Jeffries v Sharkey 2Was Jeffries in Danger of being KOd?

[mcvey]

Just read an old article by Bob Waters entitled "Worst Decisions",in it he alleges,Sharkey was ahead after 17 rounds ,that Jeffries had his nose broken early in the fight. In the last 5 rounds Sharkey suffered 5 broken ribs,,but in the last round he wobbled Jeffries with a right hand,before he could follow up ,Jeffries right glove came off,and dropped to the canvas,Sharkey looked at the glove ,then at the referee ,Tom Siler,Siler stopped the action ,picked up Jeffries glove and helped him get it back on.The fight resumes,Sharkey lands another big right,again the glove comes off,Siler halts the scrap,puts the glove back on Jeffries,here is the interesting part,at no time did Siler instruct the timekeeper to make adjustments for the two stoppages.The fight ends Waters states "with Jeffries wavering on his feet"."Siler raises Jefries hand in victory,and the crowd went into a frenzy".",Siler had to have police escort him from the ring.
Later he was to say Jeffries had won the last few rounds ,and in his opinion ,deserved the victory, Waters quotes Siler as saying"it was a 25 round fight ,if it had been 20 rds Sharkey would have been the winner"Since the last round was not filmed,[ they ran out of film],the two men re- enacted the round for the camera,minus the dropped glove incident.The question is does anyone know how much of this is true ,and how much is fable?Was Jeffries close to being stopped ?

[Russell]

Never heard of it before.

Hope someone else here knows more about it, though.

[mcvey]

The odds are Mendoza can shed some light on it,I knew the glove came off once,its a trick question that often comes up in boxing quizzes , when was the last time a heavyweight title fight featured bare hands?

[janitor]

Just read an old article by Bob Waters entitled "Worst Decisions",in it he alleges,Sharkey was ahead after 17 rounds ,that Jeffries had his nose broken early in the fight. In the last 5 rounds Sharkey suffered 5 broken ribs,,but in the last round he wobbled Jeffries with a right hand,before he could follow up ,Jeffries right glove came off,and dropped to the canvas,Sharkey looked at the glove ,then at the referee ,Tom Siler,Siler stopped the action ,picked up Jeffries glove and helped him get it back on.The fight resumes,Sharkey lands another big right,again the glove comes off,Siler halts the scrap,puts the glove back on Jeffries,here is the interesting part,at no time did Siler instruct the timekeeper to make adjustments for the two stoppages.The fight ends Waters states "with Jeffries wavering on his feet"."Siler raises Jefries hand in victory,and the crowd went into a frenzy".",Siler had to have police escort him from the ring.
Later he was to say Jeffries had won the last few rounds ,and in his opinion ,deserved the victory, Waters quotes Siler as saying"it was a 25 round fight ,if it had been 20 rds Sharkey would have been the winner"Since the last round was not filmed,[ they ran out of film],the two men re- enacted the round for the camera,minus the dropped glove incident.The question is does anyone know how much of this is true ,and how much is fable?Was Jeffries close to being stopped ?

I think this must refer to the first Jeffries Sharkey fight.

The acounts that I have read all suggest that Jeffries finished the second fight the stronger and was controling Sharkey with his jab.

[mcvey]

No ,J ,its definitely the second fight,.I have the article before me.Coney Island Nov 3 1899.

[janitor]

This is typical of the acounts I have read. Interestingly Jeffries seems to have switched to a southpaw stance in the later rounds.

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[mcvey]

This is typical of the acounts I have read. Interestingly Jeffries seems to have switched to a southpaw stance in the later rounds.

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Ive read the accounts ,but this is new stuff to me ,so I thought someone might have some info on it,maybe Mendoza.Bob Waters was a respected boxing journalist who covered the big fights ,dont know if he is still around,[he,s American],but I never read that Jeffries was in danger of being stopped before.

[Mendoza]

The odds are Mendoza can shed some light on it,I knew the glove came off once,its a trick question that often comes up in boxing quizzes , when was the last time a heavyweight title fight featured bare hands?


