Dispatching The Former Champion: Rate these wins [Archive]

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McGrain

03-26-2008, 08:44 AM

Ezzard

03-26-2008, 09:04 AM

Fitzsimmons - beat a bigger man and was coming from behind.
Tunney - Dempsey was old and not what he was but Tunney boxed brilliantly and had to get off the floor to do it.
Louis - Baer was always dangerous and Louis was clinical
Marciano - Louis was still a contender...
Johnson - Jeff was at least in shape and prepared
Tyson - Holmes took the fight at short notice with no tune ups.

Russell

03-26-2008, 09:16 AM

Holmes looked scared/weary pre-fight, and just didn't seem like himself. Once he became active a few years later he began to look very good.

Great performance by Tyson, but not the best on that list.

People underrate Tunney's wins over Dempsey for some reason.

Dempsey hadn't exactly been fighting grueling fights the last half decade... He had taken it easy, healed...

And the second Tunney fight, Dempsey trained like a maniac and worked himself into amazing shape.

Not to mention that they were the same age as one another, and Tunney had been in MORE fights than Dempsey, including several with one of the most damaging fighters of all time, Harry Greb.

janitor

03-26-2008, 09:22 AM

[quote=McGrain]
Bob Fitzimmons over James J Corbett

Huge.

Bob Fitzsimmons was a former middleweight, taking on the best heavyweight in the world at the time. He did something that nobody has done since.

Jack Johnson over James J Jeffries

Decent win.

Jeffries was prety much a shell so I do not see it as a career defining performence.

Gene Tunney over Dempsey II

Verry good win.

Dempsey still had enough left to beat Jack Sharkey faded or otherwise. The way that Tunney won should also be taken into acount.

Joe Louis over Max Baer

Outstanding win.

Baer was arguably the most dangerous fighter in the world at the time and Louis dominated him 14 months into his profesional career.

Rocky Marciano over Joe Louis

Good win.

Louis although shot was still probably one of the most dangerous heavyweights around at the time.

Mike Tyson over Larry Holmes

Verry good win.

Holmes was past his best but nobody should ever able to dispatch him in that way. Holmes would go on to beat Ray Mercer.

OLD FOGEY

03-26-2008, 10:17 AM

Not an exhaustive list but here are some examples off a great champion dispatching a comebacking/past-peak former champion. How highly (or not) do you rate these wins?

Bob Fitzimmons over James J Corbett

Jack Johnson over James J Jeffries

Gene Tunney over Dempsey II

Joe Louis over Max Baer

Rocky Marciano over Joe Louis

Mike Tyson over Larry Holmes

It's a varied bunch - for example Jeffries is seen as a bit of a shell when Johnson beat him up, but many see Holmes as Tyson's best win.

Your opinion, on one or all?

1. Fitz-Corbett----Corbett was the champion. Most impressive for a man who was only a modern super-middleweight to take out the best heavy of the day.

2. Johnson-Jeffries----Jeff worked himself into top shape, but because of six years off and no tune-ups, impossible to view this as a really top shelf win.

3. Tunney-Dempsey----A very impressive win. Dempsey was good enough to ko Sharkey and had worked himself into top shape. He was only 32, younger than most on this list.

4. Louis-Baer----Max was in his prime, but really not the fighter Jeff, Dempsey, Louis, and Holmes were. Interestingly, all of these old fighters, even Holmes, could arguably be said to have done as well or better than Baer did.

5. Marciano-Louis----Louis had gone back a long way, but was still one of the toughest heavyweights around and so an impressive win for Marciano.

6. Tyson-Holmes----Holmes was certainly past it, but his subsequent career proved he had something left and Tyson knocked him out, a feat no one else accomplished before or afterward. An impressive win.

McGrain

03-26-2008, 02:51 PM

I feel that Fitzsimmons v Corbett may be the biggest of these wins. Pollack notes that Fitz probably would have "turned pro at 147" if he was a modern fighter, and there's something to that. He certainly wouldn't have been lighter than 154. For him to beat a great (if past peak) champion in the way that he did all the way up at HW/modern CW is a pretty close to as good as it gets. That he had to tough it out to do that makes it even more impressive.

Jackson's win over Jeffries impresses me the least. James was overweight and had been inactive. I also have my doubts concerning Jeffries' mental state going into the fight.

Gene Tunney's win over Dempsey is the win I would put in second place. Imagine - a legendary champion looks poor in losing effort gets a chance at redemption. Surely the invincible puncher takes it? But Tunney is cool, cool, cool.

