Thoughts On Antofurmo/Hagler I & II?

[Russell]

Eh?

[jaywilton]

The draw for Vito was cool with me in their first fight;he fought one of the gutsiest fights I've seen to hang in there;I began to think Hagler was overrated beginning with Vito I-and I think claims that Hagler could've gotten Duran out of there(outside of a lucky shot)are stretching it.

[JohnPaul Futbol]

I've watched the first fight about 5 times, no way that was a draw. Hagler clearly won that fight.

[sthomas]

I watched #I on live TV way back when. Never watched it again yet. @ the time Haglar was definately the stronger of the two but Vito kept on coming back and it was very close in my opinion and thought the draw was fair.

[Sonny Carson]

I've watched the first fight about 5 times, no way that was a draw. Hagler clearly won that fight.
Exactly there's no way in hell that was a draw. There are some idiots on this site.

[salsanchezfan]

I agree that Hagler won, but it wasn't by a lot. Anyone claiming it to be some sort of terribly obvious thing is mistaken or hasn't seen it. Hagler DID fade noticeably in the second half of the fight, and Vito stole some rounds. I had Hagler by two points, and that's a close fight.


As to fight number two, Vito had been floored by Mauricio Aldana in the fight just before that, and suddenly seemed to look his age, according to what I've read (haven't seen that fight). That idea seemed reinforced when Hagler took him on the second time. I think the knockdown Hagker scored there was as much a balance issue for Vito as being hurt; the punch landed on his forehead, if memory serves, and he was squared up against Hagler I think. I'll have to watch it again.

Vito just seemed more passive and out of synch, and Marvin sliced him up, forcing a stoppage.

Which goes to show you, when Antuofermo didn't bleed, he could be difficult to stay with.

[Russell]

The butt in round one was a real bitch. Just seemed destined to happen against poor Antofurmo.

[Dave's Top Ten]

The difference between the first and second fight was Hagler's confidence. Hagler looked like a champion in the second fight. Having said that, the second butt in the rematch looked deliberate to me.

I just cannot fathom some people's opinion of the first fight. Vito fought a rugged fight and showed real heart but he got trounced ! I've watched the fight a number of times and believe it's possibly the worst decision I've ever seen, forget about Lewis Holy I. Being super generous to Vito, I would give him 5 rounds. Admittedly I am a Hagler fan but this one has to be the worst Hagler got screwed in his career. Much worse than the Duran fight and the SRL fight (which was uber close anyway). Vito came on strong in the final 5 round but that doesn't mean he managed to get much done in the first 10: rounds in which Marvin put on a clinic ! It amazes me the number of people who think Vito deserved a draw. It's significant I think that I've never read anyone who thinks he actually won.

[JohnThomas1]

I agree that Hagler won, but it wasn't by a lot. Anyone claiming it to be some sort of terribly obvious thing is mistaken or hasn't seen it. Hagler DID fade noticeably in the second half of the fight, and Vito stole some rounds. I had Hagler by two points, and that's a close fight.


As to fight number two, Vito had been floored by Mauricio Aldana in the fight just before that, and suddenly seemed to look his age, according to what I've read (haven't seen that fight). That idea seemed reinforced when Hagler took him on the second time. I think the knockdown Hagker scored there was as much a balance issue for Vito as being hurt; the punch landed on his forehead, if memory serves, and he was squared up against Hagler I think. I'll have to watch it again.

Vito just seemed more passive and out of synch, and Marvin sliced him up, forcing a stoppage.

Which goes to show you, when Antuofermo didn't bleed, he could be difficult to stay with.

Yeah, that's about it for me. Back in the day many still believed you had to beat the champ convincingly to win and that is the case here i think. Nowadays close rounds are not so easily decided. Vito showed some real rugged ability in the first encounter and was as tough as nails. A tad underrated at times. He was solidly bested by Minter between bouts and was definitely on the decline.