Sharkey pinned Jeffries arm and pulled his glove off in round 25. When the ref picked the glove up, the Sharkey took a murderous swipe at Jeffries. Many viewed it as an attempt to foul as Sharkey's corner man O'Rorke ( Spelling ) gave some sort of signal when it happened.

Jeffries was never close to going down in the fight, but he did have his hands full in for sure.

[mcvey]

Sharkey pinned Jeffries arm and pulled his glove off in round 25. When the ref picked the glove up, the Sharkey took a murderous swipe at Jeffries. Many viewed it as an attempt to foul as Sharkey's corner man O'Rorke ( Spelling ) gave some sort of signal when it happened.

Jeffries was never close to going down in the fight, but he did have his hands full in for sure.
Thanks for the info,I doubt that Sharkey hit hard enough to drop Jeffries,as Fitz couldnt do it,but its better to follow things up I feel.

[Mendoza]

Thanks for the info,I doubt that Sharkey hit hard enough to drop Jeffries,as Fitz couldnt do it,but its better to follow things up I feel.

I think Sharkey hit plenty hard. He is rated as one of Ring Magazine’s top all time 100 punchers, his ring record reads like a puncher ( lots of early KO's, 37 KO's in his 40 wins ), and Ko'd some top rated guys early in Choysnki, Goddard, and Ruhlin. Corbett looked to be in some trouble and might have been KO’d had his second not entered the ring to help him.


Sharkey was a throw back to a day and age when men came out fighting. If Sharkey missed his man with his fists, there was always his head to ram him with.

I do think Fitz hit a bit harder than Sharkey though.

[janitor]

One interesting feature of the fight is that Jeffries seems to have shifted to a southpaw stance later on. His left was in a bad way going into the fight which prevented him from using it to jab so he switched stances to jab with his right.

[Ted Spoon]

Fitzsimmons hit markedly harder than Sharkey.

The 'Sailor' got to his man via shattering their foundations with his wrestling and fouling - that's how he got to Corbett the boxer so well.

Many reports of the day criticize Jeffries, 'the bigger man', for not ridding of Sharkey, earlier and at all. The papers questioned his killer instinct and strength for a small man like Sharkey to be giving him all he could handle.

Tom was just tough to the bone, and smothered much of Jeffries work with clinches, although Jeffries won the fight on the basis on cleaner, more effective punching.

[SuzieQ49]

Interesting how a 5'8 180lb Tom Sharkey was able to push around and beat up Big Jeffries for much of the fight. This might make some rethink how bigger better swarmers like marciano,dempsey,frazier would fare against Jeff.

[Mendoza]

Interesting how a 5'8 180lb Tom Sharkey was able to push around and beat up Big Jeffries for much of the fight. This might make some rethink how bigger better swarmers like marciano,dempsey,frazier would fare against Jeff.

Shareky was 183 pounds for the fight. Sharkey was not light; he was an extremely well muscled compact fighter without an ounce of fat on him. If you watch the left over flim, Sharkey is the one being pushed around.

Marciano and Dempsey on average were about 185-187 pounds, which is a full 3-5 pounds heavier than Sharkey was on the night he fought Jeffries. This is not much bigger at all. In fact, Sharkey's tale of the tape was better than Marciano's in many measurements, perpahs all of them save height.

[mcvey]

Shareky was 183 pounds for the fight. Sharkey was not light; he was an extremely well muscled compact fighter without an ounce of fat on him. If you watch the left over flim, Sharkey is the one being pushed around.