Joe Louis over Max Baer is a win for reasons that have already been mentioned, mainly Louis' relative inexpience. Again, it doesn't rank up there with Tunney/Fitzsimmon's efforts on account of the mental state of the opponent, here I think Baer was right neither before or during. But Louis isn't to be penalised to heavily for putting the fear of God into his opponents.

Rocky Marciano over Joe Louis - never seen it, don't know much about it, but I will just say that Marciano is made to beat down old fighters. Again, i'm mot suggesting he should be penalised for this, just that it might be easier for him to take out veterans than most.

I've always felt that Holmes looked like shit against Tyson. I certainly rank it below Mike's best wins.

McGrain

03-26-2008, 02:51 PM

6. Tyson-Holmes----Holmes was certainly past it, but his subsequent career proved he had something left and Tyson knocked him out, a feat no one else accomplished before or afterward. An impressive win.

A valid point.

mcvey

03-26-2008, 03:12 PM

Duodenum

03-26-2008, 08:07 PM

Louis over Max Baer is the biggest win in my mind. Joe himself flatly stated that this was his all-time peak physical performance, and it came against a newly dethroned 26 year old former heavyweight champion who was in his own athletic prime. Joe outslugged him in that legendary first round exchange, and was weathering another furious assault against the ropes from Max as round two came to an end. Baer had never been decked in 48 prizefights. Louis did it to him three times, although it's obvious that Maxie chose to go down and stay there to avoid further punishment. ("They're entitled to see a fight, not a funeral.")

Maxie's only two decisive losses in his remaining 31 bouts over six years would come against Lou Nova (ushering in the advent of televised boxing). Baer avenged his 12 decision loss to Tommy Farr in London (which led to Farr's challenge of Louis), by bouncing Tommy off the deck twice in the early rounds, to take the 15 round return.

Baer sustained such a severe cut inside his mouth the first time he lost to Nova, that it would have been virtually impossible for anybody to have a shot at winning with such a wound. (It does not matter if your name is Ali, Cobb, Foreman, Chuvalo, Marciano, Dempsey or Louis. If you cannot breathe, you are not going to win. Yet, incredibly, Maxie came within a round and a half of lasting the 12 round distance with Nova.)

It was only in his career swan song with Nova that Max Baer clearly lost the physical ability to be a top heavyweight contender, the only time anybody dropped him besides Louis, and the only time he was ever obviously punched to the floor against his own volition. (Look at how he appears to fall to escape further punishment from Louis, then compare that to the end of the second Nova fight. At just barely 32, Max Baer had finally found himself in a situation where he could not choose to withstand the force of an attack. Incidently, while he is one of boxing's classic underachievers, he also knew precisely when to quit, specifically upon discovering he could no longer stand up to Nova's power. This is an often overlooked fact of his career, that he was not one of those who competed for too long.)

In light of the career Pat Comiskey would go on to have, Maxie's final career win is an awesome display of blistering power. That was the first of only two stoppage defeats Pat would have in 87 fights. (Granted, he should not have been in there with Baer at his young age then, but nobody else ever destroyed Comiskey like that at any other stage of his 13 year career.) Baer was very consistent as a former champion, doing very well with veterans like Galento and Bearcat Wright, and young lions Farr and Comiskey.

Yes, Louis had him seriously psyched out before their match, and Maxie did begin looking for a soft spot to lay down on once he hit Joe with his best shots. Nonetheless, considering Baer's career through the remaining half of the 1930s, right on up until the eve of U.S. entry into WW II, the nature of this win by Louis should be considered a monumental success. Even with the heart and determination of an Ali or Marciano, Maxie would not have had the answer for the triple hook Louis ended round three with.

My choice is to honor the letter of the thread question, and not consider Fitzsimmons/Corbett, as both were reigning champions of their respective divisions at the time, and not former champions.

Now, about the others.

Tunney/Dempsey II was an astounding exhibition of boxing prowess and resiliency by Tunney, who had been inactive since dethroning Jack. Dempsey had looked dreadful in the early stages with Sharkey, but was coming on at the time the controverisal punch below the belt occurred. (Considering what a dirty fighter Sharkey was, some might consider this poetic justice. Of course the Gob completely freaked Dempsey out during Jack O'Sullivan's pre-fight instructions, with his newfangled stare-down technique. "What is that? What's he doing?" Personally, I think I'd rather have Jack Dempsey mad at me than scared shitless of me. Foreman and Liston might have frightened Jack so much that those big goons would be lucky to have a pulse remaining after 30 seconds of action. There are certain wild animals one should never attempt to corner in a cage, lest they tear your head off in a terrified swipe of desperation. Quoth Dempsey on Willard, "I wasn't just fighting for a title, I was fighting for my LIFE.")