[scartissue]

[quote=salsanchezfan]I agree that Hagler won, but it wasn't by a lot. Anyone claiming it to be some sort of terribly obvious thing is mistaken or hasn't seen it. Hagler DID fade noticeably in the second half of the fight, and Vito stole some rounds. I had Hagler by two points, and that's a close fight.



I had it dead even going into the final round and gave the 15th to Marvin, so I didn't have a problem with the draw either.

Scartissue

[Dave's Top Ten]

[quote=salsanchezfan]I agree that Hagler won, but it wasn't by a lot. Anyone claiming it to be some sort of terribly obvious thing is mistaken or hasn't seen it. Hagler DID fade noticeably in the second half of the fight, and Vito stole some rounds. I had Hagler by two points, and that's a close fight.



I had it dead even going into the final round and gave the 15th to Marvin, so I didn't have a problem with the draw either.

Scartissue

Scartissue,
I have the fight on tape and have watched it several times (making Hagler a clear winner). Which rounds do you think Vito won? It would be interesting to check them out.

ps if you had it even into the last round and Hagler won it, then you made him win by ONE point.

[kenmore]

I saw the first Hagler-Antuofermo fight live on TV with a bunch of friends. All of us were waiting for Hagler to take over and win by stoppage -- as was expected by everyone in the boxing world -- but it never happened.

It was really incredible to see Antuofermo come on strong after the tenth round and win most of the later rounds.

Even in spite of Antuofermo's late round success, though, I think Hagler got ripped off by the judges. Hagler won most of the first ten rounds and that should have given him an edge of about 9-6 or 8-5-2 on the cards after fifteen rounds.

Marvin had a history of being shafted by judges. Of his three losses (Boogaloo Watts, Worm Monroe and Sugar Ray Leonard), only the Monroe bout was a true defeat (1976 decision). By all accounts the Watts fight (1976 decision in Watt's hometown of Philadelphia) was a robbery, with even the Pennsylvania boxing commission admitting error. The Sugar Ray decision (1987) could have gone either way. Many reasonable observers felt Hagler deserved the nod against Leonard.

The same is true with Hagler's early career draw (1974 bout in Seattle) with Sugar Ray Seales. That verdict was widely regarded as a hometown gift for Seales.

Fortunately, Hagler tended to mete out justice in rematches. Antuofermo, Watts, Monroe and Seales were all decisively knocked out by Marvin in return bouts.

[Bummy Davis]

No Way Hagler Deserved The 1st Fight

[Nemesis]

I must be the only person who had their first fight a Draw too. Hagler GOT caught too often in close IMO

[kenmore]

Bummy and Nemesis: do you remember how you scored the first Hagler-Antuofermo in rounds?

[Nemesis]

Bummy and Nemesis: do you remember how you scored the first Hagler-Antuofermo in rounds?

sorry no, the last time i watched it I remember the commentary team were high on Marv and I felt they were not appreciating the work that Vito was doing in close. One thing is certain Auntofermo came on strong

[salsanchezfan]

..........I have it on VHS here somewhere. I'll score it tonight and post my results.

[PhillyPhan69]

I agree that Hagler won, but it wasn't by a lot. Anyone claiming it to be some sort of terribly obvious thing is mistaken or hasn't seen it. Hagler DID fade noticeably in the second half of the fight, and Vito stole some rounds. I had Hagler by two points, and that's a close fight.


As to fight number two, Vito had been floored by Mauricio Aldana in the fight just before that, and suddenly seemed to look his age, according to what I've read (haven't seen that fight). That idea seemed reinforced when Hagler took him on the second time. I think the knockdown Hagker scored there was as much a balance issue for Vito as being hurt; the punch landed on his forehead, if memory serves, and he was squared up against Hagler I think. I'll have to watch it again.

Vito just seemed more passive and out of synch, and Marvin sliced him up, forcing a stoppage.