Marciano and Dempsey on average were about 185-187 pounds, which is a full 3-5 pounds heavier than Sharkey was on the night he fought Jeffries. This is not much bigger at all. In fact, Sharkey's tale of the tape was better than Marciano's in many measurements, perpahs all of them save height.
Dempsey weighed187 for Willard and 185 for Miske after that he steadily grew heavier,by the time he fought Firpo he was 1921/2.Likewise Marciano 184 when he won the title, he was up to 188 by the time of the Charles fight.plus Dempsey was over 5 inches taller than Sharkey. Sharkey was a well muscled fighter but Dempsey had biceps as big as Listons ,he was appreciably bigger than Sharkey,had far better skills and hand and footspeed ,plus he was a a terrific banger,he would be a very hard fight for Jeffries I feel

[Mendoza]

Dempsey weighed187 for Willard and 185 for Miske after that he steadily grew heavier,by the time he fought Firpo he was 1921/2.Likewise Marciano 184 when he won the title, he was up to 188 by the time of the Charles fight.plus Dempsey was over 5 inches taller than Sharkey. Sharkey was a well muscled fighter but Dempsey had biceps as big as Listons ,he was appreciably bigger than Sharkey,had far better skills and hand and footspeed ,plus he was a a terrific banger,he would be a very hard fight for Jeffries I feel

I agree. My comment was in terms of weight. Sharkey, Marciano, and Dempsey at their peak weights were within 6 pounds of each other.

While Sharkey was a known to foul, Demspey had the most vicious kidney attack I've ever seen in the clinches, and Marciano at times would go low.

[apollack]

That article appears to be from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle.

[SuzieQ49]

Shareky was 183 pounds for the fight. Sharkey was not light; he was an extremely well muscled compact fighter without an ounce of fat on him. If you watch the left over flim, Sharkey is the one being pushed around.

Marciano and Dempsey on average were about 185-187 pounds, which is a full 3-5 pounds heavier than Sharkey was on the night he fought Jeffries. This is not much bigger at all. In fact, Sharkey's tale of the tape was better than Marciano's in many measurements, perpahs all of them save height.

Marciano was around 3" taller than sharkey and he never showed up for a fight anywhere near 173lb in his prime like sharkey did, dempsey was around 5" taller than sharkey and never showed up in the 170s like sharkey did, frazier was 25lb heavier and 4 inches taller than sharkey. All 3 were more skilled, harder punchers, and more durable than sharkey. I find it hard to believe jeff could ever stop marciano, dempsey or frazier if he couldnt stop tom sharkey in 45 rounds......sharkey wasnt mr. durable either, Ruhlin twice finished him off as did Fitz

[SuzieQ49]

I think Jeff didnt use his size well at all vs smaller fighters like liston and foreman did.

[Mendoza]

Marciano was around 3" taller than sharkey and he never showed up for a fight anywhere near 173lb in his prime like sharkey did, dempsey was around 5" taller than sharkey and never showed up in the 170s like sharkey did, frazier was 25lb heavier and 4 inches taller than sharkey. All 3 were more skilled, harder punchers, and more durable than sharkey. I find it hard to believe jeff could ever stop marciano, dempsey or frazier if he couldnt stop tom sharkey in 45 rounds......sharkey wasnt mr. durable either, Ruhlin twice finished him off as did Fitz

There you go again.

Sharkey wasn't Mr. durable? Ring Magazine once did an article on the all time best chins and Sharkey was on it.

Sharkey could not punch? Ring Magazine once did an article on the best punchers, and Sharkey was on it.

Sharkey was too small. His prime weight was about 5 pounds less than Marciano, and Dempsey. If Sharkey is too light, then the others are also too light.

Yes, a green Jeffries and injured Jeffries could not stop Sharkey in two fights. However, he floored him in both fights, and badly beat him up. Sharkey’s durability, fighting heart, and stamina kept him up. Jeffries not finishing Sharkey, a hall of fame does not mean as much you think. Let’s compare and contrast..

What is Marciano's excuse for not finishing Ted Lowry in two fights? You are aware that Lowry might have been robbed of a decision win and GASP, had Marciano hurt? I have the news read.

What is Dempsey excuse for failing to finish Meehan in a few fights, and losing a decision to him?

What is Frazier's excuse for Failing to finish Bonevenna in two fights, getting floored by Bonevena twice, and barely escaping the first fight with a win?

Sharkey > Bonavenna > Lowry > Meehan

If you objectively think of things, you will change your opinions, just as you did on Liston. However, to change, you have to be willing to accept various facts. I think you can do it.