Gene could have gotten up as quickly as Ali did against Cooper and Frazier, or Holmes against Shavers, despite ricocheting off the ropes into a monstrously short hook. Yet, he scored a flash KD himself in the following round. I suspect Dempsey's hip was hampered far more seriously by getting landed on following Firpo's shove out of the ring than Jack ever really let on. (Past the age of 80, Dempsey said it never stopped hurting him.) We'll never know if the footspeed Jack had prior to Firpo would have allowed him to catch Gene enough in that round to regain the championship. Even so, if it was ever humanly possible for anybody in boxing history to take Tunney out with a single punch, then that hook, encased as it was in that horsehair padded five ounce glove, would have been the one to do it. I rate this as the second best win on the list.

Number three is Marciano/Louis for me. Dempsey had a bad hip against Tunney, while Louis had that nasty tumor in his left shoulder during his comeback bid. But Joe had put Lee Savold down and out, while Marciano later failed to take Savold off his feet, or force the referee to stop it. (True, Rocky sent Savold to the hospital and retired him, but Lee's corner pulled a "French exit" between rounds, and Savold did last marginally longer against Marciano than Louis.) Joe was also coming off a handy decision win over Jimmy Bivins, was much more impressive against Freddie Beshore than Charles had been, and had the nerve to give both Agramonte and Marciano stablemate Brion second chances to improve on their initial failed attempts to derail his comback. Louis was obviously no longer the combination puncher he had been as champion, but could still compete over 15 rounds, and was winning consistently over ten. Charles had decisioned him cleanly, but it was no cakewalk for Ezz.

In hindsight, the general public can easily dismiss Marciano/Louis as a tragedy. But Rocky had not looked impressive against Ted Lowry in two attempts. Red Applegate and Art Henri had also given him a rough time earlier in 1951, despite their losing records with previous knockout losses. (Henri continued losing much more than winning until his penultimate contest, a stunning 12 round upset decision win over Yvon Durelle in Berlin.) Although Marciano's record was sprinkled with the names of contenders and trialhorses alike, all of Joe's comback victims had impressive winning records (except for 17-8-7 Andy Walker, who Joe sent spinning into a career ending 12 fight losing streak). Furthermore, Walcott had just dethroned Charles for the title, and Louis (who actually had a nominal youth advantage over the new champion) had put Jersey Joe down for the count the last time they shared a ring together. Marciano was facing an opponent who wanted another crack at a previously vanquished challenger. Entering their fight, odds in favor of Louis over Marciano seemed reasonable to many. Unfortunately for a surprised Bomber, Rocky's hook suddenly came of age in this one.

I rate Tyson/Holmes over Johnson/Jeffries, because of Larry's subsequentially successful second comeback. Holmes should not have stepped into the ring with a peak Tyson after the layoff he had, let alone try to box Mike as if he was still 29 years old and weighing 209 pounds. But nobody ever again put Larry on the floor, through 15 more years of competition and 24 additional sanctioned contests. In this one, Holmes nearly made it through four complete rounds, far better than Carl Williams, Trevor Berbick, Mike Spinks, Alonzo Ratliff, Alex Stewart, Henry Tillman, Tony Tubbs, Bruce Seldon, Marvis Frazier and Frank Bruno were able to manage. (In Tyson/Bruno I, Frank was penalized in the opening round for holding, yet managed to get floored in those three minutes anyway. In their rematch of course, Bruno couldn't get beyond round three. And unlike Bruno, Holmes did not get shut out over the first three rounds by the fast starting Tyson during their brief conflict.)

Johnson/Jeffries may have had the most significant cultural impact of these selections, but the fact is that Jeff was in his mid 30s, was coming off a five year layoff, had needed to shed over 100 pounds of sloth, yet still managed to last nearly through the championship rounds (which today's "modern" steroid inflated pansies are too gay to contemplate ever attempting, being too busy getting various fluids injected up into their arses), and may actually have succeeded in outlasting Johnson over the scheduled 45 round distance had he taken on a few warm-up bouts first (as the inferior Jess Willard eventually did outlast Lil' Artha). Jack Johnson clowned his way through this one for many of the same reasons Ali clowned against Evangelista-because he simply did not have the firepower to take Jeff out.