Which goes to show you, when Antuofermo didn't bleed, he could be difficult to stay with.

I am glad you are back. I agree I had a Hagler win in the First encounter, but in no way was it a lopsided fight. Vito is largely under rated and many times unappreciated. I love watching Minter-Antuofermo for a classic battle (one of the more difficult to score as well!). The first fight was Hagler's in my book, but robbery is harsh. I don't know what I can add about the 2nd encounter?

[kenmore]

..........I have it on VHS here somewhere. I'll score it tonight and post my results.

I agree with you that Hagler deserved to win by about two rounds. He built up quite an early fight lead and I don't believe Vito's late surge was enough to compensate.

It was cool to see Antuofermo buck the odds and give Hagler a great fight, but it was not cool to see the judges rip Hagler off again. This is especially so because Hagler was forced to wait so long for his title fight.

Marvin had to wait years before he was given a title shot, and he was forced to stand aside and see less deserving boxers get their shots ahead of him. They say Hagler was a guy with a chip on his shoulder, and frankly, I can totally understand why.

[salsanchezfan]

I am glad you are back. I agree I had a Hagler win in the First encounter, but in no way was it a lopsided fight. Vito is largely under rated and many times unappreciated. I love watching Minter-Antuofermo for a classic battle (one of the more difficult to score as well!). The first fight was Hagler's in my book, but robbery is harsh. I don't know what I can add about the 2nd encounter?


...........Thanks man, nice to be back. I agree, Vito gets short shrift a lot of the time as "that bleeder guy." He was far more than that, even if he didn't have a lot in the way of classic skills or power. Doggedness really does count for something it seems.

[salsanchezfan]

I agree with you that Hagler deserved to win by about two rounds. He built up quite an early fight lead and I don't believe Vito's late surge was enough to compensate.

It was cool to see Antuofermo buck the odds and give Hagler a great fight, but it was not cool to see the judges rip Hagler off again. This is especially so because Hagler was forced to wait so long for his title fight.

Marvin had to wait years before he was given a title shot, and he was forced to stand aside and see less deserving boxers get their shots ahead of him. They say Hagler was a guy with a chip on his shoulder, and frankly, I can totally understand why.


..........So if you had Hagler winning by only two points, would you then agree that that constitutes a close fight? By definition, how can any fight that close going one way or the other be considered a robbery?

[Nemesis]

I agree with you that Hagler deserved to win by about two rounds. He built up quite an early fight lead and I don't believe Vito's late surge was enough to compensate.

It was cool to see Antuofermo buck the odds and give Hagler a great fight, but it was not cool to see the judges rip Hagler off again. This is especially so because Hagler was forced to wait so long for his title fight.

Marvin had to wait years before he was given a title shot, and he was forced to stand aside and see less deserving boxers get their shots ahead of him. They say Hagler was a guy with a chip on his shoulder, and frankly, I can totally understand why.

Boxing is boxing, there are a lot worse stories than Hagler having to wait a couple of years for his title shot, Robinson had to wait donkeys years to get his shot whilst some other greats like Burley and Langford never got their chance.

What I personally dislike in fighters is ones who bitch and whine and unfortunately Hagler takes it to the Nth degree, he is still struggling to come to terms with his last defeat, which as proven on polls on these boards, most agreed that Leonard just nicked it.

[kenmore]

..........So if you had Hagler winning by only two points, would you then agree that that constitutes a close fight? By definition, how can any fight that close going one way or the other be considered a robbery?

I didn't score it at the time...I am only estimating that Hagler won by a two or three point margin. Of one thing I am certain: Hagler deserved to win.

My answer to your question is that a fight can be close yet still be unquestionably in favor of one contestant.

As I recall, most of the rounds won by Hagler were very clear cut in terms of Hagler's dominance. I don't think there should be any question that Hagler won more rounds than Vito did. In terms of the final scorecard, that should have translated into Hagler having the fight in his pocket after fifteen rounds. This is true even in spite of Antuofermo taking control of the bout in the later rounds.

