewis, though, seems like one of the few ATGs where people REALLY get all twisted up trying to justify why he's the only top level HW champ to get starched twice by second-rate fighters, or why he never fought any of the top guys of his era like Holyfield or Tyson when they were even close to their best, and never fought Bowe at all.:hey

Because all 3 ducked Lewis. Bowe renaged and gave up the WBC belt coz he was scared of Lewis. Tyson (King) paid Lennox $4 mil to step aside and let him fight Holyfield first. We all know what happened then
When Lennox eventually got Holyfield and kicked his ass Eugenia Williams showed her complete lack of boxing knowledge and Larry O Conner freaked out and robbed Lewis One their best day NEITHER could beat Lewis :bbb :bbb :bbb :thumbsup :deal

[salsanchezfan]

Tough to say. It boils down to whether Bowe could work his way inside, because Lewis' jab and straight right were better, whereas Bowe was far superior inside. If Bowe can take what he has to in order to get inside, he could take it. If Bowe loses heart and decides it costs too much to take the fight where he needs it to be, Lewis stops him.

[dyolf82]

Anybody would have crushed Lewis in the 90's

[Thread Stealer]

Because all 3 ducked Lewis. Bowe renaged and gave up the WBC belt coz he was scared of Lewis. Tyson (King) paid Lennox $4 mil to step aside and let him fight Holyfield first. We all know what happened then
When Lennox eventually got Holyfield and kicked his ass Eugenia Williams showed her complete lack of boxing knowledge and Larry O Conner freaked out and robbed Lewis One their best day NEITHER could beat Lewis :bbb :bbb :bbb :thumbsup :deal

Tyson and Bowe avoided Lewis for the easy money, but I don't see how Holyfield did.

Holyfield lost the title to Bowe in November 1992, 2 weeks after Lewis beat Ruddock. When he regained it from Bowe, his first defense was Moorer, whom I believe was the mandatory. Holyfield has maintained that his goal ever since the first Bowe loss was to be the undisputed champ, so he's got to fight mandatories in order to do this. Moorer beat Holyfield.

By the time Holyfield won a belt again versus Tyson, he gave Tyson an immediate rematch, then fought Moorer for the IBF belt. Then he fought IBF mandatory Vaughn Bean, then Lewis to unify the titles.

[Jennifer Love Hewitt]

Bowe was easy to hit. Bowe NEVER faced a big puncher. Bowe lost to Lewis in the amatuers. Bowe chickened out rather than fight Lewis. Bowe was beaten silly by Andrew Golota. Little Evander Holyfield was able to put Bowe on the canvass... Short of landing a lucky punch, I see NOTHING to indicate that Bowe could defeat a truly great fighter like Lewis.
Bowe is a myth. He is not or was never anywhere near great. He's on the level of a Hasim Rahman, maybe lower. His whole rep is built of the fact that he had some exciting fights with Holyfield.

[salsanchezfan]

Anybody would have crushed Lewis in the 90's


...........Yet so few did. :roll:

[Thread Stealer]

Anybody would have crushed Lewis in the 90's

True.

Especially given the fact that Lewis lost so many times in the 90s (once), and Lewis was involved in so many close decisions (1, maybe 2).

[Zakman]

Tyson and Bowe avoided Lewis for the easy money, but I don't see how Holyfield did.
Don't bother, these nuthuggers say EVERYBODY "avoided" Lewis. :patsch It's how they justify overrating the guy when he faced NONE of the greatest fighters of his era when they were at their best, and didn't face Bowe at ALL.

These fights didn't get made when they "should" have for the same reasons fights usually don't get made in boxing - financial reasons, external factors, and boxing politics. :yep

The fanboys just try to always blame it on the other guys to justify the glaring omissions in their man's record. They HAVE to! :nod

[DamonD]

Anybody would have crushed Lewis in the 90's
How to wreck your ESB reputation in just 4 posts. Not even a rabid anti-Lewis guy like Zakman would come up with such prime bullshit.

Go away and get some boxing education.

[Farmboxer]

Lewis knocked Bowe out in the amateurs. Rock Newman would not give Lewis a shot at Bowe. Lewis would have knocked Bowe out again, but Bowe became a good boxer after Eddie Futch trained him.

[SevenSamurai]

I think the major question here is who had the better career and will go down as the greater heavyweight champion, and who earnt more money?

Lewis.

Who is still currently fighting in a next month against some bum because his broke ass could not save any money?

Bowe.

Onto the lesser questions...

Who was the better fighter in 1993?