[janitor]

I have an article from the New York Times website which I cannot past but here is the link

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[mcvey]

I have an article from the New York Times website which I cannot past but here is the link

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Thanks Janitor that seems to clear any doubts up ,for me at least.

[SuzieQ49]

Sharkey wasn't Mr. durable? Ring Magazine once did an article on the all time best chins and Sharkey was on it.


Sharkey was durable, yes, but certainly not in the same class dempsey, frazier, marciano were. You didnt see these 3 getting flattened by non puncher Gus Ruhlin twice. I have film of Gus Ruhlin vs Denver Ed Martin, he was not very good.

Sharkey could not punch? Ring Magazine once did an article on the best punchers, and Sharkey was on it.

He could punch, yes, but certainly not in the same class as fraziers left hook, dempseys left hook, marcianos suzy Q.


Sharkey was too small. His prime weight was about 5 pounds less than Marciano, and Dempsey. If Sharkey is too light, then the others are also too light.

its not just about weight. Sharkey was only 5'8 tall, 3-5 Inches shorter than marciano, dempsey, frazier.


Yes, a green Jeffries and injured Jeffries could not stop Sharkey in two fights. However, he floored him in both fights, and badly beat him up. Sharkey’s durability, fighting heart, and stamina kept him up. Jeffries not finishing Sharkey, a hall of fame does not mean as much you think. Let’s compare and contrast..


Reports claim Sharkey beat up Jeff pretty good too. All I am saying that if Jeffries could have this much trouble with 5'8 sharkey, unable to put him away in 45 rounds, Its very unlikely that jeff would ever be able to stop marciano, dempsey, frazier.

If you objectively think of things, you will change your opinions, just as you did on Liston. However, to change, you have to be willing to accept various facts. I think you can do it.


I like my opinions very much, thank you. I only change them when I have too. Perhaps you should take some of your own advice into consideration when it comes to the klitschko brothers.

[dmt]

nice to see you back suzie

[prime]

Thanks for the info, guys.

Here's the testimony of Boxing Illustrated (November 1992 issue):

James J. Jeffries W25 Tom Sharkey. November 3, 1899, Coney Island:
"Heavyweight champion Jeffries, in his first title defense, dislocates his left elbow after flooring Sharkey in the third. Despite taking a pounding from Sharkey, Jeffries batters the challenger's face and right ear into a bloody mess and fractures three of Sharkey's ribs late in the bout to take the decision after one of the most grueling battles in boxing history."

[Mendoza]

SuzieQ49 Sharkey was durable, yes, but certainly not in the same class dempsey, frazier, marciano were. You didnt see these 3 getting flattened by non puncher Gus Ruhlin twice. I have film of Gus Ruhlin vs Denver Ed Martin, he was not very good.

I see you had no reply to the my comment Mendoza says: What is Marciano's excuse for not finishing Ted Lowry in two fights? You are aware that Lowry might have been robbed of a decision win and GASP, had Marciano hurt? I have the news read.

What is Dempsey excuse for failing to finish Meehan in a few fights, and losing a decision to him?

What is Frazier's excuse for Failing to finish Bonevenna in two fights, getting floored by Bonevena twice, and barely escaping the first fight with a win?

Sharkey > Bonavenna > Lowry > Meehan Care to reply to this? ??? I’d like read it.

What makes you think Sharkey wasn't as durable as Dempsey, Marciano, or Frazier? I will brush up on what you need to know here. Dempsey had a 1st round KO loss, was floored by Fripo 2x, at sea and shaken up vs Jack Sharkey, floored by Tunney, floored multiple times vs some guy names Sonnenberg ( Spelling ) and in some trouble vs Brennan.

Frazier was floored by lesser punchers period, and had a short career.

Marciano never faced a puncher in Jeffries, or Fitzsimmons class, nor did he fight out of his prime like Tom Sharkey did. Rocky chin is 100% untested by power hitters, and before you type it, no Joe Louis was shot and struggled to knock out 4 of his last 10 opponents.

While I do think Dempsey, Frazier, and Marciano were better than Sharkey, on the topic of durability, I think Sharkey is better than Frazier, did not go down as much as Dempsey did vs lesser punchers, and fought better punchers than Marciano. So its hard to say.


