Sonny Liston 1958 Film

[SuzieQ49]

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Heres part 1 of the Liston-whitehurst fight II 1958....checkout the other parts and watch the whole fight.


This is the sonny liston I am talking about. The fast sharp, technical liston people don't know about. This is the Liston I feel is a top 2-3 heavyweight of all time

[Sweet Pea]

His reach was phenomenal. Good speed, not great, but his reach and sense of distance more than made up for it. Showed a good lead left hook at times as well.

[SteveO]

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[SteveO]

His arms are so long and his fists were so big.

I would've liked to see this Liston fight Ali.

[sthomas]

Good Vid. He looked a bit slow & not much footwork in this to me, and took some pretty decent return leather from the opponent. I then watched Patterson II and Liston looked way faster with much better combos/footwork. Then had the treat of watching him fight ScrapIron Meechum and I thought he looked good in that one especially considering his age.

[Sonny's jab]

I've got Liston-Whitehurst 2 on DVD.
Liston was a great boxer but it's not a flawless performance by any means. Whitehurst survived the 10 rounds by the skin of his teeth, but he did survive, and did so TWICE with Liston. An old Archie Moore knocked the same guy out (twice?).

And I seem to remember Whitehurst caught Liston with one of the first meaningful punches of the fight, a right hand over the top, clean on Liston's temple, he actually puts Sonny off-balance a bit. Whitehurst was a capable journeyman but no world-beater.
Still, the majority of the fight is very good boxing from Liston.

I think Liston's two fights with Cleveland Williams are perhaps his best displays. He's tested against a big aggressive quick powerful opponent and he passes the test. Obviously the first Patterson fight is a flawless execution.

There was something missing from Liston when he faced Clay. The desire to win just wasn't there. I think the six rounds were fairly even, and Liston shows some decent ability at slipping a lot of Clay's punches, but he just gave up when he couldn't catch Clay early, and he had a cut and a lump under his eye. Maybe he had a injured shoulder too.

People say Clay schooled him so bad he quit but I just dont see it. Clay had a good 6th round (where Liston just stops fighting) and stunned Liston in the 3rd (though Liston retaliates quite nicely) , and danced well in the 1st, but it's hardly a one-sided schooling as people make out.
Stories of a fix aside, Liston perhaps just under-estimated Clay, and gassed out chasing him, and just never had that hunger as champion that he'd had as a contender.

The fight is surrounding by myth and exaggeration, stories about Liston's sinister connections, other stories to establish the legend of Muhammad Ali. People want to see something that isn't there. The way the fight transpired was actually quite farcical. And the rematch almost completely killed the credibility of the sport.

[ChrisPontius]

There was something missing from Liston when he faced Clay. The desire to win just wasn't there. I think the six rounds were fairly even, and Liston shows some decent ability at slipping a lot of Clay's punches, but he just gave up when he couldn't catch Clay early, and he had a cut and a lump under his eye. Maybe he had a injured shoulder too.

People say Clay schooled him so bad he quit but I just dont see it. Clay had a good 6th round (where Liston just stops fighting) and stunned Liston in the 3rd (though Liston retaliates quite nicely) , and danced well in the 1st, but it's hardly a one-sided schooling as people make out.
Stories of a fix aside, Liston perhaps just under-estimated Clay, and gassed out chasing him, and just never had that hunger as champion that he'd had as a contender.

The fight is surrounding by myth and exaggeration, stories about Liston's sinister connections, other stories to establish the legend of Muhammad Ali. People want to see something that isn't there. The way the fight transpired was actually quite farcical. And the rematch almost completely killed the credibility of the sport.


I disagree. Clay was in complete control at every moment of the fight. He moved away and Liston just followed him around in a straight line like a zombie with no clue of how to cut off the ring.

Outside of the round during which Clay was blinded, the 5th, i gave Liston only one round (i forgot which), so that means out of 5 fair rounds, he won only one. Most others were one-sidedly lost. Clay made him do whatever he pleased. He staggered Liston with a nice combination (so much for Sonny's iron chin).

At one point in the fight, you'll see Ali landing some punches with Liston on the ropes, followed by him taunting and yelling at him. Liston comes back with a double jab, but Ali steps back and nails him with a 1-2. He does all of it effortlessly, it seems. That takes the fight out of you. Especially if you are not a confident guy with his youth (ever hear him talk?). He face was messed up bad after only 6 rounds.

[Sonny's jab]

I disagree. Clay was in complete control at every moment of the fight. He moved away and Liston just followed him around in a straight line like a zombie with no clue of how to cut off the ring.

Outside of the round during which Clay was blinded, the 5th, i gave Liston only one round (i forgot which), so that means out of 5 fair rounds, he won only one. Most others were one-sidedly lost. Clay made him do whatever he pleased. He staggered Liston with a nice combination (so much for Sonny's iron chin).

