Top 3 Fighters... In Last 30 Yrs ?

[George W Hedge]

After long consideration & having to leave out great boxers who some of you will no doubt mention, here is my final 3.............

(In no particular order)

sugar ray leonard
roberto duran
julio cesar chavez


Ps. Whitaker almost edged out jc based on getting the better of the head to head & winning the 4 titles in 4 divisions but my view is.... pernell was closer to his prime when they met....
chavez challenged the best (whitaker) when going for the 4th title compared to pernell beating vasquez.....
Lets not forget jc`s outstanding win/loss record, the most outstanding in the modern game.

:good

[Minotauro]

Yeh I would agree with the three you picked.

[TBooze]

sugar ray leonard
roberto duran
julio cesar chavez


Chavez

de la Hoya

Whitaker

Did not include Leonard or Duran as both began their career more than 30 years ago.

[sweet_scientist]

After long consideration & having to leave out great boxers who some of you will no doubt mention, here is my final 3.............

(In no particular order)

sugar ray leonard
roberto duran
julio cesar chavez


Ps. Whitaker almost edged out jc based on getting the better of the head to head & winning the 4 titles in 4 divisions but my view is.... pernell was closer to his prime when they met....
chavez challenged the best (whitaker) when going for the 4th title compared to pernell beating vasquez.....
Lets not forget jc`s outstanding win/loss record, the most outstanding in the modern game.

:good

And let's not forget Whitaker challenged a guy naturally 19 pounds heavier than him in his 4th weight class, whereas Chavez faced a guy naturally 5 pounds (if that) heavier than him.

My list:

1. Roberto Duran
2. Sugar Ray Leonard
3. Marvin Hagler

[George W Hedge]

Dont get me wrong, Im a huge whitaker fan but based on talent, whitaker was a much tougher fight at 147 than vasquez was at 154 for any fighter.

Whitaker cleaned up the 135 & 147 divisions, he only really beat pineda at 140 where as chavez cleaned up the 130 & 140 divisions but at least unified the 135 weight class... as I say, there is nothing between them & I love both guys but I had to choose 1 & when its very close you usually have to find the smallest of details to separate them, thats what I did.

:good

[Muchmoore]

1. Pernell Whitaker
2. Roberto Duran
3. Marvin Hagler

Chavez and SRL are after Hagler.

[Robbi]

The question is the best three fighters since 1977. So I'm going to pick fighters who's careers began around 1977 onwards, or at least won their first world title 30 years ago.

1. Sugar Ray Leonard
2. Pernell Whitaker
3. Marvin Hagler

[sweet_scientist]

Dont get me wrong, Im a huge whitaker fan but based on talent, whitaker was a much tougher fight at 147 than vasquez was at 154 for any fighter.

I agree, I'm just saying the weightclass didn't have much to do with how tough of a fight it was for Chavez at 147. If you're just trying to say that Chavez shouldn't be downgraded compared to Pernell becuase Pernell won in 4 weight classes and Chavez in three, then that's fair enough.

Whitaker cleaned up the 135 & 147 divisions, he only really beat pineda at 140 where as chavez cleaned up the 130 & 140 divisions but at least unified the 135 weight class... as I say, there is nothing between them & I love both guys but I had to choose 1 & when its very close you usually have to find the smallest of details to separate them, thats what I did.

:good

Chavez did clean up 130 and 140, but his "unification" at lightweight was a sham, as Ramirez held the belt (that Chavez took) that everyone knew rightfully belonged to Whitaker.

[brooklyn1550]

Leonard
Hagler
Whitaker

[George W Hedge]

Personally..... I wouldnt say marvin hagler was a better p4p fighter than julio cesar chavez..... 2 of the toughest guys of all time with skills to match but for me chavez was a bit better technically.

Im not slating hagler for staying at mwt but jc dominated at 130, 135 & 140.... he lost a lot of speed & reflexes after moving to 140 but adapted by becoming a harder puncher, very methodical.

In his prime jcc was a near perfect fighting machine.... maybe even a prime hagler didnt have the aura of invincability that jc had in the late 80s to early 90s.... an absolute superstar & he proved & earned every bit of it.

