Where does Tony Zale rank among the all-time middleweights ?

[Sonny's jab]

On your list ?
Is he top 10 ? Top 20 ?

[punchy]

He would have to in the top ten

[TBooze]

#12 IMO:

15 Joey Giardello
14 Kid McCoy
13 Nino Benvenuti
12 Tony Zale
11 Marcel Cerdan
10 Roy Jones
9 Jack Dempsey

[dwilson]

For me a possible top ten but definetly a top 20.

I am currently trying to compile my own all time top 30's at each weight class, with some fighters of the current era being placed in the old style classes.

[teeto]

For me a possible top ten but definetly a top 20.

I am currently trying to compile my own all time top 30's at each weight class, with some fighters of the current era being placed in the old style classes.
I agree, he could be in a top ten for some , towards the lower end though , but i would definitly have him top 20. I've been away from here for a while , but i think my last top 10 MW ATG list was something like -

1. Greb
2. Robinson
3. Hagler
4. Monzon
5. Hopkins
6. Ketchel
7. Fulmer
8. Cerdan
9. Toney
10. Papke

Zale would probably follow in the next few with Toney, Benvenuti and Lamotta , with Graziano and Turpin after them.

I feel strongly about my top 6, the top 4 are so close imo that they could be changed, the same goes for 5 and 6, after them there are a bunch of ATGs that have a shout, but i like my top 10 at the mo. I believe my top 6 to be the ELITE achievers at 160 though, whereas the guys that follow are ATGs, its not all about achievement at the weight though, how good a fighter is (when exceptional) gets credit aswell, like Toney.

I know Cerdan gets dissed on here for not fighting the best , but he looked amazing and its my list!!

[teeto]

For me a possible top ten but definetly a top 20.

I am currently trying to compile my own all time top 30's at each weight class, with some fighters of the current era being placed in the old style classes.
Oh and - good luck with that top 30, must be annoying tryin' to get them in an order that your'e happy with! You doing that in all 17 divisions? I'd just do the classics first and give the newer ones a go afterwards

[brooklyn1550]

Top 15

[Dempsey1238]

Had there not been a WWII, perhaps Zale would have rank higher on the list perhaps. He was action pack and evey one rembers his battles with Rocky, when pass his best.

Cerdan relly did beat Zale pretty badly.

[Russell]

Top 15

Co-Signed.

[Sonny's jab]

I really do have to give Marcel Cerdan A LOT of credit for beating Zale, and the manner in which he did so.

Although Zale was old he had actually looked electrifying against Graziano (3rd fight) in his previous fight and didn't sustain any significant damage in that one, so I figure he was a formidable fighter against Cerdan.

I think Cerdan's one of the greats. Haven't seen his fight with LaMotta, does it exist on film ?

[Quick Cash]

I have him 17th at the moment, but mine is far from a solid list. I only feel very strongly for the top ten or so, the others get shifted around every so often in the infrequent event that I get to learn something new about the middleweights.

[Russell]

I think Cerdan's one of the greats. Haven't seen his fight with LaMotta, does it exist on film ?

I want to say yes, but don't quote me on it.

[Quick Cash]

I really do have to give Marcel Cerdan A LOT of credit for beating Zale, and the manner in which he did so.

Although Zale was old he had actually looked electrifying against Graziano (3rd fight) in his previous fight and didn't sustain any significant damage in that one, so I figure he was a formidable fighter against Cerdan.

I think Cerdan's one of the greats. Haven't seen his fight with LaMotta, does it exist on film ?

Tony's fight with Cerdan: actually my first exposure to both. I remember at the time thinking that Cerdan was very much a fighter who resembled Rocky Marciano. He was a rabid machine that night. And even though Zale was an aging champion, Cerdan left no doubt in my mind who the better man was.

Regarding the other fight, I haven't seen the bout in full, but I know highlights of the it were filmed. In fact, last I checked, it was posted on youtube. That was another long drawn-out fight. Cerdan dislocated his shoulder. He put on a valiant effort, but in the end he was reduced to flailing sporadic and ineffective rights against the superb combination punching of Jake LaMotta.