Bowe

Bowe would have beaten lewis in 1993, but that was because that was during Bowe's prime and when Lewis had not began to reach his. Lewis' prime began around 97. This is a full 4 years later by which time Bowe had "retired".

It does not at all effect Lewis' legacy that Bowe in 1993 would have beaten him, as Lewis's prime is 1997-2000.

[Mendoza]

Lewis would have done us all a favor and retired Bowe then.

When two very large and powerful men meet in the ring, anything can happen. My best guess is Lewis wins. I just can’t get over how easily Lewis landed his right hand on Bowe, and how much it hurt Bowe.

Having said that, Bowe developed much quicker than Lewis did. The Bowe who won the title vs Holyfield in the first fight would have beaten Lewis in the same date I think.

Overall, I like Lewis to win. A pity we never saw the match.

[Doppleganger]

Golota beat Bowe twice??????? Golota lost to Bowe both times via DQ. Bowe may have been losing the fights, but he wasnt folding like like Golota wanted him to, so he bailed out of the fight, like he always did.
I think pretty much everyone who watched those 2 fights would say that Golota would have won had he not been DQ'd. It's better to say that Golota lost those fights rather then Bowe winning, because in both fights Golota was clearly having the upper hand.

[PIRA]

Lewis had horrendous balance back then, that is unarguable, imo. However, the Bruno fight was an awful, awful performance for him. It was an off-night - it really, really was.

Did Bowe duck him? we'll never know for sure, but Bowe never really fought anyone 'live' apart from Holy - even if, like Golota, they turned out to be good, they were considered easy wins beforehand (another example is Hide - who Bowe called out years before they fought, just as he was being questioned as to whether he would fight Lewis).

the fight to remember is the Ruddock one. To this day, I think it is the best he ever looked. This was the controlled aggression that we would have seen more of but for the Mccall loss and Steward training. Not a better fighter overall to the one that Steward developed him into, as he became a more consistent one - Wlad is very similar in this respect.

But the Lewis that beat Ruddock would have handled Bowe comfortably, imo. remember, bowe really imposed his size on holy, which he couldn't do vs Lewis, and I don't believe for a second that Bowe had LL's firepower.

Lewis would have stopped Bowe in a decent, but anticlimactic bout.

the thing I also liked about the LL around the time of the Ruddock fight was his humility - he claimed for about a year or two he simply wasn't on these guys' levels, and stepped up at just the point he said he would (that said, he always fought decent competition as he stepped it up). he certainly respected Holy more than Bowe, though - he predicted Holy would win the first bout and was pretty excited that Bowe won - because he genuinely thought he could beat him.

One thing we know for certain: LL's camp never exuded any doubts about the winner in a Lewis-Bowe fight, we cannot say that decisively about Bowe's camp.

Excellent post. You cannot argue this on the grounds of actual events - Ll stepped up, remained active and became a better over a longer period of time. Would Bowe have defeated LL? I dont think so for one reason only. Discipline. Whatever would have to be done LL did and proved this time and time again. As for Bowe i cannot see him achieving the hard fight prep and forgetting the past once his strength doen't work.

[PIRA]

People like to make out that Steward made a huge difference to Lewis. He didn't. Sure he made some nice technical improvements to Lewis's style but 90% of the fighter remained the same. Lewis was a better fighter for sure but he wasn't that much better.

Bowe with hindsight did not turn out to be a mentally strong person. A good example of this is him dropping out of the US Marines after a week I think it was. Therefore, I still think there was some residual doubt in Bowe's mind from the Olympics. Rock Newman urged Bowe to dump the WBC title rather than face Lewis for a good reason. Some will have you believe that this was to generate interest in a bigger match down the road but this really doesn't make sense. It's well known how fickle boxing can be. No promotor/manager is ever going to pull out of a signed and sealed multi-million dollar fight just to generate bigger interest down the road. It's all too apparent how such plans can be derailed easily by a fighter losing a tune-up match.

IMO Newman/Bowe pulled out of the Lewis fight because of the manner of Lewis's victory over Ruddock. Had Lewis struggled then Bowe would have made the fight. People who then say that Bowe would have KO'd Lewis are ignoring the reasons for Lewis's 2 KO losses. Basically Lewis was overconfident and sloppy in one and out of shape in another. Those 2 conditions would not apply to a Bowe fight because Lewis would be focused and well trained. The OP mentioned the Bruno fight. Lewis did not regard Bruno as a great threat and consequently Lewis struggled in the fight. Lewis would be unlikely to treat Bowe the same way.

Could Bowe KO Lewis? Sure he could. Do I think it would have happened? Not a chance. It's my opinion that Lewis busts up Bowe and stops him by round 8.