:good

[sweet_scientist]

I don't know about Chavez looking invincible. He looked pretty beatable against Lockridge, Laporte and in the second Mayweather fight, not to mention the Taylor fight which he just managed to salvage.

He had a lot of dominant performances in between, but so did Hagler. And when you consider some of the fighters Hagler beat, Duran, Hearns, Leonard (arguably), Chavez's best wins pale somewhat in comparison.

[Duodenum]

Since the title of this thread did not specify fighters who began their careers within the last 30 years, these are my picks.

1) Duran of Montreal and DeJesus III.
2) Hagler
3) Holmes

I'm sorry, but I simply can't bring myself to rate a non 15 round fighter.
I just can't.

[Pat_Lowe]

Since the title of this thread did not specify fighters who began their careers within the last 30 years, these are my picks.

1) Duran of Montreal and DeJesus III.
2) Hagler
3) Holmes

I'm sorry, but I simply can't bring myself to rate a non 15 round fighter.
I just can't.

You don't give Chavez and Whitaker the benefit of the doubt? These 2 both had exceptional stamina (especially Chavez). Whitaker maintained his high punch output through all the rounds and Chavez was known to get stronger as a fight progressed. I'd definently say that these 2 could do 15 rounds without too much hassle. In fact it'd be more beneficial to them, Chavez's win over Taylor wouldn't be tainted and Whitakers decision losses to Ramirez and De La Hoya would arguably never happen as he would have more rounds to cement the win.

[Duodenum]

You don't give Chavez and Whitaker the benefit of the doubt? These 2 both had exceptional stamina (especially Chavez). Whitaker maintained his high punch output through all the rounds and Chavez was known to get stronger as a fight progressed. I'd definently say that these 2 could do 15 rounds without too much hassle. In fact it'd be more beneficial to them, Chavez's win over Taylor wouldn't be tainted and Whitakers decision losses to Ramirez and De La Hoya would arguably never happen as he would have more rounds to cement the win.If Chavez, Whitaker, and B-Hop had the opportunity to establish themselves as 15 round fighters (not their fault), then I would have to give them all very serious consideration.

Frankly, I can't bring myself to vindicate in any way what the powers that run boxing have done in ruining it this way. Another factor has to do with my only knowing of them primarily by reputation. I've described elsewhere on this forum how the abolition of the 15 round distance in professional boxing, and the imposition of headgear in amateur competition turned me off completely to both sports. (The wearing of mandatory headgear aggravates and accelerates the progression of brain damage by encouraging the tendency to accept a blow that would otherwise be actively defended against. It's nothing more than "feel good" regulation meddling and tradition tampering. As is often the case, the cure is worse than the disease. Want to magnify the speed with which boxers succumb to pugilistica dementia? Mandate 24 ounce gloves and more thickly padded headgear which obscures peripheral vision. Neurology would become the most popular specialty in medicine overnight!)

[Bad_Intentions]

chavez

whitaker

hagler

[sweet_scientist]

What? No it wasn't. He's saying he stopped watching boxing because they changed it from 15 rounds to 12 rounds and no fighter after that era is any good basically.

And he mentioned Hopkins without mentioning his daddy :good

[Robbi]

If Chavez, Whitaker, and B-Hop had the opportunity to establish themselves as 15 round fighters (not their fault), then I would have to give them all very serious consideration.

Frankly, I can't bring myself to vindicate in any way what the powers that run boxing have done in ruining it this way. Another factor has to do with my only knowing of them primarily by reputation. I've described elsewhere on this forum how the abolition of the 15 round distance in professional boxing, and the imposition of headgear in amateur competition turned me off completely to both sports. (The wearing of mandatory headgear aggravates and accelerates the progression of brain damage by encouraging the tendency to accept a blow that would otherwise be actively defended against. It's nothing more than "feel good" regulation meddling and tradition tampering. As is often the case, the cure is worse than the disease. Want to magnify the speed with which boxers succumb to pugilistica dementia? Mandate 24 ounce gloves and more thickly padded headgear which obscures peripheral vision. Neurology would become the most popular specialty in medicine overnight!)