He could punch, yes, but certainly not in the same class as fraziers left hook, dempseys left hook, marcianos suzy Q.

Maybe so, but Frazier only had one punch.

its not just about weight. Sharkey was only 5'8 tall, 3-5 Inches shorter than marciano, dempsey, frazier.

You don't think Langford was too short, do you? Yes or no? Are you aware Frazier real hight is shorter than listed? Sharkey had better reach than Marciano, and a near even reach with Frazier. These are facts. Sharkey's tale of the tape measurement seem greater than, and thicker measurements than Dempsey, Fraizer, and Marciano in general with the omission of height.


Reports claim Sharkey beat up Jeff pretty good too. All I am saying that if Jeffries could have this much trouble with 5'8 sharkey, unable to put him away in 45 rounds, Its very unlikely that jeff would ever be able to stop marciano, dempsey, frazier.

Let's see these three beat Sharkey on their 12th fight, when Sharkey was in his prime and they were green, or injured when Sharkey was also in his prime. Jeffries offered Sharkey a 3rd match. Sharkey refused.


I like my opinions very much, thank you. I only change them when I have too. Perhaps you should take some of your own advice into consideration when it comes to the klitschko brothers.

You will never understand that many of these past sub 200-pound champions who lacked power and durability simply have little chance of beating talented and powerful super heavies. If small heavies, blown up light heavies or cruiser beat the Klitshcko’s, then I will change my mind. Too bad Roy Jones, and James Toney chickened out! The Klitschko’s would have wrecked them. Jones had a chance to fight Vitlai and moved out of the heavyweight divison. Toney said 1.5 million wasn't enough when Wlad was the #1 guy, then took an easy fight for less money.

[SuzieQ49]

You don't think Langford was too short, do you? Yes or no? Are you aware Frazier real hight is shorter than listed? Sharkey had better reach than Marciano, and a near even reach with Frazier. These are facts. Sharkey's tale of the tape measurement seem greater than, and thicker measurements than Dempsey, Fraizer, and Marciano in general with the omission of height.


Langford was clearly a much more skilled fighter than Tom Sharkey, and Langford proved on his resume he could knockout big skilled superheavyweights. Langford also wasnt a swarmer like Sharkey was.

Notice how all the great heavyweight swarmers throughout history tyson, frazier, marciano dempsey are all at least 5'11.


Mendoza says: What is Marciano's excuse for not finishing Ted Lowry in two fights? You are aware that Lowry might have been robbed of a decision win and GASP, had Marciano hurt? I have the news read.

What is Dempsey excuse for failing to finish Meehan in a few fights, and losing a decision to him?

What is Frazier's excuse for Failing to finish Bonevenna in two fights, getting floored by Bonevena twice, and barely escaping the first fight with a win?

Sharkey > Bonavenna > Lowry > Meehan


Tiger Ted Lowry only knew how to fight one way.......Survival. That was his style, to GO THE DISTANCE. He was a Savvy slick Tiger who knew all the tricks of the trade to keep from getting knocked out. Thats how he survived the Rock and many other top punchers of that era.

Maybe so, but Frazier only had one punch.


That one punch was so devastating he didnt need a strong right hand.

Frazier was floored by lesser punchers period, and had a short career.

Frazier wasnt knocked out twice by a Gus Ruhlin. In fact the only fighter ever to knockout joe frazier was George Foreman. The only Man Joe Frazier fought who was close to fitzimmons size and who hit as hard as fitz, Bob Foster, Frazier demolished him in 2 easy rounds and took some flush punches without blinking in round 1. Fitz knocked out sharkey.


Dempsey had a 1st round KO loss, was floored by Fripo 2x, at sea and shaken up vs Jack Sharkey, floored by Tunney, floored multiple times vs some guy names Sonnenberg ( Spelling ) and in some trouble vs Brennan.

Firpo could punch, Dempsey got up. Sharkey did not get up vs Ruhlin. Dempseys first round Kayo loss was argueably a dive. He knocked that turkey out in 1 round in the rematch. Sharkey was knocked out yet again by Ruhlin.