Yep - the quitting the marines, other slips in preps and past failure directly against the man seals it for me. There is no way LL would have been unprepared - complacency did not set until till much later and was recognised and corrected. The condition's of the Bruno fight largely goes unrecognised when trying to use this bout as an example - I cannot imagine why the bout was planned in this way and went ahead in these conditions.

[lefthook31]

I think pretty much everyone who watched those 2 fights would say that Golota would have won had he not been DQ'd. It's better to say that Golota lost those fights rather then Bowe winning, because in both fights Golota was clearly having the upper hand.
I dont believe that would have been the case int he second fight.

[lefthook31]

Yep - the quitting the marines, other slips in preps and past failure directly against the man seals it for me. There is no way LL would have been unprepared - complacency did not set until till much later and was recognised and corrected. The condition's of the Bruno fight largely goes unrecognised when trying to use this bout as an example - I cannot imagine why the bout was planned in this way and went ahead in these conditions.

He may have been prepared, but it wouldnt have been enough for the well schooled Bowe at that time. Correa would tell him to go out there and knock him out. He never was a good trainer for Lewis, and never had him utilizing his talents, like Manny Steward did.

[2smart4u]

:patsch no he wouldnt have !

[Boinko]

Don't bother, these nuthuggers say EVERYBODY "avoided" Lewis. :patsch It's how they justify overrating the guy when he faced NONE of the greatest fighters of his era when they were at their best, and didn't face Bowe at ALL.

These fights didn't get made when they "should" have for the same reasons fights usually don't get made in boxing - financial reasons, external factors, and boxing politics. :yep

The fanboys just try to always blame it on the other guys to justify the glaring omissions in their man's record. They HAVE to! :nod

Heh, Zakman yet again getting testy in a Lewis thread when someone dares to point out the inadequacies in his own boy's (Holyfield's) record.

But, there is no doubt he has to champion the Bowe cause. Otherwise it won't look so good on his boy since that overrated chump Riddick beat Evander two out of three times.

[Fighting Weight]

Heh, Zakman yet again getting testy in a Lewis thread when someone dares to point out the inadequacies in his own boy's (Holyfield's) record.

But, there is no doubt he has to champion the Bowe cause. Otherwise it won't look so good on his boy since that overrated chump Riddick beat Evander two out of three times.

Holyfields resume is basically beating up a past his best Tyson and losing twice to Bowe, and erm that's it basically, unless you cound fat, disinterested Douglas and old Foreman and Holmes. No rational man could rate Holyfield above Lewis. Of course if an irrational man was to try to do just that then claiming Bowe to be better than he actually was would have to be part of the agenda too :yep

[Butch Coolidge]

Bowe probably had the ability to beat Lewis yet I think he lacked the confidence to fight him and win. I think Lewis just wins this because Bowe couldn't generate a winner's mentality. If Bowe simply moved to his right I think Lewis could not have cut him off and he would have stayed a step and a half in front of Lewis but I really see Bowe freezing in his tracks and being stopped.

[Butch Coolidge]

Holyfields resume is basically beating up a past his best Tyson and losing twice to Bowe, and erm that's it basically, unless you cound fat, disinterested Douglas and old Foreman and Holmes. No rational man could rate Holyfield above Lewis. Of course if an irrational man was to try to do just that then claiming Bowe to be better than he actually was would have to be part of the agenda too :yep

That's funny. Holyfield was perceived as the "old man" who was going to be destroyed in less than a round before their first fight.

[Fighting Weight]

That's funny. Holyfield was perceived as the "old man" who was going to be destroyed in less than a round before their first fight.

I wasn't talking about Holyfields condition, I was talking about Tyson. Holyfield was dismissed yeah but it turned out he was as good as he'd ever been in those 2 fights.

[lefthook31]

Holyfields resume is basically beating up a past his best Tyson and losing twice to Bowe, and erm that's it basically, unless you cound fat, disinterested Douglas and old Foreman and Holmes. No rational man could rate Holyfield above Lewis. Of course if an irrational man was to try to do just that then claiming Bowe to be better than he actually was would have to be part of the agenda too :yep
Your kidding right? Who has Lewis fought?? Briggs, Akinwande, Tua, Morrison?? Cmon, not even close to Holy's competition. Lewis will always be rated behind Holyfield in the record books. His competition was b- minus level at best, and just like Holy beat an old Foreman and Holmes, Lewis beat an old Tyson and Holyfield, and I wouldnt rate his wins over Holyfield that spectacular, or the disinterested pot smoking Hawaii training Tyson. Who trains for a fight in Hawaii and smokes pot the whole time, only Tyson...

