Miguel Cotto vs. Meldrick Taylor [Archive]

Sweet Pea

03-27-2008, 05:28 PM

Cotto's more adaptable than Chavez. He's a more complete fighter.

Chavez would win at 140lbs, but not at 147lbs. Cotto's chin has improved since he moved up and he's gained more experience.At 140 he was not more adaptable or complete, nor was his chin 1/4 as good. In fact, his game as a pressure fighter(and that was his primary game, still is) was not as effective, he was not as strong, and his chin left him very vulnerable. Chavez would stop him within 6 in a fight at 140.

At 147, Cotto is bigger, stronger, and more durable than at 140, and he's showed different dimensions to his game, while Chavez was clearly not at his best, so picking Cotto there is no stretch.

Either way, the 140 pound Cotto was very vulnerable in terms of his durability, and had not yet shown the different dimensions that he showed in the Mosley fight. He'd get handled by both Chavez and Taylor at the weight.

brooklyn1550

03-27-2008, 05:37 PM

At 140, Meldrick Taylor beats Miguel Cotto by TKO in about 8 rounds. Too much handspeed and stamina for Cotto to deal with consistently for 3 minutes a round. At this weight, Cotto fought in spurts. He'd be getting hit quite a bit, and unlike Chavez, he wouldn't have the chin to take it. Cotto is too vulnerable at 140 for me to think highly of him in fantasy matchups.

At 147, Cotto stops Taylor. He's clearly a better fighter as a welterweight and can take a very good shot.

dpw417

03-27-2008, 05:39 PM

At 140, Taylor by late TKO or Wide Decision.
If Taylor chooses to box...then I can definitely see he winning a decision...That is a huge "IF" though, because Taylor was a Philly fighter who came to fight...I don't think that approach works with Cotto. Why? Cotto (IMO) hits much harder for the weight than Chavez (140), he does not have the chin of Chavez, but he is more powerful...I remember Meldrick's fights with Robin Blake, Cubanito Perez, Primo Ramos I& II, Howard Davis, John Meekins, and Buddy McGirt...Taylor did start to show a little more power in his title reign (and challenge) against McGirt and Meekins...but definitely not enough power to stop Cotto...at least in my opinion anyway.
Explain to me how Taylor gets that TKO(?):roll:

brooklyn1550

03-27-2008, 06:03 PM

Explain to me how Taylor gets that TKO(?):roll:

Taylor could get a TKO win because Cotto didn't have great stamina at 140 and his chin was very shaky (especially when he got hit with punches he didn't see coming). It would take a while, but with Meldrick's handspeed and the amount of punches he would land, he would eventually wear Cotto down and the accumulative effect would come into play.

TBooze

03-27-2008, 06:29 PM

Cotto certainly is a top level fighter, who may or may not become a brilliant fighter. Taylor was a top level fighter who ultimately failed to become brilliant.

So being brave I just think at 147 Cotto would be too strong and win by a late stoppage.

Cotto TKO12 (leading 7-4 going in)

At 140, Taylor would be in his prime, Cotto a little bit before, so I take Taylor to edge it with his speed, but he would have to take his lumps as well.

Taylor WM12 (7-5), a bit easier if it was a 15 rounder WU15 (9-6).

Russell

03-27-2008, 06:35 PM

TBooze

03-27-2008, 06:39 PM

I've actually heard more than once that early in his career Taylor averaged a hundred punches a round.