Looking at your points, I would be a very disappointed boxing fan if 15 rounds were suddenly changed to 12 rounds today. But your being overly critical and unfair when ranking the fighters who have stricly fought 12 rounders though, as many fighters are judged against each other through different eras. Who was the best "pound for pound" boxer of all time being the best example.

I watched Jack Johnson recently against Burns and Ketchel. And the lack of real punching action is nothing short of ridiculous. More wrestling inside than clean effective boxing. And the rules were a shambles. During the Johnson v Ketchel fight, a monster right hand from Ketchel floored Johnson, who immediatley rose from the canvas to floor Ketchel in return. No count, no nuetral corner rule. Quite simply more of a street fight than a boxing match.

[Duodenum]

Looking at your points, I would be a very disappointed boxing fan if 15 rounds were suddenly changed to 12 rounds today. But your being overly critical and unfair when ranking the fighters who have stricly fought 12 rounders though, as many fighters are judged against each other through different eras. Who was the best "pound for pound" boxer of all time being the best example.

I watched Jack Johnson recently against Burns and Ketchel. And the lack of real punching action is nothing short of ridiculous. More wrestling inside than clean effective boxing. And the rules were a shambles. During the Johnson v Ketchel fight, a monster right hand from Ketchel floored Johnson, who immediatley rose from the canvas to floor Ketchel in return. No count, no nuetral corner rule. Quite simply more of a street fight than a boxing match.The disastrous impact that this change had was instant. Bobby Chacon and Bazooka Limon boxed in the final 15 round match the WBC ever sanctioned, and Chacon's knockdown in the closing seconds of the electrifying 15th round decided the outcome. This action made it Ring Magazine's Fight of the Year, over Pryor/Arguello I.

Later, I watched one of the WBC's first truncated 12 round championship fights, for Arguello's vacated LW Title. Beyond any doubt, the only reason Rosario won was because that match was scheduled for the shortened distance. (The idea of Arguello boxing in a 12 round world championship match is unthinkable.)

The final stanza of the last 15 round championship match ever contested was also pivotal, as Jorge Paez dropped Calvin Grove to overtake him in the scoring, and win the IBF featherweight title 19 years ago.

If Hagler/Duran had been scheduled for 12 rounds, Duran would have dethoned Marv. Would SRL have outscored Hagler if that one had been scheduled for 15 rounds? (For that matter, would SRL have won his rematch with Hearns?) I can't swallow the idea of Salvador Sanchez, Danny Lopez, Carlos Palomino, or Victor Galindez fighting 12 round championship matches.

You could turn the IBHOF roster upside down if matches were all scheduled for 12 rounds. Would the FOTC still be the FOTC without the 15th round?

Would growth enhancing substances that inflate muscles and increase bulk while maintaining speed in ways with no precident in boxing still be a viable strategy for winning boxing championships, if title bouts were still scheduled for 15 rounds? (Wait until they cut the championship limit to ten rounds, with other main events scheduled for no more than eight. Within two years, boxers will look like Mr. Olympia contestants.)

Bottom line is that this is the only forum on ESB I have any involvement or interest in for reasons like this.

There are plenty of enthusiasts of boxing as it is today, and anybody who enjoys it has no reason to care about my lack of interest in it. (And who knows, maybe one day, I'll grow up, pull my head out of my butt, and accept the present as is. For the time being though, I'll just continue to reminisce about days gone by before my time.)

[Stonehands89]

No apologies necessary, Duo. I and many others agree wholeheartedly.

[heerko koois]

1- Tyson [ 1985 -1989 version ]
2- Chavez [ 1985- 1992 ]
3- Donald Curry [ 1983-1986 ]

[avsouza06]

Leonard
Hagler
Chavez

[ajohnfp]

Leonard
Duran
Whitaker

HM: Chavez, Spinks, Hagler, Jones

[Robbi]

The disastrous impact that this change had was instant. Bobby Chacon and Bazooka Limon boxed in the final 15 round match the WBC ever sanctioned, and Chacon's knockdown in the closing seconds of the electrifying 15th round decided the outcome. This action made it Ring Magazine's Fight of the Year, over Pryor/Arguello I.