[salsanchezfan]

I didn't score it at the time...I am only estimating that Hagler won by a two or three point margin. Of one thing I am certain: Hagler deserved to win.

My answer to your question is that a fight can be close yet still be unquestionably in favor of one contestant.

As I recall, most of the rounds won by Hagler were very clear cut in terms of Hagler's dominance. I don't think there should be any question that Hagler won more rounds than Vito did. In terms of the final scorecard, that should have translated into Hagler having the fight in his pocket after fifteen rounds. This is true even in spite of Antuofermo taking control of the bout in the later rounds.


.........Waitwaitwait.......you didn't actually score it, but you're sure Hagler took it? How's THAT work? :huh

[kenmore]

.........Waitwaitwait.......you didn't actually score it, but you're sure Hagler took it? How's THAT work? :huh

From what I saw it was clear that Hagler won more rounds than Vito did. Anyway, it really doesn't matter...we both agree that Hagler won.

As for Vito, it was one hell of an effort. The first Hagler fight was Vito's greatest effort as a professional. Had the fight been one of those old 20 rounders, Vito would have won.

I hated to see Antuofermo lose to Minter in his next fight. That spoiled the respect he won through his effort against Hagler.

[PhillyPhan69]

From what I saw it was clear that Hagler won more rounds than Vito did. Anyway, it really doesn't matter...we both agree that Hagler won.

As for Vito, it was one hell of an effort. The first Hagler fight was Vito's greatest effort as a professional. Had the fight been one of those old 20 rounders, Vito would have won.

I hated to see Antuofermo lose to Minter in his next fight. That spoiled the respect he won through his effort against Hagler.

You must not be a Minter appreciator. His first fight with Minter should raise the stock of both of them. Argument could be made just as easily that Vito won the first encounter.

[kenmore]

You must not be a Minter appreciator. His first fight with Minter should raise the stock of both of them. Argument could be made just as easily that Vito won the first encounter.

Actually I liked Alan Minter as well. But the Antuofermo-Minter bout was so close, as you point out, that it was a shame to see Vito lose it. I agree that it could have gone either way.

[salsanchezfan]

..........Got Hagler-Vito on right now. Scoring away......:D


Cosell is describing how this is the warmup fight for the to-be-aired Leoanrd-Benitez fight on Wide World Of Sports. Christ, those were the days.

[kenmore]

..........Got Hagler-Vito on right now. Scoring away......:D


Cosell is describing how this is the warmup fight for the to-be-aired Leoanrd-Benitez fight on Wide World Of Sports. Christ, those were the days.

Why don't you give us updates and your scores on a round-by-round basis. That would be very interesting. Thanks.

[salsanchezfan]

........Well shit. I have two VHS copies of this one, and the one I could find seems to be missing rounds 7 and 9. The other one is missing round 15, which would have been the better one to root out, but there ya go. Between the two, I have the complete fight.

I gave Hagler rounds 1 thru 4
Vito wins round five
Round six even
Round eight To Vito
Rounds 10 and 11 to Hagler
Rounds 12 thru 14 go to Vito; Hagler becomes much less active and allows Antuofermo to crowd him more.
Round 15 is close, but goes to Hagler.


I gotta find that other copy. I also have to start labelling this shit. :mad:

[redrooster]

Vito showed his greatness that night. He refused to go home without his belts.

[Gayweather]

I remember watching it. I thought Hagler won. Vito had great heart and determination though. I remember how sad I was when he fought Minter. I was a Hagler fan before he fought Vito, after that classic I was a Vito fan too. It is one of my favorite fights.

[TBooze]

Fight one was darn close and a draw was an understandable result. Hagler blew it, or rather his sometimes baffling ability to blindly follow what the Petronelli's tell him, cost him. Hagler took it too easy in the later rounds, boxing on the back foot which meant Vito could come foward and fight to his strengths.