[Fighting Weight]

Your kidding right? Who has Lewis fought?? Briggs, Akinwande, Tua, Morrison?? Cmon, not even close to Holy's competition. Lewis will always be rated behind Holyfield in the record books. His competition was b- minus level at best, and just like Holy beat an old Foreman and Holmes, Lewis beat an old Tyson and Holyfield, and I wouldnt rate his wins over Holyfield that spectacular, or the disinterested pot smoking Hawaii training Tyson. Who trains for a fight in Hawaii and smokes pot the whole time, only Tyson...

Who did Holyfield fight that was better than Briggs, Akinwande, Tua, Morrison (as you put it)??

Bert Cooper?? :rofl Michael Moorer?? :rofl :rofl

You wouldn't rate Lewis's wins over Holy as being spectacular, fair enough cos they weren't spectacular - but Lewis owned Holy in the first fight, and fought him at his own game in the 2nd fight, got butted several times (surprise surprise) and still won comfortably :deal

Lewis is considerably greater than Holyfield.

[2smart4u]

Who did Holyfield fight that was better than Briggs, Akinwande, Tua, Morrison (as you put it)??

Bert Cooper?? :rofl Michael Moorer?? :rofl :rofl

You wouldn't rate Lewis's wins over Holy as being spectacular, fair enough cos they weren't spectacular - but Lewis owned Holy in the first fight, and fought him at his own game in the 2nd fight, got butted several times (surprise surprise) and still won comfortably :deal

Lewis is considerably greater than Holyfield.:yep I must agree !

[Fighting Weight]

:yep I must agree !

In that case I've changed my mind :rofl

[Max Molyneux]

Lewis would of busted Bowe's lip like Alabama man!

[Fighting Weight]

perfect post, yet I see no riposte? Could it be that you are actually speaking the truth?

He'll come back with his usual line which is something along the lines of 'no other heavyweight champion ever got stopped in the 2nd round to Oliver McCall and in the 5th round to Hasim Rahman in a title fight EVER, which means Holy is better than Lewis' :nut :nut :nut

It's always carefully worded to say 'early rounds' and 'title fight', for obvious reasons :yep

[2smart4u]

In that case I've changed my mind :rofl:yep just remember what your saying when the argument involves other fighters !

[Fighting Weight]

:yep just remember what your saying when the argument involves other fighters !

Just cos Bowe wouldn't beat Lewis doesn't mean he wouldn't fuck WALDO up - he would, or at least the version that beat Holy would :happy :happy :happy :happy

[Butch Coolidge]

Just cos Bowe wouldn't beat Lewis doesn't mean he wouldn't fuck WALDO up - he would, or at least the version that beat Holy would :happy :happy :happy :happy

I doubt it. Bowe was afraid of Lewis. He would have been afraid of Klitschko too, two handed KO power. I think WK would have ripped him much, much worse than Golota did, even a prime Bowe.

[lefthook31]

Who did Holyfield fight that was better than Briggs, Akinwande, Tua, Morrison (as you put it)??

Bert Cooper?? :rofl Michael Moorer?? :rofl :rofl

You wouldn't rate Lewis's wins over Holy as being spectacular, fair enough cos they weren't spectacular - but Lewis owned Holy in the first fight, and fought him at his own game in the 2nd fight, got butted several times (surprise surprise) and still won comfortably :deal

Lewis is considerably greater than Holyfield.

Lewis' great competition that he established his legacy with went on to accomplish what in the division, compared to Holyfields????? Thats the best way to judge it. :hi:
Akinwande trash collector
Tua professional eater
Briggs, great asthma champ
Grant, cab driver
Ruddock professional spleef roller
Golota, starring in the silence of the lambs II
the list goes on and on

[2smart4u]

Just cos Bowe wouldn't beat Lewis doesn't mean he wouldn't fuck WALDO up - he would, or at least the version that beat Holy would :happy :happy :happy :happy:lol: you were talking about HOLY ! And neither of them would ever beat VLAD !:deal :hey

[crippet]

Golota beat Bowe twice??????? Golota lost to Bowe both times via DQ. Bowe may have been losing the fights, but he wasnt folding like like Golota wanted him to, so he bailed out of the fight, like he always did.


What a tactician Bowe was!

I wonder if he would have tried the same method against Lewis
'Get your opponent to repeatedly beat the living shit out of you to such a degree that inevitably they will be hitting you with low blows or gas out.

This one style of fighting Bowe had only seemed to work well against blown up cruiserweights.

[liger05]

Maybe but both in there prime Lewis wins a UD.