But he was no Zack Padilla, the true King of punches per round in the modern era.;)

Taylor slapped too much early on, but he did learn to sit down on his punches a bit more after a dozen or so fights; and with that handspeed he became so much better for it, as McGirt found out.

dpw417

03-27-2008, 06:45 PM

Taylor could get a TKO win because Cotto didn't have great stamina at 140 and his chin was very shaky (especially when he got hit with punches he didn't see coming). It would take a while, but with Meldrick's handspeed and the amount of punches he would land, he would eventually wear Cotto down and the accumulative effect would come into play.
I'll agree that Cotto wasn't the most durable at 140 lbs...and does the possiblity exist for him to be TKO'd? Yes, you have to say it does exist, but it is extremely unlikely outcome (IMO).
Corley wobbled him badly and Torres hurt and floored him...but Cotto rebounded and won (the Corley fight stunk a little honestly)...A high price would have to paid in the trenches against Cotto in order for Taylor to get the TKO win. Cotto demonstrated adequate speed, good combinations (and accurate), and brutal power against the 140 lbers. If Taylor stands with him (and he stood in with everyone) Cotto finds him, and often, with a hard body attack. Cotto would have been the best puncher at the weight Taylor ever faced. Given that, I feel Taylor does not get a TKO, or even a win. Chavez would hurt Taylor at times through out their brutal first fight, and Chavez while being very accurate and strong...did not have near the offensive power Cotto had at 140 lbs.

brooklyn1550

03-27-2008, 06:51 PM

I'll agree that Cotto wasn't the most durable at 140 lbs...and does the possiblity exist for him to be TKO'd? Yes, you have to say it does exist, but it is extremely unlikely outcome (IMO).
Corley wobbled him badly and Torres hurt and floored him...but Cotto rebounded and won (the Corley fight stunk a little honestly)...A high price would have to paid in the trenches against Cotto in order for Taylor to get the TKO win. Cotto demonstrated adequate speed, good combinations (and accurate), and brutal power against the 140 lbers. If Taylor stands with him (and he stood in with everyone) Cotto finds him, and often, with a hard body attack. Cotto would have been the best puncher at the weight Taylor ever faced. Given that, I feel Taylor does not get a TKO, or even a win. Chavez would hurt Taylor at times through out their brutal first fight, and Chavez while being very accurate and strong...did not have near the offensive power Cotto had at 140 lbs.

That's a fair assessment:good

dpw417

03-27-2008, 06:55 PM

That's a fair assessment:good
Fair enough.
btw I'm picking that man in your avatar on April 19th:good

Sweet Pea

03-27-2008, 08:05 PM

If Taylor chooses to box...then I can definitely see he winning a decision...That is a huge "IF" though, because Taylor was a Philly fighter who came to fight...I don't think that approach works with Cotto. Why? Cotto (IMO) hits much harder for the weight than Chavez (140), he does not have the chin of Chavez, but he is more powerful...I remember Meldrick's fights with Robin Blake, Cubanito Perez, Primo Ramos I& II, Howard Davis, John Meekins, and Buddy McGirt...Taylor did start to show a little more power in his title reign (and challenge) against McGirt and Meekins...but definitely not enough power to stop Cotto...at least in my opinion anyway.
Explain to me how Taylor gets that TKO(?):roll:The bolded is where our opinions GREATLY differ.

Taylor gets a TKO due to constant workrate and landed shots. His power wasn't overwhelming with single shots, but his workrate was, and seeing as how he took Chavez's shots, I'd see it as no problem taking Cotto's shots.

Your little eye-rolling emoticon is more or less exactly how I feel about your post, being as you don't seem to realize how vulnerable Cotto was in terms of his chin and durability. It seemed every time he got hit clean he was rocked. Taylor would hit him often, while taking shots in return, but as I said, if he took Chavez's(who dewfinitely hit at least as hard as Cotto at 140, I don't know where the hell you get off saying otherwise) he could take Cotto's. Cotto, on the other hand, could most certainly not take the consistent beating Chavez took with the same stride as Chavez did.

I think you're confusing the 140 Cotto with the 147 version, in which case I'd agree with you.

Sweet Pea

03-27-2008, 08:08 PM

Fair enough.
btw I'm picking that man in your avatar on April 19th:good I can see our opinions differ greatly on more than just one matchup.

dpw417

03-27-2008, 08:24 PM

The bolded is where our opinions GREATLY differ.

Taylor gets a TKO due to constant workrate and landed shots. His power wasn't overwhelming with single shots, but his workrate was, and seeing as how he took Chavez's shots, I'd see it as no problem taking Cotto's shots.