The rematch was perhaps Hagler at his most Marvelous best.

[redrooster]

I remember watching it. I thought Hagler won. Vito had great heart and determination though. I remember how sad I was when he fought Minter. I was a Hagler fan before he fought Vito, after that classic I was a Vito fan too. It is one of my favorite fights.

There's nothing wrong in being an Autuofuermo man. I am one myself. You have dopey critics floating around here saying "hagler blew it" - bunch of crybabies, instead of putting the blame where it belongs-on Vito. Up to that point, Vito only had one loss if you dont count the other two being on account of cuts. I think Cosell was right in giving Vito the credit and even said before the announcement that it could be a draw.

[Bummy Davis]

Yes, I had Vito the fight 7-7-1 but the 13th was a big round for Vito when he staggered Hagler and urged him to mix, I thought there were many even rounds but I felt Vito deserved the win and gave the even rd to Vito and the fight 8-7, because a lot of the rds Hagler won were edged. Hagler did not by any means take Vito's title and Vito was no Misquito

[kenmore]

I definitely need to see this fight again. Can someone post it on youtube.com?

[Nemesis]

Kenmore, check your PM's

[scartissue]

[quote=scartissue]

Scartissue,
I have the fight on tape and have watched it several times (making Hagler a clear winner). Which rounds do you think Vito won? It would be interesting to check them out.

ps if you had it even into the last round and Hagler won it, then you made him win by ONE point.


That is correct. I had Hagler winning the fight by a score of 8-7. And over a 15 round fight with a score of 8-7 I do not have a problem with a draw.

Scartissue

[Manassa]

11-4 for Hagler. This draw was nearly as bad as Whitaker-Chavez; Chavez clearly won, just as Hagler did.

[scartissue]

The Associated Press scored the fight 143-142 for Antuofermo. It just depends on ones view of the fight.

Scartissue

[Bummy Davis]

There Were A Lot Of Close Rds But Vito Fought His Fight Getting Close To Hagler And Mauling Him...title Did Not Change Hands That Night And I Thought Marvin Was Going To Walk Through Vito, I Respect What Howard Cosell Called Vito's "intestinal Fortitude"and There Was No Way Hagler Deserved The Title Imo..vito Kept His Title

[PhillyPhan69]

........Well shit. I have two VHS copies of this one, and the one I could find seems to be missing rounds 7 and 9. The other one is missing round 15, which would have been the better one to root out, but there ya go. Between the two, I have the complete fight.

I gave Hagler rounds 1 thru 4
Vito wins round five
Round six even
Round eight To Vito
Rounds 10 and 11 to Hagler
Rounds 12 thru 14 go to Vito; Hagler becomes much less active and allows Antuofermo to crowd him more.
Round 15 is close, but goes to Hagler.


I gotta find that other copy. I also have to start labelling this shit. :mad:

Just watched it last night...here is my card:

I gave Vito rd 1 and hagler 2-4
(I have hagler 39-37 you 40-36)

I gave Vito 5 and Hagler 6-7
(Hagler 68-65)

I gave Vito 8 and Hagler 9-10
Hagler 97-93

I gave Vito 11-14
133-133

I gave Hagler 15
Hagler 143-142

a big difference is you called rd 6 even (i scored hagler) The judges ALL had 1 rd even by their card totals as well...so if I gave Vito a 10 in rd 6 a draw is right in line.

Part of the controversy IMO stems from 2 things perception:
Are body shots equally comprable to jabs (do you favor or score one higher than the other?)
What is more meaningful to you nice combos' and slightly more pucnhes or harder cleaner shots?
Some rds were so close it would probably be decided by what the judge counted more effectively.