[Russell]

I find it funny how no one, and I mean NO one, would fault Cerdan for quitting that night.

But Vitali...

[TBooze]

I find it funny how no one, and I mean NO one, would fault Cerdan for quitting that night.

But Vitali...

One of the few perks of dying too soon I guess....

[Russell]

Hah, yeah, seems that way.

Funny how they injured the same bodypart and everything

[Sonny's jab]

I find it funny how no one, and I mean NO one, would fault Cerdan for quitting that night.

But Vitali...

Cerdan was in the ring with Jake "Raging Bull" LaMotta, a vicious fighter who matched him for size and strength.

Vitali was in the ring with Chris Byrd, more of a sparrow than an eagle.

[Russell]

Vitali was a fighter who was plagued with injuries for a good portion of his life. Cerdan was not.

Not to mention on top of a boxing career he fought in a potentially even more damaging sport in kickboxing.

And that "sparrow" clearly hurt both Ike and Tua with bodyshots.

[Sonny's jab]

Vitali was a fighter who was plagued with injuries for a good portion of his life. Cerdan was not.

Not to mention on top of a boxing career he fought in a potentially even more damaging sport in kickboxing.

And that "sparrow" clearly hurt both Ike and Tua with bodyshots.

Well, I'm just saying why people might be criticizing Vitali. I dont really care whether he quit or not.

As far as I could tell Byrd wasn't hurting him, and Vitali was ahead on points, AND Byrd IS much smaller and weaker than Vitali. These are the facts that might contribute to some people's negative assessment of Vitali's surrender.
It's different circumstances to Cerdan, so I dont think the Vitali critics would be inconsistent to forgive Cerdan. Those differences that I've mentioned. Make up your own mind.

Liston caught a ton of flak for quitting with a shoulder injury too. So it's not just Vitali. Then again, Liston was slightly behind on points against a big, fast, very good heavyweight, and many people will tell you he couldn't have won that night.
Liston catches it for quitting, so why shouldn't Vitali ?

(As a sidenote, I saw Danny Williams win a fight with his shoulder completely dislocated, the arm hanging down 6 inches further than normal, completely useless. That got my respect, no question.)

[Russell]

Danny Williams seems to ENJOY being hurt and beaten on, if the Tyson/Vitali fights were any indication.

[Sonny's jab]

Danny Williams seems to ENJOY being hurt and beaten on, if the Tyson/Vitali fights were any indication.

He has tons of heart. A mediocre fighter who wasted most of what talent he had, a fat plodder (very sad seeing him lose to Audley Harrison). But you cant question his heart and willingness to absorb punishment. Tons of heart.

[dpw417]

I really do have to give Marcel Cerdan A LOT of credit for beating Zale, and the manner in which he did so.

Although Zale was old he had actually looked electrifying against Graziano (3rd fight) in his previous fight and didn't sustain any significant damage in that one, so I figure he was a formidable fighter against Cerdan.

I think Cerdan's one of the greats. Haven't seen his fight with LaMotta, does it exist on film ?
I give Cerdan credit for that victory over Zale as well...that was a fantastic performance. All i know of the Cerdan/LaMotta footage is about a 4 minute clip.

[Dempsey1238]

I really do have to give Marcel Cerdan A LOT of credit for beating Zale, and the manner in which he did so.

Although Zale was old he had actually looked electrifying against Graziano (3rd fight) in his previous fight and didn't sustain any significant damage in that one, so I figure he was a formidable fighter against Cerdan.

I think Cerdan's one of the greats. Haven't seen his fight with LaMotta, does it exist on film ?

I have highlights of that bout. Runs about 6 or so mins.

[Dempsey1238]

I really do have to give Marcel Cerdan A LOT of credit for beating Zale, and the manner in which he did so.

Although Zale was old he had actually looked electrifying against Graziano (3rd fight) in his previous fight and didn't sustain any significant damage in that one, so I figure he was a formidable fighter against Cerdan.

I think Cerdan's one of the greats. Haven't seen his fight with LaMotta, does it exist on film ?

I have highlights of that bout. Runs about 6 or so mins. The Cerdan LaMotta fight.

[dmt]

top 15