Your little eye-rolling emoticon is more or less exactly how I feel about your post, being as you don't seem to realize how vulnerable Cotto was in terms of his chin and durability. It seemed every time he got hit clean he was rocked. Taylor would hit him often, while taking shots in return, but as I said, if he took Chavez's(who dewfinitely hit at least as hard as Cotto at 140, I don't know where the hell you get off saying otherwise) he could take Cotto's. Cotto, on the other hand, could most certainly not take the consistent beating Chavez took with the same stride as Chavez did.

I think you're confusing the 140 Cotto with the 147 version, in which case I'd agree with you.
I'll agree that Chavez definitely takes those shots from Taylor better than Cotto would at 140...But we'll just have to disagree on Cotto's power compared to Chavez's...IMO there is a disparity there...and the main thing is he didn't take Chavez's shots! (but that stoppage sucked though) I don't see from Taylor's track record that he stops Cotto at all.
Did that little emoticon make you mad? boo hoo.
For the record, Meldrick was one of my favorites back in the day. He fought with alot of heart.

dpw417

03-27-2008, 08:25 PM

I can see our opinions differ greatly on more than just one matchup.
That is what makes it fun. I looking forward to this fight no matter who wins. We need to start a classic opinion thread on it.

Robbi

03-27-2008, 08:29 PM

At 140 he was not more adaptable or complete, nor was his chin 1/4 as good. In fact, his game as a pressure fighter(and that was his primary game, still is) was not as effective, he was not as strong, and his chin left him very vulnerable. Chavez would stop him within 6 in a fight at 140.

Not strictly at 140lbs. But overall as a package Cotto's a more adaptable fighter than Chavez. Yes, Chavez has the better chin and punches even better to the body. But Cotto can give his opponent different looks, something Chavez seldom done. And before you care to mention, Chavez could box a little, but just a little. For instance, in Cotto's last fight he played the matador during the late rounds. He was boxing on the backfoot behind the jab and looking to more or less avoid Mosley's blows rather than push the action himself. Chavez couldn't muster up such an approach during a fight. If you actually read my post correctly when I said Cotto was more complete, I wasn't specific at a certain weight. Infact I said Chavez would win at 140lbs as Cotto's punch resistance wasn't good.

Just because Chavez has achieved more and is greater how things stand, doesn't mean he's more adaptable than Cotto. I think Cotto is more adaptable and multi dimensional than Trinidad as well.

At 147, Cotto is bigger, stronger, and more durable than at 140, and he's showed different dimensions to his game, while Chavez was clearly not at his best, so picking Cotto there is no stretch.

Yeah, good call.

Either way, the 140 pound Cotto was very vulnerable in terms of his durability, and had not yet shown the different dimensions that he showed in the Mosley fight. He'd get handled by both Chavez and Taylor at the weight.

Yeah, Cotto never had the experience and chin at 140lbs that he has now.

Vantage_West

03-27-2008, 08:30 PM

i always felt taylor was very adebt at beating bigger men. his first 2 rounds against terry norris was interesting. i actually could of scored it to meldrick easily if i didnt count the power shots in the 2nd round.

and as small in stature as he was he was a strong bulky guy with huge shoulder muscles if i remember add this with a natural talent of speed of hand and foot i think he could of beaten most 140 pound champions on a good night.

cotto is a not so talented fighter what he has is a lefty in a orthy position a decent jab (but at 140 pounds he rarely used it) he has a great inside game and a great left hook. he has the basics down very strongly and uses his main advantage...wieght.

now as you may know he wieght drains alot and i mean alot almost gaining 14 pounds if not more. he has clocked up to be a 160 pounder on fight night which is remarkable.

meldrick i think can outbox him outwork him and out blitz him. taylor has a good chin or at least b+ and can stay on the inside for long enough i suppose.