The second factor is the 10 point must system:
I found 9 rds very close and don't think it would be a surprise to see some one choose rd 1,2,5,8,9,10,11,13,14 differently than I did.

there were 6 rds that were decisively won IMO 3,4,6,7,12,15
but none ******ted a 10-8 rd. By the way 5 of those 6 were hagler rds. IMO

Meaning Hagler won 5 of 6 decisevely While the rds Antuofermo won were much more tightly contested. I think because hagler controlled the action in the rounds he won many people state he won the fight. IMO their argument should be against the 10 point must system and not this actual verdict which I find very fair (although I had Hagler by a point!)

I could feasibly score 3 more close rds vitos way (indicative of the judge who scored in his favor 144-142
or any of 6 rds to hagler (or even an even rd) indicative of the 145-141 Hagler card

I don't fin the judge who scored 143-143 of base if he chose rd 6 or another close rd as an even rd, just because I did not.

great fight, and should not be marred by any major controversy! IMO

[booradley]

Fight one was darn close and a draw was an understandable result. Hagler blew it, or rather his sometimes baffling ability to blindly follow what the Petronelli's tell him, cost him. Hagler took it too easy in the later rounds, boxing on the back foot which meant Vito could come foward and fight to his strengths.

The rematch was perhaps Hagler at his most Marvelous best.

I agree with this assesment. Back when i saw it on TV I thought Haglar got robbed. Recently I saw it on Ringside Classics, and could easily go with the draw.

[Dave's Top Ten]

For anyone interested debating this one one last time the full fight has been posted on YouTube in the last coupla days. Search "Marvin Hagler vs. Vito Antuofermo". My updated score: 146-140 Hagler. First 1,2,3,4,6,10,11,12,14,15 to MH. 5,7,8,13 to Vito. Round 9 even.

Still looks like a complete robbery to me.

[PhillyPhan69]

For anyone interested debating this one one last time the full fight has been posted on YouTube in the last coupla days. Search "Marvin Hagler vs. Vito Antuofermo". My updated score: 146-140 Hagler. First 1,2,3,4,6,10,11,12,14,15 to MH. 5,7,8,13 to Vito. Round 9 even.

Still looks like a complete robbery to me.

Wow..I don't see any way hagler won 11-14, and certainly not all of them! IMHO!

[Dave's Top Ten]

Wow..I don't see any way hagler won 11-14, and certainly not all of them! IMHO!

Well its on YouTube for all to see...check it out !

[Dave's Top Ten]

Wow..I don't see any way hagler won 11-14, and certainly not all of them! IMHO!

I gave Vito round 13. The thing to take into consideration in this fight, and many similar fights, is that just because a fighter who was getting beaten earlier on starts to do better, it doesn't necessarily mean he is now winning. It simply means he's losing closer rounds.

[PhillyPhan69]

I gave Vito round 13. The thing to take into consideration in this fight, and many similar fights, is that just because a fighter who was getting beaten earlier on starts to do better, it doesn't necessarily mean he is now winning. It simply means he's losing closer rounds.

Look back a page and see that Sal saw it pretty much the same way (although we differed on rd 11)...I have not heard of anyone giving all of these rds to Hagler.

[PhillyPhan69]

Well its on YouTube for all to see...check it out !

I have it on disc...I don't like you tube's unclear screen....although I use it in a pinch!

[Dave's Top Ten]

Look back a page and see that Sal saw it pretty much the same way (although we differed on rd 11)...I have not heard of anyone giving all of these rds to Hagler.

Giving Hagler a victory by 5 or 6 rounds is not outrageous. I have commonly seen other people's opinion of a 5 round win for Hagler on the ESB boards and other places. Who's Sal, the god of all judges? As incredulous as you may be at my scoring, I am equally bewildered at yours. "What are you watching" is probably what we are both thinking.
Vito fought a rugged fight and some of the rounds were close but it doesn't mean he won them. Big hearts win sympathy and rounds (unjustifiably) sometimes and that is one of the many flaws in boxing scoring. It's a massively flawed system, but I think we all know that. :thumbsup