Dempsey was 17 years old, had the body of a Teenager and was more malnourished than a Ethyopian when he took on suddenberg.


Dempsey was far past his prime when he took on tunney and sharkey. He never went down vs sharkey.

I have the film, Dempsey was nowhere near going down vs Brennan


I think Sharkey is better than Frazier, did not go down as much as Dempsey did vs lesser punchers, and fought better punchers than Marciano. So its hard to say.

How could sharkey be better than frazier? the only man ever to knockout frazier was george foreman. Gus Ruhlin twice starched out Tom Sharkey.


Fought better punchers than marciano? wheres your evidence?


Marciano never faced a puncher in Jeffries, or Fitzsimmons class, nor did he fight out of his prime like Tom Sharkey did. Rocky chin is 100% untested by power hitters, and before you type it, no Joe Louis was shot and struggled to knock out 4 of his last 10 opponents.


You use the fact Louis only knocked out 4 of his last 10 opponents as reason why he couldnt punch anymore, but you forget 5 of those 10 opponents walcott 2x, charles, marciano, bivins were HALL OF FAMERS. The fact Louis was fighting top rated opposition was one reason. When foreman in the 1990s fought ranked opposition, he hardly scored any stoppages. Also Louis may have lacked the reflexes to finish guys off like he once did, but in terms of one punch raw power louis still had it, remenisist of his one punch kayo win over durable savold, knockouts over valentino, valdez and how he managed to mark up marciano and charles faces very badly with his heavy punches.


I think that 215lb Joe Louis hit harder than 165lb Fitzimmons. thats 50 extra pounds of natural brute muscle hitting you. I will give you Jeffries as being a better puncher than anyone marciano faced, But Marcianos chin was certainly tested vs punchers. Archie Moore rated # 4 on Rings top 100 punchers list was the ALL TIME KNOCKOUT king certainly packed a heavy punch in that straight right of his, and IMO moore was a bigger puncher than fitzimmons. Jersey Joe Walcott ranked # 66 on Rings all time punchers list was a hard puncher, he knocked charles out with one boom and put louis on the deck 3 times. On film it appears Walcott could really punch with both hands. Also Rex Layne who Nat Fleicher described as a "big puncher" and ESB's john Garfield described as packing a "big right hand", was 34-1 with 25 knockouts heading into the marciano fight, I have a layne knockout on film he could crack with that right hand. 6'4 Carmine Vingo was young and described by Charlie Goldman and Reg Gutteridge as being a very hard puncher even before the marciano fight. I think Walcott, Moore, Louis, Layne, Vingo is at the very least a decent group of punchers to be tested by and marciano certainly deserves credit for taking punches from those guys.

In fact Marciano Faced 3 guys(ranked # 1, # 4, # 66) on the Rings top 100 All time Punchers list, yet his chin is 100% untested???

[Mendoza]

SuzieQ49 Langford was clearly a much more skilled fighter than Tom Sharkey, and Langford proved on his resume he could knockout big skilled superheavyweights. Langford also wasnt a swarmer like Sharkey was.
Notice how all the great heavyweight swarmers throughout history tyson, frazier, marciano dempsey are all at least 5'11.

FYI, Marciano is listed under 5'11". Tyson is listed near 6', but he is more like 5'10". And Langford was a swarmer.


Tiger Ted Lowry only knew how to fight one way.......Survival. That was his style, to GO THE DISTANCE. He was a Savvy slick Tiger who knew all the tricks of the trade to keep from getting knocked out. Thats how he survived the Rock and many other top punchers of that era.

How come Lowry hurt Marciano, and according to the news read I had deserved to win the fight? By your logic, if Lorwy hurts Marciano, he is in trouble vs punchers.


Frazier wasnt knocked out twice by a Gus Ruhlin. In fact the only fighter ever to knockout joe frazier was George Foreman. The only Man Joe Frazier fought who was close to fitzimmons size and who hit as hard as fitz, Bob Foster, Frazier demolished him in 2 easy rounds and took some flush punches without blinking in round 1. Fitz knocked out sharkey.