i would like to add that even though meldrick is short. he can box very well he only traded when he thouhgt he could beat you at it. also cotto's defence is poor he leaves his hands just apart from his face so striaght punches go down the pipe. and hooks (if you dare get close enough) can get round

mel i think wins by ud

Pat_Lowe

03-27-2008, 08:53 PM

Not strictly at 140lbs. But overall as a package Cotto's a more adaptable fighter than Chavez. Yes, Chavez has the better chin and punches even better to the body. But Cotto can give his opponent different looks, something Chavez seldom done. And before you care to mention, Chavez could box a little, but just a little. For instance, in Cotto's last fight he played the matador during the late rounds. He was boxing on the backfoot behind the jab and looking to more or less avoid Mosley's blows rather than push the action himself. Chavez couldn't muster up such an approach during a fight. If you actually read my post correctly when I said Cotto was more complete, I wasn't specific at a certain weight. Infact I said Chavez would win at 140lbs as Cotto's punch resistance wasn't good.

Just because Chavez has achieved more and is greater how things stand, doesn't mean he's more adaptable than Cotto. I think Cotto is more adaptable and multi dimensional than Trinidad as well.

Yeah, good call.

Yeah, Cotto never had the experience and chin at 140lbs that he has now.

You realise that those rounds where Cotto 'Played the matador' he was regarded as losing those rounds. Also watch Chavez vs Lockridge for an example of him playing the matador against a very good fighter in Lockridge. He had damaged his hand so was forced to box and use lateral movement. Chavez was much more multi-dimensional then some will have you believe.

Robbi

03-27-2008, 09:03 PM

You realise that those rounds where Cotto 'Played the matador' he was regarded as losing those rounds. Also watch Chavez vs Lockridge for an example of him playing the matador against a very good fighter in Lockridge. He had damaged his hand so was forced to box and use lateral movement. Chavez was much more multi-dimensional then some will have you believe.

Chavez wasn't great on the backfoot. He could go side to side and get behind the jab, but not for particularly long spells.

Cotto was losing those rounds, but Chavez couldn't show a fighter that kind of approach. Chavez's style was too tight and rigid for him to flow around the ring in a similar manner to Cotto.

Sweet Pea

03-27-2008, 09:05 PM

I'll agree that Chavez definitely takes those shots from Taylor better than Cotto would at 140...But we'll just have to disagree on Cotto's power compared to Chavez's...IMO there is a disparity there...and the main thing is he didn't take Chavez's shots! (but that stoppage sucked though) I don't see from Taylor's track record that he stops Cotto at all.
Did that little emoticon make you mad? boo hoo.
For the record, Meldrick was one of my favorites back in the day. He fought with alot of heart.

The emoticon didn't make me mad in itself, just the idea that a pre-prime, shaky-chinned Cotto stops Taylor when Chavez couldn't, as well as thinking Cotto could withstand what Chavez took. Pretty laughable the way I see it.

Sweet Pea

03-27-2008, 09:08 PM

Not strictly at 140lbs. But overall as a package Cotto's a more adaptable fighter than Chavez. Yes, Chavez has the better chin and punches even better to the body. But Cotto can give his opponent different looks, something Chavez seldom done. And before you care to mention, Chavez could box a little, but just a little. For instance, in Cotto's last fight he played the matador during the late rounds. He was boxing on the backfoot behind the jab and looking to more or less avoid Mosley's blows rather than push the action himself. Chavez couldn't muster up such an approach during a fight. If you actually read my post correctly when I said Cotto was more complete, I wasn't specific at a certain weight. Infact I said Chavez would win at 140lbs as Cotto's punch resistance wasn't good. Which is exactly why I responded the way I did, because this fight deals with a matchup at 140, not at 147. I read your post correctly.

Just because Chavez has achieved more and is greater how things stand, doesn't mean he's more adaptable than Cotto. I think Cotto is more adaptable and multi dimensional than Trinidad as well.
True, but Trinidad is probably a worse matchup for him at 147 than Chavez at 140, even if he is more versatile. His style still plays into Tito's hands.