While I agree that Johnson would decision Jeff over 15 rounds in a peak for peak matchup, much of JJ's reputation for punching power stems from what he did to his little buddy Stan Ketchel after getting flattened himself, what he did to other noted but much smaller opponents, and the fact that he finally did manage to land Jeff where nobody had before. But I am not convinced that Johnson had as much firepower as Corbett and Tunney, though his physical strength may have been superior to theirs. 156 pound Sammy Langford, 175 pound Tommy Burns, and 159 pound Stan Ketchel lasted an awful lot longer than one might expect could be feasible against somebody with Johnson's reputation for punching power.

Marciano Frazier

03-27-2008, 10:53 PM

Bob Fitzimmons over James J Corbett
As Corbett was still champion and in or at least close to his prime, this is obviously a big win for Fitzsimmons- his biggest at heavyweight, in fact. Corbett had been inactive in terms of actual fights in recent years, but hadn't he been fighting exhibitions in the meantime?

Jack Johnson over James J Jeffries
Given an age of 35 and a five year absence from the ring, Jeffries' credibility in this fight has to be seriously questioned. I don't consider this a really big win for Johnson's legacy.

Gene Tunney over Dempsey II
This one is definitely valuable for me, since Dempsey was now two fights out of his hiatus and had beaten Sharkey. Best of the three mentioned so far.

Joe Louis over Max Baer
This was Baer's first fight after losing the title- he wasn't exactly "over-the-hill." And Louis wiped him out.

Rocky Marciano over Joe Louis
Since Louis had won eight straight in the last 11 months, was in shape and had been beating contenders, then this is a very legitimate major victory for Marciano. If some previously-unknown fighter had come out of the woodwork and done exactly what Louis did in in his last eight fights before facing Marciano, no one would question that beating him constituted a serious big win.

Mike Tyson over Larry Holmes
This is a complicated one. When they fought, Holmes was 37, coming off a two-year layoff and had lost his last two fights before that. However, his subsequent success in the next few years obviously indicates he had something left in the tank. I think the old Holmes of the early '90s was considerably better than the straight-out-of-retirement one Tyson went up against. This is an aesthetically-impressive performance and a nice name, but not a really big win in my eyes.

Marciano Frazier

03-27-2008, 11:05 PM

To put them in order in terms of what I would consider the "best" wins (factoring in the quality of the opponent at the time and the manner of the victory):
1. Louis-Baer
2. Tunney-Dempsey II
3-4. Fitzsimmons-Corbett/Marciano-Louis tie
5. Tyson-Holmes
6. Johnson-Jeffries

SuzieQ49

03-27-2008, 11:42 PM

never seen it, don't know much about it, but I will just say that Marciano is made to beat down old fighters. Again, i'm mot suggesting he should be penalised for this, just that it might be easier for him to take out veterans than most.

Don't agree with that. He broke down young 22-23 year old Young hotshot contenders like layne vingo and lastarza too. He was made to destroy big guys, not old guys. Goldman trained him to be able to break down those bigger taller guys mentally and physically. It was the small speedy slicksters that gave him trouble. That is why a fighter like bob baker or nino valdez would have been decimated by marciano easier than many people believe.

SteveO

03-27-2008, 11:57 PM

How about Tua over Ruiz and Moorer?

McGrain

03-28-2008, 02:07 PM

Since Louis had won eight straight in the last 11 months, was in shape and had been beating contenders, then this is a very legitimate major victory for Marciano. If some previously-unknown fighter had come out of the woodwork and done exactly what Louis did in in his last eight fights before facing Marciano, no one would question that beating him constituted a serious big win.

A fine point.

McGrain

03-28-2008, 02:10 PM

Don't agree with that.

What possible reason could you have for disagreeing? A fighter that sets a really fast pace, is pretty dirty (discard this if you disagree) and is close to impossoble to discourage is exactly the type of warrior that an old fighter isn't going to enjoy fighting.

Or am I missing something?

mr. magoo

03-28-2008, 02:18 PM

Bob Fitzimmons over James J Corbett

A very good win

Jack Johnson over James J Jeffries

Decent win, ( Jeffries was off for too long )

Gene Tunney over Dempsey II

Very good win, but I think Jack was past it.

Joe Louis over Max Baer

Excellent win. Max was still very dangerous and Louis destroyed him.

Rocky Marciano over Joe Louis

So so. Louis was pretty shot, but a good name win nonetheless.

Mike Tyson over Larry Holmes

Not bad, but Tyson's win over Spinks was better.

mr. magoo

03-28-2008, 02:22 PM

I think a great win to ad to this bunch is, Ali over Patterson.