Ali would disagree with you as he also TKo'd Frazier. IMO, Frazier's management didn't match him with punchers often. He did not fight Shavers, Lyle, Norton, R Williams, or Martin.


Firpo could punch, Dempsey got up. Sharkey did not get up vs Ruhlin. Dempseys first round Kayo loss was argueably a dive. He knocked that turkey out in 1 round in the rematch. Sharkey was knocked out yet again by Ruhlin.


Yes, after he was past his prime and not in the best of shape.

Dempsey was 17 years old, had the body of a Teenager and was more malnourished than a Ethyopian when he took on suddenberg.

Dempsey was far past his prime when he took on tunney and sharkey. He never went down vs sharkey.

I have the film, Dempsey was nowhere near going down vs Brennan


We were talking durablity here only. Demspey fought Brennan twice, and he had a hard go on one of the matches. My point is Sharkey's druablity was better than Frazier and could be argued with Demspey or Marciano's level.


Fought better punchers than marciano? wheres your evidence?

Jeffries, and Fitzsimmons were better punchers than anyone Marciano faced. Louis was old and lost his power, and it was his last fight when he was shot. That fight does not count for much.


You use the fact Louis only knocked out 4 of his last 10 opponents as reason why he couldnt punch anymore, but you forget 5 of those 10 opponents walcott 2x, charles, marciano, bivins were HALL OF FAMERS.

The facts are fine. And Charles, Bivins, and Wlacott were in fact chiny guys who were down plenty.


I think that 215lb Joe Louis hit harder than 165lb Fitzimmons. thats 50 extra pounds of natural brute muscle hitting you. I will give you Jeffries as being a better puncher than anyone marciano faced, But Marcianos chin was certainly tested vs punchers. Archie Moore rated # 4 on Rings top 100 punchers list was the ALL TIME KNOCKOUT king certainly packed a heavy punch in that straight right of his, and IMO moore was a bigger puncher than fitzimmons. Jersey Joe Walcott ranked # 66 on Rings all time punchers list was a hard puncher, he knocked charles out with one boom and put louis on the deck 3 times. On film it appears Walcott could really punch with both hands. Also Rex Layne who Nat Fleicher described as a "big puncher" and ESB's john Garfield described as packing a "big right hand", was 34-1 with 25 knockouts heading into the marciano fight, I have a layne knockout on film he could crack with that right hand. 6'4 Carmine Vingo was young and described by Charlie Goldman and Reg Gutteridge as being a very hard puncher even before the marciano fight. I think Walcott, Moore, Louis, Layne, Vingo is at the very least a decent group of punchers to be tested by and marciano certainly deserves credit for taking punches from those guys.

In fact Marciano Faced 3 guys(ranked # 1, # 4, # 66) on the Rings top 100 All time Punchers list, yet his chin is 100% untested???[/quote]

The Rings punchers list is heavy on pound for pound and popularity, which is why Moore rates as #4. Moore isn't close to being the 4th best heavyweight puncher of all time. I say, not even top 50!!! Walcott rating was gift in my opnion. He had too low KO percentage. By the way Fleisher said Fitz hit harder than Louis, and Vingo's KO percentage is very low, and I can't recall him ever KOing anyone ranked.

[SuzieQ49]

You will never understand that many of these past sub 200-pound champions who lacked power and durability simply have little chance of beating talented and powerful super heavies.

What talented powerful superheavyweights? Outside of Lennox Lewis, Riddick Bowe, Buster Douglas one night, Wladimir Klitschko......I have not seen any.

If small heavies, blown up light heavies or cruiser beat the Klitshcko’s, then I will change my mind.

Well a feather fisted cruiserweight Chris Bryd already Beat Vitali Klitschko.


Too bad Roy Jones, and James Toney chickened out!