Yeah, Cotto never had the experience and chin at 140lbs that he has now.
Which is the weight this matchup would be fought at.

Drew101

03-27-2008, 09:14 PM

The emoticon didn't make me mad in itself, just the idea that a pre-prime, shaky-chinned Cotto stops Taylor when Chavez couldn't, as well as thinking Cotto could withstand what Chavez took. Pretty laughable the way I see it.

Not necessarily. It's not like Cotto didn't display awesome recuperative powers in both of the instances where he was hurt. And, he boxed quite well against Abdellaev and Pinto at 140lbs, so if he elects to play the role of counter-puncher and forces MT to lead, then he would have had plenty of opportunity to land his own shots.

MT could box very well, but did like to go into the trenches and he did tend to rely upon volume rather than power to win fights. I say he takes the bait and pays the price in the later rounds. I don't see this being a blowout...and I could see Cotto scoring a late rounds KO.

So, the chance of Cotto winning is hardly a laughing matter, imo.

dpw417

03-27-2008, 09:15 PM

The emoticon didn't make me mad in itself, just the idea that a pre-prime, shaky-chinned Cotto stops Taylor when Chavez couldn't, as well as thinking Cotto could withstand what Chavez took. Pretty laughable the way I see it.
You can laugh all you want to, and I could care less about it. We'll just disagree on this one. It would be one tough fight.

teeto

03-27-2008, 09:19 PM

Maybe at 140 Taylor wins, i actually don't think he would STOP him, but he'd maybe wobble him enough to get a decision cemented. That would be the difference between this fight at 140-147, at 147 Cotto wins imo because he aint shaky, would still be tough though, Cotto's compact nut his defence ain't great, he could be opened up by Taylor, but i see Cotto landing heavy jabs and powerful bodyshots that would eventually win this fight for him.

About the Chavez- Cotto thing, Chavez wasnt all that powerful imo, im talking at the top level. By power i mean power-punching. Maybe the strongest his weight divisions have ever seen, but by no means of the greatest power-punchers. One of the greatest chins ever. His bodyshots were so precise and looked so heavy, just like his right hands upstairs, but he wasnt constantly laying guys out with them. He beats Cotto for strength, but i dunno about power p4p (meaning a power comparison between a 140 Chavez and a 147 Cotto)

Pat_Lowe

03-27-2008, 09:24 PM

Chavez wasn't great on the backfoot. He could go side to side and get behind the jab, but not for particularly long spells.

Cotto was losing those rounds, but Chavez couldn't show a fighter that kind of approach. Chavez's style was too tight and rigid for him to flow around the ring in a similar manner to Cotto.

Not for particularly long spells because obviously he was better at doing his normal thing. For some reason I feel that Chavez gets looked upon as a brawler type fighter. Much like Duran (who had even more dimensions then Chavez) he was more than that. Cotto showed he could get behind the jab and lose rounds. Great strategy right there I must say. That shows a flaw on Cotto's behalf not adaptation. In the later rounds of a close fight he chooses to 'box'.

Sweet Pea

03-27-2008, 09:27 PM

Not necessarily. It's not like Cotto didn't display awesome recuperative powers in both of the instances where he was hurt. That's not how I imagine Taylor beating him. I don't see him hurting Cotto early on with single shots and trying to finish him off, I simply see his immense workrate and relentlessness wearing Cotto down. He did beat a more durable fighter at the weight in McGirt, stopping him late.

And, he boxed quite well against Abdellaev and Pinto at 140lbs, so if he elects to play the role of counter-puncher and forces MT to lead, then he would have had plenty of opportunity to land his own shots.I would've thought the same thing about a much better in and out fighter like McGirt. It looked to me like he was the foil to Taylor's style. However, Taylor's handspeed and workrate were so great that McGirt simply wasn't able to pop in and out and land clean shots without getting tagged back repeatedly, and I see that as a huge problem for Cotto, especially if he elects to box in this fight. If he elects to pressure, he'll catch a beating like Chavez got, difference being durability and experience. His stamina was also not proven at 140 as it has been at 147.