At one point in the fight, you'll see Ali landing some punches with Liston on the ropes, followed by him taunting and yelling at him. Liston comes back with a double jab, but Ali steps back and nails him with a 1-2. He does all of it effortlessly, it seems. That takes the fight out of you. Especially if you are not a confident guy with his youth (ever hear him talk?). He face was messed up bad after only 6 rounds.

I dont think the fighting was as fierce or eventful as you imply.

I can remember the fight well. The 6th round was one-way traffic, but none of the others were, maybe the 1st was frustrating because Liston couldn't catch Clay but Clay hardly hit Liston there either, it was mostly dancing. And the 6th was a slow round, the slowest of the fight.

And if the 5th wasn't "fair" (?) what does it matter, it still happened to be quite heavily Liston's round.

You're saying 5 rounds count, 1 you gave Liston, (that leaves 4), and "most" of those 4 were "one-sided".
Well, I think Clay won 3 rounds too :lol: but it wasn't a emphatic "schooling" as made out.

Clay stunned Liston in the 3rd (perhaps the instance you're refering to) but Liston regrouped quite well at the end. Clay's holding on at times, and getting battered in the ribs. The 3rd was Clay's round, but this was the only time he stunned Liston and Liston came back quite strong.

"Clay was in complete control every moment of the fight" is based on subjective judgement when you can see at points where Liston is coming forward landing body shots, "winning moments", and Clay is hanging on or running. Yes, maybe he IS "in complete control", but my point is that that's not the same as giving the opponent a whipping. And Ali proved later on that he could be "in control" while TAKING a whipping. Or maybe he isn't in complete control and he's actually having to up his game throughout. It's irrelevant. Was he kicking the shit out of Liston ? I say no.

The fight was two-sided, and a dud, mostly uneventful.
Liston may have figured Clay was just too good for him, but he hardly took an ass-whipping. His quitting was a disgrace really.

ROUND 1 - Clay dances, Liston chases, Clay lands some jabs, but Liston evades some. Not many punches landed. Clay wins round on defensive superiority. He looks phenomenally quick.

ROUND 2 - Liston goes to the body. Another uneventful round. Clay does little. Liston scores the heavier punches. Liston wins this round.

ROUND 3 - The best round. Clay stuns Liston and has him backing off momentarily, but cannot capitalize, Liston retaliates and comes back strong at end of the round, but Clay hangs on. Clay's round.

ROUND 4 - Nothing much happens. Liston bores in, Clay ties him up, Liston scores with a heavy but scruffy left out of a clinch. I'd call this even.

ROUND 5 - Clay's blinking and his eyes are burning, Liston does some damage early on, scores with body shots, slows down as round progresses. Liston's round.

ROUND 6 - Liston plods, doesn't even seem to want to fight or force the action. Clay stands flat-footed. Liston stops slipping punches and Clay lands some flurries. The pace is slowing.


THE END.

That's a sober description of the fight. I dont see the "one-sided" "humiliating" "beating" that others make out. If Liston hadn't quit then maybe we would have seen Clay kick his butt thoroughly, but the 6 rounds we did see were not like that.

[Bokaj]

Well, in the sixth it had become a one-sided contest. I think Clay was ahead by then (I also only have him losing the fifth, but maybe one round even), but the important factor was that Liston seemed to have nothing left while Clay looked in perfect condition. My personal suspicion is that Liston feared Clay would knock him out as predicted in round 8 and quit in order not to suffer the humiliation.

But what a jab and what reach by Liston! He's got decent upper body movement as well.

[Sonny's jab]

Bokaj, I basically agree.

I cant say for sure whether Liston quit because he feared he'd get knocked out in predicted round, but he definitely quit and admitted defeat, that's the bottom line, and, yes, he looked like he had nothing left in the 6th, and Clay still looked fresh.

That's basically what I said in my first post, he looked gassed and quit. He didn't have the hunger, he wasn't prepared, he was out-of-condition, frustrated, lazy, whatever, all these can be true. This wasn't Liston at his best.

People who make out Clay gave him a thorough whipping and painfully outclassed him throughout are excusing Liston's quit job.

I cant fault Clay, he did exactly what needed to be done, and was putting on a fine performance while it lasted. No doubt he was capable of going up a gear or two if Liston hadn't quit.
The fight was a bit uneventful but if it had been played out further I think it would have been more dramatic. The ending was just farcical.

The Ali-Liston rematch was the ultimate insult though.

[mcvey]

[Only registered and activated users can see links]

Heres part 1 of the Liston-whitehurst fight II 1958....checkout the other parts and watch the whole fight.


This is the sonny liston I am talking about. The fast sharp, technical liston people don't know about. This is the Liston I feel is a top 2-3 heavyweight of all time
I wouldnt call Liston fast here ,but he is noticeably quicker than against Floyd and Ali,plus his foot speed is better,interesting to me was his weight 212 around what it was when he was Champ.His upper body is massive for his time ,but his legs are comparatively slender,as SQ says he looks the goods here ,a dangerous big hitter with boxing skills and a variety of shots ,no Heavyweight would have an easy night with a prime Sonny.