James Toney was a past his prime obese 39 year old man, why should a man of his age be critisized for not taking on Wladimir? just because a slowed down 39 year old obese former middleweight already embarrased all the other superheavyweights in the division doesnt mean he should critisized for not taking on Wlad. If 39 year old white bearded obese middleweights are the best the heavyweight diviison has to offer, then maybe those superheavyweights arnt so talented as you think.


Wheres your evidence Roy Jones(who only planned to have one fight at heavyweight) ducked the Klitschko brothers?

The Klitschko’s would have wrecked them.

Thats your opinion, other opinions disagree


Jones had a chance to fight Vitlai and moved out of the heavyweight divison.

Jones was already 35 years old and aging fast, besides antonion tarver called him out at 175lb and Jones was essentially forced to fight him, and look what happened there.


ney said 1.5 million wasn't enough when Wlad was the #1 guy, then took an easy fight for less money


So Larry holmes gets a pass for accepting more money to take on an easier fight vs marvis frazier, yet because james toney does the same thing for more money you critisize him?

[mcvey]

New ring rivavlry Q and Z!,Hope you are in shape Suzie ,Mendoza /Z is known for going the distance without quitting :lol:

[Mendoza]

New ring rivavlry Q and Z!,Hope you are in shape Suzie ,Mendoza /Z is known for going the distance without quitting :lol:

Just like Maricnao and Jeffries. Q is all right. We just disagree on some fundamentals.

[Lobotomy]

What's amazing to me about Jeffries/Sharkey II is that Jeff put Sailor Tom down, inflicted bone breaking damage to Sharkey's left side, and nearly took him out late, with only his right available as an effective weapon. Given two healthy arms, Jeff would have taken him out in a severely one-sided battering. But in this one, Triple J proved conclusively that he was far more than a one dimensional left hook specialist.

The Boilermaker must have come out of the Sharkey rematch possessing incredible confidence in his invincibility while having two healthy weapons to punch with. This makes Corbett's subsequent 23 round performance against Jeff an even more staggering achievement. (Although Gentleman Jim claimed it was a left hook which took him out, both JJJ and referee Charley White stated that it was the same right hand Jeff used to beat Sharkey that kayoed Corbett. If true, this is the major consequence of Jeffries/Sharkey II, that if the Champ's left didn't get you, then the right one would.)

Small wonder that Jeff was the only man in the world Sam Langford went on published record as being afraid of. It says remarkable things about any champion, whenever that champion is so formidable that the top contenders actually duck him, as Langford did Jeff. (Or SRL a prime Hagler. Incidentally, one has to give both Frazier and Patterson massive credit for stepping into the ring a second time with Foreman and Liston. Jimmy Young also got in the squared circle twice with both Shavers and Lyle. Joe, Jimmy and Floyd had to have major balls to accept that kind of risk. And don't forget that it was Floyd himself who decided to give Sonny a title shot in the first place, as Burns did with Jack Johnson, re-establishing the legitimacy of their championships in doing so.)

[SuzieQ49]

Sam Langford claimed it in 1904, when he was a mere 140lb. Jeffries was 220lb. I dont think Langford would have said the same thing in 1912 when he grew to a rock solid 185lb.

[Mendoza]

Sam Langford claimed it in 1904, when he was a mere 140lb. Jeffries was 220lb. I dont think Langford would have said the same thing in 1912 when he grew to a rock solid 185lb.

Sam Langford gave the press his prediction for the 1910 Johnson v Jeffries fight. He said, " I know I can't beat Jeffries, but I think I can beat Johnson. " Langford picked Jeffries to win.

Of Course Langford assumed Jeffries could come back, which of course he did not.

[mcvey]

Sam Langford gave the press his prediction for the 1910 Johnson v Jeffries fight. He said, " I know I can't beat Jeffries, but I think I can beat Johnson. " Langford picked Jeffries to win.

Of Course Langford assumed Jeffries could come back, which of course he did not.
Jeanette picked Jeffries too,and was quite emphatic about it ,I suppose neither Langford or Jeanette owed Jack any Brotherly solidarity,so its not unatural that,they picked against him and of course Jeffries was the first man to retire as unbeaten Heavyweight Champ,up to that time ,there was probably quite an aura associated with him.