MT could box very well, but did like to go into the trenches and he did tend to rely upon volume rather than power to win fights. I say he takes the bait and pays the price in the later rounds. I don't see this being a blowout...and I could see Cotto scoring a late rounds KO.
You and me see it differently. I see Taylor clearly getting the best of the younger, less durable Cotto in the trenches, which is why I choose him by late round TKO. I can't see him hurting Taylor early on, nor wearing him down as effectively as Chavez without feeling the effects of Taylor's attack.

So, the chance of Cotto winning is hardly a laughing matter, imo.
Well, to be completely blunt, we just disagree on this one. I see no way the younger, less durable Cotto could do better against Taylor than Chavez did, especially considering the factors that allowed Chavez to win.

teeto

03-27-2008, 09:28 PM

Oh , and people who don't think Chavez was adaptable havent seen all of Chavez, he was a better mover and jabber than his regular stance and shape suggested

Sweet Pea

03-27-2008, 09:29 PM

Oh , and people who don't think Chavez was adaptable havent seen all of Chavez, he was a better mover and jabber than his regular stance and shape suggestedAnd his straight right, from any distance, was about as accurate a punch as they came.

teeto

03-27-2008, 09:31 PM

And his straight right, from any distance, was about as accurate a punch as they came.
His best punch , not the left-hook downstairs

teeto

03-27-2008, 09:32 PM

His overhand right was probably more accurate than a lot of guy's jabs!!

TBooze

03-27-2008, 09:45 PM

His overhand right was probably more accurate than a lot of guy's jabs!!

Well by default you would expect that of a fighter who was probably the best in the world for three years (90-93). Despite being 5-12lbs and up to six years past his 135, 87 Rosario best. But then JC Superstar was a rather good fighter, indeed the Greatest Mexican ever (all be it by two seconds!).

Robbi

03-27-2008, 09:46 PM

Which is exactly why I responded the way I did, because this fight deals with a matchup at 140, not at 147. I read your post correctly.

True, but Trinidad is probably a worse matchup for him at 147 than Chavez at 140, even if he is more versatile. His style still plays into Tito's hands.

Which is the weight this matchup would be fought at.

Cotto's more adaptable than Chavez. He's a more complete fighter.

Chavez would win at 140lbs, but not at 147lbs. Cotto's chin has improved since he moved up and he's gained more experience.

Your reply "At 140 he was not more adaptable or complete" You did read my post wrong. If you read the above correctly I never specified Cotto had that over Chavez at 140lbs, you assumed. I gave my prediction at 140lbs and 147lbs.

Sweet Pea

03-27-2008, 09:48 PM

Your reply "At 140 he was not more adaptable or complete" You did read my post wrong. If you read the above correctly I never specified Cotto had that over Chavez at 140lbs, you assumed.I said that because that is what the matchup at hand referred to. We weren't talking about Cotto at 147, we were talking about him at 140, which is why I pointed that out.

Robbi

03-27-2008, 09:51 PM

I said that because that is what the matchup at hand referred to. We weren't talking about Cotto at 147, we were talking about him at 140, which is why I pointed that out.

Ok man. No problem. I was going to start a heated arguement with you and become personal and abusive. You were very lucky.

Joke :bush

brooklyn1550

03-27-2008, 09:51 PM

Not for particularly long spells because obviously he was better at doing his normal thing. For some reason I feel that Chavez gets looked upon as a brawler type fighter. Much like Duran (who had even more dimensions then Chavez) he was more than that. Cotto showed he could get behind the jab and lose rounds. Great strategy right there I must say. That shows a flaw on Cotto's behalf not adaptation. In the later rounds of a close fight he chooses to 'box'.

Are you referring to the Mosley fight?

In most of the later rounds, despite moving off of the backfoot, he was still landing the cleaner, more authoritative punches. And he wasn't boxing behind a jab, but rather moving, finding selective spots to counter. Mosley was pressuring him, but it wasn't very effective for the most part. Watch round 11 again.