[Bokaj]

The Ali-Liston rematch was the ultimate insult though.

Yeah, that was as bad as they come. Too bad, because it would be interesting to see Ali against a fully prepared Liston, even if he was getting old at that stage. People say that the delaying of the fight demoralized Liston and maybe that was so. Ali on the other hand had probably matured somewhat as a fighter and become even better. Exactly what went on in Liston's mind those minutes the fight lasted we'll never know, I suppose.

[ChrisPontius]

I dont think the fighting was as fierce or eventful as you imply.

I can remember the fight well. The 6th round was one-way traffic, but none of the others were, maybe the 1st was frustrating because Liston couldn't catch Clay but Clay hardly hit Liston there either, it was mostly dancing. And the 6th was a slow round, the slowest of the fight.

And if the 5th wasn't "fair" (?) what does it matter, it still happened to be quite heavily Liston's round.

You're saying 5 rounds count, 1 you gave Liston, (that leaves 4), and "most" of those 4 were "one-sided".
Well, I think Clay won 3 rounds too :lol: but it wasn't a emphatic "schooling" as made out.

Clay stunned Liston in the 3rd (perhaps the instance you're refering to) but Liston regrouped quite well at the end. Clay's holding on at times, and getting battered in the ribs. The 3rd was Clay's round, but this was the only time he stunned Liston and Liston came back quite strong.

"Clay was in complete control every moment of the fight" is based on subjective judgement when you can see at points where Liston is coming forward landing body shots, "winning moments", and Clay is hanging on or running. Yes, maybe he IS "in complete control", but my point is that that's not the same as giving the opponent a whipping. And Ali proved later on that he could be "in control" while TAKING a whipping. Or maybe he isn't in complete control and he's actually having to up his game throughout. It's irrelevant. Was he kicking the shit out of Liston ? I say no.

The fight was two-sided, and a dud, mostly uneventful.
Liston may have figured Clay was just too good for him, but he hardly took an ass-whipping. His quitting was a disgrace really.

ROUND 1 - Clay dances, Liston chases, Clay lands some jabs, but Liston evades some. Not many punches landed. Clay wins round on defensive superiority. He looks phenomenally quick.

ROUND 2 - Liston goes to the body. Another uneventful round. Clay does little. Liston scores the heavier punches. Liston wins this round.

ROUND 3 - The best round. Clay stuns Liston and has him backing off momentarily, but cannot capitalize, Liston retaliates and comes back strong at end of the round, but Clay hangs on. Clay's round.

ROUND 4 - Nothing much happens. Liston bores in, Clay ties him up, Liston scores with a heavy but scruffy left out of a clinch. I'd call this even.

ROUND 5 - Clay's blinking and his eyes are burning, Liston does some damage early on, scores with body shots, slows down as round progresses. Liston's round.

ROUND 6 - Liston plods, doesn't even seem to want to fight or force the action. Clay stands flat-footed. Liston stops slipping punches and Clay lands some flurries. The pace is slowing.


THE END.

That's a sober description of the fight. I dont see the "one-sided" "humiliating" "beating" that others make out. If Liston hadn't quit then maybe we would have seen Clay kick his butt thoroughly, but the 6 rounds we did see were not like that.

I re-watched the fight and i agree that round 2 goes to Liston. He lands a perfect left hook early in the fight (Clay not hurt the slightest bit though) and a few body shots later.


I don't see how you can call the 4th even however.
The four categories to score a round for are defence, ring generalship, clean punching and effective aggression. Liston landed two punches and that's all. Clay landed a shitload of jabs and a few hooks, Clay takes clean punching. His defence was also clearly better as well as being the better ring general. Liston was agressive but not effective at all. I don't see how this one can be even.


But the point is that Clay was in total control of the fight. Over his entire career, he never really minded losing a few early rounds for the bigger picture. The 2nd round is an example of this, as he hardly attempted anything than a few light jabs. He was just tiring Liston.

The pivotal point is early/mid in the 3rd round. Clay lands a 6 or so punch combination, Liston is surprised, then he throws and lands another 6 or so punches that actually stagger Liston and drive him back into the ropes where he takes a few more. At this point, Clay is humiliating him not just in boxing terms but he screams at him, no doubt invoking memories of Sonny when he was mistreated and dominated early in life. He tries to retaliate from the ropes with a double jab, but Clay easily avoids them and answers with a sharp 1-2 that lands.

I don't know if you've ever boxed before, but if you have then you will know how frustrating it is when your opponent is always on the backfoot or ducking and as good as uncatchable. He already landed his sunday punch and nothing happened except that he took a lot in return when Clay decided to pour it on.



And Clay must really have heavy fists, for a fight that was as dull and actionless as you claim, he messed Liston's face up pretty bad.

This was before the 6th round:


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