Later, I watched one of the WBC's first truncated 12 round championship fights, for Arguello's vacated LW Title. Beyond any doubt, the only reason Rosario won was because that match was scheduled for the shortened distance. (The idea of Arguello boxing in a 12 round world championship match is unthinkable.)

The final stanza of the last 15 round championship match ever contested was also pivotal, as Jorge Paez dropped Calvin Grove to overtake him in the scoring, and win the IBF featherweight title 19 years ago.

If Hagler/Duran had been scheduled for 12 rounds, Duran would have dethoned Marv. Would SRL have outscored Hagler if that one had been scheduled for 15 rounds? (For that matter, would SRL have won his rematch with Hearns?) I can't swallow the idea of Salvador Sanchez, Danny Lopez, Carlos Palomino, or Victor Galindez fighting 12 round championship matches.

You could turn the IBHOF roster upside down if matches were all scheduled for 12 rounds. Would the FOTC still be the FOTC without the 15th round?

Would growth enhancing substances that inflate muscles and increase bulk while maintaining speed in ways with no precident in boxing still be a viable strategy for winning boxing championships, if title bouts were still scheduled for 15 rounds? (Wait until they cut the championship limit to ten rounds, with other main events scheduled for no more than eight. Within two years, boxers will look like Mr. Olympia contestants.)

Bottom line is that this is the only forum on ESB I have any involvement or interest in for reasons like this.

There are plenty of enthusiasts of boxing as it is today, and anybody who enjoys it has no reason to care about my lack of interest in it. (And who knows, maybe one day, I'll grow up, pull my head out of my butt, and accept the present as is. For the time being though, I'll just continue to reminisce about days gone by before my time.)

On another thread, "strangest boxing opinions" I shared my views. The following you certainly won't find strange in the slightest. With the weight of boxers being checked more intensely these days, also safer and more adequate equipment at ringside, 15 round championship fights should be brought back for a 12 month trial period.

The fatal outcome between Mancini and Kim was the beginging of the end for 15 round championship fights. But it wasn't only down to Kim struggling to make the weight for the fight, which no doubt was partly to blame for his lapse into a coma, but the WBA's crazy rating system which had him as the mandatory challenger for the title. Where did he come from?. He should never have been in the ring in the first place.

Its been well researched recently that large amounts of weight being taken off over a short period of time is extremely dangerous. Thats why boxers are now weight checked during camp leading up to fights by commissions and sanctioning bodies, so the weight is taken off in gradual stages. And looking back to gruellingly hard fought 15 round championship fights, combined with no weight checks, its spells fatality. DEHYDRATION.

[enquirer]

I think chavez did have one fight which either went or was schedhuled for 15?
Anyway;
ray leonard
hearns.
hagler.

[Robbi]

The final stanza of the last 15 round championship match ever contested was also pivotal, as Jorge Paez dropped Calvin Grove to overtake him in the scoring, and win the IBF featherweight title 19 years ago.

The last 15 round championship fight contested was when Samruth Sitnarupon beat Hwang In-Kyo over the distance for the IBF mini-flyweight title. Not long after Paez fought Grove.

[Duodenum]

The last 15 round championship fight contested was when Samruth Sitnarupon beat Hwang In-Kyo over the distance for the IBF mini-flyweight title. Not long after Paez fought Grove.If so, then I stand corrected. (My interest in boxing had already waned by that time.)

Concerning your fine post about dehydration, I agree completely that boxers should simply compete at whatever weight they happen to be at when in top condition. Henry Armstrong was perfectly comfortable defending the WW Title while weighing under the LW limit himself. SRL always started his training camps under the limit of the weight he would be competing at, and SRR dominated Joey Maxim while under the MW limit, and took two out of three from LaMotta while under the WW limit. The example set by their successes should instruct modern boxers not to weaken themselves in order to make weight. (Basilio only weighed 153 when he dethroned Robby.)

[rekcutnevets]

Duran, Leonard, Whitaker